10/03/2016 The View

Days of talks abroad as to the point where government cannot be formed.

Code an historic Coalition between Fianna Fail and First Minister --

Fine Gael be on the cards? Is a game of political poker

continues we will hear from both parties. Can a working government

merge and will Irish voters find themselves back in the polling

booths sooner than they might have expected? On the day that the

Stormont Finance Committee published its interim findings on the sale of

the NAMA loan but, we will hear from Mick Wallace who first raised

concerns about the deal in the Dail. They would not have initiated

investigations if all I had to say on the matter was pure speculation.

Also tonight, north of the border with the Assembly election campaign

just weeks away, we ask what price the politics of fear? Sinn Fein will

consider themselves lucky if they come back with the said number of

seats. This is about trying to frighten French unionist voters. As

if that is not enough, I will be joined by George Hook and Irish

Times columnist, Una Mullaly. Hello from Dublin, where politics

is the topic on just The Dail's newly-elected TDs tried

and failed today to put a working government in place -

as had been widely expected - so the question remains: what,

precisely, happens next? We'll hear from representatives

from Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein in just a moment - but first,

what do people on the streets of Dublin make of their politicians'

attempts to form a new government? I set off this morning

to find out... I think Enda Kenny has forgotten

about rural Ireland and as a result of that, he deserves to lose his

position as Taoiseach. How would you feel about the possibility of

another election? Hopefully not. Times are tough but they are getting

better. I hope everything is getting better. What should be dictated by

the rights of the Irish people and that should be paramount. Do you

think it is possible for the parties to work together in a grand

Coalition? I do not think there is any reason why they should not work

together, philosophically there are very similar when you strip back

everything else and it is just an accident of history that there are

two centre parties still here, but from the point of view of Fianna

Fail, they will leave themselves open to a threat of Sinn Fein

having a resurgence of the opposition side. I think they will

struggle to form a strong government, but I think they have no

choice, they have to try their hardest. People want to move

forward. The views of people on the streets

of central Dublin this morning. With me now to talk

through the options on the table are Fianna Fail's Lisa Chambers

and Sinn Fein's Peadar Toibin. We did invite Fine Gael to send

someone to talk to us tonight, but we were told

no-one is available. You're both welcome. Thank you for

joining us. Lisa Chambers, it is your party leader, Micheal Martin

prepared to enter a Coalition with Fine Gael? It is early days. There

seems to be a narrative that it has to be done as quickly as possible

and that is not the case. It is the first day of sitting there we have

time and we need to put the right government together. This Dail

represents an opportunity for change. We have the election for a

Taoiseach and no one was elected. We will be back again in a couple of

weeks and in that period we will be discussing it with other parties.

The only way that the mathematics works, realistically is for the two

biggest parties to form some kind of Coalition, no matter how you look at

it, the other numbers do not stack up. That is not correct, you could

have a minority government. It is not the only option. As much as the

other parties would like to push that to happen, today was day one of

sittings and we have time to discuss it. We are focused on political

reform and the reforms we want to bring through and the reason for

that is if we can bring those through using consensus, before we

concentrate the power in the hands of a few, people do not want that.

They do not want the historic thing of one dominant party overseeing

everything, three hours or more debating legislation. Are you ruling

out a formal Coalition with Fine Gael? I cannot rely about. I am only

one member of the team. How are party works, we have to convene a

special meeting if there is a possibility of a Coalition. If that

opposition is presented, a Coalition with anyone, we would have to hold a

ballot. I do not see our membership voting. I cannot answer on the half

of them or the party, I am one of 18. Peadar Toibin, at the end of the

day, a grand Coalition, is that what will happen? There is a question

available. It is either a Coalition or another election. There is not a

cigarette paper or difference between the parties, there is an

anomaly of history which separates the two. There is a courtship

happening. For many of the members, it would be unseemly for the two

parties to get it together to quickly, they will wait a period of

time before they do that. The problem is, why there is an hiatus

in the chamber, there are a number of crisis is outside the chamber,

hundreds of thousands of people are having their health care delayed

because of the problems in the health service and there are

hundreds of thousands of people looking for a house in this country

and now they are looking at the parties saying that Leinster house

will be closed for the next number of weeks. We need to make sure that

the reality of peoples lives outside the chamber is reflected by the

rhetoric inside the chamber and that is why they need to sort this out

soon. It is also possible for Sinn Fein to play a more proactive and a

more positive role in this because you have ruled out any of working

with Fianna Fail, but if you look at the numbers, it is short of 79 but

if you get some independents you might be able to put together a

workable administration. We would grab government with both hands. You

did not do well at the election. The premise of your first question was

about numbers, but unfortunately, the truth is that there is an

ideological block from us entering a Fianna Fail government. Right from

the start of this stage, there has been a rotation of governments, it

is been either Fianna Fail are Fine Gael and they worry that if they

were to get together, that that would be the end of the process and

that we would change politics in the south and that there would be the

centre-right coalescing as one block and then are left alternative as the

other block and that is the real worry. Fianna Fail and Fine Gael

want to control government and opposition but they cannot have it

both ways. How do you respond to Peadar Toibin when he says there is

not a cigarette paper between the policies of the parties? One of the

paper said you're divided by your similarities. That is one opinion

and I would reject that. If that was the case, the two parties would not

exist. They are different. That is not necessarily to do with policy.

There are major differences, our membership base is different. Our

membership informs our policies. There is still a government in

place. There is not chaos, we have a caretaker government and it will

continue to do its work and any pressing matters will be dealt with

in the chamber. This idea that we need to form a government quickly

because it will fall apart is not correct. There are significant

people like Eamon O Cuiv, here is the grandson of Eamon de Valera and

he has his opinion and might be other members of your party, whose

the people have spoken and the numbers suggest this is what we have

to do and we will have to get on with that because more than anyone

else, the Irish people want stability. The numbers suggest to

myself and others that what people want is a collective government

where everyone has a voice, not just the larger parties, that the smaller

parties play a role. You need enough of the larger parties to make the

figures were. This idea from Sinn Fein, we went

into the election saying they would not go into government unless they

were the largest party and they knew they would not be. They are

absolving themselves from any responsibility. If you care about

the issues, you should say you are open to talking. That is a direct

attack on Sinn Fein. Before the election Micheal Martin said that

Sinn Fein were not ready for government and Fine Gael said the

same thing. There is an ideological chasm between ourselves and Fianna

Fail that cannot be bridged. If we were the largest party and we were

confident we will have our hands on the steering wheel and then possibly

we could take the risk, but we know for a fact in the history of the

state, the smaller parties do not control the ideological direction of

governments and it would be wrong for us, having said to our

electorate that we would not go into government as a junior party. Your

critics say that Sinn Fein is adopting a cynical position, sitting

on the sidelines hoping visit two parties will come together and

praying that the Coalition fails and that further down the line you will

benefit. We are hungry for government, there is no doubt about

that and if there are policies that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael develop,

around water charges, housing and health that are progressive, we will

have no problem in supporting those but today, we asked for Fianna Fail

to support a motion that we would have a debate on Irish water on the

22nd of March and despite Fianna Fail coming to the election saying

that they wanted to get rid of Irish water, they refused us the

opportunity to have a debate. Is the answer another election as soon as

possible? That will arguably clear they are, through the numbers up in

the air and see what comes down. No guarantee would solve the problem

but there is a possibility that is what

you would like? Ideally we would like to be in government, but the

reality is, the people have spoken and they have provided these two

blocks with the necessary figures for government. To throw that back

for another election would not be logical. If it does not work, and

election has to happen. Is that what you are about in Fianna Fail,

squeeze the life out of Enda Kenny and then have another election and

hope that your upward trajectory continues? I do not want another

election but at least we are participating in talks in an attempt

to form a government. To come to the table and say we would not negotiate

on the basis of it does not suit us, which is what Sinn Fein are saying,

that is very destructive and can I clarify in terms of the water issue,

it was not a denial of the debate, there was a set agenda for the next

meeting that was agreed beforehand to try and be effective, we also put

forward proposals that would like to be heard and they were not included

and there will be later and that was the consensus of the entire house.

This idea that we need to control the narrative and agenda, it is

about collaboration, working together.

Stay with me, please - but I want to broaden the discussion

at this stage - and today, Stormont's Finance Committee

published the findings of its investigation into Nama's

It was the Independent TD from Wexford, Mick Wallace,

who first raised the issue in the Dail - and this morning

he agreed to talk to me in his Dublin office...

I raised it at leaders questions nine times in the last eight months.

I have met with nine answers and the Lyall and cover-up. That is from the

Irish government. -- denial. Michael Noonan did not see fit for NAMA to

be placed under scrutiny by the Northern Ireland committee. That

shows a lack of interest in transparency and accountability on

the part of the arid government. The electorate have not forgotten in

Southern Ireland that in 2011, one of the reasons that Fine Gael and

Labour did well was that they promised to do things differently in

manners of governance. Sadly, nothing changed.

made some dramatic claims about the sale of Nama. Do you now concede

that there was no money earmarked for a politician or political party?

I do not concede that. I have insisted all along that I don't have

all the answers but I insist I have a lot of questions that people are

refusing to answer is that the only way we look we will get those

answers is through a truly independent commission of enquiry.

But should be stocked with some people from outside the country will

stop Ireland is a very small island. There... Many aspects of how we do

business, we need and in truly independent enquiry. People no

longer believe what Nama say. They no longer believe the manner in

which the Government as defended them. You have produced no evidence,

no hard evidence to prove that anyone in particular was involved in

any kind of corrupt practice. We are short of paper proof. We understand

what has happened. Unfortunately at the moment there are too many of the

players involved who have a vested interest in staying quiet. Paper

proof is evidence. Yes and there is people who have it, but I don't have

it in my possession. I have seen enough to note that all is not well.

I do not claim to have all the answers but there are serious

questions to be asked and we have huge problems. The National Crime

Agency in Britain and the securities and exchange in New York would not

have initiated investigations if all I had to say on the matter was pure

speculation. Can we now expect further revelations from you in the

Dail naming names of people you believe were involved in corrupt

practice? Yes. There is not a week goes by where more jigsaw pieces

don't fall into place. We don't have the full picture yet but we are

getting there. We are putting pressure on some people to put their

names to their claims. We do need people who have a financial interest

in staying silent. We need to smoke them out and put pressure on them to

tell the truth. We need to be -- bring some transparency and

accountability to the full working of Nama and the business sector

north and south of the border. You mentioned that the US authorities

are investigating and you're pleased with the way those investigations

are continuing. Are you also confident that the UK's National

Crime Agency will get to the bottom of what is going on? Only yesterday

I met the National Crime Agency here again, for the second time. I have

no reason to believe that they are not taking it seriously. I will be

very interested in seeing what they come up with. I believe they are

making progress. I am not for a second presuming that the National

Crime Agency are not going to do a good job. I am hopeful that they

will, but we oversee have to wait and see. Just finally, are you

saying today as the 32nd Dail meets for the first time in Leinster house

just beside where we are sitting this morning, that you are as

committed as you ever were to trying to get to the bottom of what

happened and to ensuring that those who are responsible in any kind of

vile in the sale of this loan book are brought to book by what they

did? If the new government does not initiate a truly independent

commission of enquiry then no one should believe another word out of

them. The majority, Fianna Fail called for an enquiry, Sinn Fein

called for an enquiry, the majority of independence called for an

enquiry. The only ones in the last government who didn't want an

enquiry or so they said were Fine Gael and labour. There would not be

a new government without some of the people who were looking for an

enquiry and if they do not initiate an enquiry, then they have no

credibility. Lisa Chambers, if any new government has credibility he

says they need to take on this Nama issue, will a proper enquiry into

gnome into Nama be a condition to any deal with Fine Gael? Fianna Fail

are calling for an independent commission because there are answers

-- questions to be answered. Eh? Will forever hang over this if we do

not investigate and if we have allegations of this nature, if there

is a suggest and the taxpayer is not compensated or if there is any wrong

doing, if any advisers, this needs to be investigated. It is

disappointing that Nama did not cooperate with Stormer. We have at

the moment is a partial investigation. It started south of

the border and Nama is within the jurisdiction. If we don't

investigate we can never be quite sure what happened and I think

deputy Wallace raises some worrying points. Peadar Toibin, is it's not

the case that your party took its eye off the ball, where was Sinn

Fein on this? Through the whole process, we had a situation where

information was alleged to come from the office of Peter Robinson and

others and were not being countersigned by automating is at

the time. There are clearly wasn't -- Martin McGuinness. That clearly

wasn't the joint Executive procedures that would normally

happen. That is disputed. Yes, I appreciate this. In this state we

have suffered from insiders and outsiders for many years. The bank

bailout for example would be insiders, was a problem here where

Irish assets were being sold to insiders as well. Now we have Nama,

where hundreds of millions... It is nothing to do with the DUP, I am

talking about Sinn Fein, they took their eye off the ball. A sale of

the Nama loan book went ahead and Sinn Fein was not paying attention.

That is untrue. That is what your critics say. If you listen to

members of Sinn Fein, you will see that we have spent the latter number

of months very focused on a forensic fashion in trying to bring Michael

Noonan... His refusal as Mr Fevre financed to make sure Obama stops

the full -- Nama. His decision to forge ahead with the new sale to

Cerberus is a disgraceful decision and the fact that now he won't go in

front of the Finance Committee in the north, the fact that he will

have an investigation by the FBI by the security and exchange committee,

the ANCA, keep Finance Committee in the North yet in the South or they

will say is if you have any ideas bring them to the committee and

maybe... I want a yes or no answer, Michael Wallace wants to clear a

fully independent investigation into the Nama sale, you would support

that? We put it on the table today that it should be one of the first

things discussed, this government reviews did today. And that is

non-negotiable? It is an accurate reflection -- inaccurate reflection

but that is a different discussion, you put forward motions, so did we,

they were not taken today for procedural reasons. In future you

want to see that? We have called for this. Thank you very much, both of

you. Well from a place where they can't

form a voluntary coalition to a place where coalition

is mandatory - Northern Ireland, The First Minister, Arlene Foster,

reacted angrily this week when she was accused of playing

the politics of fear. She'd suggested that unionists

should throw their support behind the DUP to ensure Martin McGuinness

doesn't become First Minister. In reply, Mr McGuinness told this

programme he isn't concerned about the issue -

as our Political Correspondent, Mrs Arlene Foster, the First

Minister. Last January Stormer got a new First Minister and maybe a new

spirit of togetherness as well. I will do all that I can to change the

political culture of this place but I cannot change it alone we can only

do it by working together. Many people have said to me, how will you

work with Arlene Foster? I said, if you can work with Ian Paisley and

Peter Robinson, you can work with anybody...

One can wish upon a star, who can make the wish come true... Since the

St Andrews agreement, the largest party of the largest designation,

unionist or nationalist, provides the First Minister, but it is

largely symbolic, in reality the positions are equal. But these

symbols matter, especially to unionists. The issue re-emerged at

the weekend when Arlene Foster told her party, make no mistake, this

election is very close. A swing of only two builds of every hundred to

Sinn Fein would see Martin McGuinness becoming next First

Minister. She added, that would be bad for unionism and bad for

Northern Ireland. But when this political... Called it the politics

of fear he got an unexpected response. A number of people have

been giving their impressions. She came back and asked had anybody

heard the full speech? They said no. She seemed exasperated we were

talking about the commentary on her speech. I'm surprised at the time

she took, I am surprised that she replied. The First Minister in a

public space that bad, but she would actually use that kind of emotion.

Last week as she unveiled a new mural in East Belfast, she still

steamed defensive. Martin McGuinness was the first person talking about

the largest party, then Mike Nesbitt, but when I raised the

issue, all of a sudden it is a huge story. Pointing out the reality of

the situation is not a huge story. I went on to talk about Wi-Fi

priorities and I am disappointed no one is talking about that but that

is politics. If the worst kinky past and they became the largest party,

she faint, what with the DUP do? We're not planning for that. We are

planning for a continuing the good work that we started. But what if it

happened? I do very much... This observer says Sinn Fein are in no

position to challenge just yet. It is not credible to suggest Sinn Fein

are on the verge of overtaking the DUP. We know that their vote in the

North has told. They did not have a good Westminster election last year.

In North Belfast they are only running two candidates. In Fermanagh

and South Tyrone they made a bit of a mess of it. In West Belfast...

They... Sinn Fein will consider themselves lucky if they come back

with the same number of seats. It is about trying to frighten fringe

unionist voters who are sitting on the fence between the UUP and the

DUP, trying to persuade them to stick with the DUP. So what do other

unionists make that? It is disappointing. It might also be

presumed arrogant to assume that it has to be her or Martin McGuinness.

It is the same old, same old and this project fear. We won't be

playing that game and don't think the public are interested. They

understand that the DUP and Sinn Fein are in bed together by their

own choice and do they care who sleeps on the left or the right?

They are interested on a Deputy First Minister and First Minister

who delivers results. Martin McGuinness could hardly seem less

concerned. I am very philosophical about how elections are flawed.

Everybody will find their own corner and everybody wants to be the

largest party. Sinn Fein is no different but I am on the public

record as saying if we did become the largest party I would offer to

the DUP that we change the title is from First Minister, Deputy First

Minister to joint Falls should leave it at that.

# It takes to, baby, to make a dream come true... Back to the coalition

building. We felt duty bound to find a panel that packs a punch. I am

George Hook, Irish Times columnist Una Mullaly and academic Claire

McGing. Nice to have you on board. A grand coalition, Una Mullaly, is it

a workable option? One of the weird things at the moment, the

speculation is just that. No one knows what is going on. No one in

the party know where things stand at the moment. The other option would

be a minority Fine Gael government which would probably Peter along for

a short while and inevitably end up in another election in 12 months or

something like that. It is really hard to know and ideological it Fine

Gael and Fianna Fail are extraordinarily similar. It would

benefit Sinn Fein as leaders of the opposition but it is a weird limbo

situation that I think even the parties themselves are still trying

to get their heads around. I think any speculation or guessing really

is just that at this stage. In the future maybe things will be clearer.

Politicians just parrot what the spin doctors told them to say. They

are not dealing with the issue. At least you have three independent

people looking at the issue. The first thing about this is that it is

definitely one respect and very important respect, for the first

time in the history of Ireland we have left and right divide. We have

people who represent the have-nots and we have people who represent the

house. The people who represent perhaps our Fianna Fail and Fine

Gael with 93 seats between them, if they have a Coalition, the

government will last for five years. These politicians parrot and it

drives me insane, we want to do what is right for the country and we want

to do what is right for the people, what they want to do is play

politics. The reason Fianna Fail does not want to go into core

mission is that they are afraid of Sinn Fein being the most powerful

party in the Coalition -- in opposition. Sinn Fein will not go

into Coalition with anyone, why would you go into Coalition with

someone who has a zombie economic policy that would implode within

months? Therefore, all they are all doing, Enda and Fine Gael would

happily go in to Coalition with the loony party if he got to be

Taoiseach. What you have at the moment is pure political chicanery,

the two centre parties get together and give us a stable government, I

do not believe a word of this claptrap about on the doorsteps,

people told us that they wanted Dail raw form. They said we want

homelessness fixed. We want more money in our pockets, we want to

know what will happen to all these major issues that affect our lives.

Does that mean that after the shadow boxing is over, some kind of deal

will be put together? The numbers are there. Between the two then they

have 94 seats, but there is an issue that the media is dissed regarding

and that is the fact that any deal between the parties will have to go

to the Fianna Fail membership. There is still guarantee that unless

Fianna Fail were able to get a very good deed and an equal partnership.

It's science like Enda is offering a good deal, a rotating Taoiseach

position, a 50 slash 50 split of Cabinet positions. Fianna Fail may

be traditional on this. We have moved on from Civil War politics but

in some respects, those politics remain and there is no guarantee

that grassroots membership will go for this anyway. The other option

mooted is the idea of a Fine Gael minority backed by Fianna Fail which

would give Fianna Fail immense power, as soon as their opinion or

support takes, they can go like that. It is very hard to know what

territory we are in. I think you are right. It is often that the Times

most like each other find the most links to fight about and I think

that is what we are seeing. In terms of rotating Taoiseach, I do not

think that would happen. I do not see the leaders of the parties

wanting to share that of power, or give up that power, if the numbers

are there and if the media want it and if people want that, it does not

matter when these parties really do not like each other. That is what it

comes down to. The Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fail, the

leader is absolutely hated the sight of each other and back government

worked. This idea... They are tiny party, you're not talking about the

big dogs. In the Irish Times, they said it was like watching two rhinos

trying to mate. It is an ugly getting together of something. The

word different, a small party versus the two big ones, the optics in

terms of the centenary, finally these two parties come together,

they talk about people wanting a stable government, yes they do but

they do not necessarily want a Fianna Fail and Fine Gael

government. I do not think Irish people want a government backed

Conservative. They are absolutely do, more than 50% of the people

voted for it! Huge chunk of the parish electorate have abandoned the

party system and that is why the independents have done so well --

Parish electorate. Obviously Labour have been decimated and the Green

Party -- Irish. If they were existing TDs, they would have been

elected if they stood as independence, they covered

themselves with the figleaf of social democracy. They were a new

party they got three seats. We will not resolve that issue and there is

a lot of spectating to be done over the next few weeks. I want a word

with Claire McGing about quotas, you have written about this and you

think they are significant. For our audience, very quickly, talk us

through what happened and why you think it was so important. In 2012,

the Fine Gael Coalition had to run at least 30% women or men candidates

or lose state funding and that is what we were dealing with. The

outgoing Dail had 27 women TDs, the new Dail had 35 women TDs, 22%, that

is a significant increase in one election. There are other factors

besides quotas, there has been training for women candidates, and

national conversation around bringing in more women but they seem

to have worked. Is there a lesson in this for Northern Ireland? There is.

I do not think the quota will be something in the North in the near

future but I think there is scope for parties to implement similar

measures on a voluntary basis. Quick word in just a second but we have

had a statement in from NAMA after that interview with Nick Wallis and

I want to bring it to people watching at home, a spokesperson

said that NAMA is accountable to the rafters. Any claims to the contrary

are entirely without foundation and the spokesperson said that in a

statement to the PAC which addressed previous claims that the chairman

referred to them as a serious misrepresentation of the facts,

utterly disingenuous, stretching credulity, implausible and totally

unrealistic. A quick word about NAMA, Mick Wallace said there should

be an independent investigation, will that happen? Perhaps. I think

it probably should happen. Whatever the answers are, Mick Wallace is

right to ask questions. At the very least, there is a perceived lack of

transparency from the public perspective. Nonsense interview. You

are asked him what evidence have you got, he said none. The rest of the

interview was irrelevant. Interestingly, the Sinn Fein TD said

that it was disgraceful that the PAC chairman said that.

That's it from The View for this week.

Join me for coverage of the SDLP conference on Saturday evening at 8

o'clock on BBC2 - and Sunday Politics is at 11.35

But we leave you with a look at some of the highlights of today

and a little reflection from the past.

There is all with a great buzz on the first day of term. -- always.

The great thing to remember when voting in Ireland is get there

early, otherwise you will probably find that some another's voted in

your name. Who would want or expect it to be different.

and I'm the health correspondent for BBC News NI.

In a week, I can cover a whole range of stories -