26/05/2016 The View

Two parties dedicated to working together

amid claims of a more thoughtful brand of politics.

Will the new Executive - and a fledgling formal

opposition at Stormont - dramatically alter

Or will the old divisive issues re-emerge to derail the partnership?

So will there be "a completely new way of doing politics here",

Tonight we'll hear from two new Executive Ministers,

the two parties in the official opposition, and we'll ask what now

Also, the Euros and the EU referendum - one way or another it's

But could the football affect the result of the big vote?

We would probably think they are more sympathetic to the cause than

most, and want to get them on board. Northern Ireland fans enjoy the

benefits we get when we go to Europe.

And in the football-top-free zone that is Commentators' Corner,

we'll hear the thoughts of Professors Deirdre Heenan

They said they would do it, and today the new two-party -

plus Claire Sugden - Executive held its first

It only lasted 20 minutes, but those present did manage

to agree on a draft framework for the Programme for Government.

So is this the start of a dramatic change

Joining me now are the new Education Minister,

and the Sinn Fein Finance Minister, Mairtin O Muilleoir.

And here to reflect the view from the opposition benches

are Philip Smith from the Ulster Unionist Party,

and from our Foyle studio, Daniel McCrossan from the SDLP.

You are all very welcome to the programme. Mairtin O Muilleoir,

first of all, you said you will not be Stormont's Minister for cuts.

What are you going to be Minister for precisely? Revenue raising? We

have not had one complete day yet in Government, and some are reaching

for the lifeboats. What I am saying and I said just a day when I was

appointed, I will be the Minister for investment, jobs, who lists

people out of poverty and widens access to education. I am a newbie

at the table. I thought there was an abundance of talent at the table,

who differ on the cause additional question but who are united around

the mission of trying to improve the quality of life for people here. I

will be a Minister for all the people, who says about his task with

a figure, but also in a way to bring people in. One of the first things I

did my way into Stormont was to meet with community leaders who are

making a difference. What was the message I got? The same as I got on

the doorsteps before the election. Will you please unite around the

issues that are important to us, jobs, creating hope and providing

people with homes. Some people might think that is all a bit fluffy. In

terms of policy... No, no, let me just say, I will not accept that. I

was at the homeless centre and Roseville house today at noon, and

homeless families who desperately need refund. We want to build 10

million houses -- 10,000 houses. I was on the ground today, and I am

not the Economy Minister, but I want to be the hub which provide the

money. You are the man who controls the purse strings. Are we going to

see what charges, university fees going up, domestic rates capped

raised or abolished altogether? Sinn Fein has a position on a number of

issues that are important to us, including that everybody should pay

their way in terms of household rates. So you would like to change

that situation? That is in our manifesto. We need to find a way to

the challenges ahead, make sure we have the money to invest in

particular in further education and health, but also make sure if there

is wastage in the system to cut that. If there are people you are

paid more than is correct, we need to tackle that as well. I think

people at home want to know if you're going to be raising revenue

or if you're going to be borrowing more money. I gather you have been

in touch with your counterpart at the Treasury in London and you want

to borrow more money? We are not going to impose water charges. But

you will raise rates? It has been in our manifesto for a while now, we

will not raise rates. There is a cap. But some people's rates will be

raised. Peter Weir, do you agree with that? We are thinking about

round the edges, because I think what you're talking about in terms

of money is relatively small. We are Executive focused upon delivery of

the key issues of health, the economy, and trying to ensure that

education and that people... Households are not squeezed. There

has been an officer at a imposed, because of the national situation at

the moment. -- there has been enough austerity imposed. All of us are

trying to deliver on a tough and tight budget, but I think we are

united in a desire to deliver for people. That is what people voted

for in this election. But the point there are clear differences in

manifesto terms and some these issues. There is an element where

I'm sure media commentators will try to pick apart the differences. There

will clearly be differences between us and Sinn Fein. There will be

differences between all the parties. The point of the coalition is trying

to work together to deliver a range of the issues to the best of our

ability, and I think there is a clear determination to do that. Will

you be happy with what you are given by Mairtin O Muilleoir, or will you

be lobbying him saying, education is very important? Education is very

important, and I think all ministers will fight for their departments.

Part of the old demarcation lines between departments, I think there

is a clear desire across the Executive to work to deliver

together. Some will have to be joined up solutions that go beyond a

single department, and that is why for instance, whenever the programme

for Government framework is published, we will be looking at

outcomes, not how it impacts on an individual departments but what

delivery people want to see on the ground on the key issues. How much

do you want to borrow from wandering? Can be clear that up? --

from London. I have asked for an urgent meeting. There are two big

discussions with abundant, and I think the DUP would agree with us.

One is we do not have enough flexibility. Belfast City Council

can borrow more money to invest. How much money do you want to borrow? I

don't know how much we need to borrow. You are in the Finance

Minister you must know. It is the first days. I want the power to

borrow money. And to invest in new homes. I would love to add it as a

priority for me to expand campus. The last time we borrow money at was

700 million for voluntary redundancies. Is that something you

would borrow money for again? We didn't actually borrow 700 million.

I think you missed the point, because it is not the quantity, it

is the ability. It is to remove the shackles of London on our ability to

make decisions. So you don't know the amount yet. What would you want

to spend it on? You're missing the point. It is not the amount. I've

accepted you don't know the amount, but what is it for? It is impossible

to know how much. I am seeing two things -- saying two things. We need

the right as an Executive to borrow money, and London should not be able

to prevent us from doing that. The second argument is the austerity

budget, cutting the block grant, keeping maximum pain on the power,

is not helping the economy. Are you happy with that strategy, removing

the shackles to be able to borrow, even if he is not clear exactly how

much? I think we want to ensure that whatever resources we have got we

get the best bang for our box. -- the best for our money. In terms of

the details of how we approach it, the Executive would have to work it

out collectively. The Finance Minister has just told us he has

been in touch with the Chief Secretary of the Treasury to talk

about this. You should be able tell me that is

about this. You should be able tell will make whatever enquiries need to

be made. It is about trying to deliver for the people of Northern

Ireland. I think I do beg your pardon where there are any level of

differences, there will clearly be differences... I am just wondering

if the Finance Minister has gone for a full run. We will all be finding

out information from a range of sources. The finance ministers

finding out the position in London. But to be absolutely clear, you are

comfortable... I'm comfortable to scope out what the position is. The

Executive across the budget will have to make key decisions. Whatever

arrangements are made we will be in a position which is undoubtedly

tough financial positions to be made. We have to make sure we get

the past delay my best possible delivery for the people of Northern

Ireland. And you happy for Mairtin O Muilleoir to be in a position to

make those decisions? It is not that long ago that Arlene Foster and

other members of your party remained as I gatekeeper to make sure that

Sinn Fein and SDLP ministers did not take action to damage Northern

Ireland. You can try and provoke arguments here tonight. With respect

we were in a different situation eight months ago. Our party got over

200,000 votes. There is a clear desire among the people... You got

the same number of votes last time. The people have clearly expressed in

terms of a mandate for the parties to provide clear Government for

Northern Ireland and delivery for Northern Ireland. You can pick apart

what has happened in the past,... Why do people want to work together

less time but not five years ago? -- this time. It may not suit some

people's agenda or the media's agenda at times, but what we want to

see... If what happened five years ago was right, then no one is right.

Or if now is right, then what happened five years ago is wrong. --

then now is right. Let's focus on the activity and ensure that when we

go out tomorrow with the framework for the programme for Government

that we have a full engagement with the people of Northern Ireland, we

take people along and try to deliver. There are issues that

divide you. Why don't we call it a fresh start and focus on the things

we agree on? We could spend all night... The point is that you

obviously want to sell it as a new period of politics where peace and

harmony has broken out, and it is worth making the point that thing is

that where a big issues for you three weeks ago, eight months ago

and five years ago, that is the point. There will always be

important differences in politics. You said it would be catastrophic to

continue to divide our children at the age of 11. He takes a different

view. We are going to take our time, not rush, focus on delivery. You

have picked out for in the selection. We have both made our

position is very clear. I find it interesting there are a range of

issues in education, I have been involved for a while, where there

will be a common approach and purpose. The focus purely on what

happens at transfer ignores major problems in education, how we raise

academic standards, ensuring vocational qualifications are given

their full merit, tackling educational underachievement,

focusing on earlier That might be a difficult

conversation. In one sense for everyone because I do not think

everyone wants to see large numbers of closures. There will be drivers

that we will need to look at. We need to take that in a mature way

and a way that ensures that all sectors move forward and are treated

equally to ensure... The most crucial thing in terms of education

is ensuring we get opportunity for all our children and getting the

best possible delivery on education for that. It means there will be

difficult conversations, conversations were it will be

difficult for all of us. For you as well, top performing schools. Your

unity will be tested? There will be challenges ahead, but I thought the

tone today was workmanlike, committed to our community. I sensed

a real willingness around the table, people with different opinions, to

try and have a fresh start and do what Arlene Foster said which was

hurt -- plays a greater premium on conflict. Will there be collective

responsibility? I will not take a decision to borrow money without

bringing it to everyone at the table. You begun that conversation.

I think most people are on Twitter and they know what happened. I spoke

to church leaders and I want them to go with me to the Chancellor to

raise their voice against austerity. I will not be doing anything without

the collective will of the executive and Cabinet. What about other

issues? What about issues like equal marriage, abortion, corporation tax

and the Irish language act. When the past 24 hours, Simon Hamilton said

there would not be won. There is another issue which you are not

singing from the same hymn sheet. There will be a 32-macro. Not

according to Simon Hamilton. -- Irish language act. I was in the

heart of the Empire, the Newtownards road. I do not believe there will

be. You can pick out a range of issues. You seem to think you have

been vindicated. You can put out a range of issues on which there will

be disagreements. On that basis, they are well-known, there are are

some issues on which there will be a disagreement. Here is my point, you

both say you have a mandate to work together, you both received large

votes from your relatives supporters, but there are clearly

issues on which you and they fundamentally disagree on and I

wonder how that circle is squared because there may be some common

ground that there are clearly issues... You are unlikely to agree.

There will be. Some fundamental differences. With the greatest of

respect, if they were not, we would essentially be a 1-party state. The

essence after Marcus E is about competing for ideas on that basis

and where there is an opportunity for delivery on that, that means on

some issues we will not reach agreement, but a large number of

them and the issues which are of key importance, we will be able to reach

agreement and have delivery. We will see an executive with collective

response ability. Thank you. I want to bring politicians in who set on

the other side of the house. Philip Smith, we have the two main parties

and a lot of people will be giving them credit and say they are trying

to develop a new kind of politics in Northern Ireland. You have a stark

choice, you either support them constructively in tried to move the

place forward or you run the risk of sounding relentlessly negative,

which will it be? I am shocked at what I have heard. We already have

as a region, higher per capita debt than Scotland and I now discover

that we are going to try and increase that debt to fill a hole in

finances. Our role as an opposition will be to be constructive,

supportive words that support is able to be given, but also to hold

these guys to account. We have a framework programme for government

being launched tomorrow and I will be looking to see, Peter talked

about delivery and so did the First Minister, we will be looking to see

where the delivery is, particularly on health, the Department that no

one wanted and also in education, which Peter now has to deal with and

talking to head teachers, they have a 6% gap in their budgets and they

are talking about laying off teachers and increasing class sizes

and that is unacceptable. Daniel McCrossan, do you seek despite the

differences between the two main parties in the executive or do you

offer constructive criticism? First of all, I think sitting here

listening to Peter Wear and Mairtin O Muilleoir, they should take up

poker, I cannot believe they have straight faces. Only a few short

months ago, the DUP almost tore down the institutions because they

refused Roca and renegade ministers as described by the First

Minister... You heard them both say, this is you politics. I can safely

say they are fooling no one, the honeymoon period is only starting

but it will not last, people are aware that this will not last. It is

clear to be seen, and 36 -- Mairtin O Muilleoir has highlighted about

this territory, we may have other sturdy government, but the reality

is that there is an austerity government in Northern Ireland. They

are implementing these cuts, that is the worry that the SDLP have and

that is what they will be highlighting over the next number of

months and indeed in this mandate. Daniel McCrossan said he cannot

believe what you said with a straight face. How would he build

10,000 new homes, how would you find that? I can tell you this, you most

certainly have not delivered in the past and you will not deliver now. I

am looking at joint manifesto and it is a joint manifesto, you're talking

about ?1 billion on health, where all that come from? You said

yesterday, you almost went in reverse, you almost said in one

breath he would not be lamenting... I will you do it? You were then

saying that you were in heated by the austerity... Let him speak. I

will reply to the gentleman over there, you can borrow, the housing

associations here are crying out for the right to borrow money and pay

back through the rounds. If you do not understand that, you need to

spend more time in the assembly. The message I have to all opposition

parties is tell us how you would do it differently? David Ford, to be

fair to Peter and Mairtin O Muilleoir, they have 61% of the

seats in the assembly, people have backed them to get all of it, it is

difficult for you to oppose them, without sounding churlish. I think

there was a danger that was shown when Mike Nesbit did sound churlish,

I specifically did not, I recognise the job that was ahead and I made it

clear that we would judge on delivery and not on an agenda. You

still thought there was a mistake. I think that an Alliance minister

could have delivered better because it would have seen significant

reforms in the way government works which would have seen commitments to

make the other line better but I accept that the DUP and Sinn Fein

have a working majority and they chose to not accept our proposals

and they now have to show they can deliver and I remember five years

ago were we heard other promises from the executive Abbott working to

build the economy and we did not see a great deal of that and maybe this

will be better and we will see the kind of stand-off that we saw which

was sometimes around doing down other parties, a lot of the time

they ran the issues and there are really does need to be a much more

constructive way of working together, the kind of promises they

are making need to be delivered in reality if they are going to make

the changes. The danger for the parties in the opposition and your

party will take the lead, is that if they make a half decent fist of it,

you are sitting with no teeth. Trying to fight against something,

like trying to nail jelly to the wall, because if they are

successful, people may give them the benefit of the doubt! I hope they

are. You're in opposition. We all live here. If they are successful,

it is the end of your party! Experience to date of previous years

show it is not the case, they have spent years at kicking the can down

the road... You're also in the government! For our part of that.

For most of that. We were starved of resources and put on the edge of the

executive. The reality is we have an opposition and Mairtin O Muilleoir

can shake his head... You can patronise me. You are part of the

Tory agenda. Get used to it. You partnered the Tory government in

this agenda, so do not lecture people. You the one who is

patronising. People are untitled to hold us to account. I have to say, I

did not like the tone of Mike Nesbit, I think it was quite

sneering towards their sudden. Particularly from Philip Spence, we

have a lot of opposition, I have not heard anything that is constructive.

If all we are going to get for the next five years is everything we do

is terrible in that regard without any... You have said you're just

getting your feet under the table. Daniel McCartan on. I look forward

to seeing some constructive opposition. How will you demonstrate

constructive opposition. You're entitled to oppose, do it

constructively. Every single person in Northern Ireland knows full well

that the executive has failed to deliver. It was not working,

therefore the SDLP, the UUP have walked away to provide an

alternative and it is about that alternative and we will lay down a

clear platform. What is clear and you can sit around and you can say

what ever bluff tactics you like, but this honeymoon period and will

not last, people have seen... I see with yourself and the UUP, both of

you have the worst result in your entire history in that regard and I

think there are times a certain level of contempt for the

intelligence of the Northern Ireland people and I do not see where the

evidence... David Ford. If you both speak at the same time, I cannot

hear you. It is difficult for the UUP and SDLP to oppose and they are

trying to find their feet. It is even more difficult for Alliance.

You had to ministers in the last executive, you're now potentially

heading for political oblivion. If we were, then we were in oblivion

from 1998 until 2010. We did not quite make the numbers that

qualified for a minister this time, but we put forward solid

proposals, we made it clear on the basis of what we will judge the

executive and we will take forward our views on building a united

community and growing the economy and we will put them before the

people... We have to take the opposition views on board and we

will do that. I look forward to taking forward our proposals. We are

not closing strand Mallusk college. A very interesting debate around the

table. The Euros and the EU referendum -

one way or another it's But could the football affect

the result of the big vote? Maybe that idea's not as crazy

as you might think - because there are those who argue

it's happened before. Gareth Gordon's been

examining the theory... Next month, the fate of the nation,

rather several, will be decided by a battle for the control of Europe.

And then there is the EU referendum. It together with the Euros and

things could get messy. No one would let the result of a football match

decide what way they are going to vote on such an important issue.

With the? Events of 1970 would suggest otherwise. Harold Wilson's

Labour Party was expected to win the general election, but with four days

to go, England were knocked out of the World Cup I West Germany. The

Conservatives came from behind to win. The Queen has asked me to form

the next Government. Some of the thinking is that it is national

prestige that has gone down, and there is this instinct in all of us

to blame the Government. You had an incumbent Labour Government, people

were feeling good, that England were doing well. Then they lose the game

and out of the tournament. National prestige sufferers and then people

turn on the Government, and people think, maybe we will just change our

Government as well. This time David Cameron will not cover the same

fate. The matter won't have happened by the time of the referendum. --

the match. But what about Northern Ireland? The Leave campaign will be

handing out these fires at the final game against France. -- these fires.

We want to make sure that people vote Right. Do you have any idea

which way they are likely to vote? The important thing is making sure

they do vote. We have to make sure that they bought Leave. We would

think they are more sympathetic to the cause than most. But this France

back to Leigh bound Northern Ireland fan begs to differ. What I can see

is that from going away to Northern Ireland matches two years,

travelling to Europe, fans enjoy the benefits they get from Europe, the

hospitality they get from other fans in other countries. There is a sense

of family. The one thing that memory share, civil fans included, is in

the Martian overlords. -- that many share, football fans included, is

information overload. For people who are undecided, how the match goes, a

dodgy call by referee, that could be the fact that pushes them either

way. How about this for a bright example of a leading businessman

willing to come out in favour of leaving the EU? We have been given

some very difficult argument to swallow and they headlines. In

business you look at costs and waste, growth potential. The EU has

not been drawing since 2008. It is a bit of a gravy train. We have 750

MEPs, a Parliament that moves from Strasbourg and back to Brussels

every six months at a cost of 120 million. These are the kind of

numbers that really frustrate you when you know how difficult it is to

make money when you are trying to do some business. Not so, says a former

head of the European Commission office in Belfast. I cannot believe

what you are being told about the European Union, and I think that is

so unfair. It's not anti-democratic. If it was anti-democratic, why do we

bought every five years for members of the European Parliament? But

returning to our football team, how about this for a game of two hands.

An event featuring somebody's son is possibly the most famous Brexit

campaigner of all. Speaking personally, what I would like to see

is Boris and gold, to this -- and Michael Gove to come out of this...

And narrow victory for us would be good so that the other side is not

humiliated. As pre-match for transport, it sounds optimistic. By

the time the stadium is completed, the UK's European future will have

been resolved one way or another. A bit like the team which normally

place here. -- that normally plays year.

Gareth Gordon on his two favourite pet subjects -

Let's hear what our commentators have to say about a hugely

Deidre, first of all, what did you make of the mood music from Mairtin

O Muilleoir and Peter Weir? I suppose we had the sweet smell of

harmony. They were working together, a fresh start. Did they persuade

your? I think as you scratch the surface, only very slightly, you see

fundamental differences over the Irish language act, academic

selection, fiscal policies. One wants to borrow more money, the

other is clearly uncomfortable with that. I just cannot see how they are

going to keep this together. Of course we want to see them working

together, but the question has to be, what has changed since five

years ago when they couldn't work together? When they were

fundamentally polar opposites? What has changed other than the

realisation now that there are only two of them sitting there, and what

has been said time and time again is, this is about delivering. No

more excuses. That is the key word. It was used by just about everyone.

In fact Sinn Fein has got a particular problem, because one of

the persistent criticisms is their failure to deliver over the past

five years. Now they have a Health Minister and the Infrastructure

Minister, they have a potential on paper at least in the Finance

Minister and ally. The pressure on them to deliver on improving waiting

lists, GPs, doctors, midwives, is enormous. They have got to start

delivering. To begin with I suppose the mood music is, love is in the

air. It looks like a civil partnership rather than an uncivil

one to begin with. Certainly one can take away areas they will find it

very difficult to accommodate one another. I suspect what might happen

is they will part the gritty issues they cannot agree on and try to work

on those areas of common ground. If you look as well, the DUP have a

marriage with a very strong hand, particularly the Department of

economy. -- have emerged with a very strong hand. They can be standing at

the bottom of the steps was good news stories, and that is clever for

them. The Department of Finance we have already heard referred to as

the Department of cuts. We are in a period of austerity. More cuts are

coming, there is no more money. We need some plans, not again to say we

will just go to George Osborne and ask for more money. And if he does,

Alan wish all the best... Years quixotic, he is not win to do that.

Those means I'm not -- these means are going to get shorter and

shorter. Sinn Fein to some extent are a bit more muscular in that they

have a lease indicated areas they would like to raise revenue. The DUP

is quite silent on that. I think that was telling in their

conversation. Just want to ASCII about opposition. Mairtin O

Muilleoir said the Wellcome the fact there is and they will listen to

what they have to say, but as long as it is constructive. Can there be

an opposition that reads those party stronger in five years to? I think

to make it work, whatever that means, opposition 's work when they

stir up dissent amongst the backbenchers. There is no backbench

dissent in the Assembly. They are all party animals who will cleave to

the whip. The one thing that will help is if the UUP and the SDLP Qual

less. -- coalesce. The key point is that opposition is not just

opposition for the sake of it. They have to have coherence and make

themselves relevant. These parties are going in from a position where

they did not do well on the election, so this is their

opportunity to say, we are relevant, we are holding these people to the

account, and we have got some very good ideas. Interesting to hear your

thoughts. Interesting week in politics.

That's it from The View for this week.

There's no Sunday Politics this weekend - but Stormont Today will be

back at the usual time on Tuesday night on BBC2.

And we leave you tonight with a last look at the Assembly's 'independent

woman' who's now taken her seat at the top table.

New MLA was formally welcomed to the Assembly today. This is a clear

Sugden. This house of cards is falling, and the only thing that

will help the jokers at the top, falling down. She is somebody who we

think has the skills and ability to be a minister. I think all this talk

about clear Sugden and the Greens is a sideshow. That is ludicrous. --

Claire Sugden. Clear has agreed to be the new Justice Minister. We have

every confidence in her ability.