02/06/2016 The View

In three weeks' time it'll all be over, and voters across the UK

will have made the choice to remain within the European Union

But until then, the arguments continue, and tonight on The View

a campaigner and comedian takes on the DUP in the battle

Tonight: the Remain camp's Eddie Izzard sells what he says

are the "tremendous advantages" of staying in Europe.

And in the Leave corner, Sammy Wilson hits back with his view

on why getting out can only be good for Northern Ireland.

Also tonight: the new Education Minister reaffirms his commitment

to academic selection, while his party leader,

Arlene Foster, calls for a new single transfer test to be

De Vos take two years, that would be too tight a schedule, I would say at

least, and I stress the at least, three years.

And fresh from her foray into electoral politics,

Lesley Carroll joins Chris Donnelly in Commentators' Corner.

Voting in the EU referendum happens three weeks today and if you haven't

already registered to vote, you've only got five days left

The comedian, actor and Remain campaigner Eddie Izzard is currently

on a whistle-stop tour of 31 cities in the countdown to June 23rd -

Belfast is city number 12 in his itinerary.

He wants to persuade as many people as he can across the country

to register, and to vote to stay in the EU.

Hoping to knock him off course, in this part of the world at least,

is the DUP MP, Sammy Wilson, who's a prominent member

Welcome to you both. Eddie Izzard, you're halfway through this tour to

persuade people to vote to remain. Why undertake a commitment like

that? I have always been very positive on Europe. I have been

given to Mendis responsibilities. I am a kid from banger, County Down, I

had such a wonderful time here and wanted to come to this part of the

UK. Registered to vote. People fought and died to vote, get your

opinion out there. Older people are registered, younger people less so,

so do not let other people tell you what to do. Even if you're voting

Leave, vote to get it now. I think there are tremendous opportunities,

and I want all young people to have them. That passion for Europe is

specifically about staying in the youth, it is not just Europe, it is

the EU? They are one in the same, it is our continent. If you take the

journey of humanity, were 10,000 people 200,000 years ago, now we are

7 billion. We have to head towards a world where everyone has a fair

chance. Europe is a first continent to try to come together. We had

hundreds of years of endless wars, we try to stop it by building the

European Union. Above all it is for the sake of humanity that we do

this. Is it really one and the same thing? Boris Johnson would say he is

passionate about Europe but not passionate about the EU. He says

they are not one of the same thing and that is a critical point. He is

passionate about immigration. He is pro-immigration and is on the rack

subside. That is a confused story. If you want a recession, you Brexit,

because all the experts have lined up to say that. All these experts...

There are no experts on the Brexit site. Iraq Obama, Hillary Clinton on

this site. It is Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen from the National

front in France who say, go for Brexit. We will get a recession.

?100 million a year comes specifically to Northern Ireland. It

has opened a stick thing for Northern Ireland. I do feel being

bracketed in that kind of company, Sammy Wilson? It is not factual. The

countries in recession at the moment of those most closely tied to the EU

and especially the Eurozone. If you look at the countries where young

people do not have a chance for the future, 50% youth unemployment in

Spain, Italy, the economy of Greece in ruins. Why? Because they tied

themselves into the European project and tied themselves into the euro.

We are not tied into the euro. That's exactly right. We're one of

the countries whose economy is doing well, because we removed ourselves

from the most tight economic aspect of the European Union, namely the

Eurozone. And if you look at the countries which are thriving at the

moment, those countries even within the EU, they are the ones who stayed

out of the monetary and fiscal arrangements, and indeed the

government is its own case... Germany? We are performing better

than Germany. Germany are doing pretty well. We are performing

better than Germany, and as far as the success of our economy is

concerned, the government itself argues it is because we stayed

outside the European arrangement of the Eurozone. But not outside the

European Union. David Cameron is arguing to be in the European Union.

And he is wrong on that. In 2008 was a sub prime meltdown, that caused

problems around the world. Global recession is the point that Eddie is

making. That is not true. It was exacerbated in the European Union

because of the way in which the economic and monetary union at the

weakest countries. Germany, the big country, wanted to have a loose

monetary policy, low interest rates. That did not suit France, it did not

suit Italy. It did not suit Spain, it did not suit Ireland, and as a

result we had cheap money, property boom and then a big crash. 100

million comes into Northern Ireland from the European Union, 2.5 billion

over the last ten years. The Borders could go up. You have no borders at

the moment. Northern Ireland has been through hell, up until the Good

Friday Agreement, surely this is more positive? I am doing gigs in

French, in German, I am doing gigs all over Europe. This is a positive

thing. Humanity has to head forwards, we cannot head backwards.

The money that Kim into Northern Ireland was money that went out of

Northern Ireland in the first place. We are... The United Kingdom is a

net contributor of 10 billion. And if you look at the DFP figures for

2015, we get from the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common

Fisheries Policy and strategic investment, we get about ?350

million a year plus ?15 million from peace money, but we contribute...

100 million. Sammy, the UK is a net contributor to the EU, but Northern

Ireland is a net beneficiary, you at least accept that? You don't accept

that? Then you are one of a very small minority. Brexit accept that.

Figures produced by an organisation that is pro-staying in the EU...

Although it is difficult to work out the exact contribution, but if our

conurbations were made, R Barnett consequential is, we paying 356

million and we get 370 million back per year, and that is diminishing as

peace money goes down and as the Common Agricultural Policy tightens.

Do you think that trading figures like this actually helps you to win

votes for your position? We make the judgment on what is factual... Or

what you claim is factual. You cannot get to people to agree on the

figures. The Brexit figures agrees it is 360 million they get out of

it. We are net contributors. The other thing we do know is that

currently we are losing out on opportunities to trade with the

growing parts of the world well-being tied into the stagnant EU

with our trade deals. And the last thing we do know is that the

European Union is heading for an even greater crisis as we see the

countries in Southern Europe being tied more and more... That's not

true. If I could get a word in here, we're going towards... Brexit is

must an anagram of recession. It is going to happen. The World Trade

Organisation, the World Bank, the IMF, the governor of the Bank of

England, the CBI, the OECD, all of them lining up saying, do not leave,

it is not a good idea, you could well go into recession, and there

was not one person on the other side. They are just given it up.

There are people who come at this, Eddie, from a left Ish perspective,

which is where you're coming from. You are a member of the Labour Party

and running for a place on the national executive committee of the

Labour Party and said recently you would like to run for office, you'd

like to be an MP. He liked me sitting in the green benches

opposite Sammy at some stage in the future, but there are people in the

Labour Party, perhaps to the left of where you are who share your

socialist principles but who actually think that the EU is the

bogeyman. They are worried about big multinational companies taking over,

and I do not want that to happen, but my point is, above everything,

if you see all these figures, this number crunching, humanity. Do we

not gradually move away from tribalism and learn to live and work

together in some shape or form? Despair is the feel of terrorism,

hope is the feel of civilisation. We have to put more hope into the

world. Northern Ireland has lived through hell. I lived here until 69,

I was a kid here, I ran three marathons across Northern Ireland to

do something positive. I'm trying to live a positive campaign. Humanity

is not defined by membership of the European Union, surely. But the

signal that sense, if the UK pulls out, what signal does that send to

the world? It says we try to pull out and put up a brick wall. And the

Borders will come back between North and south and east and west. You

don't want that. Northern Ireland surely doesn't want the Borders

back. People say they are not sure, but they could come back. At the

moment they are not there. What's your position? You have said border

control is terribly important for the DUP, and that is partly why you

think, a chief reason for leaving the European Union, to have tough

border control. I believe it is important economically to have

proper control of our borders and immigration. And what would that

mean? What does that mean if there is Brexit? How do you control the

border as far as Northern Ireland and the Republic is concerned?

Deadly spell out why it is important. Without that control of

immigration, wages are being driven down and the poorest have been hit

in the least unskilled people have been hit, and also we have left

ourselves in jeopardy as terrorists are able to wander across Europe

carrying out atrocities in Paris, Brussels etc. How would those

controls work? We have spelt it out this week. Our immigration policy we

base on a points system whereby... How would you control the border

between Northern Ireland and the republic? That is the question. The

same way as it is controlled at the moment. But it is an open border.

And we are part of the open travel area. That open border has not in

any way impacted to date on the ability for us to stop people who we

don't wish to come into the country coming in. Why? Because the Irish

government recognises that the Common travel area is important.

They do the checks at airports. It would be completed and of the

Republic of Ireland remained and the UK pulled out. You would not have

the same kind of system that you have at the moment. There would be

customs, bureaucrats and... The Irish government has not signed up

to the Schengen agreement so they do have controls over the border, the

same controls we have, that is why once people see flick into the

Republic they can move into the United Kingdom because checks are

done at the Republic. Why would they want to stop that? Would they say,

we will not do this checks any longer and more will that people...

You don't know. Why would they do that? Were delectable coming...

There are not Borders Mike Weir going into a place where there could

be borders, there might be... Eddie, what is your fair? I'm coming back

here not as an Angus person but some are used to live here and I had a

great time when I was here and I just don't want you to go back to

any kind of borders. There are no borders now. So don't even go into

there may be borders and it recession may come up, and 100

million comes into Northern Ireland. There are summary net benefits from

it. Low-cost lights will go up, health care across Europe. That

disappears. True, these are real. Roaming charges... Low-cost flights

across Europe are because there is more competition, there has been a

change in the way flights have been organised, there has been an

appetite for low-cost flights. That is nothing to do with the European

Union. It is to do with the European Union. They made the low-cost

flights happen. The market changed and they made that happen. Roaming

costs. Do you honestly think the Michael O'Leary 's of this world, in

huge competition with easyJet and who do... The Chief Executive of

easyJet seven as well go down and the numbers will go up. Either she

is lying or it is true. If everyone is lying... All these experts are

lying... You cannot be sure, is that the

point? The chief Executive of easyJet is not going to put their

prices up when they know what there are other lower-priced competitors

are around. The competition will insure these prices... Do you think

they are employing scare tactics? Both sides could be accused of this.

I am turning in France and Germany. I will be in Normandy performing in

German, French and English, surely that is a positive thing? Democracy

and freedom since World War II. If we say we are pulling out, it is not

that we humans work. With there be brick wall? Whatever it is, what

signal does this send to the world, surely humanity moves forward by

learning to live together not my adding more borders and pulling out.

He said we would be like green lungs. No one can decide what we

would be. -- Greenland. No one has any idea what it would be. We do not

have a political union with south-east Asia and people go to

Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. When you both speak nobody can hear you.

Do you think this kind of discussion and debate where people talk at each

other rather than persuade each other, do you think it convinces

people about the rightness of your possession? We are on different

sites so we want to put up different points of view. I am not going to be

persuaded by M nor heed by me. My point is I am trying to live and

breathe, if a kid from Banga is going out and playing 28 countries

on a tour, surely that is more positive than going backwards. You

can do all that without being in the EU. He can travel in other parts of

the world without a political union. The important thing for the people

northern Ireland is do you want to be able to decide the laws of your

own country by selecting politicians who if they do not put through the

laws you want, you have got an opportunity to get rid of them. You

do not have that in the EU but you will if we have independence. One

quick final question,. Just eight days into the job,

Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill made her first big decision

as Health Minister today. She's announced the lifting

of the lifetime ban on gay What's your reaction

to that development? My reaction is I hope she has

ensured that whatever arrangements to place, make sure that people do

not finish up with contaminated blood and have their health could at

risk. She is following UK procedures. I have been at debates

in the House of Commons and talk to constituents with people who've are

living with contaminated blood scenarios. The rest of the UK, we

are now in line with them, and you are Unionist. Other companies still

say there is a risk and I hope she has considered all the information

before she made that decision. She says it is based on the best

scientific information. Let me ask Eddie. Surely, we are human beings

we can move forward, gay people, transgender people, it's what we

contribute to the world. It was 2011 in the rest of the UK and it has

taken time to get through here, let us move positively forward to a

brighter future. On the eve you, I do not think you have persuaded each

other but people are home will tell us whether you are persuaded them.

-- on the EU. For the first time since the signing

of the Good Friday Agreement there's now a DUP -

rather than a Sinn Fein - Peter Weir, unlike his

predecessors, is a supporter But will that mean big changes

in future for the way children transfer from primary

to post-primary schools? Our Education Correspondent, Robbie

Meredith, has been finding out. What is best for the future of

pupils like these at this primary School in Belfast has divided

teachers, parents and ministers for years. Since they introduced the

transfer test, the then Education Minister thought she had got away

with that 40 years later. There will be no 11 plus and normalise either

asking primary school educators to disrupt and interfere with the

revised curriculum in favour of a transfer test. It has been each year

since the last 11 plus exam. Temporary testing systems were set

up to decide which grammar schools pupils should attend look like they

are here to stay. That does not mean opposition to academic selection has

lessened. These A-level pupils did not sit a transfer test and they go

to one of the top non-selection schools in Northern Ireland. The

reason we are successful as we do not test children at 11. Children

are coming in here with low self-esteem. If you create a two

tier system, some people will be failures in that system. The main

thing grammar schools do is take all the pupils who are deemed to be

successful and you leave a raft of people who have low self-esteem and

feel they have been failed by the education system. We cannot afford

to do that in the 21st century. A recent draft report into links

regarding educational achievement and deprivation concluded this sort

of education favoured privileged. The final version of this research

which took three years has not yet been published. I understand the

conclusions about academic selection may be changed before it is. Those

conclusions are not something these parents agree with. QC appearance

are stressed and children who are stressed. The vast majority enjoy

the challenge of the test. This system gives people choices. Not

every school is suitable for every child. It is important every child

is matched to the school which gives them the best opportunities.

Selection has afforded parents a choice in the past. Loading them to

maintain traditions and their family as opposed to a more occupational

route. The essence is to ensure a child is best matched to the school

which provides what they need. More appearance than ever are preparing

-- putting children to the transfer test. The assessment exams are

mostly used by car thing grammar schools while the other exams are

used by controlled schools. -- catholic grammar schools. The new

Education Minister does not want to return to the 11 plus tests. They

want to combine ease to test into one. We want to talk to the people

involved and Steve Wrekin do that this year. A single test would be

utterly impossible this year. The registration process has been going

on for the last month. We have 3000 registrations. The schools have been

preparing their children. To turn around and say we're now going to

have a single test which will be different with simply be impossible.

We could not do that. Both testing organisations have met regularly but

they cannot agree on whether the test should be paid for by parents

or what form it should take. If we work hard to reach agreement on

those important issues, especially the issue of funding then we have to

put together a test which is agreeable to both of us. We will

have to trial it in some way, provide past papers and give

information to schools. You are looking at a lead-in period of, if I

said to Mike years, I think that would be too tight timetable. # two

years. I think at least three years. This principle of the school just

once the decision. We are looking for clarity. What we're hearing from

the government is a new model and a new way of looking at decisions. We

would like the Department of education to make a decision one way

or other as to what is the week ahead. In the immediate future,

things are set to stay very much the same.

Well, with me now are Bob McCartney, who's the chair of the National

Grammar Schools' Association, and in our Foyle studio

is the Bishop of Derry and former school principal Donal McKeown.

Do you expect the DUP to deliver - and soon - on a single test here?

I think they would like to but I think it is difficult. We have heard

from one of the commentators that it may take three years. I think that

isn't hardly reasonable. It is something you would like to say, you

think the DUP should be working towards this? I think it should be

working towards a single test but the questioners, which test? There

are two tests, the AQ t-test has been standardised and validated

which cannot be said about the GL test. Do you think it is possible

for some compromise to be reached between the two organisations? I

would hope so. One point of difference is the first test has

three test and the other has two. They have three because they

recognise that many children, especially from disadvantaged areas,

have not been coached or tutors as they used to be under the old 11

plus. The reason for three tests, the first test is to acquaint them

with the process and make them relaxed. Also it is the best of

three which is picked. So the element of luck is removed. Do you

feel you have lost an ally with the DUP taking over the education

portfolio from Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein are opposed to selection at 11 as

you are and the DUP is in favour? I am annoyed and disappointed, not at

the appointment of a particular Minister, my concern is we will end

up wasting an enormous amount of time focusing on whether we should

have an 11 plus transfer test, grammar schools or not rather than

asking the fundamental question, how on earth are we going to move from

an underachieving system which feels 20% of our young people at 16 with

lack of qualifications and how do we change our system in order to

provide junk people with the skills and qualifications for an

entrepreneurial society? -- young people. If only we could remove the

transfer test, we think, but we need a fundamental look at what will

deliver positive outcomes for all our young people and then ask a

question as to how we do that rather than getting tied up and going rent

in circles as we do at present about whether we have a single transfer

test, grammar schools or not. Does that mean that you are accepting the

reality that the selection test are here to stay and will not go away

and there are many catholic grammar schools which have not moved away

from selection despite being urged to do so by you and other Catholic

Bishops? A good number have or are in the process of doing it. A lot

still have not. It is a long time since I met anyone in the catholic

system who is in favour of the current system and believes it is a

good one. There is a fair if they move unilaterally they will be

disadvantaged. I have not heard anyone say it is good for

educational outcomes. Catholic grammar schools want to contribute

to a successful education system here. We have to find what is the

best way to deliver quality outcomes for everybody and the current system

is not doing that. Catholic grammar schools know that. You must disagree

because you believe selection works, why do believe that works? I believe

works because we have the best GCSE results and A-level results in the

United Kingdom. This suggestion that it is selection which is

disadvantaging 20% of the community is fallacious. It is because the

real problem is in the primary schools. The primary schools are not

delivering enough children who at 11, when they moved in to post

primary education, art able to read, write and count properly. That is

the big deficit. What is your response to the report

that talks about links and saying that children are favoured with

academic parents, and those who can afford private jitters? Let me point

out that the biggest asset a child can have from an educational point

of view is to have aspirational parents. And in many sections of the

community, there is that absence. For example, in north Belfast there

is an absence of aspiration. In which case selection does not help,

if you do not have aspirational parents, if you have selection a

lot, you are in trouble. Selection comes after the failure to deliver

children at 11 who are articulate, who are numerate, and who can write

properly. If, when they going to post primary education they have not

got those attributes, they never ever get them. That is an

established educational fight from both sides of the divide. Let's see

what the bishop says in response. How do you counter what Bob

McCartney has just said? I think the current situation assumes that since

42% of young people will be at grammar schools then 42% of young

people are academically inclined arrest of occasional. If 70% were

academically inclined there still would be room only for 42% in the

grammar schools. In other words we have a system which is structured in

such a way it serves the needs of the schools rather than looking to

see what has good outcomes. I am in the west of the province as you

know, and the most entrepreneurial part of Northern Ireland is that

space where the vast majority of schools are not grammar schools. We

need places which do not divide young people into two artificial

silos at 11 on the basis of a fallacious test that is not measure

intelligence or potential and moved to a system that asks how we measure

outcomes that will better our economy and help all young people to

succeed and not just some full stop a final response? I think it is

false gesture and that is being made. The grammar schools have

demonstrated over the years that they are the most effective vehicle

for upwards social mobility. Even Labour opponents like Lord Adonis of

selection have said that in the absence of selection on merit by

test, what we get is selection on postcode, social position and money.

For my part, I am determined that children from my background in 2016

will have the benefit I had in 1948. I was the youngest of eight children

from a back street, and of thing I have achieved is down to a grammar

school education. Gentlemen, we will leave you there. Thank you very much

indeed. Let's hear what tonight's

commentators make of Chris Donnelly and the Reverend

Lesley Carroll are with me. Nice to see you both. Leslie, you're

back from your trials and relations at the ballot box. Glad to be that

behind you? Absolutely. But stop first of all about the selection

discussion we have just had with Mr McCartney and the Bishop. You are a

teacher, any primary School in north Belfast. Yes, I am based printable

of a primary school in north Belfast and I can tell Bob there are very

many aspirational parents in north Belfast. I think the issue here is

wider. I find it disconcerting from my background that the first thing

the DUP since taking up education have focused on is the issue of

academic selection and the test. But it cannot surprise you. It does in

one sense, because I think the party now the real issue they face is not

whether there are two or three or four tests in the autumn of primary

six four children wanting to go to grammar school. The challenge facing

them is going to be, how will he tackle the issue of educational

underachievement? And Summers party's perspective, how do the

square continued support for academic selection with the fact

that leads directly to the long tail of underachievement in this society?

And a pick-up in on Bob's point, the heroes of our system are those in

the non-grammar sector. We send the vast majority of our per children,

the vast majority of those with difficulties, we corralled into

non-grammar schools and say to the teachers, you do the heavy lifting.

Leslie, do you have any support the further view to Best Buy Bob

McCartney, says that what selection does do is it gives kids from

backstreet an opportunity to survive the highest level? I don't think the

system we have now does that at all. Mr McCartney talks about the absence

of aspiration. That Assembly not true. Any parent in north Belfast

have great aspiration for the kids they just do not know how to get in

on the system. Therefore the system is closing them out, by tests that

are run in different ways, where you go and privately get your kids

jitters to be able to respond to what the test puts in front of you.

It is not merit-based, it is postcode -based. Is it now the case,

briefly, that the issue of getting rid of any kind of selection at 11

is off the table, because the DUP can keep the system going as it is

for as long as they want to? The Sinn Fein agenda has gone, Hazard? I

think within the Catholic sector there will be some grammar schools

or move towards all ability, but the focus will shift towards how, if we

retain selection, how will education deal with the issue of

underachievement, and that is significant. And what about the gay

blood ban? We saw that lifted today. What does that say about the

relationship that is beginning to unfold between Sinn Fein and the DUP

at Stormont? A new relationship, if we believe what they say. It is

interesting, and important timing for Sinn Fein. Has been a perception

for while now that there is only the two parties in the executive, and a

perception that the DUP are holding the whip hand. This is something

that Sinn Fein can show that this is consistent with their agenda and

ideology and something the DUP have argued against women held the post,

and they have now had to concede on that. And how does today's

development fit into the wider equality agenda? It is interesting

that the Minister has sold this on the back of being evidence -based. I

think that Israeli important for the equality agenda. We have to work

from a strong evidence base to inform policy. I figured is

extremely important, and the LGBT community have acknowledged the

importance of this by them playing their full part in society. You are

pleased? I am pleased. Let's talk about our EU debate between Eddie

Izzard and Sammy Wilson. What did you make of it? It got heated at

times, which is good. Part of the criticism of the Remain campaign is

that it has been focused on fair, fear of the unknown, fear that

mortgages would increase, fear of recession. And one other things that

Eddie Izzard try to pick up on, and Jeremy Corbyn did today, was a

left-wing view of a positive affirmation of the state remaining

in AE you, it is better for workers' writes, better for the economy. That

is important, because the need to be that elements to encourage Labour

voters particularly to turn out. And they tend to talk at each other

maybe then to each other. If you were sitting at home, undecided,

with that help you make your mind up? Absolutely not. Edwards to

bolster up the mess upon which all of this is existing opened. We will

leave it there, thank you very much. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35

here on BBC One. Earlier I was talking

to the comedian Eddie Izzard, he spent part of his

childhood growing up And he can still make a decent stab

at the accent. I was watching a documentary called

Clash of the Titans. And what is phase, Liam Neeson, he was playing

Zeus the God of all things and Liam Neeson is famous now in Hollywood,

all the way from Northern Ireland. So he is there in the middle going:

NORTHERN IRISH ACCENT: another is happening with the people? You tell

them from me they better buck up their ideas. This is a very early

impression of Liam Neeson, by the way. NORTHERN IRISH ACCENT: "They

better buck up their ideas, otherwise I will