29/09/2016 The View

As the dispute over Twaddell looks like its entering its final phase,

tonight on The View, we're asking what it'll take

It's been a major disruption in North Belfast for three years,

running up a massive policing bill, but this weekend could

see the last act in the Twaddell Avenue dispute.

It was goodwill from all those concerned and that is the essential

ingredient in terms of making this work. The deal was pretty much laid

out and the road map. I'll be asking a former chairman

of the Parades Commission if he's convinced this issue

is now, finally, resolved. Plus, Enda Kenny's convening

all-Ireland talks on Brexit. I'll be asking the DUP why it

won't be at the table - Why a DUP Minister said

"nada" to the fada. And with their thoughts -

in whatever language they prefer - our commentary team of

Newton Emerson and Deirdre Heenan. The agreement between

the Orange Order and the Crumlin-Ardoyne Residents'

Association has cleared the way for the Ligoneil Orangemen

to complete the return leg In return, the loyalist protest camp

at Twaddell will be dismantled - and a senior Orangeman has told this

programme that his members are fully committed to direct dialogue

with residents to secure a long-term solution and he wants those talks

to begin within weeks. So what are the chances of putting

a deal in place which will last? Our Political Correspondent,

Enda McClafferty, has for almost 1200 days that has stood

as a symbol of defiance. The Orangemen took a stand and refuse to

walk away. That led to a three-year stand-off and a policing Bill of

over ?20 million. Come Saturday it will all disappear and the makeshift

Twaddell camp will be dismantled, if all goes according to plan. Taking

down the flanks is the easy part. The big challenge will come not so

much from taking down but building up. The trust to ensure the promises

made Arquette and that the agreement calls over the weekend. So what will

it take to make this deal step and what lessons if any can be drawn

from resolutions elsewhere. I believe this will stick because

there was an appetite to find a resolution. Leaders goodwill from

all those concerned that that is the essential ingredient. Once the

parade goes home the deal is pretty much laid out and everyone will

follow that. I believe the institution will not be found

wanting in the position it takes in supporting the Ligoneil Orangemen,

and indirect dialogue with the residents. And that according to

this man is the key building block and resolving contentious parades.

From that part right up along the wall over to the side, on this side

is the contentious part. Millions of pounds worth of damage and people

were killed. Michael Doherty mediated in the early days of the

dispute. There were similarities and one of the similarities, you can see

there is a way it can be done, but both parties have to trust each

other to deliver. The test will be, after Saturday comes along, if those

relationships continue to be built upon. There are other similarities.

Key to the deal in north Belfast is the selling off of a forum bringing

the residents together along with interested parties. That is what

happened in the early 18 years ago. I can remember hem swivelling in his

chair so I was talking to his back which was totally unacceptable. I

have to say, is that no longer happens. Is there a trust now? Not

100% but that is genuine engagement where we arrive at an accommodation

and we are confident people will do their level best to ensure that is

adhered to. The big challenge for the apprentice boys back then as it

is for the Orange order in Belfast, convincing they are all in that

sitting down with nationalist residents is not a sell-out. This

association wishes to state our firm intention to walk the city walls at

a time of our own choosing. We have nobody to talk for us but going down

a slippery slope of not talking, it was a situation. About 10% of the

apprentice boys then back the leadership. There wouldn't even be

10% against, but it takes time. How would you describe the relationship

now between the orders and the residents? It is getting there. Just

like in Derry back then they are happy to take a step back. In a

statement approving the parade, the commission said the agreement

between the Orange order and the area presents an opportunity for a

resolution of the decades parading disputes, but the mark showers will

face opposition from the residents collective who are planning a

protest on Friday night and Saturday morning. Why they are opposed to

this yet there was two a couple of weeks ago. I don't think it's

helpful and it is cranking up tension. The only thing cranking up

tension as the imposition of this parade on Saturday morning. The

parade was dead and Sinn Fein enters its the facilitators and others

involved in the protest on the loyalist said have resurrected it

effectively. Has it all been worth it? Saturday morning at 8:30 a.m.,

the objective will be achieved and Saturday morning will be the

beginning of a new future of parading in north Belfast. The first

test of the new agreement will come on Saturday when 200 Orangemen will

attempt to complete a march they started three years ago. The real

test will come in ten months when the local lodges set then to set out

the road map for the 12th of July parades.

And the former Parades Commission chair, Peter Osborne,

Peter, the stakes are clearly high here.

Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly was prepared to discuss the issue

on the programme tonight, but we couldn't get a single

What does that tell you about how careful people

I am hearing two things from that and the report. From the report,

some very positive vibes about a new future for parading in north

Belfast. If you asked people 56 years ago they would have said there

was no hope will be resolution, one of the most difficult and

contentious parades, and that will bring huge benefits to local people

and Northern Ireland as a whole, to know we can sort these things out.

It has taken a few years but the context is set and we are on the

cusp of doing something important. We know of course that is another

residents group, GARC, who are not happy with the agreement. There is a

parade tomorrow night and also a demonstration, counter demonstration

on Saturday morning. Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly has called

on GARC to cancel its planned The SDLP's Nichola Mallon has called

on GARC to reconsider its decision. There is obviously a lot of

nervousness on the ground and two very different narratives of what

has happened. That is nervousness because this is a significant issue

which is hopeful it going to be resolved and the weekend will be

another big step towards that resolutions that is understandable.

People obviously have a right to protest and it would be helpful if

that didn't happen but the fact of the matter is we've got to

acknowledge the vision and the courage of the local lodges and

others for coming to this agreement and we have to acknowledge the

resilience of the police and the commitment of the mediators and we

have to acknowledge also the decisions and the contributions of

the Parades Commission, so we are the cusp of doing something bought

it and it is important everyone weighs in on supports it and does

what they can to get us over the line at the weekend. Is it your view

that if we get over this bump on the road that is this weekend, once that

is overcome, it could be relatively plain sailing in future? Nothing is

plain sailing. Still a lot of work to be done? Work to be done over

many years for parading as a whole, even just looking at Londonderry.

The piece from 2001, 2002, really important, and 15 years on the still

working on that. And some would say the hard work only really begins

after this weekend. It is important that people have too want to have

the agreement and do that work. Motivation is really important.

Dialogue and relationship building. Relationships are important, and

none of those things stop and they have to be worked at for years and

years and I think that'll be the case in north Belfast. We need to

get the weekend over and the forecast setup, we need to get

resources into that area, and both sides of the community really want

everybody to be working this through because it is and their interests

and to their benefit. The truth of the matter, when you listen to the

apprentice boys, 20 years on, they are still not completely there are

and it is still hard work to be done to keep things on an even keel.

People meet up and discuss these issues regularly and that

relationship goes on and there are new people involved than those

relationships develop new people, so it is an ongoing process and that is

the reality. These are difficult issues and don't find resolution

easily and we need to acknowledge the tremendous work that has gone on

so far with the people involved and hopefully this agreement that

full-spectrum but it needs to continue to be worked at for years

and years and evidently must acknowledge and recognise that

including political representatives on all sides and government and

civil society and faith -based leaders, because this will need the

support of all those people to make it work now, next year, in five and

ten years' time. Following that narrative logically, if there was a

model in Derry which is now being applied to north Belfast with some

hope of success, does that mean logically that model could be used

as a template to solve other disputed areas which have still to

be resolved, like for example Drumcree. Derry Londonderry people

will tell you it is not a model as such but there have been principles

are applied in a number of areas and in those areas were parading with

contentious over the last ten or 15 years you something studying about.

That is because it has moved on, the has been progress, and the same

principles apply to have been applied elsewhere as well. People

wanted to make progress and there was dialogue and leadership and that

led to progress. For now, thank you. Deirdre and Newton, thoughts on

the weekend? When you look at the table and the

blood we have travelled, are you optimistic, do you think there is an

application of the positive experiences from Derry that can be

applied to north Belfast? To some extent the errors and the big thing

that came out is the will to find a resolution that seems to me to be

the underlying principle. You might see the dynamic between Derry and

north Belfast is very different. You are talking about the city centre in

Derry can be largely nationalist city, and in many ways bill is not a

model that is translatable, but the key thing as there was a will to

find the resolution and people got together to talk about it. All

politics is local and this is very much a local dispute with local

actors, relationships and the resolution has got to be agreed

locally. Well there might be a lot of people

in north Belfast to want to see the printable that were established and

applied in Derry also applied to north Belfast, and a positive

outcome to come from that, not everyone in north Belfast sees this

template as the solution? That is the difficulty.

I think that this deal is a good deal, and it should work, but that's

because the compromise as necessary so obvious. From the moment this

dispute began. Of course, the Orange Order would have to compromise and

talk with residents. The longer that went on, the yard of a compromise

was going to be, but that was the only variable. I think what has been

exposed by this is the vacuum of unionist political leadership,

because it appears that the decisive factor in bringing the Orange Order

to its senses were loyalist paramilitaries. If that's what it

took, so be it, but how pathetic for unionism as a whole that the two

main parties appear to in public have stepped back and let this

happen. Perhaps there were efforts behind the scenes. And not fully

aware of that, but there had never been public statements made to the

Orange Order that this dispute was doomed, that it was sending people

to prison, that it was definitely going to end in a deal like this,

but it was only going to get harder as time went on.

And they still need to say that. If you want this longer term deal

you're talking about, unionist political leadership has to step up.

I accept your analysis. Just a final thought from you, Deirdre. If we do

get over this hump, as suggested, would you be optimistic that

whatever lessons are learned in north Belfast can also be applied

elsewhere? Yes, I would be optimistic, but I

think we have to be realistic. To go back to the package Alistair Simpson

has taught you about, we're getting and 15-16 years later. It is a

process, which will not be soft on Saturday. We have to accept that

would let their relationship build and not reach the crisis we have got

to the stage. As you say, it involves leadership at all levels,

community levels, but also our political leaders need to say, in

the package, they were asked if it is worth it, and we have had a lot

of focus on the financials, but socially and culturally, Northern

Ireland and the image of Northern Ireland are suffering because of

this. Thank you both very much indeed.

And we'll hear more from Deirdre and Newton later.

Now, they say it's good to talk, and the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny,

seems determined to persist with his plan to set up a forum

to discuss the impact of the EU referendum.

Mr Kenny announced plans for what he called an all-Ireland

"conversation" on Brexit earlier this week, involving

business people, members of civic society and political parties.

Our intention here is to protect this country's vital national

interests in these talks. A great deal of confusion out there at the

moment, not only in Britain, but also in Europe, arising indeed from

the meeting I attended recently in practice lava. I have asked every

minister to engage with their counterparts in Northern Ireland in

respect of the forthcoming session. I have do accept it is the

Democratic results from the electorate of the United Kingdom, so

I will give you the details are soon as we have them finalised. We will

have the voice of Northern Ireland business, agriculture, and people,

in regard to their views as to what they consider might happen, and the

implications the Northern Ireland as well. For us here, I have made it

perfectly clear bow to the Prime Minister when I met her in Downing

Street, and the European council, that Ireland will argue very

vehemently for the continued recognition of the peace process and

the support that has brought, but also in respect to the critical

juncture this country is at in terms of maintaining our part of the

United Kingdom, but speaking as a country that would play a central

part of the EU. That was the Taoiseach Enda Kenny

responding to a question from the Sinn Fein leader

Gerry Adams in the Dail The Ulster Unionists have told

The View they won't be involved in the discussions,

and nor did they want to take part here tonight, but with me

are the DUP's Edwin Poots and the deputy leader

of the Alliance Party, Naomi Long. You are both welcome to the

programme. Edwin, the DUP has made

clear its opposition to any such conversation -

but what have you to fear from an all-island discussion

on such an important issue? It is not so much what we have to

fear is what we would have to gain from engaging in this. You don't

know until you take part, I suppose is the argument.

To have the opportunity is already to have discussions around Brexit

through the north- South ministerial council, and discussions did take

place at the last meeting of the NSM C. So the creation of another body,

another all Ireland Forum, would appear to be something that is more

and Kenny dealing with pressures within his own country than actually

arriving at solid conclusions about Brexit. So our conversations are

largely at this stage going to be with UK ministers, through MPs and

our Executive team, and those conversations are taking place, and

will continue to take place, and that is where the real action is

going to be, not some talking shop in Dublin.

So nothing to gain, is Edwin Poots' point?

That is a foolhardy point. There is everything to gain from being

involved in those discussions. Let's be clear, the reason the DUP don't

want to be at the table in these discussions is because they don't

want the other Northern Ireland parties who take a different view on

Brexit included in those discussions. Why the Ulster Unionist

Party participate and withdraw themselves from a place where they

could have some influence is absolutely beyond comprehension, but

I know that if Alliance are invited to the table, we will go alone make

a strong case in Northern Ireland. It is fine to say we'll talk to the

British government, and we absolutely sure. They will have a

formal role of representing Northern Ireland's position in the subsequent

negotiations. However, it is in our interests given the uniqueness of

Northern Ireland to have friends in Europe with whom we are negotiating,

who are actually also batting for our corner. So it would be madness

for us not to be working closely with the Irish government, given the

degree to which our two economies are interlinked, our two communities

are interlinked, and to which we actually in need to address the

issue having a land border. And I do not understand what reason anyone

would have not engaging in this conversations at a time like this.

How do you respond to that? Makes no sense whatsoever to rule yourselves

out of what could be a very important conversation.

We already have a forum for doing that, the NSM C.

This is a different kind of conversation.

Moving away from this to something which is merely a talking shop,

and... 'S iMac that is very dismissive of

the business community. It is not something we wish to

engage in. And Kenny made the point in the Dail

that this is going to give an opportunity for agribusiness north

and south, meat producers, beef and pork producers, industry, financial

services and health to take part in a conversation. These are the people

you represent, the people you work with and claim vote for the DUP. Why

would you want to cut them out of that important conversation?

Many of them voted to leave the EU as well.

There are implications of all them that this is an?

Let's be very clear. The DUP will be engaging with all the key players

when it comes to Brexit, and particularly with the UK ministers

who are negotiating our exit from the European Union, and we were

being gauging with colleagues across the border who do not need to

establish another body to do it. -- we will be. Naomi is not part of the

NSMC. She could have been decided to walk away from the Executive. Given

what happened subsequently, I think there was a decision. They blame the

Ulster Unionist Party what went in to be somewhere where there is

influence when they want away from a position of influence themselves.

There was no opportunity to influence we establish that before

Nadal decision, in knots were Les not rehearse that decision. This is

an opportunity to bring together all of those sectors. None of the people

you mentioned are representative of the NSMC, and the reason the DUP

aren't comfortable with the idea of widening this discussion is because

many of those people may well have voted for Brexit, but the majority

of people in Northern Ireland did not, and I think that is the issue,

and it is not doing enough EU to talk about, Edwin, what the DUP will

do. You are a member of the government in Northern Ireland, part

of an Executive, and your leadership cannot even be jointly with the

British ministers who are dealing with Brexit when they come to

discuss the issue, because Sinn Fein and the DUP are not in the same

place. Having a wider discussion that engages in a practical level

people with experience and expertise to bring to the debate would make

absolute sense when there is a vacuum of leadership from the

Executive. The United Kingdom will be

negotiating this issue will European Union.

But you will have a very small voice as far as the United Kingdom

negotiation is concerned. That is a fact.

We may have a small voice, but we will have a voice.

You would have a bigger voice if you were in Dublin and part of that

conversation. That is a valid argument -- I'm not

sure that is a valid argument. When Theresa May was elected by

minister, she went straight to Holyrood and met with the First

Minister of Scotland and then went on a tour of Europe, and then

finally, out of almost embarrassment, came to Northern

Ireland to consult the directive, so let's not be under any illusions

that we will be driving the Brexit negotiations in the UK, but what we

can have our other friendly voices at the table in Europe with whom we

are negotiating, actually making our case as well.

Why would you not want to do that? Why would you want to further

marginalise Northern Ireland's voice, in whatever conversations

about taking place? We are not marginalised, I can

assure you. Our members of Parliament in particular have been

engaged in discussions with very senior people within the ministry in

in the United Kingdom, and our voice is by no means marginal. We have a

key voice to make here, we have key issues to raise. Northern Ireland is

different in many ways from other parts of the UK. We are much more

reliant on agriculture, for example. But there are a lot of reasons to

actually take place. All discussions will be taking

place. Why would you not want to go down to

Dublin to hear what other people had to say, to listen to what they had

to say, and to make sure that they understand fully the opposition? I

don't understand what it is that you have to fear from that situation.

As I said, we had nothing to fear. And why not do it? If you're a

self-confident unionist, why would you not do that?

We have nothing to gain. But you don't know if you do not

take part. There is a great short space of

time. Remember, these talks are being called sometime in November,

and we're looking at the potential for article 50 being triggered in

January. So we have a very short space of time with all of the people

that you are talking about being involved in this, I would expect.

So let me see if we can boil it down. You really care what Northern

Remainer is pink, tough luck, and a spiral impact in the people in the

Republic of Brexit, that is not your problem?

Anything that is your terminology, not mine. We care very much about

what think in Northern Ireland. There are DUP voters, and they

obviously voted to Remain. Potentially DUP ministers he wrote

even tell is how they voted. Of course we care how they voted. We

will seek to ensure that Northern Ireland gets the best possible deal

when the UK exes Europe, but we're not going to engage in silly things

like the other parties, like trying to overrule the will of the people

by taking it to court. If you really care what people

fought in the Republic, would you not go down to the public, not to

have a debate in argument, just a conversation?

We have already been having conversations with the Republic, and

we will continue to do so. What about the point that there is

no need for a new forum? We have a British- Irish parliamentary body,

with the NSMC, and Arlene Foster made it very clever this July that

if she has a problem when she first knocked this idea down when the

Taoiseach first raise it, I don't knew this, because at any time, I

can pick up the phone to end their canny and have a conversation? To

leisure analysis very? That a simple another case.

But that is what she said. While the Executive were on holiday

and not doing anything to prepare for Brexit, others amongst us were

out there talking to business, talking to universities, about the

challenges they face. I have to say, it is very dismissive of the DUP to

assume that people in those sorts of sectors would give up their time and

energy for something that was no more than a talking shop. They are

doing it because they recognise that this is the single biggest risk to

their future. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will all be

bad news. You are such a tiny, irrelevant

party now that you will take any platform to get your voice heard,

that is what it boils down to? Absolutely not. It is important

because the people voted for me did so on the basis that I was in favour

of Europe, and I want to continue to make sure that whatever happens with

Northern Ireland's future, it is not that clear cut. You may think that

people are taking silly court cases to try to overturn democratic will.

That is not the case. What we're trying to do is clarify what Brexit

will actually mean in constitutional terms from Northern Ireland. If the

best the British Promina minister can do is Brexit means Brexit,

clearly nobody has the first clue. -- Prime Minister.

So you will not accept democracy? I do except that. What we're talking

about... Had it been the other way round, you

would have challenged it in God. Well, that is nonsense. The Good

Friday Agreement, you fought every step of the way. The entrance into

Europe was endorsed by a public vote, and you fought it at every

step of the way. So I will be taking lectures from the DUP about when to

give up on issues. You should go back and read your history.

The fact that he does not want to tell you but really to the suspicion

that he may have voted to Remain, which is at odds with party policy

boss about embarrassing, isn't it? Why doesn't he just tell people?

I haven't had that conversation with him. How did you vote? I voted to

leave. But the economy minister can give me the same simple answer a

week ago in the studio. The DUP have a position on this, and

that is, we're supporting leaving. The economy will be negotiating that

matter the economy minister will negotiate on our behalf.

It is not about getting the best deal, and being at the table will

ensure that we get the best deal. I only raise this. Quickly, what was

your party doing renaming a boat from Irish to English, from Banrion

Uladh to Queen of Ulster? Thought you were agreeing to run the country

to the Batiment and everybody? I think everybody in Northern

Ireland will know Queen of Ulster means. I suspect not of a body in

Northern Ireland will no whatever it was that you read out.

I thought you now agreed your going to work together. This is an example

perhaps of the mass slipping? She has made the decision and I am

fairly supportive of the decision. It is an example of fiddling while

Rome burns. Sitting around with what you call the ship is a waste. It is

very dependent on the European market and that is what you should

be focused on protecting. Thank you both.

And let's hear more from tonight's commentators, Deirdre Heenan

Any great surprise that the Ulster Unionists and the DUP aren't

interested in taking part in the Taoiseach's

I think no great surprise that the DUP added and tested but it is a

surprise that the Ulster Unionist Party not interested because it was

an opportunity to show relevance and be on the negotiating chamber and

try to influence policy, so it is all well and good to go down and

shake hands and attend events, but when you have the opportunity to

influence positively they have decided not to be there and it seems

strange to me. It is not a surprise that the DUP have already written

this off as a talking shop. They don't know that and the reality is

they should be taking every opportunity to ensure the best

outcome for Northern Ireland. I know the DUP obviously has an objection

to Northern Ireland bodies and an embarrassment about that and it is

embarrassment that Brexit itself. The DUP over the summer spoke about

representing Northern Ireland in Europe so that is blue sky thinking

in the long term but when it comes to talking about Brexit this

November they have nothing yet to see. Otherwise it would be quite a

different issue. And do they really think in terms of two these may

negotiating that Northern Ireland will be a top priority. It will be

about the financial sector and London and the south-east. Northern

Ireland will not get a look and so we have to ensure we get the best

deal. The DUP will have those conversations with UK ministers as

and when appropriate. So why not take the opportunity to be in a

forum with business leaders and academics. The DUP has been a little

seduced by the idea of its influence in a finely balanced Westminster.

Another story in the news today, involving the Queen of Ulster,

It looks like an unseemly squabble which you could say gives an insight

into the arguments. They can come to the pact over welfare reform but

this kind of Butterfield is only a comfortable one. They cannot resist

this. They can change the name plate backwards and forwards at the next

five years if that is what you want. It seems so petty, such a petty

thing to do, how could that be top of your agenda with so many other

things happening. It defies belief. It is a cultural fight. It is maybe

a bit more than a distraction but not much more. Let's broaden our

scope and talk about the US presidential debate. You didn't stay

up but he did. Was it worth it? It was fascinating. The pomp and

ceremony, the backroom staff, but in the end, the people who are going to

vote for Donald Trump will still vote for him. Many people believe he

is the boss on the television, why could he not run the country?

Hillary Clinton was OK, she allowed him to be hoist by his own petard.

Stormont politics isn't as bad as we think, that is what he should take

limit. He probably didn't do himself any harm. I know you saw bits of it

afterwards but that Clinton do herself credit? Not really, both

clamp the were disappointing. Two to go so that is something and we will

leave it there. That's it from The View

for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35

here on BBC1. The pictures are the same,

the words, I promise you, are exactly the same -

it's just the voice that comedian Do you want to know the truth? I was

going to say something extremely rough to Hillary and I said to

myself, I can't do it, I just cant do it. It inappropriate, it's not

nice, but I don't have a relationship with him, I don't need

him, I didn't spend time with him, I have dinner with them, I didn't go

hiking with them. I don't know him except they see his picture and I

know what looks like. The other day, behind the blue

screen, I don't know who you are talking to Secretary Clinton, but

you were totally out of control! I said the and as a person with a

temperament that has got a problem. OK.