Browse content similar to 12/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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I believe today is the right time to call a halt to the DUP's arrogance. | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
We find ourselves in this situation because of political calculation by | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
Sinn Fein that they are better in the position they have chosen. That | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
is a regret. Whichever way you look at it, | :00:24. | :00:25. | |
it seems we're facing "A stark and very serious | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
situation at Stormont The words of the Secretary | :00:30. | :00:52. | |
of State, James Brokenshire. As talks continue to try | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
and save the political institutions, Sinn Fein says it'll meet the DUP, | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
but the time for talks has passed. With claim and counter-claim over | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
who's to blame for the breakdown in power-sharing and who's set | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
to lose out because of it, I'm joined by Sinn Fein's Mairtin O | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
Muilleoir and the DUP's Paul Givan. And with a war of words well | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
underway on the hill, what words of wisdom will there be | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
in Commentators' Corner? Professor Deirdre Heenan | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
and columist Newton Emerson are joined by our political editor, | :01:24. | :01:24. | |
Mark Devenport. Plus - while it's all very | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
serious stuff at Stormont, Tonight - is time running out | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
for the Assembly with talk of parties organising selection | :01:30. | :01:48. | |
meetings ahead of what looks Since Martin McGuinness' | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
resignation on Monday, the political drama played out | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
between the two main parties has left little hope | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
for a last minute agreement - with today's double controversy over | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
the Irish language and the bedroom tax throwing their differences | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
into sharp focus. I'm joined by the Finance Minister, | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
Mairtin O Muilleoir, and the Communities Minister, | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
Paul Givan. Welcome to both of you. Paul Givan, | :02:10. | :02:20. | |
you gave 34,000 people a reason to be concerned about having to pay the | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
bedroom tax but as a Finance Minister told you, the mitigation | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
payments can be made? The Finance Minister is wrong. And the advice I | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
received from my Permanent Secretary backs that up and stop with clear | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
legal advice from the attorney general, I don't know the Finance | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Minister has consulted the attorney general and maybe he should but I am | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
very concerned and I have taken the unprecedented action after exploring | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
the emergency options to lay down regulations in the Assembly going | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
directly to the Assembly and asking for members to vote on that on | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
Monday, with the speaker and the Business Committee... You have found | :02:59. | :03:07. | |
a way as the Finance Minister said you would? Under normal | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
circumstances you bring regulation to the executor. These are not | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
normal circumstances. We did the regulation to the Executive and | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
because of the actions of Sinn Fein is nonexecutive and I am determined | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
those vulnerable individuals we wanted to protect from the bedroom | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
tax will not be used as part of the collateral damage as a result of the | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
Executive collapse. They will not lose out, 34,000 people will not | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
have to pay the bedroom tax because of mitigation will not have to pay | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
that? If politicians follow the lead I am giving on this. Why would they | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
not? I hope they don't but I have had to take this action, laying down | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
these regulations in the unusual circumstances they are in to protect | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
these individuals. This is not the way you normally conduct business | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
but given the unprecedented circumstances we face as result of | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
the actions of Sinn Fein, I am taking this action based on the | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
clear legal advice that I have received and these regulations will | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
be laid. And that contradicts what the Finance Minister has repeatedly | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
said and has resorted to character assassination whenever he has tried | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
to justify his actions. We can hear from the Finance Minister. Away for | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
mitigation payments to be made has been fined, can you confirm that | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
Sinn Fein politicians on Monday will support what the Communities | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
Minister is doing? This is the fifth time I have put this on the record. | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
There will be no bedroom tax, in a interview on Monday night, Paul said | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
that because the Executive was coming down, he would have to | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
introduce the bedroom tax and he said there is a 99% chance he will | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
have to introduce the bedroom tax and I said to explore that 1%. As | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
long as politicians fall into line and support the actions that he is | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
taking on Monday, it will be sorted? If he had taken my advice on Monday | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
and later in the week there would be no bedroom tax and we fought long | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
and hard against Tory posterity, we got the DUP on that page and we have | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
insisted there will be no bedroom tax here and whether Paul does this | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
through regulation or the mitigation payments, which is able to do so, he | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
is making payments without regulations from his department so | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
he has the ability to make these payments. I am quite relaxed but I | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
am saying tonight to the DUP, you should not have been scaremongering | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
on this issue and also, I am saying to the DUP, there will not be a | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
bedroom tax introduced. Sinn Fein MLAs will support whatever | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
administrative regulation -- legislation is put before the house | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
on Monday? It is the prerogative of the Minister to sort this but Sinn | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
Fein will support him in opposing the bedroom tax. There will be no | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
bedroom tax. We will make sure of that. Paul Givan is planning to | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
bring those proposals directly to the Assembly on Monday. Should your | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
party colleague, Michelle O'Neill, the Health Minister, do the same | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
thing with her proposals to cut waiting lists, which she says she is | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
going to have to drop? They are different issues but you bring us | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
back to the reason why we are in this medical impasse, not of our | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
making, but because of the work of the DUP. We did not create the RHI | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
debacle. You have gone off. If Paul Givan can sort out the bedroom tax, | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
why can't Michelle O'Neill use the same method to sort out the waiting | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
list problem she clearly has? No one is suggesting that can be sorted out | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
by regulation at Stormont. It is different. Paul Givan has to find a | :06:47. | :06:54. | |
way and I have offered him two ways, through his administration... This | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
cannot be introduced on... Why not? They are different things. I want to | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
come back to this point. The impasse were in, none of us are more | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
disappointed than I am as the Finance Minister and the people I | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
meet every day across the community, and we're in this impasse because of | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
the behaviour the DUP. Your powers are limited? You can give two ways | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
to Paul Givan for bedroom tax but you cannot find a way for your own | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
party colleague to sort out the problem for the waiting lists? The | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
Health Minister says she will continue to tackle those issues but | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
I am saying we are moving into an election period and this will be a | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
snap election, the ministers will remain in post for the time ahead | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
but there will be disruption and we understand that the blame for that | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
lies squarely at the door of the DUP. Paul Givan has not engaged in | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
the petty sectarian antics on the eve of Christmas in relation to | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
Liofa, if Arlene Foster did the right thing and stood aside and | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
allowed a proper no hiding place investigation, we would not be... | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
The other view is we are in a situation like this because Martin | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
McGuinness chose to resign on Monday? And across the community, | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
people respect their work, the heroic work that Martin McGuinness | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
has done. That does not mean that they don't wish he'd stayed in the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
job? People could see no great peacemaker and bridgebuilder at that | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
Martin McGuinness, he stretched me and the Republican constituency, he | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
said, let's have a fresh start and we tried that and to bring Martin | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
McGuinness to the point where he had to say, we have to hold this | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
corruption and bigotry... Alleged corruption. We have to draw a line | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
in the sand and say, the refusal of the DUP to engage in proper | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
power-sharing and respect parity of esteem, and I want to say this... | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
This is that wearying part about the DUP refusal to sign up... Can I | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
finish this... Paul did the right thing today. When he restored this | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
but he said he did not do this because he understood it was the | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
wrong thing, it was because he was trying to remove the electoral | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
advantage. People want him to respect ordinary people. Explain | :09:26. | :09:37. | |
where you are with Liofa? I welcome that he recognises that my solution | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
is the way to deal with bedroom tax and that is progress that they will | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
support my approach in dealing with that because I had to find that | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
solution, Mairtin never suggested this solution. You both agree there | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
will be no bedroom tax? My approach was right and I welcome Sinn Fein | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
realising that and in respect of the point that you make, well made, that | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
people on waiting lists, people who will be implicated, having the | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
implications of what the actions of Sinn Fein have, are putting those | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
people, using those people to pursue the party political agenda that Sinn | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
Fein have. That is hugely regrettable. Mairtin O'Muilleoir | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
says you were scaremongering with bedroom tax. Is Michelle O'Neill | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
scaremongering on waiting lists? With the Executive having to go | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
away, into the election, ministers are unable to action certain things | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
and you're seeing the manifestation of that, we don't have a budget | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
because Mairtin failed to bring the budget. Maybe you should have | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
thought more carefully about withdrawing funding from Liofa in | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
December, on the eve of Christmas Eve? We have no budget as a result | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
of the failure of Mairtin to bring the budget whenever there was an | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
opportunity. His Permanent Secretary cannot implement all of the | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
finances... Who is going to suffer? That is not the case on December 23 | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
when you decided to remove ?50,000 from the Liofa scheme? Who will | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
suffer? The people, and politicians need to remember that we are elected | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
to serve the people. So what prompted your U-turn on | :11:10. | :11:20. | |
Liofa? I want to make sure that Sinn -- Sinn Fein are not able to | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
continue this line they had taken. You did not think they would be | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
annoyed about it and might accuse you of that? Give me one minute to | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
explain and hopefully I will do that. Mairtin has said the same | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
thing, that that decision was sectarian. How can a decision be | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
sectarian when the Irish language is for all of our people? That proves | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
the point I keep making, Sinn Fein sectarian iced the language by | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
saying it is the preserve of the republican community and that is the | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
problem. So your solution to the problem was to remove ?50,000 of | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
funding from Liofa? I wasn't prepared to allow Sinn Fein to | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
inflict further damage... So was the Culture Secretary where you were | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
going to make that decision? Had you spoken to her? That decision, the | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
50,000, was my decision about a kid on the basis that it would have been | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
premature commit expenditure in the next financial year. However, | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
recognising... Digital to the First Minister about it? Or any other | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
members of the Executive? No, I didn't. It was a solo run you had to | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
reverse, it was a mistake. Recognising the damage Sinn Fein had | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
been using around the Irish language, I was not prepared to | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
allow that. I want to move on, you say you didn't discuss with the | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
First Minister removing funding on the 23rd of December. Did the First | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
Minister tell you to reinstated? I spoke with the First Minister this | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
morning. Did she tell you to reinstated? If I have the | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
opportunity to give you the answer, I will tell you. I made it clear | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
that my view was that Sinn Fein were using this issue to distract from | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
all of the other issues and I felt it was one damaging to the Irish | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
language and two, used as a political distraction. She said I | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
could act on the basis that I then did act. She didn't tell you to do | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
that, saying you have made a dog's breakfast, you need to sort it out? | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
No, she didn't. I could see what Sinn Fein were doing around the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
Irish language, they have used it as a cultural weapon and that is | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
damaging... With the benefit of hindsight, do you think it was worth | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
all of the first, producing the straw that broke the camel's back by | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
removing that ?50,000 of funding, which is 120,000 of your ?1 billion | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
budget? Liofa has been used as a victory for what Sinn Fein are | :13:52. | :14:02. | |
trying to do, they are trying to use this, to demand Arlene Foster step | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
aside because they want to remove her as the leader because | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
Republicans are frustrated that they are not able to take their agenda | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
forward, whenever it is about... Barry Michael Dobbs said Martin | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
McGuinness resigned because we want a united Ireland, no mention of | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
Liofa. He outfoxed you on Liofa, he spotted what you are out and called | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
your blood? As I said earlier, all of it was dissipated tonight when | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
Paul said the only will reason he made a decision was to get 1-over | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
Sinn Fein and instead of saying he now understands and accepts it that | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
it is wrong to discriminate against... But the DUP minister | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
saying he believes the Irish language is for everybody, due not | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
believe that? Absolutely and it is great to see Paul coming to that | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
with the rest of us but Paul has infected the entire basis of the | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
people who did provide the Irish language. All have his actions speak | :14:58. | :15:07. | |
louder than words in the Irish language, so I suppose the broader | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
point is, when the DUP going to accept the principles of... They | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
might think it is a bit rich coming from Mairtin O'Muilleoir and you can | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
clear this up for us, there was a lot of talk in the week that you | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
remove the union flag on a designated day from your office? It | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
was not a designated day and the flag should not have been flying | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
from my office. It is an issue for whoever put it up. Who did? I don't | :15:32. | :15:39. | |
know and it was put by mistake and I removed it. There is legislation | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
governing this and I observed that legislation, I tried to challenge | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
that legislation because especially at this time... But you're happy | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
enough with the union flag, you accept it will fly over your office | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
on a designated day? It turns out my office isn't a designated office | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
either. On designated days, the buildings are there. I object | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
wholeheartedly, I think there should be two flags or no flag, but that is | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
the law and we will continue to challenge it but in my office, there | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
are no flags up in my office. Let's talk about an election, you seem | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
pretty keen within Sinn Fein to get an election so people can have their | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
say, even though we did seven months ago. What would stop the election | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
train in its tracks? We are going to an election. We are not inevitably | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
going. I think inexorably we are, the people have to be given the | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
opportunity to give their say on the DUP's arrogance and belligerence, | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
they have to have their say on the RHI scandal, Arlene Foster stood up | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
in the Stormont Assembly and said she is the archetype of RHI. We know | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
it is a mess and every day from the public purse, there are allegations | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
of corruption and we know that before Christmas, we saw the most | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
unedifying spectacle in Stormont where the integrity of the office of | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
Speaker was... The Liofa issue has been resolved, bedroom tax is as | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
good as sorted and Arlene Foster said she supports a public inquiry | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
into the RHI scandal. Let's say legacy was sorted out and then offer | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
was put on the table by the DUP, could we not avoid an election? | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
Bedroom tax was never an issue, I was told there would never be a | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
bedroom tax. Let's just talk about the British government, because I | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
see James Brokenshire pretending to be an honest broker in this and the | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
issue of legacy is disgraceful and appalling. He is an honest broker | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
but... They have given the DUP a lot of cover on many things but | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
particularly on the issue of legacy, whether Lord Chief Justice, | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
unprecedented, says to the British, says to the DUP, says to the Deputy | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
First Minister, let's have an inquest and the DUP and the British | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
gang up. We have had this conversation. My point is that if | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
the DUP accepted your argument and said we will move towards you on the | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
issue, for example legacy, would that not be enough for us to avoid a | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
costly election? Credibility in these institutions is shot, it is | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
drained away. How does a fresh election sort that out? I don't | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
think it does but people see through what the DUP are doing. Arlene | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
Foster had a unique opportunity and it is not that long ago since there | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
was an allegation against me which proved to me groundless and | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
insignificant and Arlene Foster shared Maka de Laet said I should | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
step aside. But you didn't. Of course I didn't put if that is the | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
yardstick she is using, why isn't she stepping aside? But by your own | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
yardstick, she shouldn't step aside. Poor, Arlene Foster has predicted if | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
there is an election, it will be brutal, maybe in terms of potential | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
losses for the DUP? We are going to go very strongly to the electorate | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
highlighting what this is really about and what this is about, Sinn | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
Fein had shown what it's about, it is not about RHI. In the letter | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
Martin McGuinness sign in his resignation, it became very clear | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
this is about Sinn Fein frustrated that the key Republican agenda that | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
they have has not been delivered. That is why Barry Mackle Dove said | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
the resignation was about delivering a united Ireland and whenever Sinn | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
Fein, and I can understand why they are frustrated... That cannot be a | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
surprise to you. So does the SDLP. That is exactly why they are trying | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
to bring this to a head, they want to use this to extract and expand | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
Tich for Republicans and we can unionism and we can see exactly what | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
is going on -- extract an advantage. When it was brought down on three | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
occasions, he did so from position of weakness and he always ended up | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
costing unionism. Sinn Fein are bringing these institutions down and | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
should have learned from history. We know, because Gerry Adams has said | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
it, a quality is the Trojan horse to break these and I will not use the | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
foul language that he sought to use against those in the DUP and | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
unionists. Do you seriously think that over the past number of weeks, | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
the DUP has demonstrated a short-handed grasp of the issues and | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
fitness for government, or is it possibly the case that people within | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
your own party, your own grassroots, wondering aloud if you have frankly | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
lost your way in the DUP? No, because at every step, we have been | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
dealing with RHI, we have recognised the flaws that existed when it was | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
set up. Other parties didn't see that. Simo Hamilton came into office | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
and has been seeking to deal with this. You made a mess and now you | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
are looking to deal with it, the point is you made a mess in the | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
first place. We have recognised and Arlene Foster has said the deepest | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
political regret of her career is not having those cost controls in | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
place. You don't just say that and move onto the next thing. There are | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
implications and consequences of an admission like that. Arlene Foster | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
doesn't seem to recognise that fact. You fix the problem and that is what | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
the public expect, not walking away from the challenges, meeting them | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
head on and fixing them and that is what we have been doing and we have | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
sought to have a public inquiry set up because of the election. For a | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
long time coming you said you didn't want a public inquiry, that is | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
another U-turn. We have wanted to have the cost control mechanisms... | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
You have done a U-turn on the public inquiry. Mairtin's officials are | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
dealing with it and hopefully they will give him the advice. Maybe you | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
didn't hear me, you have done a U-turn on a public inquiry. Not at | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
all. Yes you have, the DUP and the Belfast City Council voted against | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
the public inquiry last week, it was so clearly in the house, "There will | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
be no public inquiry". Now all of a sudden the DUP wants a public | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
inquiry, that is a U-turn. Arlene Foster has said we want to get to | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
the truth, as do I, through an independent inquiry free from party | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
political interference so when Mairtin comes on this programme and | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
talks about corruption and says things without any evidence to back | :21:57. | :22:05. | |
things up, quite rightly it is pointed out that these things are | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
alleged because they want to engaging character assassination of | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
Arlene Foster and remover has leader. On Tuesday, your former | :22:10. | :22:11. | |
party leader said within our she would make an announcement about the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
public inquiry. More than 24 hours late, we don't know what is | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
happening. What is the problem? Obviously, there is an ongoing | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
process. There is a sticking point, what is it? We have made it clear | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
that we want a public inquiry but interestingly, Sinn Fein don't want | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
the public inquiry. Why is that? Because the passer Nou Camp family | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
do not want... So no you cannot deliver public inquiry. They are | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
more interested in appeasing the Republican agenda than dealing with | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
the issue. I want to bring in Mairtin O'Muilleoir can, Arlene | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
Foster promised a public inquiry more than 48 hours ago, it has hit a | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
sticking point, you can't bring in a public inquiry? We want the public | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
inquiry. We understand that but you don't seem to be able to deliver it. | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
Let's be clear, part of the reason is because Sinn Fein are pulling the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
shutters down on the institutions. Mairtin O'Muilleoir, where are we on | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
an investigative inquiry? To pick up on Paul given's point, because | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
Martin McGuinness has walked away from the Executive, you cannot | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
investigate the very thing you began this interview talking about as the | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
reason for the collapse of the Executive. I talked about | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
allegations of corruption and the breathtaking arrogance of the DUP. | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
And I talked about the refusal to... But in terms of an inquiry, if wants | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
to bring forward proposals, let him do that. But it is made all the more | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
difficult because of the root Sinn Fein has taken. It has been all the | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
more difficult but we will see what he comes up with. Let's go back to | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
the examples of the arrogance that led us here. Arlene Foster had an | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
opportunity, we need to investigate this botched scheme. She was at the | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
helm and the DUP Finance Minister signed off on it and the economic | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
minister was in the studio making allegations about that scheme. We | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
know it was a mess, it cost us a lot of money and they should have been | :24:20. | :24:21. | |
an investigation. They missed a golden opportunity to say to the | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
public, we understand you believe the DUP lives in a cultural bubble | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
and instead, we will show humility and they didn't. We have an | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
election, that initial assessment and then after the election, we have | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
talks for a limited period to see if we can get the Assembly back up and | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
running? What we have done is called time on the DUP's folly and | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
arrogance and the discrimination and refusal to accept... This is just | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
back and forth. We are back to the issues of equality and back to the | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
issues of the Good Friday agreement. You are in a political vacuum, | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
staring direct rule in the face. People will have a chance to have | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
their verdict on the behaviour of the DUP when time has passed and I'm | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
confident of further people will respond. Gerry Adams has made it | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
clear, equality is the Trojan horse to break unionism and what he really | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
wants is compliant unionists that rolled over to Republicans and time | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
and time again, we will not do that and that's really what Sinn Fein is | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
about because they are frustrated that we won't concede two key | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
Republican demands. We know what you're using it for. If we have an | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
election, there will be ample opportunity for you to to continue | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
this conversation in this very studio if you would like to do so. | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
And joining me now in Commentators' Corner are Deirdre Heenan | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
and Newton Emerson, who've been joined tonight | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
by our Political Editor, Mark Devenport. | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
Lots to talk about. If we pick up with what we have been hearing | :25:52. | :26:00. | |
tonight. Is any clarification on some of those seemingly impossible, | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
intractable issues? That we have been talking about. A few things | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
John died. Mairtin O'Muilleoir said we were inexorably going towards an | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
election and there was a bubble of optimism that the Taoiseach said, | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
there might be direct talks between these parties and the implication | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
was that they could avert this election and we have not had those | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
direct talks, and even if we do, the Finance Minister is giving us no | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
wriggle room, saying the election is coming. The other thing we heard was | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
the admission from Paul Givan that there is a sticking point in Arlene | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
Foster's cunning plan for the enquiry. She said earlier this week | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
that she wanted the enquiry to clear her name quickly and we were told | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
there would be progress within 24 hours. That deadline ran out on | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
Wednesday and we have not heard anything and it looks like no other | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
minister has gone to their age, they might have to do this themselves. | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
There is no love lost between those ministers. In the studio tonight, in | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
front of the cameras. The question is, is at the beginning of the | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
electioneering process? Does that tell us that effectively, for now, | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
relations between the DUP and Sinn Fein have gone? It seems that any | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
process this week is fully, were in the business of electioneering, | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
tonight Sinn Fein members in Derry had a meeting and they were talking | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
about moving towards an election, the DUP said they were getting their | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
candidate sorted. Everything is in terms of positioning ahead of that | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
election and I suppose part of the blame game, so if there is any mess, | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
any messy situation in terms of things going amiss, we will have | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
these parties blaming it on the other side and saying, we're not | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
responsible for this mess. It is you with the RHI work you for pulling | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
out? Eight weeks ago we were told by prominent DUP members and Sinn Fein | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
that they were working hard to get the partnership government really | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
going full steam and anybody who dared suggest things might be more | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
difficult than they were saying was getting their knuckles rapped. Just | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
over one years since the fresh start agreement, when OFMDFM said they | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
would can find the critics and have a new dispensation in government and | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
they would work in partnership but we are witnessing a very public | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
breakdown in relationships and are very toxic relationship and it is | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
difficult to see how they can come together. It was interesting that | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
Paul Givan said the removal of the grant was not political, he could | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
not explain what it was. What he made quite clear was the decision to | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
restore it was a political decision, to get one up on Sinn Fein, this is | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
not an olive branch to say, it was a ham-fisted decision, it was a | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
political decision. It is not in the nature of Sinn Fein to let a good | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
crisis go to waste, but it is a mistake to portray this as some kind | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
of Republican plot against unionism, it is a fact that Sinn Fein tried up | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
to Christmas to avoid this crisis and they tied themselves up in | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
embarrassing knots to get Arlene Foster off the hook so now it has | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
finally come to the red line, Gerry Adams has thrown the ball into the | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
air with gusto. That is something that Sinn Fein has taken upon | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
itself. There is no grand plot against unionism here. The question | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
is, if we are staring and election in the face, what happens when me, | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
to the other end and be presented with precisely the same problems? It | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
looks like the parties will be back in identical proportions as neither | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
party has set out what this election will achieve, if they hope this will | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
defuse the situation, that will not happen with the very divisive | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
rhetoric we have seen already. And it is the other alternative, if we | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
don't manage to get things running again after the election, of a | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
prolonged period of direct rule as Jeffrey Donaldson says is entirely | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
possible. And he is being realistic and some people are talking with | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
nostalgia about direct rule, at least we would have stability. Those | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
people would not be squandering our money. We have to be careful about | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
what we wish for, all of this discussion about welfare, make no | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
mistake, with direct rule we would feel the full force of welfare | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
reform. We would be looking charges we don't have, the tripling of | :30:38. | :30:39. | |
university fees, prescription charges, water charges. If we had | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
Tory ministers coming here, they would not be interested in the | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
particular situation in Northern Ireland and it is incumbent on these | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
people and we voted for to make sure they come to some agreement. We want | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
to be masters of our own destiny, we want devolution but it has to be | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
worked out and this very public breakdown makes it seem very | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
difficult. Mark, is this the bottom line? Were now in the area of having | :31:05. | :31:15. | |
to re-negotiate on a St Andrews style basis, the basis of the | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
agreement needs to be examined? Is that where we are going? It looks | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
like we shall have a long list of demands on either side if we get | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
into a situation of negotiations after the election and it looks like | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
any resolution will take longer than the three weeks set aside for the | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
formation of the coalition. I would agree there is a strong likelihood | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
we will end up having the return of some form of direct rule with a | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
suspension. If you get into the structures, our structures are | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
particularly clumsy because some of the safeguards built in with the | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
Good Friday Agreement have become mutually destructive, vetoes, and | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
any row, whether constitutional or something like welfare reform, like | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
the heating scandal, it is hard to handle. The changes to the | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
structures, the problems will be the main players will be pulling in | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
different directions. Sinn Fein might want to have a change to the | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
petition of concern, meaning it would not just be the DUP who could | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
operate that, would the DUP agree? Nationalists might want to change | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
what is more towards the joint authority model. These changes in | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
the structures will be difficult. And there are other things, at a | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
critical time in terms of Brexit negotiations, whether you are for | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
remain or a loser, Northern Ireland would not be represented at | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
government level, local government level, devolved administration | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
level, in London. And we don't have a plan for Brexit. We haven't set | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
out the options are what will happen, hard, soft, it is as if we | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
don't want to discuss this and this is a huge issue... The reality is... | :32:56. | :33:03. | |
Stormont could not agree on Brexit anyway and Theresa May was not going | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
to give Stormont any say so in literal terms it signifies the | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
issue. It will certainly stir up nationalist anger that we have no | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
say. We are already on an election footing, we have moved away from the | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
heating scandal and we're talking about republicanism against | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
unionism. Final sentence? I think Brexit, the British government will | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
take this decision but it might feature in negotiations because | :33:30. | :33:30. | |
nationalism will want that recognise. | :33:31. | :33:31. | |
I'll be back with Sunday Politics at 11.35am here on BBC One | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
but before we go, the events at Stormont | :33:38. | :33:39. | |
have been the gift that keeps on giving for local satirists | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
and the internet has been coming down with videos, | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
So we leave you with some of the best, | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
thanks to Keith Law and the people at Ulster Fry and Lad. | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
Our efforts as a party have been to try to exploit the Renewable Heat | :33:51. | :34:43. | |
Incentive at a time when we are needing to create more jobs, | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
Northern Ireland needs stability. But because of our selfish actions, | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
we have instability. This is how farmers make money... | :34:53. | :35:11. | |
So what if I forgot our poxy anniversary? | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
Er, I think this year was copper. 14th is poxy. | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
Marriage is a marathon, not a sprint. | :35:19. | :35:20. | |
Like a marathon, you have to keep on going... | :35:21. | :35:22. |