18/05/2017 The View

Accusations of dark money donated to the DUP form the background

Arlene Foster says officials have given the party the all-clear,

Arlene Foster says the latest donation row is a reheated story

stirred up by her political opponents, but refuses

to identify three other people associated with the almost

We dealt with it in the manner in which we needed to deal with it. We

still don't know who the individuals involved are, you say we have to

take your word for it that it was a permissible donation. Yes.

Also tonight, the end of an era in the Republic.

As Enda Kenny steps down as leader of Fine Gael,

we look back at his time in office, and we'll hear live

from Dublin on the two main contenders for the job.

And, vying to take control of Commentators' Corner,

Professor Deirdre Heenan takes on columist Newton Emerson.

In the last election here, just a few months ago,

Arlene Foster faced questions about a significant financial

donation made to the DUP, and her judgment as a political leader.

This time around, the same questions are being asked.

The donation in question centres on money given by Richard Cook,

the chairman of a group called the Constitutional Research Council.

The Electoral Commission says it's not currently

investigating the donation, but that hasn't stopped questions

from the DUP's opponents about who else contributed money

and the membership of the CRC, details of which Mr Cook and the DUP

I began by asking Arlene Foster if she knows who precisely is behind

the ?435,000 donation. In relation to the donation we have

satisfied ourselves that it kept within all of the rules and was from

UK businessmen. We are quite satisfied in the way it has been

handled. This is a reheated story. We dealt with it back at the time of

the Assembly election and we are dealing with the same story again.

No new information at all. We have to ask ourselves why that is the

case. Sinn Fein is trying to deflect attention from the real meaning of

this election which is about the union trying to make sure it's the

core of this election. I know you want to talk about other issues and

so do I but the reason I think it's relevant at the moment is in

February this year said Jeffrey Donaldson who got that donation for

the DUP said he didn't need to know the identity of the true donor, but

that's not correct in fact. Do you know the full identity of the

individual or individuals who gave that money to your party? We are

satisfied that people who gave the donation had every right to give the

donation and they are UK business people. Are you satisfied because

someone has told you that or do you actually know? As I understand it

you have to provide that information to the Electoral Commission. And we

have provided all the information we need to which is why this is a

reheated story by political opponents. So you know who made the

donation? Yes. So why won't you say? This is becoming a circular

argument. When you say you've gone further than you had to buy naming

Richard Cook and the CRC, why not now that there is further questions,

why not clear the matter up by saying by the money came from? The

money came from the CRC and they got the money from a number of donors

who are UK business people and we are satisfied we have accounted for

all of the rules. As far as I'm concerned that's the end of the

matter. Except it might not be because as I understand it, Sinn

Fein has issued a statement saying it is meeting the Electoral

Commission about this subject. Your political opponents aren't going to

let it go, you could deal with it by simply naming the individuals.

Unless there's a reason not to? I have said that we have been very

clear about making sure all of the rules were complied with. Whether

Sinn Fein meets the Electoral Commission. I met them this morning

in relation to polling agents and Sinn Fein polling agents taking

information out of schools at polling stations. I met the

Electoral Commission today and they will meet them tomorrow, that's what

we do. If you were the leader of a political party in GB you would be

required to name the donors. As you know the rules are different here in

Northern Ireland. We've asked for the rules right across the UK so

that Sinn Fein would have to tell us where they get their donations from.

They are happy with the way that we have dealt with this matter and that

is the end of the matter as far as I am concerned. Sir Geoffrey was asked

if he knew that Richard Cook who runs CRC was involved in running an

investment business with a former head of Saudi Arabian intelligence.

He said he didn't know that. I think maybe that raised a few eyebrows

because if there had been the proper kind of due diligence undertaken by

the DUP in receipt of the donation, that is the kind of information that

would have been thrown up. Why proper checks carried out? What has

that got to do with the CRC of which Richard Cook is the chairman, and

the money we received from Brexit? Two plus two does not equal 24. The

facts are that we have answered all of the questions which the Electoral

Commission have asked, they are satisfied we have done everything in

accordance with the law and I am satisfied that we have. Behind all

of this is the fact that people didn't like that we were part of a

national campaign in relation to Brexit. We had taken our position up

as a UK party and there's nothing to see. So people aren't going to know

and you aren't going to tell them? We've gone further than any other

party in Northern Ireland. Not as far as some people want you to go.

We have accorded with the law and that is what we must do. You don't

think this could be seen as a question of judgment on your part?

Under your leadership the party chose to accept a donation of

?435,000 and keep the detail of the donor secret. You could be construed

as looking evasive on the subject. Mark, this is a reheated story from

the Assembly election for the purposes to distract from the real

issues. Sinn Fein have brought millions upon millions of pounds

into Northern Ireland and nobody has known where that money has come

from. We took money from the CRC to fight the Brexit campaign and have

accorded with all the rules and regulations that we needed to deal

with. You are criticising Sinn Fein for not being open about its

donations but you won't be fully open about this very large donation.

We received the donation from the Constitutional Research Council, we

dealt with it in the manner we needed to deal with it. We still

don't know who the individuals involved in the CRC are. We have to

take your word for it that it was a permissible donation? Yes. The

Electoral Commission, set up to manage these things, are quite

satisfied. Note issue with your judgment on this matter? None at

all. Your judgment has also been called into question at the weekend

when you referred to Michelle O'Neill as "Blonde". Do you accept

that was a mistake? Are you going to read the context of the comment?

I've read it in great detail and the context is interesting. Do you

regret calling her blonde? It was meant as a compliment, because we

were talking about... But it was a mistake on reflection. It wasn't a

mistake. It was a word association game and I think Michelle presents

herself as a professional and it was meant as a condiment. It hasn't been

taken as a compliment. It's not the issue we are dealing with in this

election and I hope we don't spend this interview talking about matters

that the population aren't interested in. But they are

interested in is the union and whether we will have representation

in Westminster. I think they are interested and want to know about

the judgment and the leadership skills of individuals in charge of

the parties in Northern Ireland. You don't regret the fact now that that

has become an issue which has dominated the public discussion over

the last five days? There's a difference between... It was a silly

judgment on your part. I didn't think it was. I think I was being

open with the journalists. Maybe you would rather I was left open with

people. Now you want me to be guarded and not open. People know

that I say it how it is and that's exactly what I did. It does

frustrate me that we are talking about these issues instead of the

issues around the union, representation, the restoration of

devolution, the fact we need influence at Westminster. The

difficulty for you now is that during the last campaign your

attempts to impose on the unionist electorate managed to galvanise the

nationalist electorate and you are doing it against PLO I'm not and in

the last election I said the choice was simple. The choice was clear. I

said the election was going to be terribly close. I was poo-pooed for

that by many. They came within 1200 votes of becoming the last party.

Actually all the things I said would happen if Sinn Fein had an increased

mandate happened, and that's what happened. In terms of our own vote.

As you note our boat increased numerically, despite all that was

going on at that point in time -- as you know, our vote. Yours went down.

That's not actually correct. You lost ten seats. Sinn Fein were

within 1200 votes. There is a real wake-up call for unionists. You

called it a wake-up call, that's not a good result. The last election was

a perfect storm. We were under incredible attacks from both sides.

Personally I was buffeted by everyone, not least the media and

political opponents. I think the fact we came out with 225,000 votes

was a good result. You and your opponents, many commentators have

said it proved to be a gym and is recruiting service for Republicans

-- a tremendous recruiting service for Republicans. 225,000 of our

supporters came out and supported the DUP at the last election. You

said there would be no Irish Language Act on your watch, has your

position changed? We've had an engagement with the Irish language

community which has been a user engagement. I'm going to continue

with that, it hasn't completed yet and we will deal with all of these

issues in terms of the talks. Has your position softened? The position

at that time was that Sinn Fein were just talking about the Irish

Language Act and nothing else. We've managed to widen the conversation to

talk about culture, identity, Ulster Scots, British culture as well as

the Irish language. We are looking at all of those issues in the talks.

I've yet to be convinced that there is a need for an Irish Language Act

but the conversation continues. You aren't completely ruling it out?

It's a difference of emphasis, is it fair to say? It is a different

emphasis because we have moved the conversation on, not just looking at

one part of culture. Michelle O'Neill told me last week's

programme that she would support legislative protection for Ulster

Scots and orange culture if you agreed to an Irish Language Act. Do

you welcome that? Yes I do welcome the fact we are looking at Ulster

Scots, orange, British affirmation of identity. As you know, I've been

getting a better understanding of the Irish language as well. Certain

people think you don't have a political view on the Irish

language. You said you would listen to and engage with those without a

party political background. Why did you need to qualify who you would

and wouldn't meet? I think it has been turned into a political issue.

It is political. It has become a huge party political issue and

that's what I want to do, to try and take the heat out of that

politicisation of the Irish language. How does your engagement

qualify as nonpolitical? What I was meaning was to say there have been

very much use of Irish language to batter unionism. We've seen it in

the chamber, and the way that people use Irish language to batter each

other. Maybe they just love the Irish language. The way it is used I

don't think that is the case. When I people who genuinely love the Irish

language and the way they speak, I think there's a huge difference in

the way they love the Irish language.

That does not diminish your sense of Britishness to hear people using the

Irish Language Act? You want to see a return to the devolved

institutions as soon as possible? Absolutely, this is part of what

we're talking about in this election, one of the five key pieces

is around the restoration of devolution, we wish that happened

already because we could have dealt with these issues any devolved

administration but Sinn Fein are taking the party political route to

say that until these issues are sorted out they will not go back to

devolution. That is the problem. They are holding everybody else to

ransom. Michelle O'Neill is sticking to her position, they will not

support you in office until after the RHI Inquiry has reported and

that could be two years, Michelle O'Neill said it will take as long as

it takes so if you are determined to come back, devolution will not

happen, you are holding people to ransom! That is a very skewed way to

look at this, the people of Northern Ireland gave me a mandate, we have

heard about respect from Sinn Fein, they need to respect my mandate as I

will respect their mandate and they must respect that two-way process.

Michelle O'Neill is clear she will work with you as the DUP leader and

has no difficulty with that but would not support you as First

Minister and is very clear that it is up to her and Sinn Fein to see

who it is and is not prepared to share power with. What is

unreasonable about that? If the people are going to be deprived of

devolution because Michelle O'Neill does not want to share power with

me... Despite the fact that... You must let me finish... Because the

people of Northern Ireland voted in a particular way. This is not about

me, this is about getting devolution restored for the people of Northern

Ireland to deal with health, education and the community services

that they are being deprived of, this is about a mandate I have

received to represent... Can you imagine if I said I will not share

power with Michelle O'Neill? With someone else? Caldera Sinn Fein held

the unionist people who their leaders should be? It is an outrage

and people recognise that. If it is not about you, should you not

consider the speedy rest duration of the exaggerations by putting

somebody else in as First Minister? -- speedy restoration. The

institutions. The people gave their answer in the last election and the

answer was they wanted me to be First Minister by leading the DUP.

If your colleagues turned out to be more interested in the return of

Stormont and they are a new coming back as First Minister, you have a

problem. Is there any evidence of that? You tell me. There is no

evidence of that. I lead a very unified party, I have been across

the country and will continue with my colleagues because we focus on

the election in front of us, which is about the union. One year ago we

had so much political capital and you are fighting very hard to stop

the loss of unionist influence here in Northern Ireland and across the

water in Westminster, have you thought about that? Events, dear

boy. And strong leadership comes forward, they deal with the issues

they do not run away and stay with what is in front of them, and I will

keep talking about the value of the union because it is so important to

us socially, politically, economically and culturally and we

need to make sure it stays in place. Arlene Foster talking

to me earlier today. The decision by European leaders

to put the Irish border at the centre of the Brexit

negotiations has meant a familiar journey across the Irish Sea

for broadsheets and broadcasters There was a time when they came

here to report on the Troubles, but now the dividing line

between Northern Ireland and the Republic has taken

on a different significance, This is a reality of Belfast today.

Bombs in the city centre, so much disruption. Back to the destruction

and misery of one year ago. The casualty list is 160... For decades

you could always find a story in Northern Ireland. But times have

changed and some felt there was less to write about. So what do

journalists from outside Northern Ireland expect their stories to be

about? The Troubles, the peace process, perhaps the restoration of

devolution? These narratives they have got to know over the years and

they hope to understand. But there are signs of change, signs that the

stories are about the border and about Brexit. Some were a little

slow to cotton on to the relevance at first, well they have done so

now. But it is a new story and they are still learning how to tell it.

That can provide unusual challenges for broadsheet journalists here.

Dealing with news desks across the water. My job on the ground is to

impose some gravity on some of the stories, to pull it back to Earth.

For example, some people assume in London but because a segment of

unionist population voted to stay in the UK, suddenly due to Brexit they

are born again united Ireland supporters, that is not the case and

things have not changed that much in terms of the cottagey sharpish. The

other assumption that is made across the waters sometimes is that Brexit

will somehow lead to a renewal of conflict. Again, I have to impose

the gravity here and say that on the ground that is not the case, for a

variety of reasons. This new Brexit narrative came as a shot in the arm

when the chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier put the Irish border

in his top three big issues. London was not paying much attention, he

came here and that look things up because they began to realise that

it is going to be the only land border between the UK and Europe and

the fact that it looked bad, I think, in the eyes of British

Government to think that Europe was paying more attention to the border

issue and London. It is London's border, it is their thing. There has

been a certain amount of lip service with saying, we care deeply about

this. Tonight we live in Northern Ireland, and the general election

campaign has been dominated by the impending split from the European

Union which has in turn hardened the old sectarian rivalries. Does

anybody want to change this? This is a border, you're in the Republic and

I am in Northern Ireland. Or the UK would ever you want to call it. It

was Brexit about the BBC's Newsnight programme to Belfast this week. I am

not sure if people perhaps in the south-east of England think it

matters to them. But it does. And I think that is an issue and how we

report. And I think the more reporting that comes from without

that metropolitan... It is not a bubble but it is the focus, the

better it is that news reporting from around the UK is very important

and it is important that they understand the implications for

Northern Ireland. This new story should run as long as the

negotiations do. But who knows how long those watching now will stay

interested? Will Leitch on the changing face of

the Northern Ireland story. Enda Kenny has been labelled

"the unlikely Taoiseach" and "the accidental Taoiseach"

but in a short time he'll be the ex-Taoiseach after standing down

as leader of Fine Gael last night. The race to succeed him is now

on with Leo Varadkar and Simon In a moment I'll be talking

to the journalist Mary Minihan But first, how will history

remember Enda Kenny? He is an extremely lucky person,

yes, but he has had huge longevity which allowed things to happen. 41

years at Leinster house as a TD and he went incurred young and

astonished everybody in 2001 when he announced that he wanted to lead

Fine Gael and by extension become a shock. I think he understands

people, he is very affable and likeable and has a very sunny

disposition. Very optimistic and positive. For that and other

reasons, is considered to be a little bit lightweight by some

people, frequently his own party leaders over the years did not

especially Britain Northern Ireland was never a huge on his agenda, it

rarely is with Fine Gael. But especially, it is not to be

dismissive of Northern Ireland or the importance of it. It is

essentially that the economy was the thing. I think he will be mostly

remembered for fixing the economy of four of the economy being fixed on

his watch. Now, he goes out on a high, perceived to have launched the

Brexit negotiations in a favourable climate for Ireland.

And the Irish Times reporter Mary Minihan joins me now.

Welcome to the programme. John Downing referring to Enda Kenny as

likeable, affable and a great survivor but he has been under

pressure to go for quite some time? He has indeed. And the 20 16th

general election was a very bad and for Enda Kenny and the Fine Gael

party although he did manage, against the odds and expectations,

to hold on Npower as Taoiseach. But really, this government and the last

government has been plagued by problems involving water charges,

the attempts to introduce them which have proved difficult for the

government and they have faced resistance on that. And also various

crises within the police force, that has been a very problematic area for

Enda Kenny and resulted in various scandals and also the resignation at

one point of his Minister for Justice, who went on to describe him

as having a very casual relationship with the truth. But he has had an

amazing stretch, I suppose, since coming into politics in 1975 and

reaching the pinnacle, the summit of Irish politics as Taoiseach, more

recently. He is a very conservative, west of Ireland man and yet he

oversaw the same-sex marriage referendum in 2015, so he has had a

mixed bag of a career, John Downing mentioned his engagement with

Northern Ireland being limited and he did receive some criticism for

that. I think, like a lot of departed working party leaders, he

is probably better regarded abroad and at home and I am thinking of

other leaders such as maybe Tony Blair or perhaps Bertie Ahern. In

your view, is a natural successor? There are certainly two contenders.

They have announced their intentions to take over Fine Gael and also to

become Taoiseach, they help. One of them is Leo Varadkar, he is 38 and

Simon Coveney, 44, they are both current ministers in the government

and I suppose that given their ages, relatively young on the political

scene, there is an idea of the torch passing on to the new generation.

Just to paint a picture of who they are, Leo Varadkar is a young, gay,

half Indian politician and that demonstrates just how much the

Republic of Ireland has changed. And there is much more focus on his

political legacy. He was a former minister for health and why my

portfolio is very often and poisoned chalice in the Republic, as with

other jurisdictions... He managed to survive the relatively unscathed.

And his opponent, Simon Coveney, he is a more traditional Fine Gael

politician, he would have been the manager for agriculture and is

Minister for Housing and he is a married man with three children and

he is a different count of politician and is trying to put

forward and reach back into the history of Fine Gael, remembering

Garret FitzGerald, the former Taoiseach and bring that count of

party. We were just looking at the DUP connections, both of them

visited Northern Ireland, we saw Leo Varadkar in Derry with Jim Wells and

Simon Coveney, the First Minister from the Republic to attend a DUP

conference in 2012. How much do you think Ealing with Northern Ireland

will be an issue for whoever takes over as Fine Gael leader and as

Taoiseach? It is absolutely inevitable that Northern Ireland

will play a very important role because of Brexit. It has been the

biggest shock to hit the Republic and in some senses the Republic

could almost be the Silent victim. Both candidates have prioritised

Northern Ireland, Simon Coveney most recently, this morning saying he

wanted to bridge various divides and he talked about Northern Ireland and

the Republic of Ireland in that regard. We will keep a watchful eye

on developments. Thank you. Let's hear what Deirdre Heenan

and Newton Emerson make Before we talk about Arlene Foster.

Your thoughts? How will history judge and? Like most politicians he

will have a mixed legacy and on a personal level he carried his office

very lightly, he was very affable and friendly, he stopped to speak to

people, that was his manner and people liked him for that, there was

a warm. He steered the Republic through a crippling recession and

equal marriage will go down as one of his successes but the other side

is he had a very difficult time over water charges and has had a very

difficult time around corruption and the whiff of corruption. A mixed bag

but he has been pragmatic and innovative and he will be remembered

kindly. At one stage, 2007, he said that to be a successful leader of

Fine Gael you need to have the reputation of Michael Collins and

Mohammed Al EX mac he is reported as the Taoiseach that saved Ireland

from bankruptcy. But he will be remembered more clearly for same-sex

marriage, it is big social policy milestones that go down in history,

not economics and trade and he wants his legacy to be the Brexit

negotiations but that will fade quickly. Because the successor will

do that. Let's talk about the Arlene Foster

interview. First of all on the subject of the Brexit donation which

she clearly wishes would go away and says is a reheated story, and her

line tonight is, take my word for it, this donation was absolutely

within the rules, end of story, move on. I think that interview raised

more questions than it answered. People aren't going to be satisfied

with it. She says that they have answered the questions, but she

clearly hasn't. She's saying this is a Sinn Fein agenda, it isn't a Sinn

Fein agenda. All of the political parties want to know the answer.

It's clear the money was funnelled to the DUP because of the particular

rules in Northern Ireland around the disclosure of donors. I think the

key point to come through in the interview is about judgment. Why

would you do this, why would you say we didn't know, we don't need to

know? Actually you do need to know who's giving you money. She was very

clear that the Electoral Commission is happy with the donation, and the

commission confirmed to us today that it is currently not

investigating that donation. I understand that the commission

sometimes struggles with its workload and while it saying it

isn't currently investigating that it doesn't mean it might not still

have issues to look at. It's also made clear... All we know is that it

isn't currently looking at the donation. It also said its

restricted in what it can say. There's very little we can say about

this while there is donors secrecy in place. This is held in place by

the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Office... Arlene

Foster made the point that she doesn't have to give any further

information and has in fact given more information than currently

required. You have to separate that out from the fact that the party

needs to know the information, they need to report it to the Electoral

Commission and it has to police said. She says that has been done.

It's not true to say she's gone further than she needs to. There are

questions that need to be answered. It was on this programme she said, I

don't know where the money came from, I don't know how much money

there is. You have to know the answer to those questions. The

commission says it is happy that the issue isn't being investigated

currently, let's see how that develops in the future. On the issue

of judgment again, we raised her comments about Michelle O'Neill,

asked to describe her in a word association game and she said

blonde. She avoided that initially and then was encouraged to make the

statement that she thought might be construed as sex it. That goes back

to judgment. The reporter says, I'm going to ask you this question, she

said I don't want to answer. Then she said, well, OK, and she reversed

back into the hole and she answered the question. That comes back to

political judgment. She said it was a compliment. It's clearly

dismissive. You don't play word games with journalists, you don't

behave in that way. She's moved a little on the Irish language but is

basically showing arrogance and an inability to learn.

That's it from The View for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35pm here on BBC One when I'll

be talking to the Ulster Unionist leader, Robin Swann.

The first leaders debate to play some ITV tonight and as we know it's

all about name recognition. Banks were watching. Do you think they are

going to stay there? Of course not. 6000 jobs in Wales you were willing

to lose. APPLAUSE Social care has often been the poor

relation to the NHS. I think Natalie is absolutely right... I'm not

Natalie, I'm Leanne. Women's. I'm sorry about that.

this Blame Game finger-pointing is catching.

The fabulous Stephen K Amos joins Neil, Colin,