02/11/2017 The View

They've had time and space to reach

a deal - and failed.

As the Secretary of State confirms

the Stormont budget will be brought

forward at Westminster,

we ask can anything be

done to revive a talks

process on life support?

Welcome to The View.

With James Brokenshire adamant we're

not looking at direct rule just yet,

where does that leave the talks

process and the prospect

of restoring devolution?

We'll hear from the DUP's

Gregory Campbell in Foyle,

Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd

and the Alliance Party

leader, Naomi Long.

They are with me in the studio.

Plus, after Peadar Heffron's

powerful interview, we're asking,

nearly 20 years after Patten's

new beginning for policing,

are there elements in nationalism

which will never fully

embrace the PSNI?

And back in Commentators'

Corner, it's Fionnuala

O Connor and Alex Kane.

Hello.

On Monday night it looked

like that elusive deal might

finally be within reach.

What a difference

four days can make.

As of now, the talking has ground

to halt and a budget looks set

to go through Westminster

the week after next.

So where did it all go wrong,

and is there any hope of getting it

right before big financial decisions

are taken out of local hands?

Gregory Campbell in Derry, is that

it, or is this talks process still

going on?

It needs to go on, and we

need to reach a satisfactory

conclusion. A satisfactory

conclusion is one where people

across the community are content and

satisfied that it is a win-win, that

we all move forward, that health,

education, all the other issues get

the much-needed resources that they

require and that we start delivering

for the people of Northern Ireland.

That needs to be the outcome.

Sources suggested things were going

pretty well on Monday, there was a

spirit of optimism and something

happened on Monday night and into

Tuesday morning. What was that? Did

the DUP get cold feet over the Irish

language act?

No, we have heard

these sources being quoted over

ministers and others in Dublin,

people in London, all sorts of

people talking up the prospects, and

then others dampening down

prospects. You get this speculation.

The gap has narrowed over the course

of the last few weeks, but we are

not at a point where we can conclude

the deal, because we are not there

where everybody feels that this is

going to be a win-win position. At

the moment, there are still gaps and

we need to close those gaps and get

the deal over the line.

John

O'Dowda, the gap has narrowed. Is

that how you see it?

There has been

progress, but insufficient progress,

because if there was enough

progress, we would now be sitting in

an executive assembly. We would be

ensuring that the rights of all our

citizens are protected, and that is

a win-win situation favourably,

because the protection of people's

rights does not alienate or threaten

anyone, and it is not a loss for

someone, it is a win for everyone.

So when Sinn Fein have been in these

talks, we have been in gauged on the

basis of working for the rights of

all citizens. The people we are

speaking about half are not all

voters for Sinn Fein, and some of

them may never vote for Sinn Fein,

but it is with rights and

entitlements for everyone.

We know

that, with the greatest respect I

think we have heard that articulated

many times over the past eight

months or thereabouts.

But it hasn't

changed.

But it is interesting the

Gregory Campbell says that the gap

has narrowed, the British and Irish

Lions ons have suggested the gap is

particularly narrow at this stage,

progress has been made, and do you

accept that the gap is not now what

it was a few months ago.

We can all

get around a table and argue whether

the gap has narrowed or not, but

that is a waste of time.

Has

progress being made or not?

It is

speculation.

Do you tell me, do you

think the gap has narrowed, yes or

no?

That speculation is an helpful

to the process because we need to

have a meaningful talks process

around the table and bring it to a

conclusion. We can speculate in

studios for the next period of time

over the size of the gap, but let's

get into meaningful talks and

resolve the issue.

Can you point to

anything that is less of an issue

now than it was weeks or months ago?

Because that is what Gregory

Campbell seems to be suggesting is

the case.

I'm not going to negotiate

on here, that isn't helpful to

anyone.

I'm just asking for some

sense of whether or not there is any

progress.

The fact that we are

sitting here without an executive

and without an assembly tells me

that has been insufficient progress

across a wide range of interests.

But has the bin a narrowing of the

gap? Wires that are difficult

question.

It isn't a difficult

question, it is a pointless

question.

Naomi Long, I haven't got

anywhere with John O'Dowda. Do you

think the gap has narrowed? Is that

a meaningless question to ask?

We

are not in a position to judge,

because the two parties have

essentially lock themselves away in

a room together to have these

discussions, and the rest of us are

essentially now just feeding into

that process as we meet the parties

individually, but we are not in a

position to judge whether the gap is

wider or narrower than it was. But

the gap was never that wide to begin

with. There is this huge gulf that

needs to be crossed, we are not in a

situation like in 1998 where we were

talking about people making massive

changes to their political stance.

These are relatively small issues

that could be resolved if the wheel

is there. What I don't detect from

outside the room and what the public

don't detect from outside the room

is that there is any attempt being

made by either party to prepare

their constituencies for a deal. In

that context, the only conclusion we

can reach is that a deal is not

imminent. While I -- where I agree

with both Gregory and John is that

we don't need to look at what

percentage of the gap is closed, we

need to see the gap completely

closed because what people want is

the restoration of the institutions,

they want it to be more stable than

it has been in the past and more

reliably able to deal with the

challenges that Northern Ireland

faces, and nothing we have heard

this evening suggest that we are

about to enter into that kind of an

executive.

Have you been hearing, as

we have, that it still comes down to

the thorny issue of a stand-alone

Irish language act? Sinn Fein wants

it, the DUP doesn't?

It is certainly

one of the issues, but it isn't the

only one...

But is it the key issue?

For us it isn't, but obviously it is

one of the issues that has caused

this stand-off, and it is for that

reason that we have put forward

solutions to try to ensure that we

do have the protections that are

required for the Irish language,

that we do that in a way that is

proportionate and deals with

concerns others might have over what

those concerns would look like. We

have been proactive in putting

forward solutions I think the public

of recriminations and arguments.

What they want to hear our

solutions, and that is what we are

trying to focus on, but it is

difficult for us to play a

constructive role when we can't be

in the room looking into the whites

of other people's rise to know

whether they are serious about

getting this over the line or

whether this is simply about

allowing the drift to continue until

the first person blinks and walks

away, because nobody wants to be to

blame for the collapse of these

institutions, and so we need to know

whether people are serious or not

about getting a solution, because it

is only one we know that they are

serious that we can start to get

progress.

Gregory Campbell, are the

DUP serious about negotiating to get

a resolution to the outstanding

issues?

We have been serious about

it for months.

It is a process, and

not of a body things all of the

parties have been serious about that

process.

That maybe, but our view

was at the start and remains now

that with no red lines and no

preconditions, we will set up

government tomorrow.

So the

stand-alone Irish language act isn't

a precondition for the DUP?

I don't

know why people keep confusing the

issue of preconditions. An Irish

language act or no Irish language

act doesn't prevent for us a

government being established. We

will establish it tomorrow. There

isn't anything that we require to be

done before we will go into

government. If everyone else could

say that, we would have a government

tomorrow morning at 10:30am in

Stormont.

I think Sinn Fein's

position is that they would have a

government tomorrow if there was a

allowance for a stand-alone Irish

language act. I couldn't tempt John

O'Dowda to talk about whether the

gap had narrowed or not. Can you

tell me what progress actually has

been made. What would you point to

as evidence for people watching this

programme to help them understand

where the progress has happened in

your view?

I can understand the

desire of people to know exactly

what it is is going wrong, what it

is is the stumbling block or

stumbling blocks, and they do want

information and transparency. I

don't think it would be helpful if

we were to itemise now what each of

the issues are that remain to be

concluded. I don't think that would

be helpful. I think what would be

more helpful is if we keep going at

this process until we get it over

the line. If that means people then

need to go away and concentrate and

to review their position, and to

talk to people, then let them do

that, and if that requires a few

days or the weekend, let them do

that, and then we come back, and if

talks can't start again tomorrow, we

understand they should have taken

place today, but hopefully they can

start on Monday, and we can still

get it over the line.

But just to be

clear, I'm assuming that neither

Sinn Fein nor the DUP expect to get

everything on their wish list and

expect the other side to concede

everything that they don't want to

concede. Are you up a compromise?

That's why we didn't make any

preconditions, for precisely that

reason.

So you are prepared to

compromise on some of these dearly

held issues as far as the DUP are

concerned? Just to be clear about

that?

When you say we are prepared

to compromise, we want to have a

position where it is not a winner

takes all. It isn't a winner takes

all, you can't go to the table and

say, here is a list of our demands,

when we get them we will do a deal.

That is not the way you do

negotiations. You have got to try

and say, this is a give and take

process, we will get all that we

want, some of what we want, and we

will have to give something else.

But you cannot do that if those with

whom you are negotiating say, here

is a list of demands, when they are

met we will move, but not until.

But

they take from that that you are

prepared to make concessions if a

dealer to be reached, you understand

that has to be part of the process?

That was our position at the start

and remains our position.

And that

presumably is Sinn Fein's position

as well? You will have to make

concessions to the DUP to reach a

deal?

We didn't have a list of demands.

Gregory talks about setting up the

executive and he talks about that at

1030 a.m. There will be in

executive. Bit is on the basis of

the Good Friday Agreement.

That

position is very well-known. The

point is this, Gregory Campbell

doesn't see it the way you see it.

And that is where you have got to

find a compromise.

The compromises

were found in St Andrews, around the

Good Friday Agreement.

I don't want

a history lesson, I don't want to be

rude. That was to do with the

government promising thing, not the

DUP. We can't recur daily-macro

rehearsed that argument. Is Sinn

Fein prepared to make compromises to

reach agreement?

You don't want a

history lesson you don't want

answers?

I want answers, but not a

history lesson.

This is about the

implementation about outstanding

agreements. The executive, the

assembly only exists on the

foundations of the Good Friday

Agreement, on the foundations of the

St Andrews agreement. That might be

history lesson to you but that is

reality.

He were not prepared to

compromise on that?

He failed to

understand, the Good Friday

Agreement and St Andrews Hall

compromises. You cannot have cut

daily-macro negotiations then reach

an agreement and then say sorry.

Sinn Fein is not prepared to

compromise on, is that what you are

saying?

Why won't you compromise on

the compromises? The agreements

themselves are compromises. We are

seeking the lamentation of

outstanding agreements. That is not

a loss to everyone.

It is a problem

to the DUP if they don't interpret

it the same. There is a look of

incredulity on your face?

We are

still trying to compromise to reach

agreement. If we get this over the

line there will have to be some form

of compromise and ramper sequencing

of how this takes place.

What you

think of what John O'Dowd has said?

There is no sense in which people

will have to accommodate each other.

The reality is, life is a

compromise. If we are going to get

on with people around us, we have to

be willing to work with them and it

means give and take every day. It is

how we work together and what is

demanded of us all the time. We have

got to be able to do that if we are

to deliver. The current process,

where people are locked away in a

room, talking at each other, but not

understanding the challenges each

other have, it's not working. The

fact we are sitting here listening

to Gregory saying, on one hand there

will have to be compromises on all

sides and then on the other hand,

John saying we have already done are

compromising, it we are about

implementation, shows nothing has

moved in the last ten months. The

Secretary of State needs to get a

grip of this, and mediator needs to

work with the parties to try to find

solutions and be in a position to

challenge the intransigence where it

is. There is no one in charge of

driving the process and we are

drifting and it is having a negative

impact, not just on the public

services and public finances, but on

people'sperception of our ability as

politicians to govern Northern

Ireland. And that will not easily be

recovered.

Does that make sense, get

someone in from outside, get

everybody around the table and see

if a new way can be found to break

the logjam?

I suppose it would be a

sad indictment if we cannot resolve

this issue and we have to try and

bring in an outside negotiator.

We

have had ten months, Gregory and you

haven't.

People could say we were 20

or 30 years and we didn't make much

progress.

What do you think about

John O'Dowd has said, you cannot

compromise on previous commitments.

He doesn't have a list of the manse,

he just wants to see things

previously agreed being implemented?

Those agreements are not agreements,

the one he's talking about, they are

not agreements entered into with us.

They were never mentioned in the

lead up to ten months ago. We had a

programme for government that was

issued, published and discussed one

year ago. The Irish language act

didn't feature, it was an campaign

for, it wasn't lobbied for it wasn't

inserted, it wasn't declined because

it wasn't an issue. It was only an

issue in January.

In the absence of

the Good Friday Agreement, if

Gregory is saying he hasn't signed

up to the Good Friday Agreement,

that is a major problem. None of

these situations exist in the

absence of the Good Friday

Agreement. MLAs, ministers,

executive First Minister, Deputy

First Minister, whatever title, they

all flow from the Good Friday

Agreement. A rights -based society

flows from the Good Friday

Agreement. The purpose of the

executive is multifunctional. It is

to run public services but also

deliver the change that was promised

in the Good Friday Agreement.

Is

this what it has been like inside

the negotiating route between Sinn

Fein representatives and DUP

representatives? You just talk that

each other, you can't even agree on

the basic scaffolding of the

conversation?

The conversations

aren't necessarily between Sinn Fein

and the DUP.

The problems between

Sinn Fein the DUP.

There are two

players, the Irish government and

the British government who ago

guarantors of the internationally

binding agreements. They should

agree with the agreements. They

should agree with the Good Friday

Agreement, it is an internationally

binding agreement.

Let me ask you

about the budget and see if we can

move the conversation on. Does

Westminster passing a budget for

Northern Ireland passed the direct

rule?

No, it takes us into no man's

land. The civil servants who are

unaccountable will continue to

disburse 100% of the budget with no

oversight, no political import and

they will be able to do that. There

will be no ministers in terms of

direct rule actually be able to

drive change, make decisions, it

will be disbursed in line with the

previous executive 's priorities and

policies. Any innovation or change

required cannot happen and that is a

major issue, so I don't think it is

direct rule. It is more drift and

this is the problem I sense in

listening to the other contributors.

What we have is this constant drift,

nobody seems to be willing to take

charge and command of the process in

order to bring people to the room

where people acknowledge the Irish

language is on the agenda, Gregory.

People like you have persistently

mocked and denigrated it. You put it

back onto the agenda along with your

colleagues who swept away the need

for grants. People feel it needs

protecting. It is a genuine issue

people daily-macro for people. It is

work that needs to be done in order

to get devolution restored. The

things that matter to you will not

be delivered by direct rule.

Let's

bring Gregory in to respond.

What

Naomi doesn't understand is the

Irish language, at the moment in

2017, and for years, has been better

treated than all other minority

languages in Northern Ireland. What

seems to be required of some people

is that there has to be additional

safeguards on what is already there

at the moment.

What about the

commitment in the St Andrews

agreement?

Commitment between who?

There is a commitment in the St

Andrews agreement that says the

government will deliver an Irish

language act. It is not about the

British government because we don't

have direct rule. But when I spoke

to Dermot Ahern, he said there was a

clear understanding on the part of

the DUP that was agreed and it will

be implemented if devolution was

restored. Is he not right in his

recollection?

He is not right. If

you check the St Andrews agreement

and the assessments of it at the

time and since, he can be as clear

as he wants. The issue you raised

about the budget, two beneficial

effects from the budget. One is, it

allows departmental responsibility

to be carried out and resource,

which it isn't at the moment. The

additional money we negotiated from

the Conservatives several months ago

can begin to flow into education and

health service, then benefiting.

Hopefully nobody will stand in the

wake of that. John O'Dowd, if James

Brokenshire our puts forward a

budget in Westminster the week after

next, Conor Murphy said it is the

end of the current talks process,

the SDLP says it is a return to

direct rule, what the Sinn Fein do

at that time?

James Brokenshire is

going in the wrong direction and has

been told he's going in the wrong

direction by our party. We will

evaluate each stage of this process.

We have said we will evaluate the

previous talks process and where we

go next in terms of if there is

future talks process.

If there is a

future talks process?

Yes, we have

do have a process which is

meaningful.

Is there no talks

process at the moment, as we speak

tonight?

James Brokenshire statement

the other date brought the talks

process we are involved in to a

halt. Some people believe talking is

sufficient in itself, but we have to

bring about resolution.

It is dead

in the water as far as you are

concerned?

The current phase has

come to an end, what we need to do

is move into and meaningful

negotiation.

Thank you all.

Now, are there elements

in nationalism which will never

fully embrace the PSNI?

The issue came to the fore this week

following an interview

with Peadar Heffron,

the former GAA player and police

officer who was severely injured

in a dissident republican car bomb

attack in 2010.

He told the Sunday Independent

he felt shunned by his old club

and some of his team-mates

when he joined the police, and again

after he was badly injured.

The relationship between

the two organisations has

always been complex.

The motion is carried.

At around

6:30 a:m., 33-year-old constable

Peadar Heffron left his home in

Milltown and was on his way to work

in west Belfast. He given about a

mile when the bomb went off. Behind

the coughing, roaming care's mother,

just a day after the murder she

appealed to Catholics in the police

service not to give the terrorists

who killed her son. The village was

at a standstill. The only sound, the

footsteps of the police officers and

GAA players who formed a joint guard

of honour.

Peadar Heffron won the

gay lick football championships at

this club. He also lost friendships.

Shunned by team-mates and lifelong

friends after telling them he was

joining the PSNI.

With me now is the former

All-Ireland champion

and SDLP MLA Justin McNulty,

Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly,

and in our Foyle studio

is and Denis Bradley,

a former vice-chairman

of the Policing Board.

Denis Bradley.

It was very clear from

Peadar Heffron's comments

in the interview he did

for the Sunday Independent

that he is very sore about the way

he was treated by his former friends

and team-mates before

and after the attack.

How do you feel about

what he had to say?

He is a young man who joined the

PSNI early on and I think he thought

he was joining a police force that

had the complete and total

allegiance of the people of Northern

Ireland. I think he thought even

bear to serve his community and it

was back community, along with the

Unionists, but particularly his

community, they were totally and

completely behind him. I think that

we have to listen to what he says

because there is more than a

possibility, there is a thing

nationalism needs to look and hear

what he has to say because sometimes

we stuttered along this issue.

Sometimes we were a bit self

protective. I mean the broad

nationalism, the major institutions

of nationalism like the GAA, like

the church, like some other

political parties, not all of them,

but a lot of the political parties

and areas of the Irish government.

By thing he thought he was entering

into that new arena which was

totally supportive of the police.

Not critical of the police, it is

interesting, nobody would ever

question that as an Irish man

serving the Irish people. I think

Peadar Heffron thought he was

entering into a situation where he

would have the broad support of

people and be accepted as an Irish

police officer serving his people. I

think what he discovered, and we

need to reflect upon this, as a

community of people, now because we

have this contemporary, current

question. Are we completely, totally

committed that every young man and

woman from the nationalist community

in Northern Ireland who joins the

PSNI is in fact a young Irish police

officer or policewoman, who has the

full and total support of that broad

community?

Gerry Kelly, could you

sign up to that?

Yes. We signed up

to the policing service that should

be representative, it should be

accountable and nonpolitical and

nonpartisan.

We want 50/50 recruitment,

particularly to make up the balance

of Catholics and nationalists.

More

than ten years since Sinn Fein

endorsed policing, is there still

within the broader nationalist

community and acceptability issue as

far as young men and women joining

the PSNI is concerned?

What do you

mean by acceptable?

In that they are

not entirely accepted as police

officers from within that community.

You have to talk about this in a

certain way in general, so generally

the vast majority of people do look

upon Catholics, Protestants,

whatever their politics might be, as

joining the police service.

We know

there was a police officer who had a

device under his car in Derry

earlier this year, we know Peadar

Heffron was grievously maimed. So

for some people it continues to be

an issue.

And I agree with that as

well, for some people there is an

issue.

What can be done to make it

not an issue for those people? That

is the point.

The issue of

confidence in policing is an issue

also for the police as well. There

are people who will never, and you

say within nationalism, we're

talking about people who have been

attacked from within certain

sections of nationalism, but there

isn't necessary full support of the

police in unionism as well.

I

understand that. You have argued

this entirely on nationalism, but I

understand that that is because of

the effects.

You are an all Ireland medal winner,

no question about your prowess on

the sporting field, but as somebody

who is passionate about the sport,

do you think there is a problem here

within some elements may be of the

GAA and the broader national

community in accepting policing as

it is.

I can only speak for someone

who has a lot of experience of being

in the GAA, and they have shown a

lot of leadership in the start along

with the SDLP and the Catholic

Church in supporting policing.

Despite opposition from within the

ranks, the GAA still pushed ahead

and abolished rule 21. There is an

unwritten rule which was part of my

experience with every team I have

played, which is you leave your

politics at the door. You leave your

politics at the gate, and I think

the GAA has made brave moves towards

making it more acceptable for people

to be part of the PSNI.

But when you

look at what happened to Peadar

Heffron, that is clearly not the

case. There were individuals

involved in the sport alongside

Peadar Heffron, he clearly in his

view if you read that article

carefully, he feels that there were

former team-mate who clearly did not

accept his decision to join the

police, were not happy about it, and

he suggests that he would have

serious question marks about who was

responsible for the attack that took

place on him.

What happened to

Peadar Heffron was horrific and it

was wrong. The rank-and-file of the

GAA are as disgusted about what

happened to Peadar Heffron as I am.

I can't speak to the circumstances

of the issues around that club at

that time, I can't speak for those,

but I know that the people in the

GAA were disgusted by that would not

support action like that in the

future.

And I'm sure the club would

want to make it very clear it

wouldn't be supportive as a club of

any of the actions that we are

talking about here. It comes down to

individuals at the end of the day.

Do you think that more can be done,

more needs to be done to make people

feel comfortable within their own

community? They will make that

decision, you took a stand and said

people from the nationalist

community should be able to join the

police, and you have just explained

why that is so important from your

point of view. What more can be done

to make it more acceptable and make

sure that there are no more Ronan

Kerrs and no more Peadar Heffrons.

There will be young men at this

point of time deciding whether to go

forward for recruitment to the PSNI,

and they know that there are

dissidents out there and people

disagree, thankfully it is not that

many, but there are attacks on

police officers and Peadar Heffron

is the most traumatic example of

that. But I'm not sure they are so

afraid of that. If they have the

feeling of the confidence that the

total nationalist community in its

multi-representation, GAA

particularly very strong, Catholic

Church very strong, that if they are

convinced that community stands 100%

behind them, that it doesn't be kind

of 90% or 80% behind them, they need

to be fully and totally behind them,

that is what the new dispensation

was about.

And are you satisfied

with what you've heard from Gerry

Kelly and Justin McNulty on that?

Have they been fulsome enough in

giving their support to the new

arrangements? Or can either of them

do any more or say any more, in your

view?

The history of this in my

opinion is that the SDLP work --

were completely on board, and the

others eventually came. The big

moment on policing in Northern

Ireland was Martin McGuinness, when

in 2008 at the death of a police

officer, he stood beside Hugh Orde

and said, when people kill or injure

police officers, they are traitors.

The only way you interpret that is

that they are killing Irish men. And

it has to be like that. In the face

of where we stand at this moment in

time, our politics are not in a

great place, so if I am a young

person and looking at the political

situation, I need to hear very

strong voices coming from the

Catholic Church, from Sinn Fein,

from the Irish government, that they

are 100%, not just 80%, that there

is no tepid nurse about this, they

are not just supportive in a nice

friendly way, that they are

completely and totally behind it,

and that makes my decision to go

forward and join policing much more

comfortable for me and for my

family, because then we are not

facing two situations, one is the

danger of being attacked and the

other is being not completely

accepted within the community

because the community is a bit self

protective.

So there is a danger of

being attacked and also the danger

of being ostracised from your own

community.

Ostracised is too strong.

I wouldn't use that word. But not

being fully, absolutely, totally,

warmly engaged.

Thank you for the

clarification. Can you sign up 100%

about? Are you relaxed about that?

I

am the police spokesperson for Sinn

Fein, so I am the one who normally

talks with this. I would challenge

you to point to any time when I have

been on the media where I haven't

condemned the attacks, wherever

haven't been up front not only would

the police attacks but on dissident

activity entirely, which includes

actively on the ground when they

were trying to intimidate workers in

building site etc. So there is no

Abigail Eddie in this at all.

Let me

-- there is no ambiguity in this at

all. All parties support the police.

I have watched Unionist terror them

asunder over things that have

happened. So that is why I challenge

you when you talk about nationalism.

So yes, I absolutely without

contradiction support the police,

the PSNI. But I will also criticise

them if I believe they are doing

wrong.

And in an article I read that

Dennis wrote, he says it doesn't

mean you can't be uncritical of the

police. You can support the above

also be critical. Your party

chairperson is related in fact to

Peadar Heffron and is on the record

as saying that, and he was very

critical of what happened to Peadar

Heffron and visited the family, as

you would expect. He has made his

opposition to the attack here. His

statement yesterday, let me quote

it. No one should be marginalised

due to membership of the PSNI. Linda

Dillon, your party spokesperson on

victims and legacy. Nobody should be

marginalised because they choose a

career in the PSNI. What language

would you use?

If I were to write a

statement, that is the language I

would use as well.

That is not

enough. Young Irish men and women

who join the gardai are young Irish

policemen and women, and the PSNI

should be held with the same respect

and esteem. There is too much

ambiguity around that statement, it

is too soft. People who join the

police are brave young men and women

and should be supported.

So you

think those statements should have

gone further?

They should be admired

by the community for the service

they provide in keeping people safe

in their homes.

There is the

criticism. I will let you answer it,

but the statements don't go far

enough, that is the criticism.

I

agree with an awful lot of what he

says. This becomes a word game. I

have said absolutely that I support

people, and let me be very personal

about it, there have been people who

have come into my office, who have

asked to be mocked what my view of

it is, and I have said I will

support them in any way they want,

and I have said that publicly on the

TV now. So I don't know where the

ambiguity I am trying to defend

here, it is quite party political,

to be honest.

Saying young people

shouldn't be marginalised is not

saying that you support them joining

the police. It is a vague and it

doesn't give them. I'm delighted you

support them, all parties should

fully support young people who have

the confidence and bravery to go and

do an admirable local profession

which is being the butt of the

police, we should all endorse that.

Would you choose different language

based on what he has said?

I have

talked on this programme before, I

am not been to contradict myself in

another week, but let me say this

very clearly. In issues where the

police are wrong, I will still be

criticising them.

That is not what

we are talking about tonight.

It is,

because he says it is absolute

support no matter what they do, and

that includes individuals within the

police, and they have some

individuals who have acted wrongly,

and I will come out and condemn that

as well.

Have you ever had a

conversation with a young

nationalist who says I fancy a

career in the police, Gerry Kelly,

should I do that or not?

I have had

a conversation similar to it.

And

what did you say?

And they say, they

don't say, should I or should I not,

they say, I'm thinking of joining

the police, do you think it is OK,

would you support me on it? And I

say, I will support you on it, is

there any help you need. I do have

contacted the police, I can guide

them through the process.

So you

would say, yes, it is a decent

career and you should think about

it.

Yes. They are Irish people in an

Irish police force.

All right. The

last answer very quickly on this. Do

you believe, and I would ask you to

be brief, do you believe GAA members

can at the moment join the PSNI and

continue to live critically in their

own communities and play for their

local clubs?

I think the GAA have

done good work, I wouldn't be

completely critical of them. Sinn

Fein is powerful in this and I think

it is important that they go the

extra step, not just of condemning

with actively encouraging young

people to get involved, but I also

think they have a big role to play

in this. They need to speak loud and

clear. There is a new recruitment

drive going on at the moment, and

I'm told that actually they want

people from the west of Northern

Ireland actively joined, and they

are having some difficulty in that

direction. I think the government

can give a lead and Sinn Fein need

to get behind that, the SDLP needs

to get behind it and the Catholic

Church, particularly the GAA.

We are

out of time.

We are the ones who say

that they need to go into the

working class areas.

Folks, we need

to leave it there. Thank you all

very much indeed for joining us.

Let's hear what tonight's

commentators make of what we've been

discussing, and it's a welcome

return to Alex Kane

and Fionnuala O'Connor.

Welcome to you both. I want to hear

your thoughts, first of all on that

conversation that we have just had.

Do you believe there is a problem

with policing, and some elements

within the nationalist community?

Yes, and I do believe that there

will be continuing to be trouble,

and particulars with Denis saying,

and he has worked so hard on this,

people in every community in

Northern Ireland should be welcomed

and encouraged to go into the PSNI,

and you ask could they still live in

their communities? Nobody can say

that confidently because dissidents

are targeting Catholics in their

homes when they join the PSNI, so

that is a big problem. And they are

caught between the terror of the

dissidents and the lingering

suspicions about the PSNI whose

refusal to examine collusion in the

past and refusal to face up to

inadequate catholic representation

in the PSNI at the present will

continue to fuel.

Alex, what did you

make of that exchange in particular

between representatives of the SDLP

and Sinn Fein?

I think it is clear

that Sinn Fein and the SDLP, the

GAA, as organisations, have crossed

that particular Rubicon in terms of

young nationalists being members of

the PSNI. The equally clearly there

are sections of nationalism and

republicanism which will not cross

the Rubicon, and it doesn't matter

tonight what Justin Dennis any one

else says about that, those people

will never believe that nationalists

should be involved in the police

force, it is that simple.

I don't

know what you made about the

conversation about talks about talks

at top of the programme, but if it

gives us any hint as to what the

debate might be like in the

negotiating room, maybe it is no

great surprise that a resolution to

outstanding issues has not yet been

reached?

The irony is that he said

it clearly more clearly than John

was able to, he said, Gregory, the

problem why it became an issue was

people like you treated it with

contempt. She also said, she then

tried to say to balance it with

things that Sinn Fein have to do

about devolution, and that wasn't

nearly as clear. She knows perfectly

well that John is right, that

arguments were made in the Good

Friday Agreement and have not been

implemented, the DUP never did sign

up, and the fact they fought to the

last minute against the Good Friday

Agreement, so nobody could have

expected them to prevent it, but

that is the basic problem.

Alex?

I

was interested when I came in the

ceiling of both the DUP and Sinn

Fein were debating this, because it

has been months since they sat down,

and I thought we might learn why,

was the gap small, could it be

resolved fairly quickly? We were not

even clear there was a talks

process! Gregory seemed to think

they could be in tomorrow, and John

was saying, there isn't even a

process at the moment. I think the

difficulty is, I think Sinn Fein and

the DUP could compromise, but the

grassroots to want to this time.

We

don't know if the talking continues

or not, there is a lot that we don't

know! Thank you very much for

joining me tonight.

That's it from The View

for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics

at 11.35 here on BBC One.

For now, though, we leave

you with a reminder of the pressing

nature of political deadlines -

every last one of them.

Bye bye.

# Ring, ring, ring as the telephone

# The lights are on but there is

nobody home...

There is a sense of urgency of what

is at hand here, there was a

three-week window. We are now

entering the final few days open to

the political parties. We now have a

short window of opportunity. The

current situation cannot drift on

for very long at all. Yes, there is

this window of opportunity. We

legislated to extend the deadline

for the formation of an executive.

The coming hours will be crucial. It

is my strong wish to do this as soon

as possible. We have obviously now

passed a point where it is not

possible in my judgment for a budget

bill to be provided here in Northern

Ireland. There are consequences of

not being able to get that agreement

at this point in time.