09/11/2017 The View

A reckless departure

from devolution, or the only way

forward for a cash-strapped Northern

Ireland?

Either way it's full steam ahead

for that long-awaited Budget Bill.

So where does that leave

the prospects of doing

a deal at Stormont?

Welcome to The View.

Tonight, with the budget set to go

through Westminster next week,

is that effectively direct rule?

The Government insists

spending will simply follow

Stormont priorities -

but our local politicians remain

spectators to the process.

I'll be talking to the leader

of the SDLP, Colum Eastwood,

and the Labour MP, Kate Hoey.

Sinn Fein's policy on abortion

has long been divisive

within the party membership,

but just how big an issue

might it prove to be,

one week ahead of the annual Ard

Fheis?

It is such an important issue. It

will be a bumpy road over the next

couple of months.

And after Leo Varadkar

wore a "shamrock poppy"

in the Dail, I'll be talking

to the Fine Gael Senator

who gave him the lapel pin -

and asking if it remains too loaded

a symbol for many nationalists?

And with their thoughts on it all -

in a return fixture -

Fionnuala O'Connor and Alex Kane

are in Commentators' Corner.

Hello.

Just how how close

are we to direct rule?

The Secretary of State says

we're on a glide path,

for the chair of the NI select

committee we're in the foothills,

while the Irish government believes

Monday's planned budget is a step

towards the D word.

Meanwhile tonight, figures seen

by The View suggest that budget

will include an increase in health

spending, while a feared cash

reduction in the education budget

will not now go ahead.

To discuss the implications

of all of that I'm joined

by the Labour MP Kate Hoey

and from our Foyle studio

by the SDLP leader, Colum Eastwood.

Thank you for joining us. Colum

Eastwood, you have said for some

time that a Westminster budget would

amount to de facto direct rule.

Do

you still think that? Yes, I was

elected to utilise things like a

Budget Bill and I am not able to do

that. I am sitting here, I am not

sitting in storm at dealing with

that issue. It is unfortunate. What

we have now is the British

Government making decisions. What we

also have is a budget that should

have been produced last year by the

Finance minister, it was not

produced, inexplicably, we wanted to

see it, we did not even get the

draft of it. But it is clear from

the British Secretary of State and

from permanent secretaries across

different departments that this will

be the budget agreed between the DUP

and Sinn Fein, but being delivered

by James Brokenshire. I do not think

anybody wanted to see that happen.

We now have a situation where the

British Government is making

decisions in Northern Ireland once

again stop but what other option was

there because Northern Ireland 's

plc was about to run out of money,

talks of not allowed stalwarts to

get up and running again.

The

Secretary of State would say this

was the least worst option.

That is

right. He had very little choice.

The two parties decided to go into a

private room and negotiate a deal,

they have not been able to do it.

While Sinn Fein have talked about

Brits out, now it seems to be a

policy of Brits in. We saw it with

wealthier, we are now saying it with

everything else. They have failed

emergency. When they had the

responsibility. The on the economic

responsibility that the ever took in

Northern Ireland Assembly, the

Finance Ministry, they failed to

produce a budget. That is the most

basic job of any Government. It is

probably the only job of the Finance

Minister. Now we are in a position

where James Brokenshire has to do

that job for them. This will be

interesting if they come out next

week and criticise this budget.

Because this is their budget that

they refuse to deliver. Worth

pointing out that they asked both

Sinn Fein and the DUP to join us

tonight, and they did not want to. I

am pleased however that Kate Hoey is

here. Do you accept that James

Brokenshire, he might not like this

situation, but he has no alternative

other than to table a budget at

Westminster on Monday, and we will

see where we go from there.

Absolutely. This is the only switch

on to what could be a very serious

situation in terms of financing

Northern Ireland. I am off quite

often and I talk to people who know

what is happening in the health

service and how much it needs more

money. We cannot disguise that is

not a Government in Northern

Ireland. The parties have not got

together. We have to do this. It is

said that this is going to be done

by James Brokenshire, this will be

done by the UK Parliament, in which

the percentages of Northern Ireland

said. There will be some debate and

discussion and opportunities for

Northern Ireland MPs.

How

significant role that debate be? I

presume you will be in the House on

Monday?

I will. Is this a sideshow.

The reality is there will not be any

thoughts on it. There will be

general Agreement because people

will want to see that budget be put

through, and put through very

quickly. I think there will be a

feeling amongst many MPs that the

detail of the budget, and it will

probably be very much as has been

said, it will be based on what would

have happened if there had been an

Assembly running, but I do not think

that is any alternative. The people

of Northern Ireland actually need

this because they want to get on

with making things work. And it

might send a message to some of the

parties that obviously do not want

to go into Government, that life

goes on.

Nigel Dodds, deputy leader

of the DUP, and you know him through

Westminster, he is the leader there,

he called for direct rule by the

surge to be put in place as soon as

possible. He was very clear in an

interview that he gave last Friday.

Do you agree with that? People were

getting frustrated and they would

feel there is no point waiting

around for another few weeks and

getting no where, and the mood seems

to be that there is not going to be

an Agreement and therefore we might

as well, it is important that the

sessions are not taken by civil

servants. Civil servants Tulip look

as Sally want to take those

decisions. I would say that we have

had a long time now where it is very

clear, in particular one party is

setting too many preconditions, and

therefore we should be getting on

with getting extra ministers,

finding a way that we can keep some

involvement of members of the

Assembly here involved in some way.

I do not think they should

completely lose all their money

right away, because they do do some

work on their own constituencies but

we cannot go on any situation where

no one is running the country in

Northern Ireland. Northern out as

part of the United Kingdom and

therefore it is right and

legitimate. If there was this

problem in Wales there would be

direct rule back again, whatever you

call it. The budget is the beginning

of that and it would be very likely

that in a short time, unless

something very strange happens in

the next week or so, that you will

have formal direct rule within the

next month.

How do you respond to

that, Colum Eastwood? Is it all over

at that stage, failure for the

devolution project?

I do not think

that the Good Friday Agreement has

failed. I think that DUP and Sinn

Fein have failed the Good Friday

Agreement and we are now any

situation but it looks very likely

that we will see even more direct

rule. But it is important to point

out to Kate Hoey that this is not

Wales, it is different, that is an

international Agreement that

recognises the two traditions, that

needs to be given proper

recognition. If we cannot have the

Good Friday Agreement we have to

give it as much recognition as

possible, that speed is a very

strong Irish dimension. I know that

should be tapped said that but I am

saying it, it needs a strong Irish

dimension to make sure that we are

giving proper recognition.

What does

that mean, a very strong Irish

tradition? Spell that out exactly.

Ayew talking about joint authority?

I have used those words already. If

you get to the point where there is

no prospect, and we are not there

yet, no prospect of an Assembly

being up and running in the way we

would like, no prospect of ministers

being elected from the Assembly,

then we need to move to that place.

There are options within the Good

Friday Agreement that can be

triggered, but we also need to

understand that it is not possible

to run this place the same way that

Wales has been run. There are a

number of international agreements

that needs to be recognised. A piece

closest that these to be recognised.

Just because DUP and Sinn Fein want

to hold the space to ransom the rest

of us cannot lose out, I am not

going to stand by and allow that to

happen, the Irish Government has

said they will not allow that to

happen, Sinn Fein should see that,

but they seem to what the big enemy

of the Buddhist Government to come

in and run this.

I think it would be

-- enemy of the British Government

to come in and run this.

Joint

authority is just not on. What we

have two C is a way that allows

those Assembly members in Northern

Ireland to have been elected to have

some form of involvement in some way

in a direct rule situation. It is

clearly the two parties are not

going to get this together. Even if

they did, my fear is that within a

few months' time, another crisis,

another demand from Sinn Fein of

what they want, and the next thing,

we are back to square one. This

time, if we do have direct rule it

is important that we have some

genuine thought into how we actually

look at how Northern Ireland is

governed, whether it can really work

that man Stilley Coalition, admitted

that is something that this

opportunity with by recruitment give

to have that discussion.

The couple

of things have been mentioned,

voluntary Coalition is one, there

are parties that do not like that,

also the idea floated by the shadow

Secretary of State, your colleague

in the Labour Party, Owen Smith,

topped about eight shadow Assembly

to monitor decisions taken by direct

rule ministers, does that appeal to

you?

That's consultative Assembly,

that might just turn into an

opposition to everything that was

being done.

It is a pale shadow of

what we have had for the last ten

years.

It is very important that

people living in Northern Ireland

have people representing them in

terms of the two-day things that

most members of Parliament, most

Assembly members take up. That is

why we have got to have some way of

keeping that going so they could do

that job in their constituencies.

Colum Eastwood, is a shadow

Assembly, which was fought at as an

idea I Owen Smith, something that

you would be prepared to talk about,

or is that off the radar?

We are not

at that stage. We want an actual

Assembly with proper ministers

elected from that Assembly,

appointed from the semi, doing the

job.

You have had one since January.

That is not our fact -- that is not

our fault, more and more power

placed in London, less and less and

Northern Ireland. Nigel Dodds wants

to see British listers as soon as

possible, of course he does. He is

in a very strong position. Given

what this happened in the British

Cabinet in the last week two he is

in an even stronger position. He and

Arlene Foster will be calling the

shots and every single penny that is

spent in Northern Ireland. People do

not think that is alarming enough to

get on with the job of doing a deal

which is best for everybody then I

do not understand what they are

playing at. Nobodypos-macro to be

protected either DUP and the British

Government.

I think that there is a

very cynical remark. That will not

go down well amongst the prounion

community.

Kate Hoey always supports

the DUP position. We have a budget

on Monday in the House of Commons,

we assume it will make its way to

the House of Lords on Tuesday, that

deals with the immediate budgetary

pressures. Can I ask, have you had

any idea at all about further talks

next week Gretchen mac I gather

there is an SDLP delegation that met

James Brokenshire.

I do not think

there is any new idea on the table.

We have been frozen out of the

These

have not been all-party talks or

chaired properly and agreed on. We

have two parties facilitated by one

government talking to themselves in

a room and we are no farther

forward.

We have been through that

is why Northern Ireland isn't

working properly.

I want to repeat

the call for progress that was made

throughout those talks because Sinn

Fein keep telling everybody as the

DUP to that nobody has told us how

far they have come. Both parties

know what they want, but apparently

they have stretched themselves but

how far is that? This is all on the

basis on what has been done in those

negotiations, and they have failed

in being here tonight to stand by a

budget they agreed upon in a year

ago.

They didn't take the

opportunity to join us tonight but

thank you for joining us both. Kate,

you have joined us from the football

tonight, not the result you are

hoping for.

It was a handball

penalty decision which I think all

the spectators and all the

commentators said was not right but

that is football. We can come back

in Basel, we have done it before and

the fans were wonderful, and I think

Northern Ireland as a whole should

be very proud of their team whatever

happens in the match on the weekend

because it has just been brilliant

but they were written off at the

beginning when the draw came and

they have done extremely well.

And

good luck to the public in Denmark.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm like an

Arsenal supporter supporting it is

an unseen.

Sometimes these things

had to be done!

Thank you both.

A Sinn Fein TD who lost the whip

over his stance on abortion has

called on the party to allow elected

members to vote

with their conscience.

Peadar Toibin also warned the party

faces a 'bumpy road' in dealing

with the issue in the coming months.

He was speaking in the wake

of Gerry Adams' disclosure this week

that his personal view is that it

should be a woman's right to choose

whether or not to have an abortion.

It's believed to be the first time

the Sinn Fein President has

made his own view known publicly.

So what impact could this have

on the abortion debate

within the party ahead of next

weekend's Ard Fheis?

Our political correspondent,

Enda McClafferty,

has been investigating.

CHANTING

It polarises and mobilises in a way

that no other issue can and that is

why the rights Han Rongze of

abortion are such a political

minefield. Parties choose their

positions and words carefully but

this week Gerry Adams went a step

further revealing his personal

stance.

The Sinn Fein position is

one of allowing safe access to

abortion for women in certain cases,

but personally I am opposed to

abortion except in those

circumstances but I don't think that

is up to me to make that choice, it

is the woman's rights to make that

choice.

Gerry Adams's decision to go

public now on his pro-choice stance

raises lots of interesting questions

for republicans. For instance, is

this a party leader laying the

foundation for some future change in

policy? Or is this a party leader

simply laying his cards on the table

before announcing his successor?

It

is hard to know what his strategy

is. Obviously he is very strategic

in the way he works within the

party.

This is Daisy Muse, a Sinn

Fein member who for 34 years has

been pushing the pro-choice case on

the Ard Fheis platform and will do

so again next weekend.

I am totally

surprised, I have to use a gun at

what he has said and is delighted at

what he said, as I said. -- I

support the women making that

choice, and the party is very close

to supporting choice.

Not everybody

sees it like that. This place is

proud of their republicanism and

lately, for some, their pro life

stance. And was once the Sinn Fein

Mab for quitting the party -- Mayor

and then quit the party are that

their stance on abortion.

We are

pro-life and believe that we should

and we must cherish all the children

in this nation equally. I stand with

Patrick Pearse on that.

Here is

another outspoken pro-life voice

still in the party, treble who voted

against the oil bill allowing for

limited abortions. He has been

suspended, and wants to let members

vote with their conscience but will

he walk away if people said no? I

would like to stay fully as tightly

with the party on all issues and I

do feel the need is insect relates

-- articulates an this issue because

it is so important and we are going

to a bumpy road in the next few

months but a bit of cohesion with

respectful debate and openness on

this we could actually stabilise the

political issue on that bumpy road.

Sinn Fein say it's abortion policy

will be set by delegates at the Ard

Fheis. The current position is that

the law in Ireland should be

amended, in cases of rape, sexual

crime, fatal faecal abnormalities

and where a woman's life is at risk.

The party will eventually move even

further, perhaps.

I believe it will

perhaps become a pro-choice party,

certainly in places like Dublin and

Belfast where the vast majority of

party members would be claiming to

be pro-choice in that direction.

There will be a lively debate, a

mixture of urban versus rural and

young versus old.

But is it true to

say that it is part of a

generational shift? We put the

theory to the test that the over 50s

club in Creggan. The room was evenly

split between pro-choice and

pro-life. And there was no shortage

of strong views.

I believe it should

be the lady's choice. To do what she

feels is right.

It is something that

everybody who is having a disabled

child or feel they will should be

able to do abort.

That is a

different kettle of fish, isn't it?

The baby didn't ask to be born. If

it is unhealthy, then aborted? To

make it is a life.

Sinn Fein say

their views reflect those of the

wider society. When Gerry Adams

speaks next weekend for the 34th

time, the focus will now doubt shift

to his retirement plans and his

departure timetable amongst others.

Enda McClafferty reporting.

The Taoiseach's decision to wear

a hybrid "shamrock poppy"

in the Dail this week led to raised

eyebrows - as well as

praise and criticism.

The lapel badge was commissioned

by the Irish branch

of the Royal British Legion

and proceeds raised go to veterans

and their families living in Ireland

who've served in UK forces.

Sinn Fein said while it was

Leo Varadkar's personal

decision, it was not one

a Sinn Fein Taoiseach would choose.

With me now is the

Irish Senator who gave

the badge to the Taoiseach,

Frank Feighan, and the Irish News

journalist Allison Morris,

who has a personal interest

in the issue.

Why has the wearing of the poppy

become an SU for you?

Over the

years, over 50,000 Irish

nationalists and unionists in the

island of Ireland made the ultimate

sacrifice and we airbrushed their

sacrifice out of our history in the

Republic in the last ten or five

years we have become very confident

and reassured of our past and now it

is time to remember the sacrifices

of people and I think with the

commemorations we have come a long

way.

You believe that people in the

Republic should reconnect with the

poppy and what it stands for and the

poppy shamrock that you were wearing

on your lapel tonight is the way to

do that?

In 1924, two years after

the foundation of the state 150,000

people were in Dublin celebrating

Armistice Day and it is amazing that

70 years after that we have

completely forgotten about it and

effectively we have allowed a

unionism to commemorate the

sacrifices, and we neglected to do

that.

Alison, you have a conjugated

and very personal history with the

poppy.

It is and I agree with what

he has said because some of my own

family's history wasn't spoken about

in the past ten years. My

great-grandfather died in the First

World War, and the temporary

Cabernet, moved to Belfast and

enjoyed the British Army, the Royal

Irish rifles and his war history was

known, some family documents were

uncovered at a funeral and they

found a telegram sent to my grandma

Rose telling her that he had died.

It lasted 56 days is career in the

Army, until he died in Belgium. His

son joined the same regiment and was

captured in World War II by the

Japanese and was a prisoner of war

and was released until 1945 when his

family thought he was dead. He was

found in a prisoner of war camp.

Those other two reasons why you

might choose to wear the poppy.

There is another connection which I

suppose really is the reason you

choose not to wear the poppy, is

that right, your cousin?

There are

many reasons. We have a comic Eddie

this day in Northern Ireland and it

has been hijacked, the poppy, mostly

by loyalist paramilitaries who

wrongly use the poppy. Today I did a

story in relation to a lady who's

uncle was a RAF war hero, fought in

the Battle of Britain and was shot

in the old part in the back by a

gunman, and there are poppy is an

the murderer's mural. My cousin was

named after both of those men. They

were shot by a member of the British

Army, and was the first British

soldier in Northern Ireland

convicted of murder on duty. It was

found he was taken out of prison and

was back in the army again.

Bananarama came to his funeral and

it is funny that I'm sitting talking

about this now.

What do you wonder

in that article today is what that

person responsible killing your

cousin would think if he knew about

the connection that that's dead man,

your cousin, had with his

grandfather and great-grandfather

who had served in the same Army?

You

wonder, that is the convicted

history we have here in Northern

Ireland basically that soldier had

shot a man in a back who was the

grandson or great-grandson of the

war heroes for the British Army and

you would wonder if he didn't know

that at the time, does he know that

now, I don't know where he is stop

Frank, it is personal and you can

see how it is quite an emotional

story to tell.

As Alison has done in

public today. Can you see in a

contested blaze like Northern

Ireland how a symbol like the poppy

is so controversial?

Absolutely and

it shows dues respect to what the

poppy should stand for. Where I come

from, a Republic view of how we can

commemorate the history here and we

saw over the years we have seen

where the Easter Lily has been

hijacked by a certain group and the

Irish tricolour has been hijacked

and maybe it is now time for middle

Ireland to come together and to take

back these symbols because those

symbols belong to us all.

I think

the difference probably talking

about the use the lily done it is

easy for us to say is that we know

that the furore surrounding James

Maclean every year surrounding him

not wearing a poppy, no one is

deadly force someone to wear an

Easter yearly but this is a sort of

poppy fascism that we see every

year, or if they appear an the X

factor without the poppy, they are

ostracised, that isn't what it

should stand for. I can see what Leo

Varadkar did and thought why he

thought it was a gesture reaching

out but I think it is a luxury

afforded to be would love not been

touched by the troubles like we have

here.

To be fair to some of those

individuals or organisations

involved in the Poppy Appeal, what

they would say is no body should be

forced to wear the poppy.

It is in

them that drive this sort of

fascism, it isn't the British Legion

driving at agenda. It comes from

other places and what we say about

the fact it has been hijacked here

in Northern Ireland than you can see

that happening in England where it

has been hijacked by the far right

and the flag and such, people like

my grandfather and great-grandfather

who did make that ultimate sacrifice

are being honoured among side others

who did not deserve that honour.

What about the shamrock poppy, can

you see where that situation may be

would be an uncontested symbol?

I was not even aware of it until the

Taoiseach wore it. I think it is a

lovely idea because there are graves

in the south of British veterans.

That money goes to look after the

memorials. That is an honest and

decent use of that kind of money and

decent use of the Poppy. I can see

where he is coming from. But I do

think it is about choice and people

should wear a poppy if the want. He

should wear red for the right

reasons.

Sometimes people waited for

the wrong reasons. It is an

interesting conversation. Maybe the

best you could hope for, wearing it,

by sending the Poppy to the

Taoiseach and seeing him where it

then that Dail is that it opens up

that conversation north and South of

the border.

Absolutely. It always

helps when the conciliation for the

island of Ireland.

You sent a lapel

badge to several political leaders

including Sinn Fein President, Gerry

Adams, did he come back to you?

It

was my colleague who sent it. He

would have got an Easter lily pen

from Gerry Adams and he would have

reciprocated. Was the correspondence

back?

I do not know. Is it something

that will gain traction in years to

come in the South?

I think so. When

we see the history and we see how

these men were airbrushed out of

history, it is a worthwhile future

for the Irish label Poppy in the

Republic.

Thank you both.

And let's hear from

tonight's commentators -

Fionnuala O Connor and Alex Kane.

I do not know how where you were of

the Shamrock poppy but doesn't hold

any attraction for you?

I agree, it

comes down to choice. I where the

poppy but I only wear it on the

11th, part of that is because it has

been hijacked, it upsets me to see

loyalist paramilitaries using the

poppy for portico reasons. And on

social media. It is a personal thing

but that is worth bearing in mind

that her study proves the further

you go from an event, the more you

read in to look at the symbol, look

at what really happened. It was

about freedom, it was about choices.

Do you think it is a genuine attempt

to draw the sting on what is a

tricky issue?

I would not question

the motives. I cannot see how it

could be anything other than

genuine. I do not where badgers and

I do not much like them.

-- badges. One of the horrors is to

realise that there were people in

Europe and family who went through

that. My grandfather as well was

then World War I. He went because he

could not get work in Belfast. He

came back into the maelstrom of

Belfast in 1918, 1919 and he joined

Michael Collins's army. But he could

not talk about it afterwards. He

could not talk about Gallipoli, the

Dardanelles, he was a simple man who

was forced to do something that was

not in his nature.

What we have

underscored again tonight, is that

for everybody it is a very personal

experience and people where I do not

where it for all kinds of reasons.

The budget, happening on Monday,

interesting conversation between

Kate Hoey and Colum Eastwood, as its

direct rule in all but name?

Maybe I

am old-fashioned stop direct rule

means there is no Assembly. You...

Somebody described that as not

having devolution. We are still

going to pay these people for doing

nothing. We cannot do anything at

all but could you keep being as Mr

mac it is offensive. It needs to be

sorted. James Cook and sheer --

James broken sheer should see the

salaries are stopping now. He will

never make any big decision.

He

would see things differently and I

suppose his view and their view of

those around him is that he is doing

everything he can to bleed life into

a startling process.

He has also got

to keep in with the DUP, and things

are going their way, it is said, but

I wonder they are, and I wonder if

the state of the current British

Government is the state of

reassurance to the DUP, I do not see

how it could be.

Do you think the talks are over?

Last week it was said that this

phase of the process is over. There

is nothing to talk about. They are

not that course.

I think Gregory

Campbell put his finger on it when

he said we never signed up to the

Good Friday Agreement and that is a

declaration that there was not

anything there to begin with. I

would be surprised if James

Brokenshire pools at down, it would

be difficult to put it back up

again, now it is impossible because

of DUP's big use all to sign up in

the first place means there is

nothing to put back together again.

That's it from The View

for this week.

We're back next

week at the same time,

but we leave you tonight

with one of Stormont's most

intrepid politicians -

the man who dared to go behind enemy

lines in search of a sugar fix,

no matter what the cost.

Good night.

Again I am at the DUP vending

machine.

I will get my change there.

How did that happen? I put £1 in the

DUP vending machine and I got £1 60

back.