16/11/2017 The View

The former Tory Chancellor Ken

Clarke has seen political crisis

after political crisis and watched

Prime Ministers come and go,

so what's his answer to the question

of the Irish border and Brexit?

Tonight on The View,

we ask him how, or even if,

that circle can be squared.

He's a veteran of many political

battles over 47 years as an MP.

Now, following the referendum,

he's found himself out of step

with many in his own party.

Ken Clarke, a Remainer

rebel at Westminster,

has urged the government to row back

from a hard Brexit.

You can leave the EU and keep the

best free trade deal that we have

with anybody in the world, with our

most important and biggest market.

Do that, you solve the Irish border

problem.

Also on the programme tonight:

With no Irish nationalist voice

at Westminster and with Stormont

in limbo, is the House of Commons

in danger of becoming too one-sided

in favour of unionists?

The government itself has a duty to

be an honest broker and a neutral

arbiter.

I'll be asking two of our

MPs for their views

on the democratic deficit.

And back again with their thoughts

on another week of political twists

and turns are columnists

Fionnuala O'Connor and Alex Kane.

Hello.

His picture was splashed

on the front page of

the Daily Telegraph yesterday.

Ken Clarke was one of 15 Tory rebels

labelled the Brexit mutineers

over their plans to join forces

with Labour to block

measures to enshrine

the date for Brexit in law.

When I spoke to Mr Clarke earlier,

I began by asking him why he's

opposed to the date -

11pm on 29th March,

2019 to be precise -

being included in Westminster

legislation?

Anybody who knows anything about the

negotiations will know that it is

silly. You do not need it because

Article 50 has set the date for

leading. To suddenly make it Rajesh

law that you have to leave at a

precise minute -- British law on the

evening of the 29th of March, that

is quite unnecessary and for people

who have to do the work of drawing

up a new order, it could be very

damaging because international

negotiations, not just in Europe, if

they come up against deadlines of

this kind, they sometimes go over

because of everyone is reasonable

and that in a few more days or weeks

you could sort this out then you can

stop the clock and you just go on.

To have the time rigidly fixed so

you have no Deal and it has

collapsed on that particular minute

just so you can get a good headline

in the Daily Telegraph is an

unnecessary thing to do and my guess

is, it is only a guess, I don't

know, my guess is that people in the

Foreign Office and the Brexit offers

have been bombarding Number ten and

asking why they have tabled this and

this must be got rid of.

You are now

firmly cast in the role of Tory

rebel and you mention that in the

house on Tuesday. Some see you as

the de facto Leader of the

Opposition. How does that say with

you?

It is very surprisingly cos I

have been an establishment man for

the last 50 years and I joke with

the people who are now the Tory

establishment, I won't tell you

which one, but a very hard-line

Eurosceptic, a friend of mine and I

have respect for his views, he was a

Maastricht rebel and I was a

minister in favour of liberal

economic policies and social

liberalism and very pro-European and

I was the establishment then and he

was the rebel now we have the other

way round and I am the rebel and he

is the voice of orthodoxy and I just

stick to the policies of the

Conservative Party until the last 18

months I find myself rebel. It is

more fun being a rebel but it is a

strange thing that has happened

because of the Europe issue that has

produced this topsy-turvy

catastrophe really in the political

system of the United Kingdom.

There

is a very particular concern in

certain quarters on this side of the

Irish key -- Irish Sea about what

Brexit might mean for Ireland, north

and south. Do you get a feeling that

David Davies, Liam Fox and Theresa

May understand that?

I think they

understand it. I have not met anyone

yet from either side of the Irish

Sea or on the continent who has the

answer to it. I am sure David Davis

profoundly sincerely, as is Theresa

May, when they say they do not want

to reintroduce a fixed border

between Northern Ireland and the

South and at the same time no one

knows how you do that because if in

two different countries, which is

what they are, you have different

customs rules and different market

regulations and different

immigration rules on both sides of

the border, you have to do have a

fixed border. The position of the

government is perfectly sincere and

it is totally contradictory. It is

baffling people in Belfast, Dublin

and Brussels, trying to find a

solution to that.

When James

Brokenshire says, and he said it

many times, that he doesn't want

to see a return to the boards of the

past and he does want to see a

seamless, frictionless border, you

are saying you can't work out at

this stage how that is deliverable?

Yes. I am sure James believes that.

I believe in him strongly, for what

it matters. I am also sure that he,

like me, hasn't a clue how you are

going to do that. If the British

government sticks to its present

position, which has no relation to

the referendum, it wasn't what we

were told in the referendum, that we

are not only leaving the European

Union but apparently we are pulling

out of the single market and a

customs union and the answer to me

seems to be perfectly obvious, the

public didn't vote to leave the

single market or the customs union

and you can leave the EU and keep

the best free trade deal that we

have with anybody in the world who

are our most important and biggest

market. Do that, you solve the Irish

border problem.

Your solution would

be for Northern Ireland certainly to

remain the customs union and the

single market.

I would like the

entire United Kingdom two but that

would be a fallback position and

obviously in the interests of the

Northern Ireland. It is plain as a

pike staff to me.

You do not need

telling that the Unionists, such as

the DUP, are supporting Theresa May

and they want nothing to do with

that scenario.

The majority -- the

majority of the Ulster people, if I

was to use the language of the

triumphalist Remainers, the voice of

the people in Northern Ireland told

them that they did they voted for

remain. I would be irritated by the

fact that we were having to operate

a customs border between two parts

of the United Kingdom and I am a

perfectly fervent unionist myself, I

Ulster says stay in the United

Kingdom so it would be slightly

idiotic in a way if we had to have a

customs border along the Irish Sea

but I think the southern Irish would

be entitled to say that it is

self-inflicted, isn't it? It is what

you appear to have decided out is

what you have to do because you help

the referendum.

Unionists would say

and many are said to me and

interviews in the past few months

that that is not on the agenda

because it was a UK wide referendum

on wild Northern Ireland may have

voted to remain, it is the UK vote

that trumps the Northern Ireland

vote.

Didn't decide any of these

details at all. If you think they

were campaigning in the countryside

in Nottinghamshire, which I

represent, where you should have the

border with the Republic of Ireland,

when we left the European Union,

that is nonsense. Nobody was told,

when anybody mentioned leaving the

single market the leaders were

indignant, politics of fear. Boris

Johnson told everybody that we would

go on as normal and there wouldn't

be any difference to how we trade

with the outside world. It is only

since the referendum and nothing to

do with the referendum that these

zealots have decided that they

actually want to pull out of the

single market and the customs union

and the border problem in Northern

Ireland, the supreme importance of

keeping a settlement in place in

Northern Ireland and keeping peace

in Northern Ireland is probably the

single biggest and most important

reason why it would be preferable

for the United Kingdom as a whole to

stay in the single market and the

customs union. If the Brexiteers and

these right-wing nationalists will

not allow us to do that then the

best solution, I agree with the

Taoiseach actually, is to have a

border through the Irish Sea.

You

say that you believe that the police

process -- peace process and

stability in Northern Ireland is in

peril...

That is exaggerated. There

is such a desire for peace in

Northern Ireland and it would be

impossible to devise a better

settlement in the short time medium

future so the people in Ulster will

work very hard to make sure that a

border does not wreck the peace

process. I may have been

overdramatising it, but I just think

it is so important that there is a

name that every British politician

shares that we showed if possible,

if at all possible, stick with an

open border without new controls.

Simon Coveney has been criticised

for having too much to say that the

UK's handling of the Brexit

negotiations but do you think the

Irish government, which is the only

country with an land boards are, do

they have the right to talk about

Brexit game of course they do. It is

their border. They are the EU

country most likely to be affected

by this all going wrong.

United

Kingdom will suffer the most damage

if these negotiations collapse but

it won't do the Irish Republic any

good either and they obviously have

an entirely legitimate interest to

express views on all of this. They

are probably right to put it so high

on the agenda so early in the

process in the negotiations.

I just

want to end on the special

relationship you have with the DUP,

of course. I have already referred

to it. Does it make it more

difficult for some kind of special

arrangement to be sold for Northern

Ireland post-Brexit because your

party is dependent on DUP votes to

remain in government. Theresa May

needs Nigel Dodds. That is the long

and short of it, isn't it?

Yes, but

it is a very precise agreement.

Nigel Dodds has signed up to

supporters on Brexit and Finance

bills and budget decisions. They are

an extremely important voice in

whole question so I don't think it

is just linked to our dependence on

their votes. Ireland is, the big

issues in Ireland go beyond that. In

deciding what we are able to do and

keep an open border on the island of

Ireland, you have to listen to the

DUP.

I happy enough to listen to the

DUP more generally, or do you see it

as a case of the DUP whacking the

Tory dog in all of this?

The deal

with the DUP is giving the

government a better majority on

things like the budget and they are

signed up to giving us a majority on

Brexit, so they would be breaking

their deal if they pulled out of

that voted against anything on

Brexit but this is a serious issue

that needs to be taken more

seriously than that. It is in the

interests of everybody in Northern

Ireland and the rest of the United

Kingdom and in the Republic of

Ireland that we get a sensible

agreement that does not jeopardise

the perfectly good arrangements that

we have at the moment with the

invisible border, which is a big

improvement on whether used to be.

When you heard there was a £1

billion deal struck between the DUP

and your Conservative Party, how did

you feel about that cash bonanza for

Northern Ireland, given that you

were a cautious, careful, some might

say tightfisted Chancellor in your

day?

I wouldn't mind that

description. I reflect on the fact

that as long as I remember

throughout my career negotiation has

been absolutely a key part of the

politics of Northern Ireland and on

all sides in Northern Irish politics

they are brilliant negotiators. They

know how to get a good deal and I

just hope that the British do rather

batter in the negotiations in

Europe.

Maybe you should have Nigel

Dodds on the negotiating table.

He

would be a valuable asset if he is

on your side.

Ken Clarke speaking to me earlier.

And we'll be hearing at length

from a leading pro-Brexit

campaigner in the near future.

Now, a Labour MP who comes

from South Armagh says nationalists

are facing a democratic deficit

because they're not

represented at Westminster

and the Stormont Assembly

is not sitting.

Conor McGinn said debates this week

on the budget were one-sided and not

reflective of the wider community.

So is he right, and if he is,

what can be done about it?

Here's Gareth Gordon.

In South Armagh allegiances of the.

100% nationalist, or as near as

makes no difference. The image of a

hunger striker, and in keeping with

policy, the MP does not take his

seat.

What you saw in the debates around

the budget was that the work

one-sided and they were not

reflective of the wider community

stop this father is a former Sinn

Fein councillor.

Conor sits in

Parliament as the Labour MP.

If we

move closer to direct rule that will

be reflected even further and that

is not a tenable for sustainable

position.

Back in his home village

claims of a democratic deficit are

dismissed by a man, who like him,

was once an MP and remains one of

Sinn Fein's leading figures.

For ten months Conor Murphy has been

involved in fruitlessly cushy

issuance with DUP aimed at restoring

power sharing.

Have influence. --

fruitless discussions with DUP. We

have spent the last ten months

trying to put the Agreement back. We

will try to Bishoo that with both

and in the near future. We want to

see that happen. -- we will try to

pursue that.

That DUP with its

growing influence.

Sinn Fein,

instead of coming to this House and

taking their place in the Assembly,

being in the executive, are dying in

Dublin pleading with their political

opponents. -- are in Dublin.

If

nationalists are worried about a

democratic deficit, big are hiding

it well, in election after election,

they are turning to Sinn Fein in

ever increasing numbers.

Margaret Ritchie is a victim of the

Sinn Fein surge, the former SDLP

Peter lost her seat to the party.

This should come together and look

at this issue, look at the situation

where people are not being

adequately represented either at

Westminster or with the lack of

political situations. Joint

sovereignty, joint authority,

whereby both traditions in the north

of Ireland can be adequately served

as represented. Sinn Fein has

another idea. It is the

responsibility of both governments

to look at the Good Friday

Agreement, an intergovernmental

conference.

An intergovernmental

conference.

What is that? It was

devised to fill in the gap that

devolution feels. When devolution

happened they put it into cold

storage but Sinn Fein are trying to

get the two governments to convene

this and pass legislation which they

seek their British are responsible

for passing, such as an Irish line

which act. What will happen?

Nothing, because the Irish

Government will not say they will

demand a conference after the

British to past such legislation

because the British are likely to

see, they mobbed the following

things on the border for Brexit.

Conor McGinn says the governor has

to do something. Just because Sinn

Fein MPs do not take their seats

does not mean that the British

Government can say they will not

give a voice to nationalists. The

Government has a duty to be a

neutral arbiter and honest broker

and reflect the concerns of the

entire community in northern

Ireland.

A tricky question for any British

governments, especially one which

depends on the votes of the DUP for

its survival.

Gareth Gordon there,

ending his report with

Conor McGinn's take on what should

happen next to counter

the absence of a nationalist

voice at Westminster.

And there remain many questions

around what should happen next

as far as politics here is concerned

- not least in the wake

of the Northern Ireland budget being

passed at Westminster this week.

Joining me tonight from our Foyle

studio are the DUP and Sinn Fein

MPs, Gregory Campbell

and Elisha McCallion.

Thank you for joining us. Are you

concerned that there is no

nationalists voice currently being

heard at Westminster?

It is their

choice. If Sinn Fein took a decision

to bring down the Stormont Assembly,

and to continue this Shabbat of not

taking their seats at Westminster,

-- this charade of not taking their

seats, they know the outcome. When

we went to negotiate with the

Conservatives, we decided, despite a

lot of people thinking that what we

were about was a narrow agenda,

responding to Sinn Fein's narrow

agenda, we said no, look at this in

an all-encompassing whistle that we

try and advance the position in

terms of health, education,

infrastructure, so that everybody

will win. This will be a genuine

when - win and that is what we have

tried to do. That nationalists, if

they want to take their seats, their

seats idea, it is a voluntary

withdrawal from Westminster and

Italy but bringing down of Stormont.

If it is a democratic deficit, it is

a self-inflicted one, because you

are not taking your own seats, how

is that good for democracy?

Let us

not lose sight of what happened in

June this year. Clearly the

electorate in large numbers turn

their back on Westminster.

Nationalists in the north have

turned their back on Westminster for

the first time since artesian. That

is a sign as to where nationalists

are. Look at what happened this week

in terms of James Brokenshire

producing the budget at Westminster.

For any of your viewers who took the

time to watch what happened there,

he stood up to make his speech in

quite an empty chamber, but the

minute he began to speak about the

budget, which was a significant

thing for us in the north, the

chamber empty, so the nonsense that

there is anyone in the Westminster

benchers, apart from those who

either come from here, or who have

any notion or any willingness to try

and understand and deal with the

issues of the Irish people as they

nonsense.

Do we take it you are

rattles because the party is now

calling for the meeting of the

British- Irish intergovernmental

conference, why?

Because we believe

that is the next step forward. There

is provision for the conference in

previous agreements. We believe that

the British and Irish governments

have responsibility and obligations

in relation to ensuring that the

rights of the people of all of this

dozens of this island are adhered

to. We spoke to the Irish Government

yesterday, we will be meeting

directly with the Visa me. That is

what we do. When we need to speak to

the British Government, we do not

sit on empty backbenchers, we will

go straight to the top, that is

where we are going on Chiswick, we

will be telling Theresa May quite

firmly that direct rule is not an

option. Direct rule is not an option

for the north.

You see it is not an

option for Sinn Fein, but other

option for the north, but if that

happens there is nothing you can do

about it.

Of course there is. You

are making the assumption that we

have no influence in institutions.

That is clearly not the case. Sinn

Fein have the biggest mandate in

Ireland. We have representation in

the Dail, in Brussels, the north,

and the speaking to those who have

influence and London.

You cannot

stop direct rule if James

Brokenshire appoints direct rule

ministers.

We can. It is called the

Good Friday Agreement. Messages

rocking chair is going to tear up

the Good Friday Agreement in front

of us of just what would happen if

we went back to direct rule, that

will not happen. It is naive to

think that will happen.

That is not

what I sense at all. Would you be

happy to see the British- Irish

intergovernmental conference meeting

in the near future? At last met in

Dundalk in February 2000 and seven.

Would you be relaxed about that? We

would not see the point on it.

People are crying out for delivery

on the services that are suffering

at the moment. Sinn Fein cannot have

it both ways. She talks about

pressure and meeting people, the

last time she went to London she

complained about the size of hotel

room. To talk about empty benches,

what we have got to do is work our

way through the problems. There are

difficult problems to get Stormont

back in place, but we can do it. We

are prepared to do it tomorrow.

There are difficulties with the

health service, education, roads

infrastructure. Those things need

attention. They can be better dealt

with by locally appointed ministers.

You have said it before on this

programme. A couple of weeks ago,

John O'Dowd said, this phase of the

toxin is over, I'd be telling me it

is back up and running I gain?

Discussions are being held with Sinn

Fein and ourselves and the need to

come to a conclusion.

Would you

characterise that as the talks

process continuing?

You can

categorise it in whatever way you

choose. How do you categorise it?

Discussions are continuing.

Hopefully they can come to a

successful conclusion. If they are

sensible and rational then we can

reach a sensible conclusion. We need

to reach that conclusion because

people are looking for those

services to be delivered. That is

what they are wanting. They do not

want roads held up, they want their

schools repaired, money got to

teachers and nurses. We can deliver

that through direct rule or devolved

governments but our preference is

for default Government.

Let us get

it set up. Can you clarify for me,

is the talks process a live one or

is it dormant as was suggested by

John or died on this programme a

couple of weeks ago? Which is at --

macro Brasanac.

As the toss process continuing.

The

current phase -- is the talks

process continuing weak kneed that

governments to move this on, unless

there is a change in attitude we

will not get match in terms of

moving this former. We are seeing

what we need now are the two Mac

governments to step in. Integrity is

a word that seems to be lost on the

DUP. We need the integrity from both

of those governments who have signed

up to those previous agreements, to

step in now, and not do what they

DUP has done over the past them but

of years, and not implement what

they previously agreed in all the

agreements. We need that to happen

as a matter of course and that is

what we will be telling Theresa May

on Tuesday.

Just to be clear, within

Sinn Fein you are still clear to see

the devolved decisions of stomach

and running as soon as possible?

Absolutely. We have said that from

the outset. Nobody can say that Sinn

Fein as a party was not the party

that stretched itself year after

year in order to see the

institutions remain in place. Why?

Because we believe in them and are

committed to them. We are committed

to their Good Friday Agreement but

we will not take a deal. When Martin

McGuinness resigned in January this

year we said we would not return to

the status quo. We need similar

could change in terms of the DUP.

There is that Sinn Fein conference

this Saturday, DUP conference the

following Saturday, when we get

those out of the way it will be be a

renewed talks process at the end of

this year, start of next year, maybe

with an external facilitator

controlling how the process works on

a day to day basis?

Whatever the

mechanism is, we need to get

devolved governments back in place.

It needs to be on a sustainable

basis. The last thing people will

want having come through all the

month that we have been through is

to try and put something together

for a few months, and then somebody

throws a fit again, and walks out

another time, and brings the entire

charade tumbling down. We need is to

get it on a sustainable basis and

deliver for people.

We get that

point. Conferences out of the way,

end of this year, start of next

year, independent cheer, will that

break the deadlock?

We are up for

dialogue any day of the week but we

need a shift in attitude. There is

no point in going into discussions

again with the DUP in the same

position.

A shift in Sinn Fein's

attitudes?

We were willing to

negotiate with Mike Cooper Mac but

let me be clear on this, we would

love to go to our membership this

week at the Ard Fheis and see we had

a deal. We want is to choose shins

up and running. There is no

relevance to our Ard Fheis happening

this week in remission to what is

happening with the talks, we are

always willing to engage but the

issue was not primarily how we went

about the talks it was about the

fact that there was no willingness

from DUP or the British Government

to invalid previous agreements.

If an a quick final question to you.

Ken Clarke was talking about the

baffling and totally contradictory

situation where there has to be a

border it should be in the Irish

Sea.

If Ted Heath were alive he

would be proud of Ken Clarke, gears

of that ilk. He is a very good

parliamentarian and quite a good

Unionist party is a total Europhile

and he doesn't see the reality of

people demanding freedom and

emancipation from the European

bureaucrats that brought us down and

cost as hundreds of billions and

hopefully within the next 15 months

we will be liberated.

Thank you both.

And let's hear what tonight's

commentators have to say about that.

Alex Kane and Fionnuala

O Connor are with me.

Fionnuala, personable, having

listened to that conversation about

the talks process, dead in the

water, or advisable?

Well, pretty

unconscious in the water. I don't

know if it is advisable. If it is

you really couldn't be confident

about what will happen after that.

What we have had for the past two or

three weeks is industrial scale

jibber jabber between them, they say

they want to do something but they

never do it. There is already a

whole series of preconditions. It

will not happen. The process and the

whole Good Friday Agreement process

is dead in the water.

Sinn Fein a

meeting Theresa May on Tuesday, is

that a light at the end of the

tunnel?

I would not have thought so.

I don't think Theresa May is in the

business of, she has the DUP to

consider, I was more interested in

Ken Clarke 's bland and gruff

proposition that the only solution

to all of this is to have the border

through the middle of the Irish Sea

as the Taoiseach has said. He put

his finger on it and he said it

again and again in his own way that

there is no solution to this

conundrum. You cannot have a soft

border and you cannot have a hard

border that does not restore border

fortifications and the only way

around it is, as he said, for

Northern Ireland and preferably in

his view the whole of the UK to stay

in the single market and in the

Common Market and the single union

so he said it can't be done and

nobody else has been able to come up

with a way around it so that is

something that Theresa May is up

against now and it is something that

the DUP are up against as well.

Alex, did you think that Ken Clarke

showed an interesting light on where

he is and where the Brexit

discussions are as far as London is

concerned? Let us just say he is out

of step with the secretary of state

on most of the issues that he talked

about in the interview tonight.

Absolutely clearly he is wary was in

1975 in the original referendum. The

notion he is talking about that

somehow you could keep Northern

Ireland in the single market and the

customs union, even if the rest of

Great Britain stays in, that will

never sell. It is not only the DUP

but no Unionist will ever buy that

because that would change

fundamentally the relationship

between Northern Ireland and the

rest of Britain, it will never

happen, no matter how pleasing Ken

Clarke will try and make it sound.

It is not happening.

Hebert finger

on it, there is no other way around

it and no one has been able to come

up with it. The proposition was not

put to people in the referendum that

UK was leaving the customs union and

the single market.

In fairness,

neither side did. You are right.

Neither the British or the Irish

governments have that debate. They

didn't say to people whatever way

you vote, remember these are the

consequences, they never have that

debate. They never expected Brexit.

British government, Irish

government, Belfast, Brussels, none

of them expected this result and

they are all like ducks in a dark

room and the consequences, they

never have that debate. They never

expected Brexit. British government,

Irish government, Belfast, Brussels,

none of them expected this result

and they are all like ducks in a

dark room again what is happening.

They are also talking about a

special case for Irish -- Northern

Ireland and that is what the DUP is

saying, they want a bespoke union

but it cannot be the special case

that Sinn Fein want.

Again, as often

happens, we have asked questions but

we haven't come up with too many

answers, but thank you very much for

trying!

That's it from The View

for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics

at 11.35am here on BBC One.

Earlier we heard from the Commons'

Father of the House, Ken Clarke,

who was given the honour of asking

the final question of

the departing Prime Minister,

David Cameron, in July last year.

And Mr Cameron couldn't

resist turning the tables.

One of the toughest conversations I

had in politics was actually when I

was Leader of the Opposition and I

was trying to get him to join my

front bench and he was on a

bird-watching holiday in Patagonia

and it was almost impossible to

persuade him to come back. Not many

people know this but actually his

first act as Chancellor of the

Exchequer was to fire me as a

special adviser.

He is not always the easiest person

to get hold. Tory modification --

modernisation has not got as far as

getting Ken Clarke to carry a mobile

phone. He briefly had won, but he

says the problem is that people keep

bringing me on it. We had to move, I

seem to remember, in opposition, we

had to move our morning meeting to

accommodate his AM cigar.