30/05/2013 The View


30/05/2013

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longer a threat - Marian Price is released from custody after two

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years. Supporters welcome the move, but the DUP demands an explanation

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from the Parole Commissioners. We'll hear from two senior figures in

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Special Advisers' Bill, are serious fractures appearing in the SDLP?

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recent weeks the game, we have the spectacle of the SDLP beginning to

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eat itself. And with their thoughts on the

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political headlines this week and next, the professors are back in the

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commentary box. And you can, of course, follow the programme on

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threat by the Secretary of State and placed in custody with her licence

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revoked, Marian Price is tonight at home with her family. She still

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faces charges relating to the murder of two soldiers at Massereene

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Barracks and a dissident Republican rally in Londonderry's city

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cemetery. The decision to free her rested with the Parole Commissioners

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- an independent body which does not comment on or explain its actions.

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With me now is the chairman of the Justice Committee, the DUP's Paul

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Givan, and from our Foyle studio, the committee's deputy chair, Sinn

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Fein's Raymond McCartney. Thank you both very much indeed for joining us

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on the programme. Paul Givan, you've already made clear today your

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unhappiness at release of Marian Price. Why are you not content with

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the decision? The Parole Comissioners have done a U-turn. Two

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years ago, they recommended that her licence should we revoked, and the

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Secretary of State had to then act in the public interest, and she was

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sent back to prison. We now have this decision taken by the Parole

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Comissioners to reinstate her licence, and she is now a free

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woman, and I think the public are quite rightly asking what has

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changed from two years ago that now merits her to be a free woman? What

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information has been provided to justify that? Both from the

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Department of Justice and from the Northern Ireland Office, and in the

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killer from politicians who have called and campaigned for her

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release and made representation to the Parole Comissioners, and they

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need to give an explanation why they have done so. But this is an

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independent organisation which has assessed all of the evidence and

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come to the conclusion that she no longer faces a danger to society and

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it is safe for her to be released. We accept it is an independent body.

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The fact that it doesn't come out and speak to the public to explain

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his decisions leaves people to make assumptions that, based upon

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representation that was made at the highest levels of Sinn Fein and

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within the SDLP, there has been political influence brought to bear

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on the decision taken by the Parole Comissioners. What would be wrong

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with that? I think that would be entirely inappropriate. She is now

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free woman, and the public need to know why. People released on licence

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were released with conditions attached to them. We need to be

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convicted by a court and found guilty to be sent to prison, as

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law-abiding people. People on the licence have already been convicted,

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and if they break the conditions, then they have to go back to prison.

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It could be dangerous if other prisoners think that they won't be

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sent back to prison. We don't know all of the details, because the

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Parole Comissioners have not released a statement, but it is

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likely that today's decision will come with conditions attached. We

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again have to accept at face value that whatever those conditions are,

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they would safeguard society at large. Do you accept that? We don't

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know what the conditions are, and that is why we are questioning

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this. I hope that we could interrogate them so that they can

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provide justification for the decisions that they take and the

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processes that they follow. And what do you think the chances are of the

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Parole Comissioners coming to a committee? The public need to be

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reassured that they are doing their job properly. Remaining silent will

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leave many questions unanswered, and that is not good for the system.

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Raymond McCartney, the correct decision today? Sinn Fein welcomed

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the release of Marian Price, and we have a long campaigned that we don't

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feel that any person should lose their liberty and the basis on which

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they lose their liberty is not open to challenge. And it has become very

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obvious since Marian Price has been in prison that her physical and

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mental health has deteriorated to a point that she should be released.

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We understand that Marian Price is now at home with her family. She is

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not in hospital. I don't think anybody is under any doubt that her

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physical health have deteriorated over the years. What do you make of

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Paul Givan's charge that political pressure brought to bear would be

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entirely inappropriate in these circumstances. Your party was

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involved in lobbying the commissioners, as I understand it.

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Why was that right in lobbying the commissioners, as I understand it.

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Why was that writing your view? We have lobbied at every level.

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Particularly needing to understand why somebody is in prison. Paul

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Givan says that that is an invitation to others not to abide by

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the conditions of their licence. When you accept the principle that

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somebody when they have served their sentence should be released and that

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is the end of it, that is the basis on which they have challenged a

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number of people whose licences of been revoked over the years. This

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case was complicated by the fact that Marian Price has contended that

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she was pardoned. No evidence could be found to the contrary. I think it

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has to be made and has been made very clear that since her

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imprisonment, her mental and physical well-being has

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deteriorated, so I think that the Parole Comissioners came to the

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correct decision today based on the circumstances. What about this

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invitation from the committee of which you are the deputy chair to

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invite the Parole Comissioners to come up to the Justice committee and

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to explain the rationale that they came to? Would you welcome that?

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are not happy that you have a group of people who can listen to evidence

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and not be challenged, that they can listen to evidence of a person who

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has been accused of doing something wrong, they can't challenge it.

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there is an advocate bear who act on behalf of the person in question, so

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the person is not unrepresented. With the greatest respect, he can't

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come out and report to the person, he can't be instructed by the

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person, and the person can't be briefed. So in many ways, that whole

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system is open to question. We over the years have always said that what

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we have to do is instil confidence in the justice system. The justice

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system in the past failed us all, and this type of quasi-judicial

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process doesn't help. Do you think that the Parole Comissioners should

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come to Stormont to explain themselves? Yes, I do. The public

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should be able to see politicians from whatever viewpoint being able

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to ask questions of ultimately civil servants who are paid by the

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taxpayers. I want to pick up on one of Raymond's points - such as the

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opposition to a licence system. If somebody receives a life sentence,

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that is for life, and a period of that will be in custody, and then

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they will be under certain conditions, and we are talking about

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that actual principle, we are talking about changing the tools

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that are available to society to deal with people who breaks the law.

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Raymond McCartney's point is that the licence can be revoked without

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any further recourse to the judicial system. The Secretary of State two

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years ago, Owen Paterson, took the decision to put Marian Price back in

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jail. There wasn't a judicial process by which she could argue her

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case or ask for an explanation. judicial process was on the 70s in

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this particular case, and she was found guilty. And she served her

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time and was released. On licence, with conditions. So the Parole

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Comissioners have to determine if those conditions have been released.

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She doesn't need a judge to find her innocent or guilty. You have already

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been broken the law, and been given a second opportunity to live in

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society, but under particular conditions. So this would be a

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fundamental change to how we deal with people that are ultimately

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sentence for very serious crimes. You are trying to have your cake and

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eat it, because you welcome the fact that the Parole Comissioners took

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the decision two years ago to row broke her licence, but today you say

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that they shouldn't have changed their minds 24 months later and said

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that she should be released again. You can't have it both ways. They

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shouldn't have changed their mind without giving any aspiration at all

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apart from the present circumstances have changed. And that takes me to

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the second point, that if we are going to argue that somebody's

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medical condition should determine whether or not they are ever going

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to be in custody, that sends a serious and dangerous message to

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prisoners that if you get ill you will be released. Raymond

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McCartney, what should happen to the two outstanding charges which she is

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still facing? Should she be required to phase due process at this stage,

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as far as they are concerned? Without trying to prejudice the

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outcome of those investigations, we have long argued that if there is

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evidence than it should be presented in open court. She will have the

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opportunity to rebuff that and brief legal representatives in a

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particular way, so therefore that should proceed. What we have to be

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mindful of his/her health. There have been a number of concessions --

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decisions taken due to her hell for conditions, but charges should be

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heard in an open court. Do you think that due process should take place

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as far as those outstanding charges are concerned? I would hope that

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ultimately prosecutions can be brought forward, and if people are

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convicted, then that is due process. There was a similar case where a

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Republican had his licence revoked and then reinstated, and we were

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told them that the charges remain on the books, and we are waiting to

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find out what happens in that particular case.

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Maybe we will bet getting clarification of all of that in due

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course. And we will see the commissioners take up the invitation

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from both of you to attend that committee. Raymond McCartney in our

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Foyle studio and Paul Givan, thank for the SDLP. First the party

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threatened to block a bill banning people who've served long prison

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sentences from being special advisers at Stormont. Then it

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changed its mind after an intervention from party grandees,

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including Seamus Mallon. So has the party been damaged and where does it

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leave the leadership of Alasdair McDonnell? Gareth Gordon reports.

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Ballistic tests and the post-mortem on Mary Travers has shown that when

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two gunmen... The murder of Mary Travers sop -- -- shocked the

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community used to killing. Four years her sister Ann Travers

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buy the grief in silence until Sinn Fein appointed Mary McArdle as

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special adviser. I was shocked and appalled and felt physically sick

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when I heard it. There was no prior warning. We did not know, Sinn Fein

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did not even have the manners to let us know that this was going to

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happen. At the time of the murder Alistair MacDonald was the Travis

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family doctor. He understood the hurt that the appointment would

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cause. Initially his party appeared sympathetic with a private members

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bill had changed its mind. We have made every attempt that we possibly

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could to shape this into Google. This is not been successful and we

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are now considering supporting a petition of concern. But are you

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going to do it? I think we probably will. Ann Travers met with party

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leaders who were less than keen to talk about it. How did the meeting

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go? Show us more respect. Show more respect. But finally the party

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appeared to have a change of heart, agreeing not to block the bill and

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even denying that that was ever an option. Who is going to veto the

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bill? There were hints from your party on the airwaves. There were no

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hints coming from the party. Dominic Bradley raised the issue with that

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because Jim Allister was being so unhelpful, we were having

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difficulty. For more than a week the SDLP wrestled publicly with the

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issue of what to do about the Special Advisers' Bill before coming

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awkwardly to a conclusion loaded with potential pitfalls. In a way

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they were dammed if they did and dammed if they did not. The

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impression is left of the party not sure where it is going who wants to

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take with it. They had even been pressure from the party old card. A

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young girl coming with her family on a Sunday morning was shot dead and

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to put those people with that type of record into the top of the

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administration instrument is to actually negate any of the really

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basic philosophies of the Good Friday agreement in terms of

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reconciliation. It is actually giving them two fingers to the

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Unionist community. It has been a sad spectacle. Part of that nobody

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could handle in that you cannot tell the elders of a party to be quiet.

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When Seamus Mallon weighed in it may things ready much impossible for

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Alasdair McDonnell who had looked as if he was beginning to get his feet

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steady on the ground and get a grip of things. But in recent weeks again

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we had the spectacle of the SDLP beginning to eat itself very much

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like the Ulster Unionist party, it does remind you of that. I suppose

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the role of the leader is to come forward and make a decision and get

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on with it. There seem to be times when the SDLP was struggling to stop

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Alex Attwood was seen publicly struggling. Some people in Sinn Fein

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are suggesting that some individuals in the SDLP might even break ranks

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and support the petition of concern. But those tensions are there and

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they will reflect on Alasdair McDonnell who has had quite a

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difficult time since he came in as party leader. There have been hints

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of some kind of restructuring. There's also talk of the party

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launching a new victim 's, assuming it has not been too damaged by this

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one. -- -- big initiative.

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Gareth Gordon reporting. We did ask the SDLP to take part in tonight's

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programme, but it declined our invitation, though, as Gareth said,

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the party is considering creating an initiative for victims. With me now

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is the Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone. Ann Travers, the

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sister of the murdered teacher Mary Travers, has taken a lead on this

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issue. Do you stand shoulder to shoulder with her in her campaign?

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think Ann Travers is a very dignified and passionate woman who

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shares with many other victims and survivors that dignity and passion,

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that determination to make a difference. She is an incredibly

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valuable member of our victims Forum. There are 23 members of the

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forum who are equally valuable. I have to say there are differences of

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opinion in that forum. And have never claimed to speak on behalf of

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all victims. But in your capacity as the Victims Commissioner, can you

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publicly come out and endorsed her position on this proposed

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legislation? As Victims Commissioner, and the commission

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must make sure that the voices of all victims are heard. When we gave

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our evidence to the committee for Finance and personnel in November we

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first went to the forum to ask them their opinion and there were some

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who were very much in support of and's passionate determination to

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see this determination that at to see this legislation through. Others

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felt differently. I felt this was a political side swipe determines to

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make sure that former prisoners were not offered opportunities to

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rehabilitate and so on. So there are different opinions and we must

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represent both. But if you are to be effective ultimately you have to

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make a choice one way or another otherwise in a sense you do not

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represent anyone. As you have said previously it is a difficult and

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challenging job to make sure that we represent the diverse views of the

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Thames and survivors in this society. And the fit and forum I

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think is a very real microcosm of this society. -- -- the victims

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Forum. People do have real differences of opinion. We have

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uncomfortable conversations but there is agreement on a number of

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things. Did Ann Travers approach you directly and ask for your support?

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No. But she has been in touch with you in recent days? Of course.Did

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she look for a public endorsement of her position? It is important to

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remember that she was speaking on this matter as a private individual.

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She has support from a whole range of victims groups and we at the

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commission would support any victims trying to put forward a campaign.

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Clearly there is a huge diversity of opinion on this piece of proposed

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legislation. That being the case do you think that if it finds its way

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on the statute books it will help the healing process, or promote

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further division? I'm sure some people who this week by celebrating

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and are hugely relieved that this piece of legislation looks set to

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become legislation. There are others who will be equally bewildered and

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disappointed about the fact that this piece of legislation looks set

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to become law. I think we do have to remember there are different views

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on this. You have underscored that again tonight. How do you take this

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forward, how do you take the process of bringing people together as one

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body, representing all of the victims of the conflict of the past

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30 years to try to move the process forward? Where do you start with

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that process? Well we have a forum, 23 people, who would each be the

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Dems as defined -- I know the definition is contested, but we have

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23 victims who regularly meet as volunteers to talk about some very

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difficult stuff. They are formed into three working groups looking at

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dealing with the past, how services are delivered, and how we build for

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the future. I'm excited about the work coming out of the forum. It is

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a huge privilege to be part of that energy and determination to make a

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difference. How close are you to be able to table something tangible

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that will help move the process forward? It is a matter of weeks

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away. We have the chance to meet breast and Deputy First Minister

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towards the end of June and we will table a merchant findings from the

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discussions of the big guns forum from the past eight or nine months.

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-- -- victims Forum. There are points of agreement and of

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disagreement. But what before do, is to give some proposals to the First

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and Deputy First Minister about the way forward. So you're telling us

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that there is a draft document in existence? It is the very first

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draft at the moment. But we will be able to resent them with emerging

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findings. And we will be able to have those discussions. And there is

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enough in that draft document to make it tangible, given the

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differences of opinion you have already talked about? The forum is

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about making a real difference to people. Lots of people are happy to

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sit and theorise and make grandiose statements. The forum is about

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making a difference. Thank you for joining us and interesting to hear

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that that document is in existence. We look forward to seeing it in the

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public domain seller rather than later. Well in commentators corner,

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the professors are with me again tonight, Deirdre Heenan and Rick

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Wilford. Rick, let's talk about the state of the SDLP after a bruising

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week for the party. Has it been damaged? It is. They initially

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seemed to support the bill and Ben said they were opposed to it. And

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they are effectively going to be abstaining when the vote comes. I

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think any damage sustained will be exploited by Sinn Fein. They will

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make them appear to be complicit in what they see as an act of

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vindictiveness and targeted at them. Whereas in fact it is sharply

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focused and narrow in its scope and applies to anyone convicted of a

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serious criminal offence. Just to finish that point, I think for many

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people this is a moment when parties have been forced to pull their moral

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compass out of the door. And you could argue that the SDLP has

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failed. And in fact you selected this is your story of the week.

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did. I felt the SDLP were looking for a middle way and ended up

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appearing indecisive. What they try to do in their later debates was

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turn this into a technical issue, to talk about the technicalities of the

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bill. Whereas people at home and the public want to know, do you believe

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that there is a moral issue at stake here? Deliberately that some things

0:25:110:25:14

are so reprehensible that individuals should not be seen to be

0:25:140:25:16

rewarded for their crimes and allowed to hold high public office.

0:25:160:25:22

And they have dodged that question. That is the quest in the people want

0:25:220:25:30

to know and also, is this an ethical issue. What ethics and morals do we

0:25:300:25:35

want to impart into the future? But in many ways I think this issue is a

0:25:350:25:39

sideshow to the issue about dealing with the past. Unless we deal with

0:25:390:25:45

the past this will come back. Are we to challenge the suggestions now

0:25:450:25:49

that we can say, reconciliation and truth can be separated and that is a

0:25:490:25:58

big issue that I think has been lost in this discussion. Rick, your

0:25:580:26:03

moment of the week. The shocking and brutal murder of drama Lee Rigby

0:26:030:26:13
0:26:130:26:13

last week. As everyone else, my emotional reaction was one just of

0:26:130:26:22

horror. Especially the images that we thought with passers-by taking

0:26:220:26:24

film on their phones and so on. Quite extraordinary and

0:26:240:26:30

unprecedented. But beyond that kind of moral revulsion there is a

0:26:300:26:39

political issue which is the current Home Secretary seeking to have

0:26:390:26:43

powers to intercept communications. The risk is that people are rushing

0:26:430:26:47

to judgement. We do not want Draconian legislation that will

0:26:470:26:55

enable the authorities to fish with a narrow measure net. It has to be

0:26:550:27:05
0:27:050:27:13

very focused I think. And going on a trawl like this is risky. Rick's

0:27:130:27:21

tweet comes from Anne McElvoy, The Economist. She was responding to an

0:27:210:27:30

article about Andy Coulson. He had written an article saying that as

0:27:300:27:33

once the Prime Minister to fail in order to take over at the

0:27:330:27:43

leadership. And Anne McElvoy goes on to say, In other news, bears enjoy

0:27:430:27:50

the woods and the Pope is a Roman Catholic. Deirdre's tweet is from

0:27:500:27:58

Tim McGarry @TimMcGarry. "Have decided to become like Jamie Dornan

0:27:580:28:03

in #thefall. Will utter three words an hour and be topless at every

0:28:030:28:10

opportunity." Is that a good idea? The idea that

0:28:100:28:16

he could at three words in an hour if laughable! It was more the

0:28:160:28:22

topless thing! It has its attraction! It says something about

0:28:220:28:28

the strength of drama being made in northern Ireland. It says something

0:28:280:28:33

about creative industries and trying to remember them. The co-founder of

0:28:330:28:37

Apple spoke about the strength of the creative industries in the North

0:28:370:28:46

West today. And we should seek to develop that. That is the future.

0:28:460:28:53

And there are many young people who want to be part of that. The second

0:28:530:28:57

reading in the house of lords on the same-sex marriage Bill is what I'm

0:28:570:29:01

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