06/06/2013 The View

political stage. Launched this evening, NI21 wants a political

debate that unites Northern Ireland rather than divides it. But is there

the room or the appetite for another party here?

It sounds to me like a road number. Take the NI21 West. It doesn't put

me off but I would need the 21 explained.

I'll be asking Basil McCrea and John McCallister if they believe their

party can really herald a new dawn in local politics.

And with three peers accused of agreeing to do parliamentary work

for payment, we ask if the House of Lords is fast becoming the House of

Disrepute? And we'll hear what our professors make of all that and more

in Commentators' Corner. And you can of course follow the programme on

for better" - the words of John McCallister as he and Basil McCrea

launched their new party, NI21, in Belfast tonight. In a moment we'll

hear from the two men, who join me live in the studio. But first

Stephen Walker, who revealed the name of the party earlier this week,

Using one of Belfast 's newest buildings, they wanted to send a

message that their new party was modern and all about the politics of

the 21st century. They are also keen to stress that many of their party

members have never been involved in politics before. Tina McKenzie is

new to the political world. Experienced in business, she is the

party 's chairwoman. I have worked internationally, across the UK, and

I have never got involved in politics. Most people in Northern

Ireland feel quite different gate from the process. Now it is time to

get those people involved. But what about the name, NI21?

It was changed -- chosen to symbolise Northern Ireland in the

21st century. When it finds favour with the electorate? - macro will it

find. Sounds to me like a road number. Take the NI21 West. It does

not sound like a political party. NI21? You would think they could

come up with something better than that. Something more catchy. NI21?

They're not even number one on the list!

The phrases don't mean anything. It is what they are about, what they

are going to do. That is what the issue is. Not the name. The name is

nothing. It is an all right name, I guess. Not exciting. I guess it is

quite short. It is a break from the other sort of names you have got

established. It does not put me off. I would need

the 21 explained. Basil McCrea and Don McAllister say

their party is prounion, support the Belfast agreement and they say that

religious persuasion should not define political beliefs. But can

they really make an impact? The challenge here is to try to

carve out a distinctive area or space for themselves between the

Alliance and Northern Ireland conservatives. Many people have said

that they are overlapping with those parties. That is definitely a

challenge. They are looking for a voter that is socially liberal,

maybe financially conservative. That has been said in the past. A lot of

those voters would fit into the Alliance or the Northern Ireland

conservative camp. Are there enough of intimate the party a go?

There are, but they have to get them out. There's a lot of these voters

who have turned away from Stormont. Traditionally, they look to

Westminster as a powerhouse. They don't take Stormont seriously. So

can NI21 attract people who in the past have felt let down here?

Kirsty is 21 and is a law and politics graduate.

It is new and fresh and it is going to in gauge people who have not been

engaged before. That interests me. I had been

switched off to the political system. Young people want to get

involved in the new politics. John McAllister and Basil McCrea are the

public face of this new party. To some, that relationship will be

critical in the months ahead. I think it will be crucial to see

how they work together. Basil McCrea has had difficulties in his

relationships with people in the often Unionist party. He is a close

friend of John McAllister for the pit will be interesting to see how

they gel with the people coming to the party. The one experiment showed

that mixed personalities are disastrous.

Tonight has given us a taste of what UKIP -- NI21 stands for. The real

work starts now to commence the people that their party lives up to

its name and delivers something new. Hotfoot from their party launch, I'm

joined by the leader of NI21 and his deputy, John McAllister. Thanks to

you for joining us. Basil McCrea, what makes you different from some

of the other parties that currently inhabit the centre ground in

Northern Ireland politics? We have an identity based on

Northern Ireland. We have fresh ideas, fresh faces, fresh politics.

We have got energy and vibrancy and we are not afraid of going into

opposition. We reject the way things are going on in Stormont at the

moment. We think Northern Ireland deserves better. So that is the old

line, go back to your constituencies and prepare for opposition? We think

there is an alternative between everybody -- being in government and

everybody being in opposition. We intend to do better. If this

about encouraging the Ulster Unionist party and others to leave

the executive and join you on the opposition benches?

Those decisions are for those parties. We are saying that

opposition provides two key elements to democracy. It provides scrutiny

of government and it provides authentic choice for voters. That is

what we want to get out and save. -- say.

You can't have an opposition of two MLAs. You need to galvanise more

people around that flag. One can make a difference, too can

make a difference. As soon as you get out... Look at the diversity in

that room tonight. Look at the hunger that there is out there for

real politics. The disconnect that people feel with Stormont, you have

only to watch the peace there, the disconnect is because you do not

have authentic choice in an opposition in Stormont. That is what

we intend to provide. If it is a disconnect with Stormont it is a

disconnect with the two of you put that you are part of the face of

Stormont. Why are you the magical answer to

the problem? Who says they like us? All of the

people who turned up. We had people queueing. That is a couple of

hundred people. You need to get thousands to vote for you. We have

got thousands to vote for us in the past. We have been doing a lot of

listening and a lot of engagement. The first out there is immense.

People are this content with the way politics is gone. But they want

something better and we are going to offer extra.

You might hold onto your seat where you had a large, popular vote...

John McAllister will hold his seat. He got a good result last time. The

way we look at this, it is up to the people of Northern Ireland. We put

this challenge to them. We have made a stand on conviction. It is up to

them who they vote for. If they like it, they should vote for us.

Will you stand again as a NI21 candidate in Southdown?

Absolutely, yes. But you might just tonight have

signed your political P 45. The last time I was on your

programme, I was resigning on a point of principle, as I wanted

something different for Northern Ireland. I am the father of two

young children. I want something better for my kids, growing up, that

they don't have to move out. That is why I'm doing this. I am going to go

out and campaign. The number of people in streets in Southdown that

have come up to me already, even, importantly, when people have

disagreed with me, when you go through and explain, then they

suddenly start to say, well, you do have a point. That is the market we

have to tap into and offer real choice to. Some people might be

confused about what, precisely, it is that you represent.

You both left a Unionist party and you have set up a Unionist party.

We have set up a party that says the constitutional issue is irrelevant.

Maybe, but you are prounion. Why do people let themselves be bullied

into talking about something that is settled. Everybody knows we are in a

better place here. But we are not killing with the real issues. All

that happens with the tired old parties is vague and on about the

same old thing. -- they bang on. People have had enough. They want

something better, something new. We are going to be it.

He is the interesting thing. You studiously avoided using the word

Unionist in your party title. That is why you end up with NI21. You

don't say you are Unionist. But you have indicated you are prounion on

the constitutional question and you will designate at Stormont.

We chose NI21 because we wanted something different and fresh, that

was about Northern Ireland mature ring in the 21st-century. On the

issue of designations, we didn't design the system. Part of what I

would hope to do would be to look at designation as well. Should we be

moving away... Hear me out... Should be moved away from designations

altogether? Why we have those titles, we are going to have to work

with the system. Why not designated other? That is the system we are in

at the moment. You get for this Stormont elections.

We will have a test in terms of Europe. You will stand the Europe?

John and I will be talking about things. We are talking to a host of

good people who turned up. The electoral contest of what we what

about, we will go out with a mandate and see where that takes us

forward. We used and in every council area? We will be sensible

about this at the start. We will find good candidates and we had

many on display tonight. We will look at where we have the best

chance of getting elected. We are in this for the long term. How view

got significant financial backers you can tell us anything about?

is a grassroots organisation. We started off with volunteers.

Everyone you saw today was a volunteer. But we have momentum, we

have people who are so enthusiastic they will do all the work that

needs to be done. This is not so much a political party, but a

political music -- movement. Politics is a difficult job and

some of those people and their tonight might be enthusiastic, but

in a week or two, they might disappear like snow, and it and

might just be basil and John again. They might be fair weather friends?

I don't think so. How do you know? Over the last few months, a lot of

these people I have got to know. A lot of these people are passionate

about changing Northern Ireland. They have young families and they

want something different. That is what will drive them and motivate

them getting out canvassing and supporting and wanting to be

candidates. That is how this is going to happen. There is grass

roots approach, and that is how we change Northern Ireland. People

watching this might say, it sounds interesting, but I already boats

for the Alliance Party. They are entitled to their opinion. We will

engage with people. People have said to us, we have been talking

about the Disconnect with Stormont. The disillusionment with politics

is huge. But the interest in doing something difference is significant.

If it was the Alliance Party, why aren't they doing it already. We

are there something new. They have not made the breakthrough. They are

providing the fig-leaf in the Executive, we are going to provide

proper opposition at Stormont. That is the difference. After 40 years

they are still sitting at under 8%. You seem to think you will do

better than that after a couple of months? After 40 years that they

are still sitting on the fence. It's been almost 20 years since the

Sunday Times revealed that some MPs were willing to take cash to ask

questions. Yet this week, three peers have been accused of agreeing

to carry out Parliamentary work for money - allegations they all deny.

Earlier this evening, the BBC's Panorama programme broadcast

secretly filmed footage of the Ulster Unionist peer, Lord Laird,

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 68 seconds

discussing a payment for asking So who scrutinises the House Lords?

And is reform of the Upper House now long overdue? We'll hear from

the former NIO Minister, Angela Smith, now Baroness Smith of

Basildon, and the former Ulster Unionist leader, Lord Empey. And

how concerned are you about the damage done by your party colleague,

Lord Laird. Both Houses of Parliament have been involved.

There has been a succession of events since 2009. Anything that

further damages and weakens the credibility of Government in this

country is something we all deplore. The atmosphere in a house this week

has been very poor. People have been very angry, disillusioned and

indeed people feel the public have a very low a patient -- opinion of

politicians. Was Lord Laird advised to engaged in the conversation and

says some of the things apparently he said? An investigation has been

launched and I cannot go into the detail of it. But whether you are

an MP or a peer, you are very unwise to give such interviews to

anybody. It is well known there are lobby groups going around. We know

they are out there. There is events all of the time held in Parliament

and outside it where one is attending events which are run by

organisations that have lobbyists. The House of Lords code of conduct

says, Piers cannot engage in paid advocacy using access to Parliament

to make big profits. As far as Lord Laird is concerned, your party

leader has withdrawn the whip from him and has said, it does not look

good. Until the investigation is completed, we cannot go into it.

But all I can say is, I support the code of conduct of the House of

Lords and I believe it should be adhered to at all times.

Thoroughness Smith, 3 p is accused of taking money or potentially

taking money for asking Parliamentary questions. Do you

think they were ill-advised to engaged -- engage in the

conversations they did? I'm not sure there would advise his right.

I was shocked. No member of the House of Lords or the House of

Commons should take money for doing their jobs. Any lobbyist he wants

to pay you to do something if they had a good cause, an MP would be

happy to get more information about, has an issue that is not worth

pursuing if they have to pay for it. So it makes me angry and upset when

other peers and MPs break the rules in this way. Your party did not

deal with this when you had an opportunity a few years ago. It was

in your election manifesto in 2009 but you did not move on it? By was

working on this. I was giving them a short space of time to voluntary

register. They failed to do so. It is clear now we need a proper

register of lobbyists. I would differentiate between the

constituent, the local organisation who wants to contact the MP, a low

colonisation with a good cause, and these companies who are paid by

other organisations, paid advocates. That is the thing that concerns me

the most. You don't know who their other clients are and they are paid

by somebody who has a cause to lobby MPs. That seems to me to be

dubious of that needs some tighter regulations. Briefly, do you

understand this kind of controversy in the public mind at least

strengthens the case for an elected second chamber? I don't and know if

it does. We have an elected chamber with Patrick Mercer, I think it is

a matter of regulations. Rules, if they have been broken, action must

be taken. The House of Lords itself has passed a bill wanting to

tighten up the rules. And yet the Government has refused to let that

bill pass. It is a clear case for that legislation to go through and

I hope the Government will back down and allow us to tighten up our

own rules as we have tried to do. Have you been asked to take on a

piece of work by somebody else they did not seem quite right? No, I

have never taken on many interests outside the political interests I

have had. I have no outside connections whatsoever. Was that

done deliberately to avoid this situation? Yes, I feel no matter

how hard you try, it is hard to break your life up into

compartments. I am vice-chairman of the all-party Parliamentary group,

and we are dealing with aircraft companies, arms manufacturers. If

you are involved with a company, how can you be objective? I need to

ask you about the new political party we saw launched in Northern

Ireland tonight, NI21. You have heard what so Basil McCrea and John

McCalliter had to say about it. Is there scope for that in the

country? I know those two gentleman fairly well. Basil had the

education portfolio and was on the policing Board. They were quite

patronising. All of us support a lot of the ideas about helping

young people. Neither of them would have been heard if it was not for

the support they got from the Ulster Unionist Party. They have no

mandate to do what they are doing, they are salami-slicing the vote.

Their efforts should have been within the party because that is

when they have the support. It is interesting, not a single one of

those constituencies where there tonight. I regret they have taken

this decision. You won't throw your lot in with them? No, I won't.We

leave it there. Thanks to you both. There is a lot to talk about with

our commentators. Let's talk about the new party we have seen launch.

We heard what Lord Empy had to save. He won't be joining. What did you

make of what Basil McCrea and John McCalliter had to say? There is

evidence to suggest there are people who are on disillusioned and

disengaged and there is room for another party. But it needs to be

dynamic and carve out a distinctive space. I'm not sure they are there

yet. You asked what the difference is between you and the Alliance,

but we don't have a clear answer. I think people will be energised by

the new party and get people to think about it. But they have to be

able to say, we can affect change. John McCalliter has a private

member's bill in process about creating an opposition. If that

could be a success, he could point to that and say, I have affected

change. He has brought in a private member's bill around caravans which

won't bring in a lot of political momentum. Are you persuaded the

Spaceman exists for them to inhabit? Partly. I think there is

some space, because just only over half of the electorate turned out

to vote. So there is a huge slice of the electorate that needs to be

energise and it gives new parties an opportunity. What all political

party needs is momentum will stop it was difficult speaking this

evening, because we have not seen the platform, we don't know what

their manifesto is or how social progressive they are going to be.

How fiscally conservative they are going to be. Plus the fact of

course, and it was interesting Basil McCrea said they were going

to contest the local European elections and the local Government

election. That could be a retrograde step. It could come a

bit early. But they need momentum. The next election is three years

away. They have got to keep moving. Whatever happens, I suspect it will

be interesting. Let's talk about your issue of the

week. This is the fall-out from the SPAD Bill, which has caused quite a

bit of heat in terms of the tone of the debate. The particular thing is

what Sinn Fein does next in the courts. Martin McGuinness said, see

you in court. It suggests Sinn Fein are determined to seek rid --

judicial regress. But interestingly enough, the Attorney-General has

said it is consistent with the European Convention on Human Rights.

What is your he issue? It is a private member's bill. A lone voice

in the wilderness. He is committed to bring something and can achieve

something. He chose belief from our legislative Assembly. We have the

apparatus, but we do little about it. Let's move on to your tweeds of

the week. We can have a smile at this one. It is around the name of

our political party and comes from This was prompted by a remark made

by a Tory MP in the Palace of Westminster. It was a debate in the

Commons on the aspect of the whole service and which he said, did

Junior Minister agree that Junior women doctors placed tremendous

burden on the NHS because they have children. We have a sentence each

on your look ahead? Mine is going to be the fall-out from the Sinn

Fein and the SDLP. I think relations will become particularly

acid. A quick word on that photo? Of all of the gin joints, you have