03/02/2013 The Wales Report

Tonight on The Wales Report, we are at Westminster, asking just how

many elected politicians does it take to govern Wales effectively.

Is it time for a major rethink? And the price of union membership, we

look at the case of the blacklisted Welsh workers, punished for

exercising their basic rights. Stay with us. We are at Westminster for

the programme, the Prime Minister failed to win approval for his

plans to cut the number of MPs and constituencies by 50. We will be

discussing the implications for Wales and its main Wales -- layers

of government. But first, a scandal affecting many trade unions in

Wells involved in the construction industry. That practice of

blacklisting has had a devastating effect. As many as 40 building

firms were said to be using a name, -- using those names, and there

Employers regarded unions as troublemakers and no company bosses

wanted a striker on their hands. Fast-forward 40 years, and it was

in the nothing has changed. Throughout the Eighties and

Nineties, some of the biggest names in construction used a secret

database to vet staff. The secret files contained are the names of

more than 3000 construction workers. Detailing their trade union links

and whether they had reported health and safety breaches and a

whole host of other personal information. Many on the list were

branded trouble makers and politically motivated. Others were

just on therefore simply raising health and safety concerns and some

found it impossible to get work as a result of being on it. When I

started on site, when they were jacket -- checking my details, I

had been working there for a few days. At the end of my second day,

by eight services were not what hat -- required. One a asked the

question, I had to press it, it was told -- I was told about its it

being about my trade union activities which was active on

other sites elsewhere so because of that they refused. They were quite

open about it. It was extremely difficult, there were many

Christmases that I could not provide what other families could

provide, or certainly other people could pride for their families.

When I think about that, I become very bitter. This has affected many

people's lives. Dramatically. Some people have taken their lives

because they think there is no hope for themselves. The existence of

the list which was set up by a company called the consulting

Association was revealed in 2009. There database was sealed -- seized

by the Information Office and the firm was shut down for breaching

data protection laws. What was on the list provoked widespread

outrage. We believe that this runs into tens of thousands of

individuals. We have been unable to put an accurate figure on that,

because the information commissioner has refused to tell us

how many people are affected, they have also refused to contact those

individuals which we think is a scandal. Tonight, we can reveal the

full extent of the list's impact on workers across the length and brat

of Wales. At least 111 builders and construction tradesmen living or

working in Wales were on that list. Details of workers from Anglesey to

Denbigh share, right down to Swansea and Cardiff. They were all

on the consulting Association list. Many still are not aware of their

names were on the list and no one knows exactly what was written

about them. That particular list no longer exists. The UK group which

represents some of the firms involved say that no company would

ever discriminate against a worker for flagging up a health and safety

issues. They also say that there is no evidence to suggest that workers

are being blacklisted today. But we have been told by one construction

worker that it is still going on all over Wales. He does not want us

to reveal his identity because he feels speaking out would get him

into trouble. Blacklisting has existed for such a long time, and

is evident now. I do not think they want any sort of trade unionism at

all on site. They prefer to dictate what goes on, and whether there are

any concerns from the employee with regards to health and safety or any

issues, they would rather undermine that and not have you there. There

are many others who also believe that blacklisting is still

widespread in the construction centre. They are calling for urgent

action. A I think this is a widespread practice, and I would be

deeply sceptical about this being the only instance and the only

instance which is now finished. Publicly-funded construction

project including the Olympic Stadium were built by companies to

have admitted using the Consultant Association's lists to recruit

staff. So how do we stop that from happening again? There are now

calls for the Welsh government to attach conditions to publicly

funding Bills, which spell out how recruited -- employees should be

recruited. Failure to comply would result in a fine. I believe here in

Wales we could do something about procurement policy. We cannot

control the private sector procuring goods, there is a massive

amount, three to �4 billion of public procurement every year here

in Wales. If we can change and affect the way procurement works in

Wales, we can make a big difference across Britain. This was a huge

crime against thousands and thousands of workers, had without

justification. Many working on building sites across Wales now

want compensation for what they are calling the unemployable years, and

they want the world government and local councils to help them stabbed

at blacklisting as a practice -- the Welsh government to help them

stamp out blacklisting. Only will those days when being part of a

union landed you on a list of undesirables will truly be part of

the past. With me now is Corinna Ferguson,

legal officer for the civil rights group Liberty. Thank you for

joining us. Lots of people will find it difficult to believe that

this kind of thing still goes on. To what extent does it go on?

we don't know and we are very concerned those operating in those

industries do not have -- probably have not been given the deterrent

or the penalties the part required to prevent this sort of activity

going on in the future. It could be going on now. A there could be some

people watching saying, if I'm one of business, I want people working

for me he was committed and dedicated, I do not want trouble

makers. I want to find out to those workers are that I wished to avoid.

What is wrong with that? It seems that the industry definition of a

company definition which constitute a troublemaker is someone who is

simply eight member of a trade union, perhaps a shop steward. I

have seen some of the extract from the blacklist of people who had

raised genuine health and safety concerns and we are talking life

and death matters, these are people who had have raised a very serious

health and safety concerns, in the interests of all the workers on the

building sites, and it is not proper grounds to exclude them from

employment. We heard on the report there, people saying it still goes

on. Is that something that you think government needs to tackle in

a more rigorous way? The real issue is that they have not been the

penalties in the past two deter companies from doing this, so I

would not be at all surprised if they think if they can get away

with it. So at the first move, the penalties should be increased

drastically? The information commissioner has the power to issue

monetary penalties, and they can be quite substantial, into the tens of

thousands of pounds. They ought to be doing that if there is any

suspicion that companies are engaging in this practice. We do

think there are grounds for the information of Commissioner to look

at this afresh, given that they did not go into it into any detail in

2009. Thank you very much. If David Cameron had his way, there

would be fewer MPs here at Westminster representing fewer

constituencies. 600 instead of the current 650. Or Wales would lose 10

of its 40 MPs, and there would be a new member -- method of collecting

members to the National Assembly in Cardiff. Those plans are on hold

after the loss of the parliamentary vote. The debate is still very

active. Of the governed by too many elected representatives? -- are we

governed by too many elected representatives? At the local level,

There are business leaders to think so, and a Welsh MEP who thinks so

and the Prime Minister thinks there as well. Think what? That Wales is

over governed. Councillors to assembly members, MPs and MEPs, a

list of world political representatives is long. We asked

some -- We are some of the most governed people in the world,

totting up 8000 community councillors, 1000 there had -- 1300

councillors, more than Scotland, 60 AMs, and that is not touching the

non-elected keepers of the public bodies. How many politicians does

it take to change all run a country? This week the Prime

Minister's attempt to slim down the number of MPs and cut the cost of

politics, as he put it, was thwarted at a vote in Westminster.

Welsh MPs who would have been floating -- facing a process can

breathe easy for now. The notion that Wales has a divine right for

40 MPs is a preposterous thing. Some of the arduous that have been

heard recently trying to defend the status quo are visible and frankly

embarrassing. There is no rational reason why Wales has no -- more MPs

per head than any other part of the UK. The idea that 40 is necessary

to reflect the cultural diversity and the community spirit which is

apparently unique to Wales is just embarrassing. Why should Wales have

more MPs per head than England or Scotland or Northern Ireland?

devolved Wales, the focus is more and more on how we are governed and

by whom. And whisper this, because they know it is the wrong time to

say it, but there are those who believe that given the job there is

to be done if now here in Cardiff Bay, we need more elected

representatives to do it. A number of people have looked at this, most

famously the Richard Commission. And have concluded that 80 members

is of to them for the assembly. It can work with 60 as we have been

proving. I think the best way to look at this is after a week -- if

we stick with 60, we can do less than it we could with 80. If people

want that, that is fair enough. comes a bit of science, sort of.

There is a theory that says most countries throughout the world have

ended up with assemblies or first house sounds is that Correspondent

-- that corresponds to the cube root of the population, the optimum

size. Instead of 60 assembly members, we would end up with 144.

Eighties -- is it a case of cuts to tant tears of politics and a boost

of others? We have too many politicians in the wrong place, too

many MPs and councillors, not enough assembly members. In terms

of the second chamber in London, Wales has not represented properly

at all. The whole situation is in Congress, inconsistent, irrational.

Given that long list of political representatives in debating

chambers, towns all over Wales, in Cardiff Bay, Westminster, Brussels,

some argue there is a confusion, and duplication event of, of roles

between institution. Government is confusing. In modern society, we

expect government to do so much that I get confused as to what is

the responsibility of MPs and AMs sometimes because sometimes the

border is very grey. We have had a bill of the Assembly passed to the

Supreme Court to decide whether we have the responsibility or not.

MEPs, MPs, AMs, councillors, is this a politician first or

essential representation in a compressed so world? If you are of

the over governed persuasion, Is Wales over governed? Yes and no.

I agree that we have too many local authorities, which was the creation

of the former Government. We have 22 -- three national parks, so the

numbers are ridiculous. We also have health boards. The answer is

to slimline the internal governance of Wales and then deal with the

national governance and the external governments. We will come

to those in a second. We will deal with the local authority's first,

which date back to the 90s. It is a second devolution that does not fit

today's settlement. How many should there have been? I think the

decision has been made for us by the health structure. Wales should

have something in the order of between 5 and 7 counties. That is

an enormous reform to undertake. Is there any appetite? I am talking

blue skies, well, grey skies. is realistic? What is realistic is

for this job to be done by the Welsh local Government association

alongside the Welsh Government or indeed the committee or commission

of the Assembly and local Government together. So a drastic

reduction paired with a significant reduction in the number of MPs at

Westminster to 30? Do you think that is realistic? That should have

happened already, really, shouldn't it? On the principles that we have

heard already. I cannot disagree with that but politically I am

supposed to take the other view. I regard the issue of the numbers of

members of Parliament as a secondary issue to the issue of the

governance of Wales. But you think there should be a reduction and his

30 the number you would be happy with? I think it has to be equal

throughout United Kingdom and I look at the United Kingdom as a

federal state, so that means the second chamber as well needs to

reflect the balance. When Scotland changes its relationship in one way

or another from the rest of the United Kingdom, then that will be

another determining factor. Just to nail that down, the 30 or 40

reduction is something you would have been happy with if it had gone

through? I am trying to wriggle on that because I did once vote to

save the souls of those 10 MPs. as part of the bigger reform?

I think there is a deal to be done in a reduction of the number of

local councillors, the reform of local Government, but as part of

that good deal that also takes account of the number of MPs and

the number of Assembly members. What drives the need for more

representation in Cardiff is the amount of work that Cardiff now

does. We will discuss Cardiff in one second. It may just complete

the Westminster picture. What is the nature of Welsh representation

to be in the House of Lords in the second chamber? Well, you know, I

despair. I was one of the original members of something called

Democratic peers, led by my friend Richard, and of course we have not

got anywhere. It has all gone into the sand and I very much regret

that. Partly because I find being called a Lord an embarrassment. I

am a senator, in that sense, and that is not unusual, for people to

be members of the National Assembly in their region and also to do work

at the state level, or indeed at European level. What would an

acceptable level of Welsh representation be in the second

chamber? It has to be related to the population. So it would be 5%

of the membership of a reformed House. I think that would work very

well at 350. The US Senate has much less than that. Cardiff, crucially,

given the increasing responsibility being taken on by it National

Assembly, are you in favour of an increase in the number of AMs to

80? Yes, I was convinced of it in theory when Richard reported. Along

with that goes another reform, which is the introduction of the

single transferable vote in multi- member constituencies. I am

absolutely clear that this division between regional members does not

make any sense for the electorate or the political parties. Therefore

I think we have to go for that but also convince the people of Wales

that it is necessary, at and get agreement across parties. This is

how devolution has developed, different to Scotland, in Wales

through the last referendum. So it does mean the Conservatives, the

Liberal Democrats, Labour and played come we agree in the way

forward. It is a challenge. -- and Plaid Cymru. It is a challenge and

people tell us constantly that they are fed up with the numbers of

politicians. Yes, but we are making laws. The level of governance of a

small nation, if you prefer, that is why governments mostly happens.

Finally, timescale. What you are talking about his ambitious, Major

in scope. By one could such a reform package be implemented? --

buy wine? I think by eight the next Assembly elections. How realistic

is that? I am pragmatic and realistic but also ambitious for

Wales. I do not see effective democracy ever come into the second

chamber or even the first chamber in Westminster. I see the challenge

that Scotland faces. Whatever happened in the referendum in

Scotland, there will be changes in the Government. The Government of

Wales must be effective. It must be possible to call Welsh ministers to

account more effectively than we do now and to make better Welsh law.

What is a point of making Welsh law after 1000 laws if we do not make

it better than it has been done in Westminster?

Here in London the latest economic data suggests that retailers are

weathering the economic storm a little better than other parts of

the UK and certainly better than in many parts of Wales. Boarded-up

shops, empty town centres, and a rise in out-of-town retail parks is

an all-too-familiar scene. Is it already too late to rescue the

Welsh High Street? One Welsh businesswoman says she has the

answer. More from her in a moment. But first, the voices of Newport

and shopkeepers there. In 15 months the foot fall has

probably dropped by 25% because of fewer people coming into town

because of shops disappearing. We are being pushed out by big

companies like Tesco, ASDA, especially my trade personally as

if shoe repairer. On the High Street is -- it is not looking good.

When my lease runs out it might not be with me staying here. I have

worked here for 22 years and I have seen it go from OK to worse.

Unfortunately it is becoming much harder, very hard. This town had

renovations in 1980, it is now 2013 and nothing has been done. Parking

is atrocious and expensive. People cannot afford it and they tend to

go out of town. If the Government and the councils do not pull out

their fingers, there will be no city centres. We have been here now

in the city centre for about eight years. The changes that we have

seen have been at the drop in foot fall, and there is nothing being

done down this end of the city centre to encourage shoppers down

here. They need to do something with the business rates, and until

then businesses will be leaving. Newport was starting to go downhill

and we have seen that for a year or so. We have got to ride it out to

see how long we can go. If anything is not done, within this year, I

would not like to say what will happen. I have been here for eight

years. About 10 shops have closed in the past couple of weeks, since

Christmas. Most people are going. I will be going when my lease runs

out. With me now is Laura Tenison, the founder and managing director

of maternity wear and children's clothing chain JoJo Maman Bebe.

That was depressing. Do you think that is representative? Absolutely.

Newport city centre is just tragic. I love Newport, particularly the

market. There is a real feel of community there, but over the years

it is just dying, dwindling. What has gone wrong? Look at Tesco on

the outskirts of town. It has just doubled its footprint, its space.

Why? I don't know why we need to have a Tesco that drains everyone

away from the city centre with free parking. As the other retailers

were saying, the fact that business rates are still quite high, the

fact that parking is virtually impossible in the city centre. I go

into the town centre because I'm on my way to the station and I am on a

bicycle but most people, unless they are on foot, they can't really

get into the city centre. There is very little to come in for. The

towns that are successful in this country are the towns and suburbs

of large cities that have a vibrant local communities. What we want is

people living above the shops so that they use the local retailers

and form a community. Lots of people watching will say, hang on,

we are dealing with the trend that has been going on for over 20 years.

Out-of-town shopping centres, people drive to them and find them

convenient in many ways. The parking is easy and all the rest of

it. It is pie in the sky to talk about reversing that. It will not

happen. These town centres need to be helped in a different way,

surely. The big shops are not going to come back in, are they?

disagree completely. My entire business plan is based on

regenerating local high streets. We don't go into out-of-town shopping

centres, and that we boycott them. I occasionally go into a shopping

scheme, but only when it is city centre. The reason is because I

cannot bear the waist. We have these amazing buildings. I know

Newport well. The buildings and architecture, the community

atmosphere, it is fantastic. But the lack of foot fall means that

everything is dying. What we can do is look at the long-term prospects

for the city and do not allow any more out-of-town building.

Encourage people in with lower rates and good incentives. Why

can't we have good, local free parking in the city centre? Are you

paying a price for the way that you have gone about this, in business

terms? If you had gone into the big out-of-town shopping centres with

the high football, would you have done better business? Is that right

or wrong? I don't think so because I am filling a gap in the market.

We find that if we go into the right towns, there is a lot of

passing trade that does not want to put their small children in a calf

and drive to an out-of-town shopping centre. -- in a car. In

fact people call us up and ask us to come into their town. They don't

want to put their toddlers in the car for an hour and dry for an hour

to the shops. If you have the shops in your local community, you can

have a really nice day out. Shopping centres are very

impersonal. How often do have a nice chat with the security guard

in a shopping centre? You don't. You walk in and do your business

and there is no community atmosphere. In your local town

there is a community and this fear and in Newport we can see that

still but something has to happen quick otherwise it will be too late.

-- community atmosphere. You think there is still some hope? Some

people think it is too late. have to act quickly but we have got

some success stories. I am opening in Monmouth later in the year,

which has a thriving High Street. It has good independent retailers

that have been there for years. Actually, even through the tough

economic times they have succeeded. We have some small chains coming in.

Some national names coming in. Actually I do believe that while I

am an independent retailer, I don't happen to have 56 stores, I have

grown because I unsuccessful. We have an enormous mail order based

as well. If I open in Monmouth, he does not mean that the other

retailers will be damaged. It actually means that they will

benefit. What is sad about Newport and the High Street there, you

don't see many national brands because they have moved to the out-

of-town shopping centres. If the council had not given them planning

permission to open out of town, they would be in the city centre.

They want to get the Newport spent, but they will get it whenever it is

most convenient. It is good to hear about a good Welsh success story.

Thank you. That's it for this week's programme. We're taking a

break next week, it's the big BAFTA night, but remember you can get in