27/01/2013 The Wales Report


27/01/2013

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Tonight, the tuition fees gamble, and warnings that the Welsh

:00:09.:00:14.

government's policy could damage universities. The economy has

:00:14.:00:20.

shrunk, is it time for another plan? Will football soon kick rugby

:00:20.:00:26.

into touch to become Wales's national sport? Rugby has become

:00:26.:00:32.

the sick man of Welsh sport. Welcome to a controversial game of

:00:32.:00:42.
:00:42.:00:46.

two cards. -- too halves. Good evening, and welcome to a programme

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that looks at the issues to you in Wales, and the important decisions

:00:51.:01:00.

about our lives. It is a Welsh government flagship policy, and a

:01:00.:01:05.

buffer to the rise in tuition fees across the UK. Education experts

:01:05.:01:09.

are warning that the decision by the Education Minister to top up

:01:09.:01:13.

the amount paid by Welsh students through a grant, no matter where

:01:13.:01:18.

they study, is taking vital money away from Welsh universities. The

:01:18.:01:23.

number of Welsh students choosing to study outside of Wales is going

:01:23.:01:28.

up, while the number of students that choose to study inside Wales

:01:28.:01:35.

is going down. There are growing fears that the Government's policy

:01:35.:01:45.
:01:45.:01:47.

After three years of academic grass, it is time to celebrate. Graduation

:01:48.:01:52.

day at Swansea University, just like anywhere else, is a

:01:52.:01:57.

recognition of achievement, a culmination of a journey. As we are

:01:57.:02:02.

reminded in the ceremony, a university education is not just an

:02:02.:02:08.

investment to shape a graduate's lives, once they become

:02:08.:02:11.

professionals, they are learning experience will help to shape our

:02:11.:02:17.

lives as well. They want future generations are graduates to be

:02:17.:02:25.

just as happy as -- and proud as they are here today. The prospect

:02:25.:02:31.

of debt means that celebrations are muted. Now that degrees are more

:02:31.:02:36.

expensive, the Welsh government will pick up the bill for graduates.

:02:36.:02:44.

The students started his medical course in Exeter last September. It

:02:44.:02:48.

was the first one way universities are charging higher fees. His

:02:48.:02:58.

course costs of �9,000 the AA, and five -- almost �9,000 here, and

:02:58.:03:03.

almost half of that is met by the Welsh government. Summer my sisters

:03:03.:03:13.

are studying writer now -- some of my sisters are studying, and it

:03:13.:03:21.

would not have been financially viable for me to do it. The course

:03:21.:03:26.

is very good, many people want to stay in England to practice,

:03:26.:03:31.

because they feel they are better resources. Able have better

:03:31.:03:37.

opportunities. It is a marketplace. When Welsh

:03:37.:03:47.
:03:47.:03:48.

students due to leave Wales, their money goes as well. More than 7,000

:03:48.:03:53.

students crossed the border last year, more than the year before.

:03:53.:03:58.

They took with them an estimated �31 million. In Scotland, students

:03:58.:04:03.

to live there get all of their fees paid. Only if they go to a Scottish

:04:03.:04:08.

university. There has always been a question mark about the economic

:04:08.:04:12.

wisdom of giving students a free choice of whether they want to go,

:04:12.:04:16.

been given a subsidy. That does not happen in Scotland, and I can't

:04:16.:04:20.

think of any other countries that would do it. It is generous, but

:04:20.:04:26.

perhaps it is too generous. Welsh universities, the money

:04:26.:04:30.

leaving the country has a serious effect. There is only a finite

:04:30.:04:35.

amount of money in the part, money for fees, and money for grants

:04:35.:04:41.

given directly to universities for teaching and running buildings.

:04:41.:04:48.

More spent on fees means less bent on block grants. In 2012, the block

:04:48.:04:56.

grant funding was cut. What it means, indirectly, is that the

:04:56.:04:59.

money available for higher education in Wales is less than it

:04:59.:05:03.

would have been, it would be helpful to review the funding

:05:03.:05:11.

system for Welsh universities. We need to focus resources on where it

:05:11.:05:14.

is most needed, and where we are going to get the best value for

:05:14.:05:22.

money for the Welsh government, and the future prosperity Wales. There

:05:22.:05:27.

are students and their fees coming into Wales as well. Last year they

:05:27.:05:32.

brought in �60 million for Welsh universities. The big worry is that

:05:32.:05:39.

fewer English students are crossing the border. Numbers dropped by 17%

:05:39.:05:45.

in 2012. Forever variety of reasons, the number of students coming

:05:45.:05:53.

across the border has declined. -- for a variety. The calculations of

:05:53.:06:00.

how the flow of money is going may have to be revised. It means that

:06:00.:06:07.

the trends are falling application rates. If these trends continue,

:06:07.:06:12.

there will be serious repercussions. Are you surprised by the enrolment

:06:12.:06:22.
:06:22.:06:23.

figures, and their friends? feared that this would happen. --

:06:23.:06:33.
:06:33.:06:34.

trends. If the universities don't get stronger, they were not -- they

:06:34.:06:38.

will not attract students. Where are we heading with this policy?

:06:38.:06:43.

fear it is going into trouble. In spite of these warnings, a

:06:43.:06:47.

government rethink is not likely. The Welsh government has issued a

:06:47.:06:52.

statement saying, our policy on this is very clear to the next

:06:52.:06:56.

election. We're not going to change this. There is nothing in the

:06:56.:07:00.

figures to suggest we should. Everyone will be hoping they are

:07:01.:07:04.

right, the new figures showing applications for next year's

:07:04.:07:09.

courses are published this week. Only then will we have an idea if

:07:09.:07:18.

the sums are going to add up. Nobody expected good news on the

:07:18.:07:25.

economy, but it was worse than expected. Economic output fell by

:07:25.:07:29.

0.3% in 2012, and the UK may go into a third recession in four

:07:29.:07:38.

years. Manufacturing output fell by 1.5%, reinforcing the impression

:07:38.:07:43.

that the last year was a year of survival, not growth. There are

:07:43.:07:47.

still no immediate signs of prosperity returning to our

:07:47.:07:52.

factories, and high streets, anytime soon. There are now

:07:52.:07:56.

increasing calls, including from Nick Clegg and Boris Johnson for

:07:56.:07:59.

the Westminster government to change the strategy of public

:07:59.:08:06.

spending cuts, and to plough money into massive infrastructure

:08:06.:08:13.

projects. Would that work for Wales? Joining me is a former

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economic adviser to Margaret Thatcher. Thank you for coming in,

:08:18.:08:21.

the government has been cutting hard, they have been cutting deep,

:08:22.:08:30.

and eight they have been cutting fast? They have not been cutting as

:08:30.:08:38.

much as the Labour Party, or they have put themselves been -- they

:08:38.:08:42.

themselves have been saying. It has been quite a moderate series of

:08:42.:08:48.

cuts. Welfare spending has risen. If Boris Johnson is saying, hang on,

:08:48.:08:56.

we need to think again about this, we to invest in infrastructure, it

:08:56.:09:01.

just can't be about cutting? That is the problem. Infrastructure is

:09:01.:09:05.

an easy target, that criticism is reasonable. What is not reasonable

:09:05.:09:09.

is the idea that the British government can go ahead, and not

:09:09.:09:13.

worry about the deficit. We have one of the largest ones in the

:09:13.:09:18.

world, and we have to bring it down, the debt will spiral out of control,

:09:18.:09:25.

and we could get into a dangerous place. If you attack welfare, and

:09:25.:09:29.

benefit payments, you are going to have an effect on the economy.

:09:29.:09:37.

There is a whole section of the economy which is dependent on

:09:37.:09:42.

benefits? Economy is poorer as a result of the shock that has

:09:42.:09:46.

occurred. You cannot manufacture of riches in the economy. All we are

:09:46.:09:51.

talking about is the sharing of the austerity measures. Working people

:09:51.:09:55.

have been hit very hard by it. People on welfare benefits,

:09:55.:10:00.

obviously the pain of cuts has got to be shared pretty widely. You

:10:00.:10:08.

cannot let welfare rise by 6% in real terms. Multinationals like

:10:08.:10:12.

Starbucks are benefiting from not paying tax, you are suggesting that

:10:12.:10:18.

we should cut back on but their payments to the most vulnerable in

:10:18.:10:28.
:10:28.:10:29.

society? There is no way you can let welfare romper away. We have to

:10:29.:10:39.
:10:39.:10:43.

remember that Starbucks creates jobs. -- romp. They need sensible

:10:43.:10:47.

tax policies, business support, structure, they need to come to

:10:47.:10:51.

their senses over the regulation over the banks, that is killing

:10:51.:10:55.

credit. They need to get that going again, instead of going mad about

:10:55.:10:59.

regulating the banks, and piling up their costs. We need to get credit

:10:59.:11:05.

going. You are talking about what would benefit the Square Mile, the

:11:05.:11:10.

City, the south-east of England. There are two economies, there is

:11:10.:11:17.

that one, and the economy in Wales. That would benefit the people who

:11:17.:11:21.

have done pretty well on the last 30 years, the rest of us will be

:11:21.:11:31.
:11:31.:11:32.

suffering was -- for sometimes? That is nonsense. This economy

:11:32.:11:39.

needs improvement to credit. We want to create growth in Wales, we

:11:39.:11:43.

don't want to increase handouts. The problem with government is that

:11:43.:11:52.

it has inherited a begin tartan that economy. It cannot afford it.

:11:52.:12:00.

-- entitlement economy. The fact that the matter raised, people in

:12:00.:12:04.

Wales don't have any jobs, they can't get any credit, they are

:12:04.:12:09.

absolutely on the floor, there are people who are suffering at the

:12:09.:12:15.

moment. Your recipe, you're ready, is good for the south-east, but how

:12:15.:12:21.

long would it be before Wales could recover under your plan? Wales is

:12:21.:12:24.

recovering at the same rate as everywhere else. The growth in

:12:24.:12:29.

employment is quite decent, nearly 2%. Wales is Sheringham that. You

:12:29.:12:36.

are painting the wrong picture. -- Wales is sharing in that. There are

:12:36.:12:40.

people who will be shouting at the television, come and live in my

:12:40.:12:45.

life. You are talking as an economist, bankers, profiteers have

:12:45.:12:53.

got us into this mess? Da is not really true. -- that is not really

:12:53.:13:01.

true. Changes in the world economy has affected us. We have to live in

:13:01.:13:04.

the world we are in, we have to adapt to that world, so does

:13:04.:13:09.

government. Ordinary people often feel that government should do more

:13:09.:13:13.

for them, but the problem is, they can look around, and see that the

:13:13.:13:18.

economy is in a bad state, because of the crisis. We'll have to adapt

:13:18.:13:23.

to these changes. Thank you very much.

:13:23.:13:30.

Here are some more disturbing figures, more than half of Welsh at

:13:30.:13:34.

-- adults are overweight, and we have some of the highest obesity in

:13:34.:13:37.

the UK are. The statistics show that the number of obese people in

:13:38.:13:42.

Wales lacks just behind that of the USA. What can be done to tackle the

:13:42.:13:49.

problem? Is surgery one of the solutions? Currently the criteria

:13:50.:13:53.

for surgery is different in England, patients only qualify if they have

:13:53.:13:58.

a higher body mass index, and they must show that they have more

:13:58.:14:03.

problems to qualify. One surgeon is calling for the threshold for the

:14:03.:14:08.

NHS funded surgery to be lowered. We will hear from him in a moment,

:14:08.:14:15.

he is a report. -- here's a report on a woman who tried dieting for

:14:15.:14:25.
:14:25.:14:35.

years. She had to wait three years Life for me at 22 stone, 22.5, was

:14:36.:14:40.

very hard. I fell down the stairs twice because I could not see where

:14:40.:14:47.

I was going. These are things that people forget about. It is actually

:14:47.:14:52.

a disability as well when you are obese. I was classed as morbidly

:14:52.:14:59.

obese. I look like an elephant, don't I? I suppose I look like a

:14:59.:15:05.

hippo that way. Your confidence is just so low. It is in your feet.

:15:05.:15:13.

You just feel rubbish in yourself. You are at such a low ebb and the

:15:13.:15:19.

lower you feel, the more you eat for comfort. Even though you do not

:15:19.:15:24.

think you are eating much, you actually are. It is lovely when you

:15:24.:15:34.
:15:34.:15:37.

go looking at the clothing that you have not had on in months. It is

:15:37.:15:41.

not a major operation. It is keyhole surgery and just because of

:15:41.:15:46.

that I have had a major life change. Every Tuesday I weigh myself to see

:15:46.:15:51.

what I have lost. Within the last five-and-a-half months I have lost

:15:51.:15:59.

5.5 stone. I am just absolutely over the moon. I am a totally

:15:59.:16:06.

different person. I am working. I am saving the NHS money. I am

:16:07.:16:10.

saving the council money. I am saving benefits money because I was

:16:10.:16:17.

on all that before. Now I suppose I am adding to the public purse,

:16:17.:16:23.

really. This is the size of a plate that I would eat normally, about

:16:24.:16:28.

four tablespoons, and I am full. A tour of beans does me three days.

:16:28.:16:35.

Marvellous. I get great value out of my foot now. I have had negative

:16:35.:16:45.
:16:45.:16:46.

feedback from having a gastric sleeve done. I was quite shocked. I

:16:46.:16:50.

had an email from somebody saying to me, why don't you just shut your

:16:50.:16:56.

mouth and eat less and then lose weight? That was not the point.

:16:56.:17:03.

Give people the choice that are obese to have a life, to live, to

:17:04.:17:08.

come off these benefits and the NHS and everything else, by doing one

:17:08.:17:17.

simple operation. The operation is �20,000. Even that, I mean think of

:17:17.:17:24.

the long term. I have another 20 odd years working life. What am I

:17:24.:17:29.

paying back in with that? If I was to meet the people in Wales that

:17:29.:17:32.

have the say on who gets the operation and who does not, I would

:17:32.:17:38.

tell them to walk 10 miles in my shoes. At the end of the day, I

:17:38.:17:43.

think it is a right, I think it is everybody's right to live. Jenny

:17:44.:17:48.

cannon with some positive thinking. Joining me is Jonathan Berry, a

:17:48.:17:53.

consultant surgeon who carried out with operations at a hospital in

:17:53.:17:59.

Swansea. -- carries out weight loss operations. That look like a

:17:59.:18:07.

drastic operation but how effective is it? It is very effective. It is

:18:07.:18:12.

keyhole surgery and it removes a 2% of the stomach. It has a twofold

:18:12.:18:21.

action. -- 80% of the stomach. She will lose 60% of her weight over

:18:21.:18:25.

two years, but it is not so much just the weight loss, it is the

:18:25.:18:29.

improvement in diseases related to obesity. But it is quite an

:18:29.:18:34.

expensive procedure. What do you make of the opinion that somebody

:18:34.:18:38.

expressed, emailing her, by telling her not to eat so much? I disagree

:18:38.:18:43.

that it is expensive. We know that this kind of surgery is not just

:18:43.:18:46.

one operation but a number of operations, which pay for

:18:46.:18:50.

themselves in about two-and-a-half years. What I mean is that lots of

:18:50.:18:54.

people have issues with being overweight. We know with these type

:18:54.:18:59.

of operations that patients with diabetes, blood pressure issues, a

:18:59.:19:04.

multitude of issues associated with being overweight, they all go away.

:19:04.:19:07.

I sympathise with some arguments that these people should just go

:19:07.:19:14.

and eat less. However, if your vice is eating, much like smoking or

:19:14.:19:18.

alcohol, you can completely abstain from smoking or drinking alcohol,

:19:18.:19:24.

but we have all got to eat. Well, your solution might sound fine, but

:19:24.:19:28.

it is expensive at a time when the NHS is trying to find any way that

:19:28.:19:33.

it can to save money. Would it not be better to spend that money on

:19:33.:19:39.

prevention rather than an expensive cure? I completely agree. There are

:19:40.:19:42.

some public health strategies in place at the moment that believe

:19:42.:19:46.

that prevention is better than cure but that will not help my patients

:19:46.:19:50.

that are 25 stone, sitting at home. We all know that we should get off

:19:51.:19:55.

the bus one stop earlier, eat more fruit and fresh vegetables, but

:19:55.:20:00.

that is not the solution to these problems that the patients have.

:20:00.:20:04.

What are the criteria that should be used in Wales to decide whether

:20:04.:20:08.

a patient should qualify for the procedure that we saw in that film?

:20:08.:20:12.

When I was training in the surgery in England, if you were a patient

:20:12.:20:17.

with a body mass index of more than 40, that being a ratio of your

:20:17.:20:23.

height to wait, or the ratio of 35 with any issues like swollen ankles,

:20:23.:20:30.

you are eligible for this surgery. We have a bizarre situation in

:20:30.:20:34.

Wales where they have to have a body mass index of 50, twice the

:20:35.:20:42.

weight they should be, and have an controlled illnesses like diabetes,

:20:42.:20:47.

blood pressure and sleep apnoea. That clearly cannot go on. Would

:20:47.:20:52.

you so that they have to be parity between Wales and England? -- would

:20:53.:21:01.

you say? Certainly. We should move towards the English criteria. We

:21:01.:21:05.

should have 300 patients per year on a population of 3 million and we

:21:05.:21:09.

have 67, so there is catching up to do. Thank you.

:21:09.:21:12.

It is a moment that will live on in sporting history and it is

:21:12.:21:16.

incredible to think that it is 40 years ago to the date that this

:21:16.:21:26.
:21:26.:21:38.

John Williams! Ryan Williams! John Dawes. Great dummy. Tom Davies. The

:21:38.:21:48.
:21:48.:21:53.

Well, the try-scorer himself will be joining me to talk about but

:21:53.:21:58.

iconic moment and a very different sporting life. Four decades on, and

:21:58.:22:01.

it is football and not rugby drawing the big crowds to weekly

:22:01.:22:05.

matches in Wales, with the success of Cardiff city in the championship

:22:05.:22:09.

and Swansea's promotion to the Premier League. A question that

:22:09.:22:13.

once seemed unthinkable is now being asked. As football replaced

:22:13.:22:19.

rugby in the sporting hearts of the nation? Well, yes, according to one

:22:19.:22:22.

Welsh historian. He has been to his own theatre of dreams to tell us

:22:22.:22:32.
:22:32.:22:34.

I think the time has come to face the fact that rugby has become the

:22:34.:22:39.

sick man of Welsh sport. We have got it wrong in terms of politics

:22:39.:22:43.

and administration. The focus has switched away from the clubs to the

:22:43.:22:46.

regions in a way that indicate that rugby is no longer catching the

:22:46.:22:54.

imagination of the people of Wales. There are some vibrant, lively

:22:54.:23:01.

clubs in Wales, like Party Brit. To be absolutely honest, the level of

:23:01.:23:04.

rugby in the Welsh Premiership is very poor indeed. The game has

:23:04.:23:10.

become tedious and boring. What of the international days? What are

:23:10.:23:19.

they now? The folk festival rather than imaginative in -- adventures

:23:19.:23:23.

that they once were. Football is a different kettle of fish. Everybody

:23:23.:23:26.

is talking about the game. In Singapore people are talking about

:23:26.:23:35.

Wayne Rooney, and of course of in that list is the Swansea. People

:23:35.:23:42.

are talking about Swansea around the world. Swansea being in the

:23:42.:23:46.

Premiership has taken Welsh sport to universal audience which has

:23:47.:23:52.

happened in an unprecedented way. Rugby, where are you? One

:23:52.:23:54.

consequence of this has been the whole nature of sporting

:23:54.:23:59.

conversation has changed in Wales. In the old days, we used to talk

:23:59.:24:04.

endlessly about the Welsh Rugby 15. We were always picking our dream

:24:04.:24:08.

team and we took great pride in spotting the new centre, the new

:24:08.:24:12.

back-row forward. It has all gone. Now we just talk about whether

:24:12.:24:20.

Bellamy will take City into the Premiership. Football no longer

:24:20.:24:24.

belongs to the fans in a bobble hats. Everybody is jumping on the

:24:24.:24:29.

bandwagon. If you know nothing about football, soccer, you can go

:24:29.:24:34.

to any social event, any dinner party at your peril. Those of us

:24:34.:24:40.

who grew up in the old days, when we stood with 5000 others, we know

:24:40.:24:46.

in our heart of hearts that the bubble might burst. The television

:24:46.:24:50.

money and foreign investment will go. But for the time being we have

:24:50.:24:53.

the festival of football, which has brought great players from all

:24:53.:24:58.

round the world to play in Cardiff and Swansea. What we must do at

:24:58.:25:02.

this vital moment is ensure that we invest in our own talent and

:25:02.:25:09.

produce our own stars. But the football culture that we are

:25:09.:25:12.

creating should be one of excellence, it should be home-grown.

:25:12.:25:20.

We must not just be spectators at this current feast of football.

:25:20.:25:25.

Joining me now is a rugby legend Gareth Edwards. First of all, we

:25:25.:25:29.

have to talk about that try. Did you think when you've scored it

:25:29.:25:33.

that you would be asked questions about it for the rest of your life?

:25:33.:25:37.

I was wondering if I would be asked questions about it after the game

:25:38.:25:41.

because I remember it was very early in the game. The only thought

:25:41.:25:48.

on mind and everybody else's minds was to beat New Zealand and I knew

:25:48.:25:51.

there would be a reaction. I thought it was vitally important to

:25:51.:25:55.

win the match but little did I think that at the time. I had a

:25:55.:25:58.

feeling from the noise of the crowd that maybe it had been something

:25:58.:26:01.

special, but I never thought for one minute that we would still be

:26:01.:26:06.

discussing it years later. It was not just special. It was

:26:06.:26:11.

inspirational, and not just for rugby players and supporters.

:26:11.:26:16.

Inspirational for sports men of all kinds. But picking up on that

:26:16.:26:23.

report, the suggestion is that a young generation now is being

:26:23.:26:27.

inspired by football and not by club rugby. That may very well be

:26:27.:26:31.

the case. I have enjoyed football all my life. I could have become a

:26:31.:26:37.

professional footballer. They ended up playing rugby, with no regrets.

:26:37.:26:42.

-- I ended up playing rugby. I enjoyed watching Swansea play this

:26:42.:26:47.

year and over the last years I have watched Cardiff City play. I like

:26:47.:26:55.

all sports in Wales. I don't care which side of the coin you on.

:26:55.:26:58.

you were a multi-talented sportsman as a young man, would you have made

:26:58.:27:03.

the same decision again? Would you go for rugby or football now?

:27:04.:27:08.

you are young, you do not think about money. Lots of people say

:27:08.:27:11.

that you want to play football because there is more money in it,

:27:11.:27:15.

but I don't think young children do that. I have grandson's that play

:27:15.:27:21.

rugby and soccer on the weekend, and they enjoy them both. I am

:27:21.:27:26.

encouraging them to do that. Nobody knows what the future is. Some

:27:26.:27:31.

children stop growing, so rugby, physical game, is not for them but

:27:31.:27:37.

football is. This is an old chestnut. We have discussed this

:27:37.:27:41.

over 30 or 40 years. When Wales beat Russia in the World Cup,

:27:41.:27:49.

soccer was the best game in Wales. When Wales did well winning the

:27:49.:27:53.

Grand Slam and the World Cup, rugby was the best game. Has regional

:27:53.:28:00.

club rugby inspired the following that soccer has got? I think that

:28:00.:28:04.

rugby per se needs to have a good look at itself. There is no doubt

:28:04.:28:08.

that there is excitement about soccer and the way it is played at

:28:08.:28:11.

the moment and of course there is the success that the local sides

:28:11.:28:17.

have had, Cardiff and song say, over recent years. That is a fact.

:28:17.:28:21.

-- Cardiff and Swansea. The regional game has not enjoyed the

:28:21.:28:26.

success that people had. They have not won the European Cup, which is

:28:26.:28:29.

possibly the stages by which we would be measured. But the Welsh

:28:29.:28:36.

national side has done extremely well. As much as I enjoy watching

:28:36.:28:40.

the national soccer side play, we have not won the World Cup

:28:40.:28:43.

qualifier never mind the World Cup. You have to compare like with like

:28:44.:28:49.

but that is difficult. Yes. We will all be rooting for Wales in the Six

:28:49.:28:54.

Nations. What is your tip? I think we can cause an upset. Everybody

:28:54.:28:58.

tends to think of Ireland as a favoured when they come to Cardiff,

:28:58.:29:05.

but I cannot see that. -- a favourite. It depends on injuries,

:29:05.:29:09.

no question, but if we can get some people back into the team, nothing

:29:09.:29:14.

will stop Wales. There will only ever be one Gareth Edwards. Thank

:29:14.:29:18.

you for joining us. That is it for the programme this week. You can

:29:18.:29:23.

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