07/07/2013 The Wales Report

ask him his priorities for our schools and the Welsh economy. And

how does a man who does not have the Wales Report, a special edition of

the programme. It is the last edition of the current series and I

am delighted to welcome the first Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones.

Thank you for joining us. pleasure. It has been a big week in

this place, and given the debate on organ donations, it has been the

strongest statement, if you like, of devolution in action. Do you see it

that way? I think that is true. was many hours in debating with lots

of very good and thoughtful contributions. And unusually a

number of members did not make up their minds until the debate had

finished, which is always unusual. It was an important piece of

legislation, a long time in the making, but now we can move ahead

with it. Interesting, talking to people after what happened, we are

14 years into the process of devolution and lots of people said

it was the first time they latched on to the fact that the Welsh

Assembly had real powers in important areas. If it disappointing

that we come to this stage and people do not realise that? I think

people understand free prescriptions and bus passes, and they understand

that if they come from here, they voted two years ago on a new package

powers for the Assembly. But unmistakably the vote we had this

week was particularly important. It led to the news on several channels

and that is of course a first for this place. Including a very

important news programme, if I might say. Absolutely, yes.You are

clearly taking pride in that, and lots of people took pride that

process. Let's talk about the things that people are not taking pride in.

59,000 pupils in Wales at the moment under process of special measures.

This is after 14 years of stewardship by the Labour Party in

Wales. Does that bother you? course and we will do something

about it, as people will expect. We have a new review, looking at the

way education is delivered, and we have to look carefully at the number

of local education authorities in Wales. We have 22 and just about

everybody agrees that is too much. We have to make that far more

efficient. When does that happen? The commission that I have set up

will report by the autumn, and outline possibilities for the

future. In terms of a timetable, we are looking at legislation beyond

2016 because work will need to be done in the meantime. Consultation,

putting the structure in place, and beyond 2016 we will be able to

increment it. Is that quick enough? You cannot do these things more

quickly. It cannot be done overnight. It has to be prepared

for. We have to think about how many authorities, what the boundaries

might be, the effects on staff, all these things have to be prepared

over time. Then of course the legislation comes at the end.

concentrating on the wrong thing when we look at structure? Some

people have been saying to us that there is a problem with teaching in

Welsh schools and the standard of teaching is what feeds into the

results. It is not to do with overarching structures and local

authorities but what goes on in the classroom. Are you focusing on that

sufficiently? We are. There are very good examples of superb leadership

and teaching in schools in Wales. It is making sure that experience is

spread across Wales that is important. We are introducing a

Masters qualification in teaching, which will drive up the standard of

teaching once again. That will ensure we get a better level of

consistency. It is not all about structure. Structure is important,

but it is also important to help teachers become better teachers in

the future. What is the optimum number of authorities in your view?

Notched 22. It is difficult to put on an absolute figure, probably the

early teens. As many as that?That is about right. I am not wedded to

that idea. It may be too few. I have an open mind on those things but I

do know that 22 is very difficult and certainly too much. Some viewers

will think that we are starting at a late stage. Reforms are needed,

reforms because lots of people are behind. But it is 2013. Why are we

starting at this point? Why was this not started five or seven years ago?

We could not do it until 2011. We could not do it until we got the

powers to reorganise the structures of local authorities. We have only

had the powers since 2011 and now we are able to use them. And you are

having to think about these without the minister who was driving through

the reforms, Leighton Andrews. Was that a big loss? He was a very

talented minister and it is unfortunate what happened. No doubt

he will play an important part in the future. Hugh Lewis is a former

teacher and he will take forward those reforms. There is no change of

direction. If Mr Andrews had not resigned, would you have continued

with him in Government? Yes, that is clear. There will be a clear role

for him in the future. What did you say to him when he found out he was

campaigning against your policy and his own policy? It was very

difficult. If he was to take a decision about school closures, I

said this would come back. People said what about your constituency

and it was very difficult. Did you consider sacking him? That would

have happened in Westminster. resigned. But would you have sacked

him? The situation did not arise. It would have been very difficult. He

did resign and I accepted his resignation. These things happen

from time to time. He is a great campaigner, a great campaigner, and

he will be very valued in the future. Let's talk about his

campaigns because he has been campaigning against the health

policy and health reforms. Hospital reforms, where are you with that?

Lots of people are very concerned about their local services, about

whether they are losing their casualty departments. I know that

from my hometown. Are you focusing on the right areas here? Will people

suffer because of your reforms? There is no choice. We need a health

service that is safe and sustainable in the future. The reconfiguration

that is driven forward is driven by clinicians, not politicians, in the

teeth of opposition from doctors and nurses. People are not impressed by

it. The doctors are. It is clinically driven. All of the

departments tell me that the present structure will not work in the

future. If you are a politician, do you ignore what you are being told

by consultants? Do you listen to their professional views and then

structure casualty in a way that is safer for people and for

sustainable? You are listening to them but you have to answer to your

own voters and people that are accessing those services. Some of

these services will not exist in the future in the form they are in

today. Are you telling me you are not mindful of what voters are

thinking and you are just taking advice from clinicians and other

people in the profession? You are bound to be mindful of what voters

are thinking. I would have thought so. That does not mean that things

can continue as they are. This is a problem across the UK, not just

Wales. It is the easiest thing for a politician to do, to leave things as

they are when there is controversy. The service will collapse in the

future. We can't do it. It would not be fair on the people that depend on

those services. Why is it so difficult to draw people into the

medical profession in Wales? It is a problem elsewhere, you are right,

but it is certainly an acute problem in Wales and more of a problem in

some areas. People say poor training and bad working conditions. What

makes Wales unattractive? It is not as though we have an enormous number

of vacancies. The problem is trying to recruit people. In England, the

problem does not happen because there are so many fewer casualty

departments per head of population and we have so many. We cannot magic

up consultants. People tell us to train new doctors, which we are

trying to do, but they can travel anywhere in the world. We are trying

to recruit consultants into Wales because of the quality of life,

working conditions and training conditions. Doctors are saying to us

that reconfiguration is the best way of achieving those goals. Bringing

more people in as trainees, where they will see more opportunities and

get more experience, and creating more situations where people feel

they can flourish professionally in our casual to departments. They are

telling us that unless we move forward with certain changes, then

those conditions will not exist in the future that is bad for

everybody. Casualty departments are such a hot topic. What do you say to

people in areas where they are confronted with a big change in the

kind of service they have got used to over the years? We can move

casual to departments, have a more serious 115 miles away, there is no

threat to life and it is not dangerous. Those reassurances do not

wash with people. Even the changes that have been proposed, and there

have been no decisions yet of course, do not suggest closing

casual to departments. It is downgrading. We are not suggesting

they will not be 24-hour departments. You can still go to

them. There will be changes, but then we have always done that. If

you have severe burns, you go to Swansea, which has always been the

case, no matter where you live in South Wales. For serious head injury

commie go to Cardiff, which is where the expertise is. If I have a

serious head injury in Bridgend, I would be to Cardiff. We have always

had a reconfiguration of services where expertise... You try to make

them as local as possible, of course you do. But you need to have

expertise in one place to have a better outcome. If that means going

ten or 15 miles, which is the biggest distance possible to be

travelled, to give people a better chance of surviving, we need to look

at that. Why are people not buying that argument? Why are they so

sensitive about the downgrading of services? It is bright. I understand

that, our hospital, our area. -- it is pride. People do not understand

the medical profession, not wilfully, but you have to say to

people that you cannot just recruit doctors off the tree somewhere. We

have to make sure that services are sustainable so that we can recruit

enough doctors in one place to provide that service but also make

sure they are safer. Years ago the medical profession was different.

Now medics increasingly want to see enough cases coming through casual

to departments to get enough experience of treating those cases.

If the hospitals do not provide that experience, the doctors leave. The

trainees then don't come. It is difficult to explain it to people

but that is the reality, unfortunately. At what point do you

decide that a health board is too big, too unwieldy, too inefficient

to continue as it is? At what point does it make more sense to split

something up? There is no evidence of that at the moment. The

commission that I have set up has been asked to look at the governance

of the health boards but not that their boundaries. We went from 22

health boards to the number that we have now. We have to be mindful of

not reorganising the health service once again and the disruption that

that would cause. It is important to make sure these structures work.

these problems manageable? Are they explainable, justifiable? There

needs to be a change, clearly, about management, but it is not as though

every health board is going through the same difficulties as the biggest

one. The other boards are not as big. In terms of population, they

are. Having the right leadership is key. We see this with schools. The

difference fresh leadership can make in a school is phenomenal. The same

applies to the health service and anywhere in the public sector.

view expressed by many experts about the biggest health board is to do

with its size and its manageability, and you think the shape of it is

fine? Is there an optimum size? Probably not. In terms of being able

to provide the services it needs to provide, at the moment I would argue

that the boundaries are right. Looking at the performance that are

going to be on the table. Your colleague Owen Smith for example,

campaigning against elements of that policy. How do you manage that

process? It is quite clear that as a political party Welsh Labour, it is

natural. There is no one hospital being forwarded in terms of

another. The name of the party should not be attached to campaigns

like that. Why are people out on the streets? I have spoken to people who

think that the hospitals are going to close. Quite often people will

fear the worst, I understand that. I have taken the time to speak to

people to say, this is the situation. So Owen Smith has

misunderstood the situation? People can make representations on behalf

of hospitals in their own area, I have no difficulty with that.

do not want to see them out on the street? It is important that people

do not get the idea that Welsh Labour Party has a particular view

in terms of hospitals. And there is no threat to the accident and

emergency departments. Clearly the big umbrella is man -- is money.

Having been in this post since the last election, what is your death

now on the balance, if you like. Do you have the levers that you need,

with all the debate about needing powers to borrow, do you have the

economic levers that you need? are never going to have all the

economic levers. Some will stay with the UK government, and many are

outside of the control of the UK government. When we seek new powers

we do it for a reason. For example arriving. We should be able to

borrow to a limit. In the same way as Scotland and Northern Ireland.

That is important because there will be some projects, transport for

example, that will need to be taken through in Wales in the next few

years. And the money can only come through borrowing. The argument put

forward by the Treasury is that you need a source of revenue. Northern

Ireland does not have that. So our argument has been stamp duty, but it

very important. And we would argue passenger duty as well. That would

give us around 200 million of an income stream. I just go into as

quickly, wide did you purchase Cardiff airport? -- why. The airport

would have closed, it was being run down. And hundreds of jobs would

have gone with it. It is important for the country to have an airport.

Some people geographically, do not use Cardiff airport. But when I go

abroad I'm often asked, does Wales have an international airport? And

if it did not then that would reflect badly. If you have an

international airport you are taken seriously. But nobody uses it.I

disagree. The percentage of passengers has increased by 9%. We

understand that it is still a long way short of the store. Money has

been putting to refurbish the arrivals area and that has gone down

well. We are looking at the road system outside the terminal which

frankly looks unwelcoming. There is an issue about the state of the

terminal building itself. Airlines are looking at the airport as an

investment. If you are an airline and the building looks as if it is

in a bit of a state you are going to think, passengers are not going to

come here. If you are a passenger and have to log -- to walk along way

from the car park, these things have two be addressed. Is that enough to

bring some of those big airlines back from Bristol to Cardiff with

Mike because without that do accept that it is not going to look like a

flourishing economic prospect? Discussions at taking place at the

moment. Landing charges are important. There was a very rigid

structure in place before and that is now being changed. The idea is

not to buy an airport and kissed the money goodbye. We will subsidise it,

no question. But we are looking for commercial operators to coming into

partnership with us. Perhaps to bike path of the airport so that the

money comes back that quickly. And there is interest out there, large

operators who do have that interest. I would have been worried if they

had been no interest from the commercial sector, but it is. It is

just a question of taking it through a very difficult period. To go back

to where we wear for that exchange, and in the same context, if you have

the power to borrow, what more then can you do? What would your ambition

be, five years down the line? What kind of things would you be looking

to do with that extra money? Mainly infrastructure. The other aspect is

the Severn Bridge. If you can borrow, you can invest not just in

transport infrastructure but digital infrastructure as well, to create

the conditions for economic growth. We are not seeking some enormous

fiscal power, but it could be used in a targeted way. Looking at

motorways, for example, the railways, all those games. Along

with broadband. Is that the key element that Wales economically is

dragging behind the rest of the UK? It has not trapped behind, we are

doing better than other areas such as the North East of England. The

employment rate in Wales is lower than London for example. But we do

want to do better. For me the big challenge is not just transport

infrastructure but broadband. If you put in place a fastball band

structure then people can set up the business anywhere they want. They do

not have to move out of Wales. It is the equivalent of what the railway

lines used to be in the 19th century. The economic benefits would

the enormous. In the next few weeks, when you talk about delivery in the

year ahead, in the position of First Minister who does not have a

majority in the assembly, how much of a handicap is that? And does that

podcast doubt over any ambitions that you express? Well we have

managed so far. But as I said in this very building the day after the

election, we want to work with the other parties. We have tried to do

that to get legislation through. We have worked with other parties on

the budget. We are aware that we do not have an overall majority. But it

is not like Westminster. I would argue there is far more working

between parties. Were used to the fact that for 14 years there has not

been a party with an overall majority. Are you unsettled or

anxious about the fact that the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru

have decided to put on a united front to discuss budget options with

you? I am not surprised. In some ways I am surprised it has taken

them that long. They have decided their strongest position is to work

together but that is a matter for them. What is important is that we

have a budget for the end of the year that reflects the priorities of

the government, yes, but of some other parties as well. That is the

way budget negotiations are conducted here. Give me one thing is

for viewers to latch onto and come back in one year to say, Carwyn

Jones said he would do this. Something that would be symbolic of

his determination? It would be investment in the economy.

Investment into Wales by companies overseas. That has been driven by

the fact that we have gone out there and sold Wales in a way that has not

been done in a few years. We work of course with the UK government to

promote Wales and that is important. It is to seek more money and more

jobs coming into Wales. That is what I ask people to judge me on. We will

come back and measure that. Thank you for talking to us. Just some of

the challenges facing the First Minister and the Welsh government in

the year to come. We will be back in the autumn to examine any progress

because this is the last edition of the programme for this series. Over