30/06/2013 The Wales Report

crisis in confidence in Wales' largest health board after a damning

report identifies substantial failings. A change in the law aimed

at giving whistleblowers increased protection but could more be done

for welsh workers who expose wrongdoing? And calls for tougher

laws when it comes to protecting the environment in Wales. Stay with us

for the Wales Report. Good evening and welcome to the Wales Report. And

it's been quite a week in Welsh politics. There have been

resignations, reshuffles, new partnerships AND a by-election date

announced. More on all of that later in the programme. But first, let's

turn our attention to the health service in Wales, and to a damning

report into Wales' largest health board. The chair and chief executive

of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health board have both stepped down

following a shocking report - that found significant management

failings - which it said could have meeting, not a public meeting, but

by any standards it was an extraordinary affair. More than 100

people packed into a highly charged atmosphere, but it was not long

before individuals were expressing their disquiet. There were pleas for

the protesters to stay silent or leave the meeting. One group 's

patience snapped when they were told that Flint hospital was to close.

Angry and frustrated, they spilled out into the corridors, still

protesting and questioning the validity of the boards consultation

exercise. Arguably, the writing was on the wall for the health board

when, earlier this year, they met to finalise their controversial plans

for reorganisation, based in part on a consultation exercise of their own

making. Nobody believed them that they had been listening. Many people

thought the plans were preordained and the consultation exercise was

just a convenient smokescreen. When I spoke to the then chief executive

of the health board, she and her staff seemed taken aback by my

questions about the cost of that consultation exercise. How much did

your consultation exercise cost? I stop you there? Where working it

through right now. I can't answer that. That's an unfair question. It

is very specific. Gosh, OK! I thought, having gone through a

consultation exercise, you might have some idea of the cost of it. We

spent probably around �30,000, but I can't guarantee that it will be

more. Let's try another one, then. The outgoing chief executive in an

interview with me earlier this year. Until now, until the

appearance of this report, many health professionals and patients

have felt their voices have gone unheard. Not any more, and for the

first time, those at the sharp end can France -- Khan expressed their

frustration is that at last, something is being done. This doctor

is a consultant gynaecologist. He's also the chair of the BMA's Welsh

council and gave me his reaction to highly critical report on his

employers's failures. What is your overall reaction to what has been

widely recognised as a highly critical report? We're not surprised

at will by this. It's an issue we have been trying to raise with

senior managers for some time. does it reflect and manifest itself

here, in hospitals like this? have staff, trying their very best,

under very difficult circumstances, to provide high-quality care, and

not being given the facilities to practice to be highest standards

they are used to. The consequence is we start chasing targets instead of

treating patients. The difficulty we have had is we still have patients

coming through our front door needing treatment. We believe the

fundamental problem here is we are not starting with the patient and

what is needed to treat the patient. We appear to be starting with the

organisation of the health service and trying to fit patients to that

organisation. It's a very difficult environment to be working in at the

moment. It's very frustrating. You've only got to look at what has

gone on with neonatal care and the transfer of neonatal intensive care

to England, and you create a situation in which you are trying to

get clinician engagement. The clinicians say it should stay in

North Wales. You have public engagement. The public says it

should stay in North Wales. And the health board wants to put it

somewhere else. You'll have two ask the health board about that, but

fortunately, the first Minister is also asking that question and we are

very pleased to see the Royal College of paediatrics doing their

review at the moment. This report makes a number of recommendations.

Do you think it is also an opportunity for the health board in

this area to grasp the nettle and start again, as it were, and deliver

the sort of things that you would wish to see? There are huge

opportunities to replan health care in North Wales. We have an interim

medical director that we have every confidence in, we have a new

director of nursing. All the things are there to engage with the

clinical staff in a more proactive way. But that means empowering

clinical staff on the front-line in getting rid of some of the big

bureaucracy that has paralysed the health board in the past.

message, then, is clear enough. The NHS brand has been badly damaged by

this report, but it is also seen a chance to improve the service in

North Wales, is service in which doctors will be listened to and the

needs of patients put first. It may go some way to improving and

repairing some of the damage. David Williams there. Legal changes have

come into force this week that are aimed at providing greater

protection to whistleblowers. Concerns have been raised about

whether the law gives enough support to those who expose wrongdoing in

the workplace, particularly in the NHS. Brian Meechan reports.

Whistleblowers can provide invaluable information that exposes

dangerous practices and some cases can save lives. Employers say they

need to be able to rely on the confidentiality of their staff and

safeguard their reputation. The law can provide a balance between the

two. This woman was buoyed at the day centre run by Carmarthenshire

Council. In 2005 she blew the whistle on the physical and verbal

abuse of people with learning difficulties attending the centre.

I've followed the whistleblowing policy. I went through seven

reporting of news report I went to the ombudsman outside. Nobody helped

me. Staff would come in and say they had aimed to not to speak to me and

not to come into my office to talk to me. It was all psychological

abuse where you would feel they were trying to wear you down and silence

you from telling the truth. It was sort of years that I was being

targeted. She eventually complained to the public service ombudsman and

the route board concluded there were catastrophic failures in the

handling of the case. Although she was in the right she paid a heavy

price. I went off sick with work-related stress, my blood

pressure was sky-high. I doctor said was no way I go back. I decided to

resign, life was not worth living. I decided my health was more important

and I designed. Employment law specialist see that whistleblowing

is not straight forward. It can be a very long drawn-out process and

foreign or even has not got a huge amount of the Rancho means that the

fingertips, that can be very costly. The ultimate and Angela Ward that

the end of it, may not even meet a cover of the cost of went through

the process. With that going on from a financial live and perhaps a

person has lost her job as a result of going the whistle, that can put

an awful lot of stress on an individual and the family in time.

Coupled with that there are allegations that may have been

difficult and caused upset in the organisation that the employee has

left. All of that will clock into a very big fish report. The UK

government is responsible for whistleblowers because employment

law is not devolved. There have been boosts to detection which means

whistleblowers will no longer have you prove they were at Dean in good

faith when they complained. It also means they will have two sure there

are cases in the public interest. suspect the changes on track as well

not fundamentally change the way they will courts approach these

cases now. I think there is, as with many of these things, policy drive

because of some of what has happened over the past year or so, to ensure

this is brought into the spotlight and that Rangers have been made on

the back of those policy drives. What I do think it's a shame is that

we now are potentially encouraging whistleblowers who may not have

those good motivations that people expect to see in these sorts of

cases. Of whistleblowers charity is asking whether the law should go

further, whether companies should he forced to have protection policies.

Even whether cash incentives should be offered to whistleblowers as

happens in the United States. There is no where near where concern over

the protection of whistleblowers is more acute than in the health

service, where transparency can be a matter of life or death. A report

found years of abuse at Stafford Hospital and covering up of

mistakes. A Royal College of nursing survey after that report found

nurses in Wales were still worried about whistleblowing. 26% of those

asked had been discouraged about raising concerns. 60% were not

confident about being protected by the lawyer if he became

whistleblowers. -- protected by the employer. The results were quite

alarming. It showed that in many instances, over 60% of members in

Wales felt that the week have severe repercussions if they were to

whistleblowers about issues of concern. When we ask questions about

what were those issues of concern, they would talk about immensely low

staffing levels and also if they saw something untoward happening within

an environment that they felt it was not necessarily the culture within

the organisation to be able to share that information. Settlements

between an employer and former employee of an include gagging

orders which prevent further discussion of the case. There is

concern that this leads to re-silencing of the whistleblower

and the issues they have raised. Health boards have used these 35

times. The UK government has warned that gagging orders should not be

used to prevent former employees exposing wrongdoing in the public

sector in England. This woman took on her employer and one but at a

huge cost to herself. -- took on her employer and won. I do not regret it

at all, I would not change anything, I think we are all on this if to

help each other and that the end of the day I helped that person who

could not speak up for herself so I have got no regrets. Some people can

do it easier than others that it is a very lonely path to take. I have

no regrets. The real test of these legal changes will be whether the

help create the kind of environment where this woman and people like her

can expose wrongdoing without having to pay such a heavy price. I am

joined by Ian Hughes from the Welsh audit office. Part of your title is

the whistleblowing manager, what does that mean? I look at internal

arrangements if there are staff concerns. I can receive disclosures

from people who work for the public sector in Wales. There might be

people particularly in the public sector who are thinking right now

they have seen something going on in the work base and they are

concerned. They really have to bring this to public attention, they are

going to blow the whistle and top to you, what protection can you give

them? The simple answer to protection is none, we do not

actually protect anybody. This is where they'd is a lot of confusion

and potentially a weakness. The employment position of the personal

and public issue disclosure act of the legislation to protect people

means that should something and auction it happen to them by blowing

the whistle when they get sacked, the are denied training

opportunities, in they can bring a claim for detriment to the tribunal.

They play a part in the tribunal proceedings. Do you regret that?We

have no control authority over it, that is a legislation as it stands.

That puts me right off, I might see something I am concerned about but I

am really going to think you fully know, am I not? This should not be a

factor. As an employee you want to know that if you have concerned you

can act on them and eel with them. The fact it is detection at tribunal

stage should be the last thing you have to think about, you want to put

right whatever your concerns are. Other important as it that people do

come forward in the public interest? It is very important. There is no

way to go after that. The last place an employer can go is to blow the

whistle. Everything has failed by then. What sort of thing are you

looking for and with the interested in? We can receive allegations but

we are not in investigating body that would investigate on behalf of

people. The audit organisations so we would take on-board information

received but they have no right to deceive an investigation from us. We

will investigate if we think it is appropriate and with an Arab powers

but we are not obliged. government at Westminster has been

thinking of making much about protection for people but the

reality on the ground seems to be something else. If people want to

come forward and blow the whistle, see there is something seriously

wrong in my public environment and the public as to bite this, they

will be putting their jobs on the line. There should be proper

procedures in place to make sure people can come forward without

feeling recrimination. That is good practice. It should not happen.

Organisations should be making that clear. There should be proper

policies that are easy to understand. It should work well. We

hear mainly about the cases where it does not work well. Can people come

forward to you in confidence? will respect the full's

confidentiality where we can but we cannot guarantee it, if we go in and

ask questions about a particular alien sometimes the organisation can

work out who has come to us. If matters all within our audit we met

we will look into them and we will, depending on what they find,

exercise our structure tree powers. Our statutory powers mean we can

report in the public interest but we cannot discipline or prosecute. That

is the furthest we can never take it. In most circumstances it is a

very powerful mechanism. So what we are seeing is that to see effective

whistleblowing and give people the protection they need, especially

where these are genuine issues of public concern, there is still some

way to go even after this legislation to give them the

protection and support they should have. We have just had the

whistleblowing commission set-up. It has worked in some places, but there

is a long way to go until it is Now, it's been quite a week here in

the home of Welsh democracy. began with the shock resignation of

a Cabinet heavyweight, the Education Minister, Leighton Andrews,

triggering an emergency reshuffle. The Rhondda AM has recently

struggled to balance his government and constituency commitments, first

by opposing the Labour-led decision to reorganise health services, and

then for backing a campaign to save a school in his constituency which

faces closure as a result of his own policy. And when Carwyn Jones failed

to come to his aid here in the Chamber, the writing was clearly on

the wall. So was it a simple "confusion" of roles? And what lies

ahead for the man who has taken over that role, the new Education

Minister, Huw Lewis? I've been speaking to former Minister Rhodri

Morgan. It was a week in Welsh politics, but

how damage to Labour? I don't think it's necessarily damaging.

there's obviously a dispute at the heart of it, but I don't think it

would lead to the kind of factions you have seen in the Australian

Labour Party. Had you been a first Minister, would you have taken the

same action? Without actually being there and knowing what the

conversation was about the previous incident, but the hospital and the

website, I don't know. Clearly, the minister is responsible for the

policy on places, it is the local authority which then has the

responsibility to implement or interpret those guidelines and

policy. If you think the local authority has made a mistake, you're

entitled to write a letter pointing that out. Are you entitled to have a

placard, though, which makes it look as though you are undermining the

whole policy? That is where I thought red card. That would be my

interpretation. He is undoubtedly one of the big beasts of Labour

politics in Wales. Can they afford to lose him at such a crucial moment

in education? That's an egg that -- that's an academic question. There's

no he will start challenging the first Minister for the leadership.

He will look after his constituency and, as has happened on many

occasions before, he will have a very good chance of coming back into

the Cabinet. And even his political opponents would have to acknowledge

he was a man of substance, a man of great intelligence, and a man of

personality who was driving through changes, whether popular or not. And

taking on Michael Gove. Are there is a sufficient number of individuals

like that in Welsh politics today? He's found Hugh Lewis, but is that

enough strength in depth of the squad? There's never enough strength

in depth when you only have 60 people overall in the Assembly and

30 on the Labour side, and nine Cabinet positions to fill. You will

always struggle because of the small numbers. Juggling the small numbers

is a huge issue because the Assembly is so small. Big issues at the

moment. Lack of confidence, not only in education, but in the NHS. It's

not lack of confidence. It's a very difficult issue. We got to discuss

this in a grown-up way because public service reform in an era of

spending cuts, something will happen in their constituency. People will

tell ministers about that. undermines effective government,

though, if everyone is watching what is going on in their backyard, it

really suggests a kind of parochial attitude. People need to rise to the

challenge of taking on these major issues facing us as a nation in

dealing with them effectively. They are getting ever bigger because

spending cuts will continue. But I think you can find a way of allowing

ministers to represent their constituents, because that is their

first duty. Doing that while implementing public service reform

to save money and improve public services at the same time. And you

need a top minister to deal with that. He will be given his

opportunity to prove himself. We have to see, like all other

ministers, you will learn on the job. I have been impressed with his

first 48 hours on the job, but really, only time will tell. So

where does the world 's government go from here? It will recover from

the tremors of this week, and it's up to the new ministers, taking on

their portfolios now, to work up as quickly as possible so they can

stick -- so they can step up to the big shoes and get on with the job.

It's up to, assuming Labour does well, to think seriously about where

to accommodate Leighton. Are we doing enough to protect the

great outdoors? Public Bodies in Wales COULD have to

consider the impact their decisions have on the environment under plans

by the Welsh Government. The proposed Sustainable Development

Bill would make the public sector in Wales change the way it works in

order to improve the effects its policies have on the environment and

We only have one planet. Some of the resources on that planet are

limited. We have got a growing population as well, so growing

demand for those resources. Lots more competition, and if were not

careful, we will find ourselves outcompeted and some of the things

we depend on now. The consequences of global competition are being felt

on our high streets. You can see that in rising prices, when we have

a crisis of overproduction of wheat, and in some countries, there were

riots over the price of bread. We have to put sustainable development

at the heart of what we do in order to be able to cope with the kind of

shocks the global system will throw at us. I guess, in Wales, we have

had ten years of government taking small steps towards sustainable

development. There's some really good examples of things, like here,

we have got new homes built to much higher energy efficiency standards,

so bills are lower the people, they can live in a nice house that

doesn't cost them as much, and that is helping to tackle climate change.

The trouble is there are lots of small examples. There isn't the

scale of change necessary to meet the demands of the future, so what

we really need is a sustainable development bill that will enable

this to become the norm. The Welsh Government needs to strengthen its

proposals for the bill. It must define what it means by sustainable

development in the bill so that everybody is clear, and we don't

saddle future generations with the consequences of our unsustainable

choices. That's it for this week's programme.

We'll be back next week where we'll be talking to the First Minister. If

you have any questions for Carwyn Jones or comments on the issues