11/11/2012 The Wales Report

She had on Remembrance weekend, The Wales Report is in London. We will

be talking to one soldier who bears the heavy burden of liaising with

the families of those on the frontline her. And after a new

storm of controversy about the abuse allegations in North Wales,

we will be asking what more can be done to uncover the truth. Stay

Welcome to London for this week's edition of The Wales Report. It is

Remembrance Sunday. Dozens of people have gathered at the

Cenotaph on Whitehall for services drought Wales and the UK to

remember those lost in two world wars and other conflicts. We will

talk to one soldier with a particular duty when it comes to

liaising with forces' families. But the week's headlines have been

dominated by a new wave of controversy about abuse in care

homes in North Wales in the 1970s and 1980s. Two new inquiries have

been set up amid concerns that the full truth has yet to emerge. David

Williams, who reported on the scandal in the 1980s, has been

revisiting the events. They after day, month after month,

dozens of young people came here to give evidence of what the Home

Secretary last week called hate for, disgusting, a bore and crimes. If

some of those young people were listening to that statement, they

might be forgiven for thinking, but we told you so. Went you listening?

I knew many of those young people. I brought some of them here. It is

just an office block now, but at the time, it was the setting for

one of the biggest inquiries into child abuse. I watched as some of

the people who gave evidence here crumpled and broke down in the

witness box as they attempted to tell their awful stories of

physical and sexual abuse at the hands of those who was supposed to

be caring for them. Now, those same witnesses here that there are to be

more inquiries, an inquiry into the inquiry led by Sir Ronald

Waterhouse in 1996, and which sat here for 203 days and produced, at

a cost of �14 million, the lost in care report, a report which some

now say got a bit lost itself and did not go far enough. There is

also to be another inquiry about an inquiry, this time a police inquiry

about the original police inquiry into child abuse in North Wales.

But there are those, myself included, who wonder whether the

police inquiries went far enough and whether they pursued every line

of inquiry open to them. That would certainly be the view of bears

frost, who I first met in 1997. He had been the deputy chief executive

of the privately owned Brunel in community homes in North Wales. The

man who ran the homes, John Allen, was jailed in 1995 for six years

for abusing residents. Ten years before his boss was convicted of

those offences, there's frost had gone to the Chester police with

allegations about six residents had been sexually abused by John Allen.

He did not go to the Wrexham Police in whose area the homes were

operating. But he believed that Chester police would pass on his

concerns to their colleagues in North Wales. Naively, I thought

that the wheels were in motion and a long way, something would be done,

even if they didn't contact me. They would interview John Allen.

These were serious allegations of sexual abuse not by one, but by six

residents. Indeed. The thing that surprised me when I began to

realise nothing was being done was that this was not just a grassroots

worker talking to two policemen, it was the joint deputy chief

executive. I would have expected them, even if it was not on their

patch, to at least realise it must be serious if someone of that

position had taken the trouble to speak to them. 15 years ago, bears

frost made those same points in an interview with me. We wanted to

show that interview in a television programme, because we considered

that what he had to say was important evidence for the tribunal.

But the tribunal told us that they were concerned that there should be

no discussion of events while they were sitting. Indeed, they

threatened us with contempt proceedings if we showed that

interview. In the circumstances, we had no choice. We did not show the

interview. The tribunal knew that bears frost had information

relevant to its inquiry. But it did not call him as a witness. The

Waterhouse report concluded that there was no significant a mission

by North Wales Police in investigating the complaints of

abuse to children in care. It is now difficult to convey adequately

the emotional turmoil that young people who came here went through

as they tried to relive their past and to do so publicly. For some,

the inquiry came too late. I once carried the coffin of a young man

who had told me and others his story, but in the end, believed

that nobody believed him. He hanged himself. Some simply cannot let the

matter go. People like Steven Messham, a victim of abuse at 0

wears care homes, who has now apologised for making inaccurate

claims to a BBC Newsnight programme about a former leading Tory

politician. The BBC has issued an unreserved apology for the

Newsnight report, which led to former Conservative Party treasurer

Lord McAlpine of -- Lord McAlpine being wrongly implicated in online

forums in relation to the sexual abuse of boys in care homes in

North Wales. The extraordinary events of the last week caused

something of a media feeding frenzy, as journalists scrambled to try and

keep up with an ever-changing story. Then, late last night, came the

dramatic climax to the week, when George Entwistle, the director

general of the BBC, flanked by the corporation's chairman, Lord Patten,

emerged from BBC headquarters. have decided that the honourable

thing to do is to step down from the post of director general.

Alison Taylor, the whistle blower widely regarded as the person who

set in motion the investigations into child abuse in North Wales,

has been taken aback by the sudden resurgence of interest in a subject

in which she is well First. She first told me her story in a

television documentary I did more than 20 years ago. It centred on

the physical abuse carried out in a care home in Bangor, which once

stood here work but was later bulldozed to the ground to make way

for a housing complex. The home has gone, but the memory of the pain

and suffering endured by children here has not been forgotten. What

do you feel now, coming back 23 years after we did that first

programme? It is houses now and the building has gone, but is the

memory still with you? Yes, because you can erase buildings, but you

can't erase memories. It is not just me, but my whole family,

because my children's lives were very much taken up with what was

going on, especially after I contacted the police and council

about the abuse allegations. Events here are still vivid in the mind of

Alison Taylor, who once worked as the deputy head of a care home

which did everything except provide care. If it was not just abuse, it

was neglect and such mean us that you would not credit. Like children

having to line-up to have a little squirt of toothpaste on their

toothbrush every night. I felt as a woman that the girls had to ask for

cemetery pounds each time they needed a new one. -- they had to

ask for sanitary pads. That is humiliation. In the last week,

Alison Taylor has been pursued relentlessly by journalists trying

desperately to keep up with the story. All very different to the

time when she first tried to tell her story of abuse in care homes in

a Quinn up. The response was, shoot the messenger. Buried the messenger

very deep in concrete at. Well, you have done a good job of surviving

the concrete, but it took a long time. And that period included a

police inquiry. Which came to nothing initially. No, because we

know from the reports which were quoted in the tribunal report that

the police regarded the youngsters who were making the allegations

with the utmost prejudice. It was hoped that a chapter of terrible

stories of abuse at care homes like Bryn Estyn, near Wrexham, had come

to an end. The fear now is that the events of the last 48 hours could

make the continuing search for the truth of child abuse in North Wales

even more difficult and could even prevent victims of abuse who have

not yet told their story from coming forward to give evidence to

any new inquiry. For me, coming back here all these years after the

last big inquiry into child abuse in North Wales, I am struck by a

feeling of sadness and certainly concerned that it is not over yet.

There could be fresh allegations and matters to be put right. And if

there are, this time we had better all be prepared to listen. We

mustn't let down these victims again.

That was David Williams. With me is the Secretary of State for Wales.

There is a real sense of a firestorm this weekend, certainly

angle from the BBC, which I will come to. Are we in danger of losing

sight of the victims here, those who have suffered terrible abuse?

We should remember that that is what all this is about. There have

been concerns in North Wales for many years about whether the

Waterhouse inquiry was sufficiently in depth. But the processes we have

put in place over the last we should address concerns about that.

We have appointed Keith Bristow, the head of the National crime

agency, to work with North Wales Police in reviewing not only

historical complaints, but also fresh complaints that are emerging

now. The other part of the process is about reappointed a High Court

judge to conduct a review of the process of the Waterhouse inquiry

itself. This will take some time. But I would hope that those two

processes will give some assurance to the public of North Wales that

we are continuing to take these issues very seriously. You do

wonder if there are people out there who are victims who have not

spoken out yet. They may see this media storm happening. What would

be the incentive for them to come forward and have their say, because

it seems a dangerous area to be in? This is the problem when dealing

with issues of child abuse, particularly historical child abuse,

because these people have moved on with their lives, and to renew the

pain they felt all those years ago is quite an undertaking. We would

like them to come forward nonetheless. We can assure the

individuals who may want to report those incidents that they will be

treated very sympathetically by a very experienced investigators. By

all means, consider whether you want to come forward, but if you do,

come forward in the knowledge that you will be treated with great

concern. There is a view, of course, that we will have inquiries into

all inquiries. But you are saying it is much wider? It is a wide

remit. You have a very experienced criminal investigator or in the

form of Keith Bristow, who has been given a remit not just to look at

old allegations, but any new allegations that come forward. Each

of those is an allegation of criminal behaviour. It is possible

that it should be dealt with by the police. It is being overseen by the

National crime agency to give people extra comfort. We are taking

it very seriously, but it is by no means just a historical review of

what happened 20 years ago. know the area very well. Was it

your feeling at the time that the Waterhouse inquiry was too narrow?

I did not have that feeling them, but of course, this is one of the

issues that the Chief of justice has been asked to do that. She will

make up her mind. Do you have a view on it? I am not in a position

to express a view of, because the Chief of justice will be reporting

to me. It would be wrong for me to express a personal view. But she

will be looking at this in detail, and she will look at the workings

of the inquiry. That is a major undertaking, because it was a very

long inquiry that lasted three years before it reported. He so she

certainly has a job to do, but I am sure she will do it well. If you go

back to the early '90s, there was a report compiled at that time which

was not published for lots of reasons. Apparently, because of

some legal concerns. Do you think parts of that report should be made

available now? That is a report I have not seen. I have no idea what

was in it. I understand most of the contents of the report, most of the

copies were shredded. It was prepared for the North Wales

council itself. There may be a copy in existence under the control of

Flintshire County Council. They will have to take legal advice as

to whether it would be in their interest to publish it. But the big

problem was that the report was conducted under conditions other

than conditions of privilege. The concern was a bit if it were

published, it might be regarded as One of the consequences is the

resignation of the BBC's Director- General, in what is clearly a

crisis for the corporation. Do you think he made the right decision?

think he had no alternative, frankly. What we have in the BBC is

easily the biggest news organisations in the country. It is

in the world. It is essential that the public should have confidence

in the BBC and that it is an organisation that can be relied on.

I think the Newsnight report was a very shoddy piece of journalism. I

am speaking as a lawyer and I know that I would check my facts about

simple things such as identity. I think that the good news of

Newsnight was badly damaged by that report. I think that George

Entwistle had no option but to do what he did. Really, it does seem

to me that there may be other organisation issues within the BBC

that need to be addressed urgently. Such as? Well, it is quite clear

that there must have been or there should have been a process of

reporting to the Director-General if there were a programme, such as

the Newsnight, that was apparently, at one stage, going to name a

senior Conservative politician. Clearly there was no such

arrangement in place. I think that there must be organisational issues

below Director-General level that need to be addressed. It is fair to

say because of the Savile inquiries, the BBC management structure has

been, let's just say heavily affected by that. Well, I have no

doubt that is the case. If you have got a news item of the proportions,

of the magnitude of the Newsnight report, there should have been

arrangements in place to draw this issue to the attention of the

Director-General. I am astonished they were not in place and the

shoddyness of the journalism makes it all the more the necessary for

that to be in place. How soon does the BBC node to appoint a new

Director-General? It needs to review structures completely. What

we need is somebody at the helm of this organisation, which is an

important British institution after all, who is capable of inspiring

the confidence, not marely of the staff of the BBC, but also -- not

merely of the staff of the BBC, but also the audience of the BBC, who I

have no doubt feel badly let down by this episode. It has been a week

of contrasting news headlines, including vivid ones in Washington

for the presidential election. One common theme - the use of social

media, which is transforming the way we gather news and transforming

In Westminster and here in the Assembly the week has been

dominated by allegations of child abuse. If there is something which

has changed since the Waterhouse inquiry, that is social media.

Names have been Tweeted and ancient liable laws are having trouble

catching up. Politicians who use Twitter are finding some dark and

disturbing elements to confront N another part of this complex world,

there was more controversy here when Leanne Wood suggested victims

of abuse could get in touch with her via social media. The First

Minister was not a fan of that idea. I do not think it is appropriate

that people should be encouraged to get in touch with politicians. I

think it is important that they should be asked to get in touch

with authorities who can do things for them and properly investigate

their complaints. I would urge them to do that. She was Sangin about

that attack saying the victims would be suspicious of talking to

the police, why not give them another opportunity to raise their

voice. Either way, social media is clearly changing the rules. You

have been getting in touch with us over the past week on different

issues. The most persistent concern is around the health service in

Wales. A retired consultant has been in touch on what he says are

declining standards in accident and emergency care. I would rather die

at home than die at the hospital. That is the way I look at it. I

have come to that state because I have lost a lot of confidence. Are

a lot of very good doctors in the health service, a lot of very good

nurses, they are doing their work. Somehow this is all controlled by...

It has become a political hot potato. Labour blame the

Conservatives - it should be completely out of the political

area. And, in the world of Twitter, it

was a week of records as I am sure Huw will testify the US elections

were a phenomenon. Barack Obama announced his success on Twitter.

This message from the President looks like the most reTweeted in

history. Within a few hours 500,000 people had re-sent it. Welsh

politicians are not in the same league, any more than Welsh

journalists there. Top of the league of Tweeters David

Jones, MP. And this week's guest, well he is a Tweet-refusenic. If

you cannot join them... Tell us what we should look at. Tell us

what concerns you. You can find us via e-mail.

Next week we'll have more reaction. Earlier today thousands of veterans

marched along Whitehall after a service of remembrance led by the

Queen. There were political leaders there including the leader of Plaid

Cymru. He has been leading a campaign to improve the lot of

military veterans. We will hear from him shortly. We have spoke on

the an officer in the Welsh Guards about his job of liaising the

families of those on the front line. For Captain Brian Moore that can

involve delivering the worst No matter how you prepare yourself

it is always a shock because you are delivering some brutal and

unsavoury news to a family and you are pretty much destroying them for

a period of time and you are there then to help them put it all back

together. When an incident occurs in an operational theatre, they

have a procedure called "opt- minimise." All external

communication is closed down. 108ers will respect that --

soldiers will respect that close down of communication. They have

lost a comrade, a friend. They could have lost a relative. They

will respect that. Social media does play a part, obviously. When

the information comes back, you cannot control families, members of

the public who get the information from the family and they may post

it. We've had occasions where non- family members have posted the

information, which has caused some distress to the family. The

soldiers in service they respect the opt minimise procedures.

Walking up the path, you know you're going to knock on the door.

You know that somebody's life is going to change from that day on.

You've got to be professional. You've got to be mature and you've

got to be in the right mind-set to do it. That is all we can do as

soldiers, you know. We are trained to do stuff like this.

Some people want to know the very fine intimate detail. Some people

just want to know the overall incident they have been involved in.

People will deny this happened to them. People will get angry.

People will just accept what has happened. Because in this little

bubble at this particular time they've never been in before. They

are not angry that their sons or daughters have been injured in the

theatre of operations, they understand they volunteered A

couple of casesvy been involved in the families have said, sadly it

happened, they were doing what they were doing, it is what they

volunteered for and what they I have a serving son in law and if

it happened to me, I don't know how I would react. The people I dealt

with, I can never understand their pain or grief, because it's not me.

As we approach remembrance time, we have to remember the first and

Second World War, where whole communities were devastated.

Communities in Wales are small. That may be the only one in that

community with somebody in the military. If they lose somebody

they may feel isolated. They will get sympathy, emfathi from all

their friends and -- empathy from all their friends and family. Years

ago there was a whos who of people who had lost one. Now it can be

more difficult for families and individuals. It is really quite

tragic. Well, that was the story of Captain

On Remembrance Sunday, when you have a prominent role and people

are focusing on the need of the armed services are we losing sites

of the veterans? I think we are. It is so haphazard when people who are

discharge Road looked after. It depends to a large extent which

regiment, whether your senior officers are interested in what

happens to you when you are discharged. To put it in a nutshell,

I would say, when we spend months training up these people for combat,

we need to spend a similar time decompressing them back for civvy

street. It is difficult for some people who have been in the Army

for a fair while even to understand or to realise they need to pay

bills regularly. They have got to get somewhere to live. They may

deal with marital breakdown, substance misuse and so on. There

are many problems which confront people in the Armed Forces.

don't think that is the principal job of the British Legion who

provides a lot of these services. What different kind of provision

are you talking about? They do a lot of excellent work, like the

Poppy today. One of the problems we have, actually, was there are

between 3,000-4,000 military charities. I think we should be

looking at perhaps some of them getting together, some of them

being able to provide the expertise in a given area. Others

concentrating on something else,er than have a haphazard competition.

I say primarily it is the role for Government. That is the crucial

point? That is the crucial point F the third sector want to come in

and assist as well, well. The primary responsibility has to be

with Government. At the end of the day, they were out serving the

state, therefore the state needs to provide for them. What has prompted

your interested in this? Is it seeing examples which have bothered

you? Until a couple of years ago I used to pratise at the bar, in my

spare time and in one five-day period I saw half a dozen extremely

serious cases for which there was no reason or certainly no motive.

It worried me. When I looked at them, all six of them were involved,

did involve ex-service people from Iraq one and two and Afghanistan.

So, I got thinking then, how many of these unfortunate people end up

in the criminal justice system. We found 10% of the prison state. That

is many thousands of people. That is remarkable. It is a huge

statistic. It maitd be denied by the Ministry of Defence. -- may be

denied by the Ministry of Defence. Many of them, by the way, will be

suffer from psychiatric conditions. So what we need to do is to screen

these people properly. My view is we would look at a fraction of

those people getting involved in crime. When you put the feelers out,

what kind of response have you had? Well the Welsh committee are

looking at it. A lot of good quork has been done by our friends --

work has been done by our friends. We have the military covenant

enshrined in law. We need to back that up with positive and firm

action. That is what I am pressing for you. The time is right for that

to happen. Good of you to talk to Next week we will back in Cardiff

and we will get to grips with a subject that lots of you are