14/04/2013 The Wales Report


14/04/2013

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measles epidemic in Swansea. Should the MMR be obligatory for all

:00:14.:00:19.

children? Welfare of people - a special report by the Paralympic

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champion and member of the House of Lords, tanning great champion --

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tanning great Thomson. And wait take on closer look at Mrs Thatcher's

:00:28.:00:38.
:00:38.:00:41.

involvement in Wales. -- we take a closer look. Great to be back, The

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Wales Report will examine the issues and to hold the decision-makers to

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account. One of those decision-makers -- what are they

:00:54.:00:59.

doing about the measles epidemic? There are growing fears that the

:00:59.:01:02.

epidemic will spread and one expert says it is certain to spread to

:01:02.:01:07.

Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan. Public Health Wales believes that

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40,000 miles children remain unvaccinated. Emergency clinics have

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in full this weekend, all of which prompts rather big question - if

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parents are not responsible, shouldn't the authorities take steps

:01:25.:01:35.
:01:35.:01:35.

to make the MMR mandatory? It has been an anxious time for parents in

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Swansea. And the queues at the emergency clinics get longer as the

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outbreak grows. More than 6000 people, many teenagers, still have

:01:48.:01:53.

not been vaccinated against measles here. Measles can involve much more

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than a fever and a rash. Obligations can lead to deafness, brain damage

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and it can kill. This is the second egg measles outbreak in West Wales.

:02:08.:02:13.

Four years ago there was another without break and fewer than ten

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miles away from here. This nursery was at the centre. 265 people had

:02:22.:02:30.

the disease and VM's. Was one of four children attending the nursery

:02:30.:02:35.

who ended up in hospital. I woke up one morning and she was still in

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bed, not responding. I called the doctor and the doctors said it was

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measles and she sent us to the hospital, and we were admitted. It

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was a horrible time. She was lifeless, it was one of the scariest

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things I have been through as a mother. The outbreak in Swansea is

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three times eager. And she is terrified that other daughter will

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get it. Although Olivia is too young to have the vaccine, her mother is

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among a number of parents asking for the jab early to give their babies

:03:15.:03:20.

protection. There is a panic. Thinking she will go through what

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Abigail has been through. We have spoken to the doctor and they are

:03:25.:03:30.

willing to have her go down to have it earlier. They are happy for her

:03:30.:03:40.
:03:40.:03:43.

to have that. So, why is this big outbreak happening? Why here and

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now? In the 1990s, there was widespread panic. There was the

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publication of the now discredited research strongly linked the MMR

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with autism. The number of babies receiving the MMR -- MMR dropped

:04:02.:04:09.

across the UK but in Swansea, it plummeted. The finger of blame has

:04:09.:04:12.

been pointed at the South Wales Evening Post, which at the time that

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the campaign which featured worried local parents. The editor at the

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time stands by his story. As I saw it, the concerns were totally

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genuine. What were we supposed to do? Tell them to go away? Newspapers

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listen to readers and report and they go to the relevant people and

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say, what have you got to say? that the outbreak we have no is

:04:42.:04:48.

happening, any regrets? No, it is impossible to have regrets because I

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am certain that if we wind the clock back and started again, I cannot

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imagine any bees and why we would not do it the same way. At no time

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did the newspaper ever say to parents, do not let your children

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have this? We never said that. I could argue that I regret the health

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authority did not make that point more effectively. Since then,

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professionals have been proactive in trying to rebuild trust in the MMR

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vaccine. Now, many in the medical community want to go further. They

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are calling for tougher rules to make sure children are immunised.

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The first thing we should do is to ask for some evidence that the child

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has been immunised before they are allowed into school and that happens

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in America. Would that work?I do not know but we must try because we

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presently have a nasty outbreak of measles and we are hoping there

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won't be too many children affected severely and hoping we shall not get

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what is likely to be the inevitable death. What will it take to convince

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parents together children immunised? Will the week -- will be the

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required to have vaccines before being let into nurseries in order to

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stop another outbreak? Helen Callaghan. Joining the night, the

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Director of Health detection for Public Health Wales. So many

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concerned parents. What can you tell me? This outbreak has not gone away,

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we are still seeing 100 new cases every week and I am concerned the

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schools are opening next week and there will be huge opportunities for

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this to spread, more than over the Easter holidays. The vaccine is the

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only thing that. This, there are far too many children who have never

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been protected. We have seen parents demanding it. What is the level of

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demand? At the level that you think is showing a good response? There is

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no doubt that there must have been about 3000 parents across South

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Wales yesterday. That is tremendous. However, the children we really need

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to vaccinate or the older children and we have not seen them coming in

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the same numbers. What is your message to the parents of teenagers

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who are reluctant or think they have time on their hands? The important

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thing is that they signed the consent form, that is at the bottom

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of the schoolbag, so look out. Sign that and make sure their child

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leaves school with appropriate protection. I am convinced in my own

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mind that we have won the war. MMR is safe. You can see parents with

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little babies. I thought that everybody had agreed that it is?

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That argument was resolved some years ago? That is true, the Lancet

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in 2010, they said that. But for parents to be convinced. We have

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never had such media coverage or talked about the forgotten older

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children. We have not engaged parents of those children for a very

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long time in such an effective way. What kind of challenge are you

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looking at? How many people do you need to get vaccinated in the months

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to come? I would not like to say months, there is an urgency as soon

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as is. Within one month?Yes, huge efforts to capture the children in

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schools. How many?If you look at children who should have had at

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least one vaccination, there are 40,000. Children aged between five

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and 18, we should have had two doses, another 30,000. So about

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70,000 children. Within one month? This is across Wales and this is a

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priority, it is a public health emergency, and if we don't do this

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now, you might never get the opportunity again. While we have the

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media support. While this is on everybody's mind. Nobody wants to

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see any death. We might have to rip -- favoured sources but it should

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happen. Everybody will understand the force behind that statement. Is

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death possible to? It is, there were six in France in 2011 and five of

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those working ages. If we don't vaccinate, it will happen.

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parents watching, still wondering if you are on top of this, what do you

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say? I think we have done a huge amount, there is a real effort to

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get this done in schools and they understand the seriousness, they

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understand that the vaccine is the only way to prevent the spread and I

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want them to work with us, the ball is in their court. In the weeks

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coming forward. Get the consent form. In some cases, is it not worth

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taking the ball out of their court and making this obligatory? I would

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not like that. I think parents choice is very important and parent

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choice based on good, accurate information is crucial. The choices

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that parents made 13 years ago were based on what they understood to be

:10:30.:10:34.

the risks. While the professionals might have said it was safe, they

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did not hear that, they saw a motive parents on television and heard

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tragic stories and they made the decision that was right for their

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children. They now recognise, and I have spoken to parents, that if they

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could go back, they would. But they did not know. It'll be a very month

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ahead. We wish you well. Thank you very much. This month sees the

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introduction of the biggest changes ever and limited in the welfare

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system. A study this week by Sheffield Hallam University says the

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changes will have a particularly adverse impact in Wales. Of the ten

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local authorities, most heavily affected across the UK, three of

:11:14.:11:24.
:11:24.:11:32.

them are in Wales. Tony Grey Thomson that came into force two weeks ago

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have described as the biggest shift since its inception. The restructure

:11:36.:11:41.

was required to make the system more simple. But also because of the

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number of times that cost was mentioned, to save money. I don't

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think anybody would have created a system that ended up being this

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contributed or this expensive. There are very few people who do not agree

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that reform is needed. It is harder to agree what that looks like.

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Successive governments have tried to tackle this demand inefficiency but

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it is an uphill battle. Welfare is an emotive issue. The language of

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elephant scroungers has changed to strivers and skivers. They remind me

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of the undeserving and deserving poor of the 1940s and I don't now

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anybody who thinks those who cheat the system should be allowed to. But

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part of the problem does lie in public perception and in reality,

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those cheating are relatively few. Emotion exists in the language and

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nowhere is this more clearly seen than when discussing the bedroom

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tax. Regardless of whether you think this is a tax or a subsidy, the

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words have got people talking in recent months. Steve from carefully

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as one of those people whose lives will be seriously affected by the

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new tax rules. The former security guard who worked all his life but

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had to give up his job because of chronic kidney disease needs

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dialysis three times a week and his spare bedroom has been transformed

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into his treatment room. The one spare room that they say I have,

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they want to stop 14 % of my housing benefit, roughly �12 a week, that is

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money I simply have not got. Benefits, that is not a great deal

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of money, it is the bare minimum that they think you can survive on.

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�50 a month out of that is going to be a real hardship for me. It is not

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a lifestyle choice. It is not, this is not a life, this is just an

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existence. It is hard to argue against the philosophy that people

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should be living in appropriate sized housing for their needs. But

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what has been attempted here is a correction to policy. But holding

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the right size automotive housing where it is really needed. There is

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no quick fix. The reality of moving people is somewhat different to when

:14:07.:14:17.
:14:17.:14:17.

you see it written down. Because of the move in people, it is not

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quantifiable and the true cost I'd only be realised in several years,

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when we can look back and analyse the data. Recent UK government

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statements have suggested that reining in the welfare spending will

:14:31.:14:35.

be an extremely challenging task. But I believe a huge amount could be

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achieved in terms of savings are looking at the administration of the

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system. By ensuring that benefit assessments carried out robbery in

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the first place and that the number of cases that go to appeal and

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overturned down. Sadly, that is part of the detail that we are never able

:14:51.:15:01.
:15:01.:15:13.

to get our teeth into and why Case-study we saw the film, is that

:15:13.:15:23.
:15:23.:15:24.

the sort of person who should they lose out? In no way can the use of

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that room, where we saw that they Ellis's machine, can that be

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described as a spare room. What are his options klezmer going through

:15:38.:15:42.

an appeals process? One of the things we have then is double the

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amount of money available for Wales local authorities through

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discretion the housing payments to help the hard cases. Without

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knowing all the full details, just from what I saw, he is exactly a

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difficult case their knees and additional support. He clearly

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feels that within the rules as they are on paper he will be caught up

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in it. That is telling people that you are not targeting the right

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people. There is a lot of fear around. Any change brings with it

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uncertainty. We're talking about vulnerable people and our job as a

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politicians is to get close to these people. We could be looking

:16:25.:16:32.

at a clip of eight-bedroom with an two bunk bed and a four children.

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The issue of housing overcrowding as well as the issue of single

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people or couples living in three- bedroom houses where they have

:16:40.:16:44.

generally spare rooms. There is a real issue of fairness here as well,

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how we manage the housing stock and a change we're bringing means

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people living in council houses will have to make the same chain --

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decisions as people living in privates homes. In your area, how

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many sports -- spare properties do you have? The great demand in our a

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for two and three-bedroom houses. I get people coming into my surgery

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wanting to move out to their one- bedroom properties. It is something

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we started to see even before the change kicked in. People were

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living into a three-bedroom properties, started to were cows

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they were not going to be able to afford the extra to stay where they

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are. They are arranging swaps were tenants a one-bedroom properties.

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People can do that on the website of the local authorities. If people

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are making decisions. One-bedroom properties are being released. I'm

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not trying to downplay the issue of the shortage. Not everybody

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currently under an occupying will be required to move. Some of them

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will say they value the spare room and will pay for it. Some of the

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research we did shows in some areas of Wales, there is no council stock

:18:05.:18:09.

of the smaller properties, one- bedroom homes where people could

:18:09.:18:13.

move to. In those cases people don't have a choice, they will have

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to take the brunt of the reform. depends on what they want to do. If

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they want to downsize there is an issue. I recognise that. One of the

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reasons we are through the discretionary housing payments, we

:18:29.:18:33.

want to help the transition so it might be somebody wants to move

:18:33.:18:38.

because they can't afford to stay on won't be able to afford it. They

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won the that belong go in there comes property to manage the change

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will stop the payments will help them do that if their local

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authority are using those funds. point of principle, do you think

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and the research by Sheffield Hallam is clear, do you think Wales

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is being asked to share a greater burden of this than other parts of

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the UK? No, I don't think Wales has been asked to shoulder a bigger

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burden. We have a greater proportion of people in Wales who

:19:09.:19:13.

were reliant on benefits, we have a greater proportion of people in

:19:13.:19:17.

Wales who are registered as disabled. Any change to the welfare

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system will impact Wales. Fourth actually, when you look at the

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fruit of what the reformers bring through, encouraging people back

:19:26.:19:33.

into work, supporting people to live fuller lives, you come to the

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conclusion Wales needs welfare reform just as much as anybody else.

:19:37.:19:41.

You have seen the list because the 10 local authorities across the UK

:19:41.:19:47.

most affected by a welfare report, top-ten, is start with Blackpool,

:19:47.:19:50.

then Merthyr Tydfil is number four and then you come to Blaenau Gwent

:19:50.:19:55.

and Neath. If that is three in the top 10. What does that tell you?

:19:55.:20:00.

Way you have concentrated pockets of high unemployment you also get a

:20:00.:20:05.

concentration of people relying on benefits particularly disability

:20:05.:20:09.

benefits. And he's the type of people should be shouldering these

:20:09.:20:15.

changes? -- are these. If you are saying we should be running to the

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barricades to defend the existing system, a system that has kept two

:20:20.:20:25.

and 1,000 people in West from ever working at the end their life, that

:20:25.:20:29.

locks whole communities in worklessness, then no. What we're

:20:29.:20:34.

trying to do through our welfare reform, Tanni Grey-Thompson

:20:34.:20:38.

mentioned simplifying the system, it is about fairness and also about

:20:38.:20:43.

restoring the value of work, the incentives to work into the system.

:20:43.:20:48.

If the welfare system far too often encourages people to stay on

:20:48.:20:52.

benefits and does not create pathways out of poverty. We know

:20:52.:20:56.

work is the only sure way out of poverty. Hopefully in a few moans

:20:56.:21:01.

we will have you back and we will talk about the changes. -- in a few

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months. The headlines have been dominated by the death of by Miss

:21:06.:21:10.

Thatcher. Lot of the news and comment focused on that we deeply

:21:10.:21:15.

divided opinions of what the latter years achieved. Those divisions

:21:15.:21:18.

addit cues which isn't surprising when you consider the traumatic

:21:18.:21:23.

offered -- episode of the miners' strike. Her visits to Wales often

:21:23.:21:28.

sparked a lot of controversy. new industries aren't the heavy,

:21:28.:21:33.

clanking, dirty condition industries. They are good, clean

:21:33.:21:39.

industries. Doesn't that please do? Doesn't that please do? Owed cheer

:21:39.:21:48.

up. That was Margaret Thatcher. She was speaking on a memorable visit

:21:48.:21:52.

to South Wales. Joining me now is the former Labour MP, Dr Kim

:21:52.:22:02.
:22:02.:22:03.

Howells. Also joining us is Cheryl Gillan. Can I ask you, how much of

:22:03.:22:06.

an inspiration was Margaret Thatcher to you? She was the reason

:22:06.:22:10.

I got into politics. I was active in politics but never thought I

:22:10.:22:14.

would be an MP. A lot of women think like that and I didn't think

:22:14.:22:19.

it was for a woman. I remember in 1979 when she was leader of the

:22:19.:22:23.

opposition I sat almost next to her at the dinner for other candidates

:22:23.:22:28.

and she told me that I should be thinking about being an MP. I

:22:28.:22:32.

walked away from that in and sat with a whole load of male

:22:32.:22:37.

colleagues and set, "I think she was right". For she inspired a lot

:22:37.:22:47.
:22:47.:22:49.

of people in Wales. She started the buying the council houses scheme.

:22:49.:22:53.

She had the influence which was powerful enough to get 14

:22:53.:22:58.

Conservative MPs elected in Wales. People forget that. They tend to

:22:58.:23:03.

paint a picture of the 1980s as being a Tory-free zone in Wales. It

:23:03.:23:10.

wasn't. He even when I was elected in 1989, there were 14 Conservative

:23:10.:23:15.

MPs in Wales. Rise from the north all the way to the south. She had

:23:15.:23:22.

an effect. She had another effect which has really resonated over the

:23:22.:23:30.

past week since Lady Thatcher died. She had her virtues, she also had

:23:30.:23:34.

some civvy his defects, I think. The way she treated the call feels

:23:34.:23:41.

was one of them. Defects, do you agree? She did say in that famous

:23:41.:23:45.

speech when there was a vote of no confidence in the Labour government

:23:45.:23:48.

when she was leader of the opposition, no government can

:23:48.:23:53.

protect yesterday's jobs for ever. They can all put off the inevitable.

:23:53.:23:58.

That is how she saw a lot of our industrialisation, many of these

:23:58.:24:03.

jobs were the jobs for the past and could not been protected. We had to

:24:03.:24:08.

look for the jobs for the future. She was also passionate about

:24:08.:24:12.

reducing the involvement of the state which was enormous in those

:24:12.:24:17.

days and giving people individual freedom. We have mentioned the

:24:17.:24:21.

council house sales but reducing the level of personal taxation

:24:21.:24:27.

because she thought Welsh -- wealth creation was important. If we talk

:24:27.:24:32.

about the strength of the Conservatives in the 1980s, has

:24:32.:24:36.

started in 1979 when the upswing for the Tories happened. To what

:24:36.:24:39.

extent was that all about Mrs Thatcher and her brand of

:24:39.:24:49.

leadership? To what extent was it about the 1970s? She knew what the

:24:49.:24:55.

feeling of the time was. I remember right in the middle of the strike

:24:55.:24:59.

we wanted a quiet look and some ports in Essex which we heard were

:25:00.:25:05.

importing coal. In London, we were keeping as if we had landed from

:25:05.:25:10.

Mars at the wealth and the excess as seemed to be on the streets of

:25:10.:25:15.

the city of London in the middle of the miners' strike in 1984. There

:25:15.:25:19.

were severe deprivation here. It was a tale of two nations by any

:25:19.:25:25.

definition. I think Mrs Thatcher understood that. Many politicians

:25:25.:25:33.

did not. We didn't. Cheryl Gillan is quite right, industries lose

:25:33.:25:39.

their primacy and their purpose but, remember, they are not just jobs,

:25:39.:25:44.

the are not an abstract quality, they are people. The way people are

:25:44.:25:50.

treated has an impact upon their psychology in subsequent years.

:25:50.:25:54.

That is why there is such bitterness. If it had been managed

:25:54.:25:58.

better, the decline of that industry, the wheeze was phased out

:25:58.:26:03.

and new jobs coming in and people would be thinking differently about

:26:03.:26:08.

it. But believe me they don't. There are still a lot of people who

:26:08.:26:13.

feel very, very badly about Lady Thatcher event within News she has

:26:13.:26:19.

died. I just think we forget Wales was having not just a tough time

:26:19.:26:23.

but was having a really tough time under Labour governments in terms

:26:23.:26:27.

of the income policies, in terms of what was happening with the mines.

:26:27.:26:32.

If so many mines were closed under Wilson and Callaghan. Even people

:26:32.:26:36.

wanting to protect and develop the Welsh language were not exactly

:26:36.:26:41.

getting good feedback from the Labour government at the time. It

:26:41.:26:47.

took a Conservative government to bring in S4C. That wonderful

:26:47.:26:52.

turnaround in the election and the 14 MPs was the reaction to Labour's

:26:52.:26:55.

treatment of Wales and Wales on the Welsh people wanted to give

:26:55.:26:59.

somebody else a chance. If a final force for you both, one commentator

:26:59.:27:04.

said we have to accept, and the conservatism have to accept, there

:27:05.:27:11.

will always be divided opinion about Margaret Thatcher. -- the

:27:11.:27:17.

Conservatives will have to accept. What would you say? That is right.

:27:17.:27:22.

She was at a strong character and so decisive and so deferens in her

:27:22.:27:26.

views and in her leadership, there will always be discussions about

:27:26.:27:30.

her. We have got to remember there were good things as well as bad

:27:30.:27:35.

things from the perspective of Wales. He then the health and

:27:35.:27:42.

social benefit went up three times. -- health and social budget.

:27:42.:27:47.

Unemployment doubled. It was a time of transition but his was be

:27:47.:27:52.

remembered as the time of creative, imaginative time. It will be seen

:27:52.:27:56.

as an attack, communities that we valued so much in Wales and

:27:57.:28:02.

continue to value. We have survived it. I hope people remember that

:28:02.:28:05.

community is important. I'm not sure Margaret Thatcher believed

:28:05.:28:14.

that. I think she did. You must remember, as long as you're not

:28:14.:28:20.

selected in your memories. I am not going to be selective, in saying

:28:20.:28:26.

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