Browse content similar to 23/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight on The Wales Report, is Wales heading for a housing debt | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
crisis? A Welsh trial of the Westminster benefit changes raises | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
serious questions. Half the population of Wales is | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
either overweight or obese and it is getting worse. Isn't it time for a | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
mainly national initiative? With cases of human trafficking on | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
the rise, we have the stories of those affected, and they are a lot | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
closer than many realise. Stay with us for The Wales Report. | :00:32. | :00:39. | |
Good evening. Welcome to The Wales Report. We examine the issues that | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
matter to you, your job, your health, your communities, your | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
schools, and where we question the decision makers. Tonight we look at | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
the drastic changes to the housing benefit system instigated by the | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
coalition Government in Westminster. Changes that some are warn willing | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
have a devastating effect on Welsh communities. The UK Government's | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
trial of the new universal credit in Torfaen is said to be creating | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
serious financial problems for some vulnerable claimants. The area's | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
biggest housing association is reporting a significant increase in | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
rent arrears and some experts are warning that when the reforms are | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
applied across Wales, the number of people in financial trouble will | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
soar. Helen Callaghan has been examining the likely impact of the | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
welfare reforms across the country. Torfaen in South Wales is a place | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
that's seen the future. It has been one of the pilot areas for universal | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
credit, the UK Government's new benefit scheme. The trial is meant | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
to show the system can work, but that's not what we've discovered. | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
Take Colin Bic, who lives in Cwmbran. She proud of his house and | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
he's had help from the local housing association to make it his home. | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
They did a refurb last year, on the kitchen. I love it here, so I don't | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
want to lose it. But Colin, who has disabilities, was worried that that | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
could happen. Until last year, his housing benefit was paid directly to | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
his landlord. Now under the universal credit pilot scheme, it is | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
given to him. The aim is to get people to take responsibility for | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
their own money. For Colin, it was a daunting prospect. I find, I would | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
have thought extra money, there forgot it was to do with that and | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
with my disability and everything I would have thought it is extra | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
money. I forgot it is for the landlord and I would have spent it. | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
Col sin lucky, he volunteers with a credit union, and they've been | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
helping them with his finances. He wouldn't be able to do it on his | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
own. He isn't the only person in the area having difficulty. People here | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
have struggled. A fifth of the tenants who started the pilot | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
project have ended up going back to the old system, where rents is paid | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
directly to their London Lords. They simply couldn't cope with doing it | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
all themselves. But there was a cost to doing that. At the largest | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
housing association, they believe charging those in debt extra is a | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
serious flaw in the universal credit scheme. Some pretty hefty, I would | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
almost describe them as punitive claw-backs that people will have | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
deducted from their benefit to repay arrears to the point that they'll be | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
sucking a lot of money out of the household. That's going to cause | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
extreme poverty. Do you buy your child a pair of shoes they need or | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
pay your rent? Those are the dilemmas people are facing. In | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
Torfaen many on the pilot project simply failed to pay their rent. | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
Arrears rose to more than 5%. What will happen when the scheme is | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
rolled out across the country? The Wales Report asked a leading | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
economist to look at the figures and analyse the potential impact for | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
Wales. He believes substantial Government investment will be needed | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
to make the scheme work. If lessons are not learned from the pilot | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
project, then inevitably arrears will become a serious issue for | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
housing associations. There should be enough support in the system to | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
keep arrears below 5%. There must be a lot of monitoring and there must | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
be a lot of support for tenants to move back on to direct payments and | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
to landlord payment. You are going to need a lot of support for that. I | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
would imagine in terms of budgets, it is difficult to put a ?1 million | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
figure on it but you would need to put about 5 periods of the total | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
budget into that resource pot. And as well as costing the UK Government | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
more money in administration, this scheme could also cost housing | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
associations. This housing association in Cardiff, which | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
provides houses for 2,000 families in the city, has seen our figures. | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
Its finance director told me there may be serious consequences when | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
universal credit goes live. If it is rolled out across the UK, they're | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
going to have problems. I think arrears for a housing association is | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
concerning. Because we can't then build the new homes that people | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
desperately need. It is money we can't use on other services. But | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
there are growing concerns that the Government is ignoring those | :05:23. | :05:24. | |
problems that have been thrown up by the pilot project. Next week | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
universal credit will be rolled out to more locations across the UK. It | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
is claimants like Colin who will be living with the day-to-day | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
consequences. That was Helen Callaghan reporting. | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
Joining us from our Westminster studio is the Wales Office Minister | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
Stephen Crabb. Thank you for joining us. No problem. Are you concerned by | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
the arrears figures? Do they tell us that this scheme is fraught with | :05:55. | :05:56. | |
risk? The figures don't tell us what the final scheme will look like. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
This wasn't a pilot project as such, but demonstration project. What we | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
saw in Torfaen was one of six projects around the country that | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
tested different ways of supporting tenants as we make this big change | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
from paying their housing benefit direct to landlords rather than | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
paying the benefit to them, so that they manage their own finances. In | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
each of these six areas we've been looking at different ways of | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
supporting tenants and learning the lessons from them. We are looking | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
closely at the figures that arose from the Torfaen project and seeing | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
exactly what safeguards need to get put in place to protect the tenants, | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
to protect the housing associations, and the landlords themselves from | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
the risk to their revenue, which was highlighted in your piece there. We | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
are coming up with a package which I believe will make universal credit | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
robust as it is rolled out across Wales. When you talk about | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
protecting tenants, like our cais study, who has learning | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
disabilities, someone many would consider is in a vulnerable | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
position, would the lessons learned be that someone like him shouldn't | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
be involved in the project? Partly from the evidence from Torfaen and | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
other projects, people with severe challenges in life, people | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
struggling be alcohol dependency, drug abuse, people with learning | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
disabilities as well, for those people payment of their benefit will | :07:23. | :07:24. | |
still go direct to their London Lord to protect them in that way. But the | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
starting point for universal credit, this is the huge change, will be | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
that the vast majority of people are able to manage their own finances. | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
We should expect them to manage their own finances. And actually | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
when you look at the Torfaen figures, the results from the | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
project there, the vast majority of people were able to manage their own | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
finances. Part of the way we tackle entrenched welfare dependency in | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
Wales is by changing the mind-set, encouraging people to be responsible | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
with finances and giving them the support to help them to do so. But | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
our case study was someone with clear learning dibble pis who has | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
been sucked into this scheme. It was that a mistake? No, it is part of | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
the learning from the demonstration project. If a tenant falls into two | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
consecutive months arrears there'll be an automatic switch-back to | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
paying the benefit direct to the landlord, and providing the support | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
to the tenant to help them get out of arrears. There'll be that | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
safeguard in place. Why is this claw-back business that we heard in | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
the film such a punishing one? Why are the measures being taken in | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
terms of arrears so punitive, and some people argue multiply the scale | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
of the problem for the individuals involved? I don't recognise the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
figures that were used in the piece, Huw, but we'll look at that. Clearly | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
if a tenant falls into arrears, haven't kept up with their rent | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
payments, there has to ba way for them to pay back what's owed. | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
Clearly that needs to be a moderate and a sustainable way, or they will | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
fall into greater difficulty. This claw-back is not seen to be a | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
moderate way is it? It is seen to be by those people in the system, the | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
claw-back terms your Government is putting into position are extremely | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
harsh, do you not see that? I make the point this was a demonstration | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
project, one of six looking at different ways of tacking the | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
problem. We shouldn't see the Torfaen results and some of the | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
challenges you highlight from that as the final outcome. It is all | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
going into the mix of things we need to look careful at to make sure we | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
get the right outcome so that universal credit achieves positive | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
fruit that we intend it to in Wales. And viewers draw the conclusion that | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
the claw-back terms would be revised works they be right? We monitor | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
these constantly to make sure problems aren't been exacerbated and | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
we'll see what lessons are to be learned from Torfaen to ensure that | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
the final outcome when we roll out universal credit in Wales is fair | :09:56. | :09:56. | |
and it delivers benefits that we intend it to. Let's not forget that | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
200,000 families in Wales will see their average benefit entitlement | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
under universal credit incareers by ?160 per month. There's lot to be | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
gained for Wales in the roll-out of universal credit. It is important | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
that we tackle the teething problems but let's look at the bigger picture | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
that welfare reform will deliver for our economy and society. What is | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
your message to the housing associations will face increase | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
costs if they are looking to chase areerksds they have administrative | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
costs attached to. That will you put your hand in your pocket and give | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
them a bit of help or not? The Government is making available | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
substantial resources to ease the transition to the roll-out of | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
universal credit. Part of that is working with the housing | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
associations. But clearly from the demonstration projects, one of the | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
things we need to be doing is talking closely with the housing | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
association, finding out what works and what doesn't. Finding out ways | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
they can better support their tenants of the one of the challenges | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
here is encouraging housing associations and other landlords to | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
understand their tenants' needs better, to help support them and to | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
be part of the solution in this. Minister, thank you for joining us. | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
The latest health research confirms that more than half the people in | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
Wales are classed as overweight or even obese and the nation's | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
waistlines are expanding year on year. Over the past few weeks BBC | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
Wales has a special season of programmes, Live Longer Wales, has | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
been looking at what people can do and what Government agencies can do | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
to tackle what is called the modern Welsh epidemic. With me is one of | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
the world's leading experts on beerfcts head of the Sandford school | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
of policy in North Carolina. He's investigated the Welsh weight | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
problem and says people can't be relied upon to make the right | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
choices. We can count on personal responsibility that reveal with | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
problems of obesity but it is contrary to the way we address | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
problems of health in general. We have a very unhealthy food | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
environmentment some people have the willpower and restraint to prevail | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
over it. But obesity is stampeding out of control. So, in an exclusive | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
poll for BBC Wales we asked you what you think. Do politicians and public | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
authorities need to do more? Firstly a strong majority of those asked | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
believe that TV adverts for junk food should be banned before 9. | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
00pm. 65% of you think that the | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
Government's robust antismoking measure shoes be the template for | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
action against obesity. But there is a limit to the appeal | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
of state intervention. 73% of those questioned did not want Government | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
telling them what they should and shouldn't eat. | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
Our health correspondent has been treating himself to some cake and | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
some pop at the Senedd to see what politician are planning. | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
What's the healthiest cake you've got? It is probably the carrot cake. | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
You've convinced me, can I have a clies of that and a bottle of pop, | :13:06. | :13:14. | |
please? Yes, no problem. That looks fantastic Thank you. When the slices | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
are this big and the cake looks so good it is easy to succumb to | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
temptation. But in an effort to get the grips with our expanding | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
waistlines is it time for the Welsh Government to say enough is enough, | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
you've had your fill? Over the years millions of pounds have been spent | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
on initiatives to try and make us healthier, to eat better and to | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
exercise. But is just getting us to eat more carrots instead of carrot | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
cake enough? Or is it time the Welsh Government starts wielding a very | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
big stick? I can tell you they've been thinking about it. | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
Around this time last year, the Welsh Government asked for views on | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
whether or not there should be a new law on pillow health. The response, | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
they say, has been encouraging. They've been cooking up ideas about | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
what it could involve. Banning supersides portions in restaurants | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
perhaps or prohibiting fast food places being located close to | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
schools. And it is not just the Government. Plaid Cymru recently | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
announced if they came to power they would put a levy on sugary drinks. | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
Cheers. So will the new public health law | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
become a reality? The answer the Welsh Government's Chief Medical | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
Officer gave me was, wait and see. Could it be a key ingredient in the | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
effort to make us healthier or are Ministers slowly losing their | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
appetite amid concerns of a nanny state? | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
As you can see there's plenty to chew over. | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
Is that the biggest piece of carrot cake I've ever seen? I don't think | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
I've ever been served a portion like that in my life. | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
Chris has been involved in consultations with the Welsh | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
Government on beerfcts and Andrew is leader of the Welsh Conservatives. | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
Thank you both for coming in. Chris, what is the case for public health | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
law which takes some of the measures that Owain was mentioning there? I | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
think there is a case. We certainly are finding that lots of people are | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
overeating. Unless we legislate and perhaps help them to eat healthily, | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
this situation is just going to get worse and worse. Where is the | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
evidence that legislating will encourage people? There is some | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
evidence. But I think perhaps Wales needs now to be the leader here, | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
because we've got the opportunity to do something. Certainly as | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
dieticians, we think that public health Wales needs to take the lead | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
in terms of legislating or perhaps educating people in a way that they | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
can understand. And certainly some projects that I've worked on over | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
the years I've seen that happy. Andrew, the problem is that being | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
nice and offering polite advice, clearly it hasn't worked. Getting | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
people to take responsibility for themselves or their families in far | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
too many cases hasn't worked, so we are on to the legislative option. Do | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
you think that's reasonable? I struggle on the legislative option, | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
because actually it is an objective opinion as to what is bad for you | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
and what's good for you. We need to be looking at lifestyle in its | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
entirety, whether it is exercise, what we eat, the environment we live | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
in and indeed the planning system we use to create eur cities, towns and | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
villages and the way that food is put before us. From your tape there | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
there was a sizeable piece of cake there. What size is a reasonable | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
portion? What might be reasonable to you is most probably a small portion | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
to me, with the greatest. Are it is about accepting the individual | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
ultimately has to be at the centre of the debate. Understood. But that | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
is a familiar argument that you put clearly there. Again, the problem's | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
getting worse, so clearly that argument so far hasn't been an | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
effective one. At what point due begin to think that legislating is | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
going to help in some instances? The point I would put back to you is | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
public health Wales came out recently and highlighted many of | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
their campaigns which haven't succeeded, because the messaging | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
either hasn't been strong enough or they haven't been hitting their | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
target audience. It is an objective opinion here. If you are going to | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
shape legislation, who is the person who is going to say what is an | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
unhealthy meal and what is a healthy meal? What weather is a good-sized | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
portion and what is bad? Is it common sense? It's not as simple as | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
that. The entire system, is it goes from planning, what we make | :17:50. | :17:51. | |
available for people to consider size and the food we consume and the | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
lifestyle we lead in the 21st century. Chris, give me an example | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
of a measure that could be legislated on which you think would | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
have a measurable impact on this problem. I think making sure we've | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
got good public health messages and certainly making sure the advice | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
that we give people is connect. I would say that that advice is there | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
already. It is but the problem is there are lots of other people | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
chipping in on this. What we are finding in practice is that people | :18:24. | :18:25. | |
are confused about what they should be eating. To whack that -- to back | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
that up we need more money invested. There are so few dieticians in | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
Wales, the total number is less than 300. There is not a lot we can do | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
with those small numbers. I think we need to look at certainly | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
legislating in terms of not allowing them to put fast food restaurants | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
near schools. That's quite important. That's one. And I think | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
also, perhaps we ought to look at legislating on things like fizzy | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
drinks. You would have to put a lot of tax on a fizzy drink to prevent | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
people from buying them. I think that is an issue. What about TV | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
adverts? TV adverts definitely I think need to change, because they | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
are being, I think they are flouting the rules, particularly on | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
terrestrial TV. I think we need to look at that as well. Fizzy drinks, | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
a big levy on fizzy drinks works that make sense to you? I think it | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
was a conference speech. As a measure. A tax which they were | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
talking about, which relice on people drinking more fizzy drinks so | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
you can create more medical positions. I think the argument is | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
more nuanced than that. I was involved in a campaign to promote | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
school milk. I found out that schools were offered inducements to | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
stop vending MPs with fizzy and sugary drinks in them. Those | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
messages and inducements need to be stopped. That doesn't need | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
legislation. We don't need Government involving themselves in | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
every facet of lives. We need stronger public health messages. | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Look at the way the fast food industry operates. They have mentals | :20:06. | :20:07. | |
that are resentive to people. We in the public sector and public health | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
have to get sharper and more critical in our messaging, because | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
this is killing people prematurely. And it is killing people younger and | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
younger each year that passes. Is legislation the way to do it? I | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
suggest to you I don't think at the moment that argument's been made and | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
I would be very concerned about interfering as a politician in the | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
choices that people have to make as individuals. Good to talk to you | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
both. Thank you for coming in. There's been no shortage of stories | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
in recent years about human trafficking. The UK is especially | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
vulnerable because of its thousands of miles of coastline and Wales | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
shares some of that vulnerability. Cases of human trafficking have | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
risen bay quarter in the past year. And victims are often targeted to | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
provide cheap labour, to join gangs of beggars or even for sexual | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
exploitation. The writer and director Jennifer Hartley has been | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
collecting the stories of people in Wales for a tour. He hit me on the | :21:12. | :21:24. | |
face. He pulled me by hair into a room and hit me. I do, I do not | :21:25. | :21:35. | |
understand. I hear a girl screaming. Then I he rape me Human trafficking | :21:36. | :21:45. | |
is a problem that's happening on our doorstep. It is not somebody else's | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
problems, it is ours and it is a growing problem and it will become | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
more and more our problem if we don't do something about it. This | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
man, he tell me he has friend who bring me to the UK, where I will get | :22:00. | :22:08. | |
help. I am happy. I am very happy. I think I start new life. | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
You've got people who are coming over from abroad with promises that | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
they can be models or offers of work. And a lot of them are with | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
recruiting agencies that are set up by the traffickers in various | :22:26. | :22:36. | |
countries, Eastern Europe, wherever. He said this is modelling. We must | :22:37. | :22:46. | |
do this model for anyone, he say, and if I say no, they give me drug. | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
I started to hear the stories and work with these people I couldn't | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
believe not just that it was in the UK, as big as it was, and that it | :22:59. | :23:06. | |
involved British people, not just foreigners coming in from outside. | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
But also that it was literally on my doorstep, being in Wales. Sometimes | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
when you take the pills you think you've got it, like you don't know | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
what's real no more, but it don't matter. Then you don't care what you | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
do to you. Education of the public and education of the youth I think | :23:30. | :23:37. | |
would be mainly steps towards help not eradicate the problem, I can't | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
see it ever been eradicate casmtd it's a multimillion dollar business. | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
Which is a horrific thing to see, but it is true. The and within that | :23:46. | :23:54. | |
life is very cheap. You can see and you can hear, but you stopped to | :23:55. | :24:03. | |
feel. Joining me to discuss some of the issues raised by that dramatic | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
representation is Steven Chapman, the anti- man trafficking | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
co-ordinator for Wales. Thank you for coming in. Thank you. The fact | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
that your job exists tells us there is a problem. What's the scale of | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
the problem in Wales? We don't really know. Most people say what we | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
are dealing with is the tip of the iceberg. Last year there was only 34 | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
cases referred to the national referral mechanism but we know | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
there's a lot more people out there who need rescuing. When we talk | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
about trafficking the perception is it is often Eastern European people | :24:42. | :24:50. | |
being taken advantage of, being shipped into this country by | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
unscrupulous people. First of all can we say let's dispel that myth | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
about people coming to the UK. Yes people are being trafficked here but | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
we've got people being taken from the UK and being trafficked abroad. | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
We've seen cases of people being trafficked internally within the | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
United Kingdom. I don't think we want to stereotype there is any | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
particular type of person being trafficked. In a Welsh context, | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
given that you have this role, what can you tell us about the nature of | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
the problem in Wales that is maybe different to other parts of the UK. | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
Are we more vulnerable? I wouldn't say we are more vulnerable, but the | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
Welsh Government is really leading on this. What we've said is we want | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
to make Wales hostile to human trafficking but we also want to | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
provide the best possible support to people who've been trafficked. If we | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
get that right we'll make our communities safer. When you talk | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
about the problem in a specific Welsh context, that's to say we are | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
not talking about people coming from abroad but problems which are at | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
home, how do they manifest themselves? What are some of the | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
cases you've come across that would make you think that actually there's | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
a problem here, that we are not really dealing with properly? A lot | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
of people say that human trafficking is hidden. It is not. We need to | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
shine a light on it. Yes, we've got people in the sex trade. We've got | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
people working in labour who've being exploited. We've got children | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
being exploited. What we've got to do is an awareness of the public. | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
They need to be switched on to this. Just as we are switched on now to | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
domestic abuse, which was seen a decade or so ago as being a hidden | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
crime, we've got to make the public aware of it, because it is happening | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
here. It is happening in Wales in our back yard. Are you saying that | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
there are people who will know of instances of what you deem to be | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
human trafficking but maybe don't characterise it as that? Yes, and | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
what I say is, if you do suspect human trafficking, if it is urgent | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
it is 999 to the police or if it is not urgent, 111. If you want to | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
remain anonymous, we've got Crimestoppers. There are many ways | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
of reporting it. Some people don't feel confident to report. They | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
think, I might be a bit silly. That person I saw, is I don't really | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
know. What I'm trying to say, if you are in doubt, make the call to the | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
experts, who will send someone to deal. A final point about your role. | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
There is a view in some quarters that although you are doing the best | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
that you can, you are too close to the Government, you are part of the | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
Government and maybe it should be a more independent person with more | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
resources and more ability to act in a more robust way. What is your | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
answer to that? The issue is of course I'm close to the Government, | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
I'm a civil servant employed by the Welsh Government. But what we've | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
heard recently is that the UK Government is going to introduce a | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
modern savoury Act. As part of that there'll be the role of an | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
independent UK Commissioner. Until that happens, people are still | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
suffering. Traffickers are getting away with it who need to be brought | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
to justice. And not only brought to justice but we need to take their | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
assets off them. I think what we've done in Wales we are leading the | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
way. Steven Chapman. Thank you. That's it for this week's programme. | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
If you have any comments on the issues discussed tonight, you are | :28:20. | :28:21. | |
welcome to get in touch. We'll be back next Wednesday. Until | :28:22. | :28:33. | |
then, thank you for watching, goodnight. | :28:34. | :28:39. |