30/10/2013 The Wales Report

Zbl tonight on the Walesor, does education policy in Wales make

sense? How can a school class that's excellent be set for closure? Gas

and electricity prices on rise again, but could Wales take the lead

in tackling the big six companies. And, fighting the fight against

payday loans, we meet the vicar who backs everyone to -- urges everyone

to back Welsh credit unions Zbl zbl zbl good evening. Welcome to the

Wales report where we examine the issues that affect lives in Wales

and question some of those making the decisions Zbl tonight, we start

with the challenges facing Welsh schools. It's been three years since

the worldwide ranking of education systems known as PISA found that

Welsh attainment levels in reading, maths and science were the worst in

the UK and needed urgent attention. Local education authorities have

been under huge pressure to up their game. Six are currently in special

measures, including Torvine. Pontnewynydd Primary School is the

only school to get an sxel lent rating by inspectors, but it's been

selected for closure -- excellent rating. Helen's been listening to

the concerns of parent who is seem to need a lot of convincing that

Wales has the coherent strategy that it needs Zbl colour Pontnewynydd

Primary lives up to its school motto - only the best is good enough. It's

the only school dein this area described as excellent

across-the-board Zbl it's sector leading in some areas Zbl while the

school gets top marks, the local education authority is failing. One

of six LEAs are currently in special measures. Many are exasperated that

instead of getting the school to share its best practice,

Pontnewynydd has been selected for closure Zbl nchts thank you very

much for coming today... Zbl the governors have called a special

meeting to voice their dismay Zbl ncht I really think they should

rethink about the closure of Pontnewynydd school because it's an

excellent school. The only excellent school in the borough. We can't

believe they are coming out with this proposal when it's the best

performing school. Gives this emthe right to shut it or propose to shut

it? Because the pupil numbers here are down, it doesn't comply with a

different education policy designed to reduce surplus places. Parents

and governors here think that Pontnewynydd and other schools like

it are falling victim to conflicting education policies. They say that

strategy is muddled and that trying to find out who's responsible for

different aspects of education is utterly baffling It doesn't seem to

add up at the moment. There's no commune caution between the

education authority, the council, the school, the governors. Who is

responsible for education services in Wales and who is making these

crucial decisions? At the moment, Welsh Government policy is filtered

down through 22 local education authorities. Democratically

accountable to you. If those authorities fail to make the grade,

then they are subject to intervention by one of four

Government-appointed bodies, tasked with driving up school standards,

otherwise known as the regional consortia. On top of that, Education

Minister Hugh Lewis recently announced a national model to

improve schools. Confused? The man in charge of the body brought in to

prop up the area act nones that current arrangements can appear

mystifying. It must be confusing. Even coming together as a country

deciding on national model so looking across four regional models

that were different up to now would cause even greater confusion. We

recognise that. Adding to the confusion, the Williams Review. This

changing picture of, are they going to be 22 local authorities builds

further complexities into what the future will look like For the pupils

at Pontnewynydd and the other 73,000 children across Wales currently

being schooled in areas under special measures, it's now that

counts. The battle to keep this school open goes on They face an

uncertain future until a final is made -- decision is made next year.

Someone needs to decide quickly. Everyone keeps saying 22 authorities

is too much, but nobody seems to be actually saying what the solution is

or what some of the proposed solutions are. According to the

parents here, only when the system itself is clear, coherent and puts

excellence first will children in Wales get the education they

deserve. I don't think people know who is running what and I think from

a personal perspective, so long as it runs well, and my child's happy

that,'s what's important to me. If they practise joined up writing in

school but they don't practise joined up thinking, why don't they

sit round the table and discuss education properly? Some forthright

views from the parents there in Pontnewynydd. Naturally, we asked

the Education Minister, Hugh Lewis to appear on the programme to answer

some of those points, but he was unavailable. We received a written

statement from the Welch Government saying: It cannot comment on a

specific proposal from an individual local authority. It goes on to say

that the interests of learners should be paramount. With that in

mind, joining me now is the Director of The Association of teech rs and

lecturers in Wales, Phillip Dixon. Do you blame parents for being

concerned? Not at all. It's a very confusing situation and the

commentator who said they need to do joined up thinking is spot on.

What's gone wrong? A lot of it rests with the local authority. There was

a lot of drift and Duncan Smither in Government policy, we weren't clear

what should be the top Brightonties. Those things are getting better but

there's still confusion for teachers and for pupils. How soon should they

reduce the local authorities? Much fewer than 22 and as soon as

possible. The frustration the parents that got there, I share

that, we have been talking about there for over a decade. Let's do

something about it and reduce the number and get to it a sensible

number. Is that to do with confusion in terms of the number or to do with

confusion about the quality of work and the quality of supervision from

the local authorities themselves? Are they underperforming?

Definitely. We see six have been put into special measures. We are a

small country, about three million people live here, we have 22 local

authorities when really if you look across the border to England, we

should have three or four at most. When there is a battle, we are in

that climate, does what is happening in Pontnewynydd make sense? Not

initially because you have an excellent school there. Up to see

that practice spread out and amalling plated. -- amalgamated.

There is a confusion about the key priorities and what the Government

needs be setting to do that and policing and enforcing it and making

sure the 22 authorities are following the line. What would you

like the Education Minister to do? How clear and coherent could the

strategy be and something that is not ten years in the making? It's to

reiterate what we have seen before, the key priorities are literacy and

numeracy and insisting that's filtered through all policies, so

when schools are judged on whether they are failing or not, when we see

proposals of school closures that is the criteria that are used. Do your

colleagues accept some responsibility for underperformance

where it happens? Is there an issue with standards of teaching in Ways

which is possibly a bigger problem than say in Scotland or England --

Wales? I don't think there's a difference in standard of teaching.

There's always one or two teachers that shouldn't perhaps be in the

profession, we accept that. The real problem has been the confusion

created by having 22 local authorities, createded from the top

by the Government over the last ten years, where it's not given the

clear message. That's the problem. I remember talking to a head teach er

who said he's had a different priority and he's been ahead for

eight years. Which can't go on like that. We need a clear direction that

these are the things that matter for the next ten years I'm asking the

question because we are facing a new set of PISA report results. Let us

hope they are improved. Even if they are, there's still a gap that Wales

has to make up. I'm wondering again, is it very easy for teachers to say

it's nothing to do with us, it's all to do with strategy and the bigger

picture, shouldn't the politicians be accepting more of the

responsibility for the fact that numeracy, literacy is such a big

problem in Wales? I share your hope but I fear the PISA results will be

worse this time around. Teachers are very concerned because they want the

best possible outcomelets -- outcomes. The vast majority of

teachers want to deliver for pupils, but they need the resources to do

that. We have seen chronic underfunding and we have had this

drift and dither in policy until very recently. Perve- you -- thank

you very much. British Gas agonised over the issue of rising prices How

can the profits be fair when people can't afford to pay for their

energy? The reason it's fair is because if I don't make a 5% profit

in my business, I can't afford to continue employing my 20,000 people

who're equally members of society in Britain and I can't afford top

operate the company. It's a fraction of what mobile phone companies make

and not as much as supermarkets make. Some of the evidence in

Parliament yesterday. In Wales, we have the distinction of having the

highest average electricity prices in the UK despite producing more

than we use. The average dual fuel bill is ?14 100 and -- ?1400. Is

there a specifically Welsh solution to the problem? An our ya that

supplies to some businesses and homes is a nonprofit company. Some

politicians sthawingt a version of this model could be the future for

electricity generation in Wales. Here is how the model works. Since

the water industry was privatised in 1989, Welsh Water existed in a Faw

guise and forms -- few guises and forms. Chris Jones, the current

Chief Executive, went away and decided to set up a company set up

to own, manage and finance Welsh Water essentially as we deliver

water and waste water services to around three million customers

across most of Wales and the adjoining parts of England. The

company itself is a company limited by guarantee. It's unique in that we

don't have any shareholders, any financial surpluses that we have can

be directed back into the company for the benefit of customers. That's

obviously evidence not only in reduced bills, and we are looking to

reduce bills in real terms by around 6% between 2010 and 2015. The model

works because we have the best credit ratings across the utility

sector in the UK. It delivers for customers Could Wales take the lead

therefore in changing the energy market? Joining me now from

Westminster, the former Welsh Secretary, former Energy Minister,

Peter Hain and in Bangor, there's the newly elected assembly member.

Peter, to you first of all is. The problem that the power to change

energy policy is not here in Wales? At the present time, the problem is,

this is a cartel of big energy companies, international ones, that

are rigging the markets, and we saw MPs told yesterday by a small energy

supplier who's head, Steven Fitzpatrick, said he's buying

electricity at a lower wholesale price than two years ago. Yet we

have seen 10% increases over the last year on top of increases in

previous years and actually, to consumers and wholesale prices have

been going down. Wholesale prices fell last year by under 2%. Yet

energy prices have shot up by nearly 10%. This is, in a market that's

wrong, Wales is suffering from it, my constituents, some of them can't

heat their homes any more because otherwise they wouldn't be able to

feed themselves. So there is an issue about a Welsh dimension, but

frankly this is a UK-wide problem that needs to be fixed at a UK

level? Do you buy that I don't. Because what we have seen in the

face of this cartel is a complete failure by successive UK Governments

to deal with the issue which is that people are being forced to pay over

the odds because the big six are being allowed to get away with it.

We are saying that within the powers that we have already in Wales, we

can set up a not for dividend company, such as the model that's

current that would work in the interests of the people of Wales

that should be allowed to get the energy at a fair price that. Can't

happen under the current system. You look at the broad picture though,

both of you, you have specific interests given what you represent

and your policy interests in the pasts. Peter where renewable energy

is concerned, are we at the position where if the Welsh Government had

the power to do it, we could push ahead with some renewable energy? I

would like to think so. Some of the decisions made in Wales, not just by

the Welsh Government, but by local authorities, have been negative as

far as renewable energy's concerned. Such as? Objections to windfarms for

example. I'm not in favour of them carpeting the whole of Wales'

countryside and hills, but I'm in favour of combatting climate change.

In the recent turmoil in our weather, that's wreaking havoc and

imposing huge costs. You need more clean green energy. The Severn

Barrage is my favourite option. But the problem is what you do about the

rigged electricity market and beyond that, I would like to see Wales

leading the way. Within that picture, you didn't mention plans

for nuclear energy which are important in Wales as well. Do you

welcome the plans, Peter, or not? I welcome nuclear as a way of

replacing key power stations, including nuclear ones reaching the

end of their life and we have a problem about keeping the lights on.

Actually, the Hinkley nuclear power stations, enormously more costly

than the Severn Barrage for instance, and you could build a

Severn Barrage at a much cheaper price, privately financed and

produce electricity over its lime time that's half or three quarters

cheaper. That's what I think we should do. Give than cost, what

would you say to the voters that says to you, why are you seemingly

happenty to accept that on your doorstep which it's incredibly

expensive? It's interesting to hear Peter's comments. There's not much

difference in our opinions and it shows that every political party is

having to deal with the pros and cons of the near power. I won't

stand in the way of Peter Hain eats comments. There is an issue there in

that we have spent decades trying to find a consix on that. Perhaps what

we'd like to do is concentrate on things we can do now. Remind us,

because you side stepped the nuclear issue there, what is your policy

there? Our policy is clear, because we have real concerns within the

party, buttel I'll tell you one thing -- but I'll tell you one

thing, people are concerned about issues of cost, safety. On the other

hand, you have issues of economy. We come to different balances. I say,

for my constituents on Anglesey excited about the prospect of jobs,

that is something we can work with as part of, as we remember, UK

energy policy, whilst telling the other people on the other sides of

the argument yes, of course, your concerns are valid. I agree with, as

Peter Hain does, agreez with many of the concerns. -- agrees. He's made a

good point there. I want to add one other thing directed at David

Cameron. He's trying, as is the Chancellor, to cut the subsidy for

renewable energy. It amounts, together with social subsidies, to

insulate poor people's houses and pensioner's homes and so on, which

is absolutely vital with sky high bills that. Accounts, greej energy,

plus the social cost, for under 10% of our bills. The big companies have

put up prices by 10%, so the Prime Minister, in seeking to attack green

energy is barking up entirely the wrong tree.- both very much The

rising price of energy is one of the main reasons given by people for

falling into debt. No surprise, say experts, that more and more people

are turning to day day loans, the controversial form of lending which

often carries sky high interest rates. The Archbishop of Canterbury

has already declared war on the payday loan companies. One of his

colleagues, Brian Pippin, says the answer is clear, there are 70,000

members of credit unions in Wales, that number is expected to double by

2020. He chairs the Gateway community and says it's a model for

Paul of Wales. -- model for all of Wales. The church for some of us is

a moral compass, our Sunday mornings, our sense of being, our

financial guide. Back in 1999, the church in Wales made four annual

grants of ?15,000 to part fund the credit union officer working out of

the Cooperative centre. That money helped to kick start many of the

credit unions in Wales Three years earlier in 19let 6, myself and other

church members and members of other congregations in Pontypool and of

this community, helped set up gateway credit union here in

Pontypool. We started with just 22 members and now we have 2,500

members. We have 12 collection points and three offices in the high

streets around the counties During that time, we have lent millions of

pounds to the financially vulnerable.

It was started to have some means of offering an alternative to the

doorstep lenders and loan sharks that were very prevalent in the

early 90s. Morning... Many, many years ago, we did go to one of these

companies that would come and collect the money with high interest

rates. I'd never go back to that and I never want to I'm here for my son

today. Basically, he's only 21, he's finding it very difficult to get

credit. Really, I'm just trying to instil into him basically being able

to manage his money. When people are desperate to pay the money, to pay a

bill, tax the car or to cover an emergency, the signs in this window

seem to give the simple and quick answer. A A beinger attraction is

the bead at which you can get the money. You can go online, 15-20

minutes, the money can be in your account. -- a big attraction is that

the speed at which you can get the money. It can become a fabric of

society. Payday loans depend on desperation. Isn't it time we

inVoyced in our -- invested in our credit unions so they survive and

thrive to kill off this exploitive industry?

Joining me now is Dr Barry Morgan, Archbishop of Wales, mentioned in

that report. And Russell Hamblin-Boon. Welcome to you both

and thank you for joining us. Archbishop, credit unions are a sign

of desperation? Not at all. Payday loan companies are a sign of

desperation because people go to them because they need money

desperately. Either for food or for some essential equipment for the

house, or to pay off other loans. Consequently, that's the desperate

default point. It seems to me that credit unions provide an alternative

because they don't charge anything like the rate. It's 2% at the

minute, it will go up to 3% next year. If you take out loans from

payday company, you can be paying 3, 4, 5,000% interest and very often,

people just go to the wall. What is the place, Russell, as you see it,

of payday loan companies in the role of financial services? I don't

disagree with the Archbishop that things are difficult for people.

Prices are going up, salaries are not rising. People are financially

stressed. A short-term loan from a reputable lender, the type of

businesses that I represent that belong to my trade association, may

be able to help people this that situation. Equally, they may be able

to get. Help from a credit union. The difference, I would say, is that

with a short-term loan, while you have to go through all of the checks

and measures, as if you were applying for a credit card or

looking for finance for a sew far for -- sofa for Christmas or

something, they may be able to get the money to you more conveniently

and quickly. We don't charge thousands of percent interest. The

cost is explained in paoundz pence and it's on average ?25 per ?100

that you borrow. Which is still pretty significant? It's a more

expensive way of financing, but for many people, it isn't an option. For

many people, it's a convenient and safe way of them managing their

wider budgetary expenses. That is a point, isn't it, that if the company

are clear about the charges, if they are very open about the way they

bring in their money and given the fact that they are in the

profit-making business, what is wrong with it? When you are

desperate, you don't think of the implications. 25%, to begin with, is

a huge rate of interest. The trouble is, of course, people can't pay back

the capital sum to they are paying interest on interest and on the

capital sum. Why I'm in favour of credit union is, that although it

may be complicated to join it, if it became more respectable in this

country, as it is in Ireland and America, where they are part of the

fabric of society in a way thatter in not in mainland Britain, then I

think more people would pay into them and we'd be able to help more

people to get short-term loans at a vastly reduced rate of progress. The

Archbishop of Canterbury famously said he wanted to put one of these

firms out of business, the firms that you represent. Given the fact

that we are talk competition here, credit unions would be competing for

business. Would you not see them as a threat? I met with the

Archbishop's team of staff to talk through the campaign to see if there

was anything that we can do to help. They immediate it very clear that

the campaign is not an anti-payday lender cam Pape, and we fully

support that. One way perhaps we might be able to move the campaign

forward is to talk to the businesses I represent, talk to me, rather than

attack us, to ask us, how could we do this better, what are you doing

that we could replicate in order to improve our business. Part of your

case is attacking snell These are the positive advantages of joining

the union, rather than borrowing money from payday companies. I

recognise that perhaps some of the companies represented by our friend

are very respectable ones, but there are lots of payday loan sharks out

there who charge interest rates of 4-5,000% and they are grossly

immoral. You are say you don't represent those? Certainly not

disreputable businesses and scrupulous lenders. A lot of people

whoer turned down by reputable lenders might actually end up in the

hands of those people, rathered than going to a dread union and perhaps

there's something we can do to work together to make sure the right

people are using the credit unions, as well as not having the option if

they want to of taking out a short-term loan through a payday

lender. That would be wonderful. If that were to happen and we could

help more people, no-one would be more pleased than I Thank you both

very much That is it for this week. Any comments or questions, please

get in touch. You can e-mail us and we are on Twitter too. We'll be back

next Wednesday. Until then, thanks for watching. Good night.