12/03/2014 The Wales Report

Tonight on the Wales Report. The highest rate of child poverty

outside London is here in Wales. What does that tell us about the

Welsh Government's strategy? With just over six months to polling day

in Scotland, we look at the potential impact of the independence

referendum on Wales. And the power of satire. Why is Welsh politics

seemingly not such fertile ground for comedy? Stay with us for The

Wales Report. Good evening. Welcome to The Wales

Report, where we take a look at the issues making an impact on lives in

Wales, and question some of those making the decisions. On tonight's

programme. Around a third of children in Wales are living in

relative poverty, according to the latest figures released by the

Department for Work and Pensions. The figures show that 33% of

children are judged to be living in poverty - the highest rate outside

London. And figures from the Welsh Government show that Wales has the

highest proportion of children living in severe poverty in the UK -

14%, compared to 13% in England and 9% in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The gap in poverty and educational attainment in Wales is falling - but

it's is still wider than in England. The Welsh Government has pledged to

eradicate child poverty by 2020. How likely is that? And what are the

views of young people in Wales? We'll be joined in a minute by the

Deputy Minister for tackling poverty, Vaughan Gething. We have a

special report from the Hawthorn High School in Pontypridd. If a

child at school is having problems at home, it forces them to grow up a

bit and makes it hard for them to be a child. It is obvious for someone

in school that there are problems, children tend to pick up on them

better than most people. It is a big distraction from school and from

learning. It is just hard. If you see people the things you have not

got, you will take that back home and take it out on your parents. It

is hard to admit it, it is hard to ask for help, because for some

people it is embarrassing to say that you are struggling. Free school

meals is good, but there was a problem with people getting picked

on, people getting left out of trips. Some of them are important to

get two exams so they cannot get on the trips and then achieve what

everyone else is achieving. People notice and start asking awkward

questions that people might not want to answer. It is hard to stay here

at the moment. I would want to but I don't see the opportunities that you

could get abroad or even in England. The things I want to achieve, I

cannot achieve here. I need to move. If you want to achieve things you

have to move. Help with scholarships would help a lot, because university

is so expensive. It is hard on someone's self-esteem when every one

else is doing well around them but they can have little, or nothing at

all. Very interesting. Some young adults from Hawthorn High School in

Pontypridd. Joining me now is the Deputy Minister for tackling

poverty, the Labour AM, Vaughan Gething. This main target we have,

of eradicating child poverty in Wales by 2020, are you still

sticking to that? It remains a goal of the Welsh government. We have

been honest that the challenge of it has expanded. It has got more

difficult with the financial crisis and the recession and unhelpful

measures taken in the UK Government programme of welfare reform. Every

objective commentator says that it makes it more difficult for children

to exit jarred poverty as a result of the changes that have been made.

But it remains our goal, because it focused the attention on action, and

I think that every department should have this as a priority, to what it

does and why it does it. If we do not achieve that goal, there will be

an honest conversation about why we have what -- not got there, but I

want to have that conversation in 2020. I do not think it helps with

the direction and focus of government and our partners if we

shift the focus halfway through the cause we think it is difficult. Is

it not odd to stick to target that you do not expect to meet? I don't

think it is odd at all. I think the public are rightly suspicious of

politicians say, this is difficult, so we will move the goalposts. There

is more respect to be gained by having an honest conversation about

what we are doing and why, and saying that, to achieve the target

in 2020, we need a significant economic turnaround, and it is not

just about the UK Government, we can do things the anywhere else. -- we

can do things here pinwheels. We can bring things together in one focus

and I have been pleased that that has been bought in to buy other

partners across the statutory, voluntary and business sectors. The

young people made several points, one of them was about free school

meals and some of the stigma attached to that. There is also an

important measure, looking at the gap in academic attainment between

those on free school meals and those who are not, the gap as I saw it

recently was 18.3%. What is your target for reducing that? We want to

narrow it to 10% by 2017. We have a clear aspiration for what we want to

see happening. We have measures within the action plan so that we

can see what progress we make, so we have early intervention in the

flying start programme, helping the most disadvantaged families with

children aged under four and that has been a positive experience for

us. Is that target falling into the category of the 2020 eradication of

child poverty category, which is one that you do not expect to meet, or

is this one that you do expect to meet? I expect us to be measured and

assessed on what we do and do not achieve. There is no good coming

into politics if you do not have ambitions about tackling poverty.

That is why this ministry was created. I accept that. I am picking

up on the figures to measure the extent of your attainment, that gap

at GCSE level is 33%, and in England, it is 26%. Do you have a

target for it using that? We expect to reduce the gap by 10%. Because we

think that is achievable. We think that is something that schools can

do, and schools have a stretching target, that is honest and

achievable. We will be measured on that. The reason why we have these

measures, we do not just want to say that we want to do more and better,

we will have a target that people can measure us on, and focus it on

all partners across the public and voluntary sector, about what we are

here to do. At what point do you accept responsibility for the fact

that some of these figures look rather worse than they did ten years

ago? That is why we have an action plan. We recognise the scale of the

challenge is greater in Wales than in other parts of the UK. That is

why this department has been created, why my post has been

created, why I have gone out across Wales talking to partners across the

country goes this is not just the challenge for us now, but for our

collective future. If we do not juice poverty effectively, our

future is one of April nation, and that cannot be allowed to happen. --

one of a poor nation. In six months' time, voters in

Scotland will decide whether to embrace independence or to stay part

of the United Kingdom. The debate is intensifying. Labour's Gordon Brown

added his voice this week, favouring a new constitutional settlement for

the UK. It's clear that whatever the result - there will be significant

change in Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK. Inevitably,

that will also affect Wales, so our political editor Nick Servini has

been looking at the options. Scotland has voted yes to

independence. Scotland will go it alone.

We should not underestimate the fallout that Wales would wake up to

Scotland vote yes on September 18. There would be a huge programme of

constitutional change. Firstly, let's talk money. Would we get a

bigger portion of UK Government funding if are Celtic cousins went

it alone? At the moment cash from Treasury coffers is shared between

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and what each country gets

is calculated using the Barnett formula. There is criticism that

Wales is short-changed by around ?300 million per year, and criticism

that compared to Wales, Scotland receives too much. And surprisingly,

the Scots have not been too keen on an overhaul of the Barnett formula,

but as an independent country they would be in charge of their own

finances, so would that mean Wales receiving a windfall from

Westminster? If there is a yes vote, that voice of dissent from Scotland

about changing the Barnett, is taken away, but it does not mean that it

would be renegotiated. David Cameron is not a fan of ripping up the

Barnett formula and starting again, but there are concerns that without

any Scottish MPs, Westminster becomes much more focused on

England, meaning that Welsh protest about funding formulas and other

issues would fall on deaf ears. We are dealing with parties that might

not want to deal with Wales, shouting about wanting more of this

and more of that. They might decide that actually, no, we are not going

to negotiate on these things. As a former MP, Assembly member and First

Minister, Rhodri Morgan knows about fighting Wales's corner. He is

concerned that there could be a Celtic backlash if the Scots vote

yes. If suddenly there was this feeling, damned those Celts, they

are nothing but trouble, lots of subsidies and what you get back, any

gratitude? None whatsoever, etc. So, getting any kind of understanding of

the particularities of Wales would be completely forgotten, if there

was an English backlash. With Scotland gone, we're like a mast up

next to an elephant, so we would be exposed to what happens in

Westminster when Scotland leaves. Our tops Tory, Scotland pose no. --

top story. Scots have given independence the cold shoulder. If

there is a new vote, there is still plenty to think about the morning

after the night before. The government will be considering their

next move. If it is a close now, there will be some serious

negotiations between the Scottish government and the UK government.

Will Wales be invited to the party? There is no guarantee that Wales

will have any input into what is going on here and I know that Carwyn

Jones has been saying Wales should be at the table but history tells us

they would be. If it is a close know at the ballot

box, the Scots may not get independence that they may get other

powers anyway. Only say that will mean more devolution here in Wales,

or maybe not. There is no assumption we will get

the same in Wales. It has never been the case in the past. We will

probably be on the sidelines, waiting to see what crumbs fall off

the table. The first minister thinks we should

have more confidence. New financial powers are on the way and he wants

more control over policing and energy. His challenge is to sell his

vision to the rest of the UK. Carwyn Jones has to show what is

this magic that the UK really is and what is its future? Is it an

exciting future or is it a future full of resentment and moaning and

cross-border finger-pointing, as we have seen over the NHS.

Nobody is pretending what may happen in Wales is anything other than

guesswork in the event of a yes or no vote in Scotland. There are too

many variables and here is another -as soon as the referendum is over

we launch into an intense general election campaign and much of the

fallout for Scotland and Wales depends on who is in charge in

Downing Street after a next year. Regardless of which way it goes,

Wales is going to have a huge job getting its voice heard at a time

when the constitutional settlement has never been so uncertain.

It is a process of ifs and buts. It may have an impact but we are not

sure yet. Nick Servini reporting. Plenty of

food for short. Joining me now is the Plaid Cymru AM Simon Thomas and

from our Westminster studio, the Labour MP Nia Griffith.

Is there a danger, picking up from that piece, that we are in effect

sleepwalking into September. Should we be more prepared?

Carwyn Jones already said in November it will have implications

whatever happens in Scotland this coming September and we do need to

be prepared. And we are doing so. I think we are talking about it but

until the actual referendum and we know the outcome, there is a limit.

There are only two options, if they vote yes and if they vote no, there

will still be changes, according to Gordon Brown and other Labour

colleagues of yours. So it is not a massive range of options.

As you rightly point out, Gordon Brown and Carwyn Jones have said we

have to look at what happened then if there is a no vote. Many people

in Scotland would say that there are many people there who would not want

independence but would potentially want some greater sharing of

powers. Simon, do you share the concerns

that were graphically set out in the piece, that Wales could be very from

rubble -- very vulnerable? And independence vote means the rest

of the UK looks very different and the relationship between Wales and

England is different because of an island is always an outlier in this

context. A no vote is uncertain in terms of how to move forward because

we don't have a very clear either Macs opportunity. Gordon Brown has

said something and that is good because it is -- Devo Macs

opportunity. Gordon Brown has said something and that is good because

it is the first time we have heard someone from that position to give

out about it and we have no way of taking politics forward while we

wait for this result. The matter is for Scotland but it doesn't stop us

making the case for what we should have here in Wales, regardless of

what happens in Scotland. And the Silk Commission have made that case.

Rhodri Morgan said that Carwyn Jones should be putting the case for the

UK, if you like, the constitutional pattern that we have at the moment.

The suggestion being that the case is perhaps not being made very

forcefully. Is that fair? It is not entirely fair but it is

important we recognise the value of the union as well as the value of

decisions being made closer to people that if you look at the

Williams report, you have got a clear statement about strengthening

community councils if you go for bigger counties. At the other end of

the scale it is very important that we are looking at things like where

is High Speed two going to go and what is the impact on Wales? When we

are looking at the UK as a whole, it is important to have a whole voice

for Wales. Let's say there is a no vote but

there is not much of a margin. What does that mean for Wales?

We have to look at the suggestions Gordon Brown has made such as the

idea of constitution settlement. Also then looking at the issue that

has come up again in the Silk Commission, about the assumption of

power is being the Assembly unless they are with Westminster, so

looking at that model. And then looking at how we strengthen the

localism links so what we are doing is saying, what is significant for

the UK and what has to be decided at an UK level? That is an important

discussion. Simon, is there an appetite to

follow that process in Wales? And where would that no vote leave

Wales? It leaves us with an opportunity but

there is nothing inevitable about what follows on from de novo. There

is a school of thought that they would want to take that powers.

There is a fight to be made for a proper settlement in what would be a

United Kingdom but then there is a question about the federal

arrangement and then what is the relationship between the distinct

government and the way that could be done at a UK level? That is a huge

opportunity for Wales but it is a difficult one. Silk points to the

direction of what could happen to Wales, whatever happens to Scotland.

What we don't have is a constitutional step on how that

would take place. We have an uncertainty over our relationship

with the union, which we had a debate on only today about the 2017

referendum as our membership of the European Union. That is an

interesting debate. Nobody has sketched out how the UK would deal

with it. Thank you both very much.

Just think of Spitting Image and its power to change people's perceptions

of politicians and policy and we are reminded of the power of satire in

politics. It can generate interest among those who might not be that

engaged, and it can raise awareness of policy debates in a very

effective way. But Wales does not seems to be very fertile ground for

political satirists and there are plenty of theories about the likely

reasons. Comedy writer Benjamin Partridge has been to Amelia Trust

Farm to find out more. Political satire. What is that? Use

of humour, irony or critical to reveal stupidity or hypocrisy.

Basically, taking the mix. -- taking the Mickey. Britain has a rich

history of litter call satire, from the satire boom of the 60s,

privatise magazine about spitting image and programmes on today such

as Have I Got News For You. Why don't we have more in Wales about

our politicians? The key thing is that making an audience laugh relies

on a stage set of references. That is why a lot of comedy is about dogs

or duvets. That is why people don't start their comedy with, do you know

the thing about allergen stained-glass windows from the

18th-century? What I'm trying to say is in order

to make this a difficult point about the health Minister, it helps if you

don't know who they are. It is Mark Drakeford and I did have to look

that up. Sadly, most people in Wales would be

about as successful at picking Mark trick for out of a line-up as this

donkey. Is it him? Watched you think back -- Mark Drakeford. He doesn't

know. But it's not that simple. You can't make jokes about people no one

has heard of but maybe no one will have heard of them unless people

make jokes about them. Political satire is entertainment with the

ability to educate. As a young person I learned more about politics

from Have I Got News For You than I ever did from the news.

A Liberal Democrat MP who broke his back in 12 cases, as well as his

sternum and jaw... That is the last time he inches and Widdecombe --

pinches and Widdecombe's bottom. I need to find the stories that feed

a national debate and what gets my goat is when I'm writing a story

based in Westminster, I can read six newspaper articles about it but this

doesn't exist in Wales. With its active media, Westminster

politics seems like a daily soap opera we can all follow.

This may be a laughing matter for them, it is not to the people in the

North of England. Whereas the semi-politics seems more

likely documentary on farming. It is not only because of Mark Drakeford,

it also stifles political satire. Whether it is deadly important is up

for debate but I think with a stronger media, satire could play a

role in introducing the Welsh public to the people who make important

decisions about their lives and hopefully help foster a healthy lack

of respect for them. Benjamin Partridge there. By the

way, if Mark Drakeford was watching, we know you've got a good sense of

humour and we know you won't be upset by that and we look forward to

having you back soon. Joining me now is the former Liberal Democrat MP

Lembit Opik who is now forging a career as a stand up comedian. You

got your own production company as well.

I'm trying to do the world 's first pro the rainy and political satire.

-- pro-Iranians. I was going to dive into Wales for a

moment but Iran is too tempting. Are you exporting satire to Iran?

We are trying to and if we can make them laugh in a satirical way, Wales

is a walk in the park Mac it is a big if!

But there is an appetite for their? Yes. Satire is such an important way

to get the message across. I'm glad you're sitting down because most

people aren't as interested in politics as you and me so we have to

make it more accessible and that is how it works.

Is it sad that Wales is a barren place for it?

It is tragic and I blame my election defeat on the fact nobody was able

to laugh with me. The difficulty is you have to know the characters in

order for them to be funny and in fairness to Parliament, most people

don't know the MPs but there are hundred and 50 of them. There are

still a few big characters in Wales and they would be open to satire.

Is it the fact that we are in a position in Wales where some people

would say we don't have enough scrutiny of what goes on in Cardiff

Bay and elsewhere, and for that reason people are maybe afraid to

take a risk and don't think there is interest in it?

I don't think there is a vehicle, and Have I Got News For You, but at

the moment it is the big problem, the conformists are winning. There

aren't any nonconformists. You have got George Galloway and Widdecombe

but most people are just ordinary and grey and that is the problem at

the SMB as well. How powerful can -- at the Assembly

as well. How powerful can the Assembly -- how powerful can satire

be? It can be immensely powerful. Boris

Johnson is a classic example of pulling it off and Alex Salmond has

been an example by being a big character. The second example of

when people take the Mick out of you. I have been on a Mac myself but

you have to roll with the punches. -- I have been on Have I Got News

For You myself and I sometimes yield the Welsh Assembly has to lighten up

and until it does that, it won't get their satire.

We did have Rhodri Morgan as first Minister, he is known as a first

Minister. -- he is known as a big character.

He was described as the only man who can make an Armani suit looked like

a denim jacket. It is true if you think about it.

As a final point, is it a part of a bigger problem, the fact that in

Wales, if you compare us with England and Scotland, we don't

really have a rich patchwork of media outlets, press, broadcasting

is very heavily dependent. That doesn't look too clearly healthy.

The people on the eastern border of Wales often tune into the Midlands

and they are lost to the Welsh culture of politics completely. I

think there is a lack of courage and I have thought that since the

Assembly was set up. You have got to be big and bold and otherwise there

will not be any satire. Good luck in Iran! I never thought I

would say that! It is probably a world first.

Good luck. That's it for this week's programme.

We'll be back next Wednesday with a special programme on budget day from

Westminster. In the meantime you can get in touch with us about the

issues discussed tonight, or indeed anything else. E-mail us at

[email protected] and we are on Twitter @thewalesreport. Thanks

for watching. Good night. Nos da.