05/03/2014 The Wales Report

Tonight a special programme from the Senedd in Cardiff Bay. This week a

major report recommends further powers for the Assembly - we quiz

First Minister Carwyn Jones about the next steps on the devolution

journey in Wales. I want to see a settlement that is

clear and Scotland is in that position where we have a better fit

for services being delivered and then we can move on from endless

constitutional debate. Good evening and welcome to a

special programme from the Senedd where on Monday a major report into

devolution in Wales recommended that further powers be devolved here to

the National Assembly. The second part of the Silk Commission put

forward 61 recommendations including handing over control of policing to

Wales, along with granting more powers over energy and transport.

The report also said that the current devolution arrangement is

too complex for people to understand or to find out where exactly power

lies. Professor Richard Wyn Jones, the Director of the Wales Governance

Centre, went along to the report launch. He gives his take on the

report. This is a red letter day for

constitutional anoraks like myself. We are about to go and listen to the

launch of the second report of the Silk Commission and that is going to

determine the way Wales is governed for several years.

Our recommendations emerged out of the evidence. The commission was

established by the UK government after the 2011 action. Crucially,

all four of the parties represented in the Assembly nominated

representatives to the commission. Now begins the time that they try to

mobilise and apathetic public. The government is thinking about a

Scottish independent election and a general election over the horizon.

What is historically important about this kind of exercise is that it

injects basic constitutional principle into the debate, much of

the way Wales has developed has been down to the internal politics of the

parties and you get pragmatic decisions, some of which aren't

brilliant in terms of getting a government that works. These guys

have left their party affiliation at the door and come up with a

anonymous report which tries to inject some principle.

Our commission, I think, did have as it's ambition trying to settle some

of these prisoners questions, trying to settle their powers ought to be

distributed, so that the political dialogue in Wales can concentrate on

how those powers are used rather than the right powers in the right

place or the right structures of government exist.

I'm sure the headlines will be about things like devolving large-scale

energy projects but the real story at the heart of this is a complete

transformation about the model of devolution we have for Wales. To

understand what is devolved in Wales we have defined schedule seven of

the 2006 act and get into the detail. They are suggesting to

transform that and saying, everything is devolved unless it is

reserved to Westminster and that is a completely different mindset. It

will underline the fact that it is the most government and the National

Assembly for Wales which are the key levels of government in terms of our

daily lives. That is a radical transformation. We got the worst

political class, the most government and now the Silk Commission all

agreed that reserved powers is the way to go and this will give us a

more coherent and stable settlement. David Jones, the Secretary of State

for Wales, said that he favoured conferred powers and he doesn't want

a reserve power model for Wales. We have to diametrically opposed

positions and who wins smack comments from David Jones this week

-- who wins? Comments from David Jones suggest he is not about to

change his mind. The people of Wales will want the

bus government to make it clear the powers they get will be used

bus government to make it clear the properly and frankly, after proper

liaison with the UK government, which is another theme which has

developed in the Silk report. The Silk Commission have nominees

from each physical party in the Assembly. These representatives now

have to launch their carefully worded report onto the political

battlefield and convinced their parties to take its recommendations

on board. It is really important for me, as

the party nominee, to go to the conference and persuade our

conference attendance of the importance of actually putting this

into the manifesto, not just for the UK general election but also for the

Welsh election. I am expecting and in anticipating that other parties

will do the same. The content of the manifestoes are

going to be determined by the outcome of big battles within the

Driscoll parties themselves, particular Labour and the

Conservatives. Carwyn Jones has nailed his colours to the reserved

powers last and I suspect he will actually get that. Devolving

policing is the source of contention between Welsh Labour MPs on one hand

and the Welsh government on the other. In terms of the

Conservatives, there has already been a big public falling out

between David Jones and Andrew RT Davies on devolving tax varying

powers. Those battles will continue and intensify. Will this report end

up gathering dust on a Whitehall shelf? I think probably not and

that's because most of the people working in the national Assembly

actually believe we need a reserved powers model of evolution to

establish devolved government on a properly effective and stable

foundation. Notwithstanding that, whatever happens, I think it is

genuinely striking that three years after the last referendum we have a

unanimous report from a cross-party commission recommending further

powers in the devolution settlement for Wales. Wales is changing really

rapidly for up what --. What this has done is ring the bell to

commence a political fight that will play out before us over the next few

months and years. Where will that leave Wales in ten years time? I

might be self-confessed anorak but I'm no profit. Your guess is as good

as mine. Richard Wyn Jones, director of

Cardiff University's Governance Centre there. I'm joined now by

First Minister Carwyn Jones. Let's start on the last point, about

where we will be in ten years time in terms of Welsh devolution.

Where would you like to be? Over the next year or two I would like us to

chart the course for the next ten years. We know things are more

settled than they have been in the past and we have a devolution

settlement that will last. You used the word settled and that

is the word Peter Hain used several years ago and here we are. If the

journey going fast for your liking? There. We have a situation which

have two government bills which end up. It is so vague that people don't

understand where the boundaries are. I would like to see a settlement

which is clear and we have a better fit for service being delivered and

then we can move on from endless constitutional debate.

The Silk report, as you see it, is a tidying up exercise. Proving what we

know is devolved. You are not ambitious for more

powers? It is quite significant because it talks about the reserved

powers model, which is what everyone talks about on the street in Wales!

It makes it clear about who does what and talks about getting the

right level of power over energy, one of our greatest resources. It

talks about devolving the police, which is the only emergency service

which isn't devolved. It is very different and put us in a different

position from when we were before. You have said no to income tax. You

don't fancy that one and we will come on to that shortly but there

are arts of powers you don't want. Yes to policing but no to criminal

justice, for example. We know that. What about teachers pay? We didn't

ask about teachers pay but it maybe they devolved anyway. What is

crucial is they are devolved, the full financial package comes with

it. If it is on offer, we could look at it but we know with the council

tax benefits, for example, when we are giving something we didn't ask

for, they top slice the budget. Yes to further energy projects.

What about speed limits? It is about community safety and if you look at

What about speed limits? It is about driving it is a part of community

safety. So yes in terms of that but what

else do you want? It is up to the people of Wales but

what I want is clarity. I want to make sure we have proper powers over

energy and it's ridiculous that there is no way we can develop the

energy sector. We don't control the level of subsidies as the Scots do.

There is a better fit to have policing devolved because other

aspects are devolved but we can't just spend our time demanding more

time, even when they wouldn't work for us. No justice is an interesting

idea and massively expensive. We would have to build up expertise.

And many. -- and many. What about response

ability, which is about Silk part one, the financial settlement. Many

would argue that is where the response ability is and you have to

raise and very your own taxes. You are saying no thank you? As far

as tax DC is concerned, yes -- tax duty.

The big one? Wales is underfunded. We know that. Unless underfunding is

sorted out, all income tax powers will do is lock it in because with

we say to the Westminster government we have to have their funding, they

will say raise money yourselves without addressing the major

problem. Three quarters of our budget will come from the rock

around. Has it? Because it suits you at the

moment, doesn't you it? You can always say that London isn't giving

you enough money so the blame game is working.

It doesn't address the problem. All it will do is put us in a position

where people will have to pay more tax for fewer services and I'm not

going to recommend that. Secondly, the model is useless as a power and

all it does is raise money. You can't do it. You can't change things

for the better. What is the point? Not just taking powers that are on

offer without carefully considering what is on offer for the people of

Wales and in terms of income tax, I can't see the benefit for people

here. What about Assembly Members?

More recently members? I think it is difficult unless there are fewer

politicians elsewhere. We have 60 members here, smaller than the

Northern Ireland Assembly. It is true to say that backbenchers worked

exceptionally hard and are there to scrutinise the government. There

should be 80 here, perhaps, but the reality is I don't think the public

want to see more. Fewer councillors. You have got the

Williams Commission looking at fewer councils. Now is the time to reject

politicians. If you increase the numbers, do you

increase the number elected first past the post or do you increase

through proportional representation? That changes the way

this place is organised so it is not a case of effects elsewhere. We have

60 members and it is difficult for backbenchers. A lot of them sit on

three committees a week. Do you need more?

I think we can manage with the 60 we have. I don't think the time is

right. But you would like more and you

don't want to be unpopular by saying it?

If you look at Silk as a package, not confuse the number of Assembly

Members with the powers. I don't want the public in Wales to think if

this place gets more powers it needs more politicians. Looking at Silk is

a passage, are you bashing on Ed Miliband's door, saying, yet this in

the manifesto? I have met him already. He understands he needs to

put in a good already. He understands he needs to

of Wales. Is Silk the blueprint? It is the basis of discussions. Fair

funding is important, let's not take away from that. Each party will of

its package to the electorate next year. You would be disappointed if

Silk was not in the manifesto? Of course not, we have to make sure

there is a decent offer for the people of Wales. Notch has been --

much has been made of tensions, people saying, it was a trap. I said

that first. If you look at what has happened in the Conservative party,

there was openly rebellion. There was an open fight between the

Secretary of State and the leader in Wales, and you will have noticed

since the publication of Silk, a distinct lack of loud voices in the

Labour Party saying it is bad. We have talked about getting extra

powers for this place. People will say, they cannot manage what they

have got. They are making a hash of the powers they have got. Delivery

has been your big mantra during this term. Many would say, you are

delivering but you are delivering the worst education system in terms

of performance in the UK. And a failing health service. Are we?

Let's look at health for example. Roddick comes to cancer, -- when it

comes to cancer, waiting times are far lower than in England. They are

spiralling in England, they are taking money from social services to

put into hell. It is not extra money. If you look at it -- health.

If you look at education, we have a good deal.

If you look at education, we have a good Deal for students. You have got

good statistics on health, but 15,000 people are waiting for them

46 -- more than 36 months for treatment, your target is zero. An

education, just under half of secondary schools in Wales are

adequate or good. You cannot be proud of this. There is more work to

do, we understand that. It is difficult in the second is that we

find it. If you look at education, local authorities control it. Many

are in special measures because of the local government structure we

have. They are too small to be able the local government structure we

to cope. We need to make sure ourselves and local authorities cope

as well. We have put money into flooding, which they did not in

England. If you live in Somerset you probably look at what is happening

in Westminster at 12pm on Wednesday where Wales is ridiculed. Yanukovych

is politics. There is a general election -- that is politics. The

flooding has been dealt with is inept in England. Let's stick to

health and education. Economy, they are not doing as well as we are. We

have to look at education in the round. You say it is the hands of

local authorities, but surely you take some responsibility centrally

about those policies. take some responsibility centrally

have to. But we do not deliver education, that is delivered by

other bodies. We have to make/there is the right structure for education

-- we have to make sure there is the right structure. It is the blame

game again. In Westminster, we hear it all the time, the current

government blames the previous one. Here, you cannot do that because for

the past 15 years, it has been labour. We do not have

electioneering, you are right. You are living your own legacy. And it

is not great. I disagree. If you look at our economy, it is stronger

than any time since devolution. We are doing better than England in

terms of unemployment. It is not a race, but we are. We are doing far

better for young unemployment. We have the biggest inward investment

projects by Pinewood Studios. It is not like the Welsh economy is doing

compared to England, we aren't doing better. -- we are doing better. But

some statistics show that GDP is slipping. They are three years old,

those statistics. You cannot keep blaming other parts of Westminster.

Ella McRae have I a chilly done that? What am saying is. You two

have a chilly done that? What Westminster used figures selectively

to try and illustrate that Wales is doing badly in some areas, which is

true. Comparing it is very difficult. England, there is

true. Comparing it is very of gaming going on in terms of some

figures, particularly health. The National audit office has said that

you cannot trust the figures in England because they are not

accurate, and ours are. On education, it is often said that. On

education, it is often said that you have got the policies there. I you

confident that on health and education, things are turning

around? There is no question in my mind that things are going in the

right direction. It is not easy, it is difficult on health, that takes

45% of the aged. If you increase spending on health the -- of the

budget. If you increase spending on health, the effect is very big on

other departments. We are not prepared to do what they have done

in England, rob the social services put it in health, and you see people

are stuck in hospital because they cannot get home. Back to education,

Pisa is coming, do you sit in your office and think, that is coming? It

is a few years. I sit in my office and look for improvements, of

course. You need to be in this job in a position where you are

constantly looking for improvements. Constantly have a hunger to see

Wales do better. There are areas we have two improved, -- have to

improve, let's not pretend otherwise. We need to make sure we

have the right service provision in health, and difficult decisions have

to be taken into how health is delivered. You cannot deliver it in

the same way it has been delivered in the past 20 years it is going to

be effective, that can be effective. On Pisa, we will do better next

time? We have to, we have to do better. We have to make sure that

schools are taking Pisa as seriously as they should, it is not the only

measure, we also wanted to see an improvement in GCSE results and a

further closing of the gap with the UK. Let's move on to be the biggest

thing which is happening this year, the Scottish referendum. You have

made it clear that you hope they say no. If they say yes, where does that

leave Wales? Well, yes or no, there has to be a fundamental rethink of

the Constitution of Britain. You cannot just carry on as before, we

have to make sure that we have a sustainable settlement in the

future. The worst imaginable outcome would be for there to be, on the one

hand, and no vote, which would be good, but then nothing happens in

terms of further devolution of Scotland, I think

terms of further devolution of dangerous and Scotland would leave

the UK within a decade. There has to be further devolution for Scotland

and a package on the table in the event of a no vote. If it is a yes

vote, the UK cannot carry on as it is. There has to be a thinking of

the cost occasional relationship between the three different patients

to keep the UK together. -- the three different nations. In terms of

scenario planning, we call it the rump UK, are you having chats

behind-the-scenes, saying, Northern Ireland, England, Wales, we should

get together? What is our name? We have not done that. None of that is

going on. In my view I think it will be a no vote in Scotland. I think

you -- it will be closer than be a no vote in Scotland. I think

think. There will have to be change whatever happens. We have to have

constitutional change whatever happens, yes or no, in Scotland. And

Northern Irish minister recently said, we should beget in together

with Wales and England and planning for all eventualities. Is he right?

I do not clear at that stage. I do not see that we we -- I do not think

we are at that stage. I do not think that we will be there. My thought

is, what happens afterwards. If it is a no vote, how come we have a

sustainable constitutional future so we are not closely talking about it?

You know Alex Salmond, he is a wily politician, he could clinch it. He

is, but the detail has been lacking in the yes campaign. They have got

into an awful mess of a currency which they have not sorted out. The

response was from Alex himself, when it was put for him that Scotland

would not be part of sterling, he said, we will not take on the UK's

debts. So they will not ever raise any money because they will default

on their debts. Should they be allowed to keep the pound? They can

keep their own pound, I do not think they should be in a union with

sterling, when there are two different, to two different sets of

budgets feeding into one bank. You either join the euro zone, all you

have your own currency, or you have your own currency. Said George

Osborne is bang on? When Ireland left, they did not suggest they

should use sterling. And they paid their currency to sterling than 50

years. To have one currency run their currency to sterling than 50

two governments is an hurdle. If it is a no vote, and we get something

like Devo Max for Scotland, what you want for Wales? What I would like to

see at a UK level is there is an understanding that the model for

devolution should be the same across the UK. Not the power is necessarily

but the model. There is established mechanisms to make sure powers can

be devolved in the future and there can be bettered communication

between the governments of the UK. At the moment we meet every now and

again but there is no real mechanism for us to meet on a regular basis.

If it is going to be a no vote in Scotland, and then you want Silk,

you better get Silk in the manifesto now. Yes. So you will ask you to get

it in there? I have now. Yes. So you will ask you to get

already. We will consider what our response to be as a party. Clearly

there needs to be a good package of devolution on offer for the people

of Wales. You say now is not the time for scenario planning, when

this the time for the Scottish result? Once we know the results.

The next morning? Will you ring David Cameron and say, what we do

now? It looking to happen overnight. It will take a couple of years -- it

is not going to happen overnight. It will take a couple of years to

negotiate what happens. If the Scots to vote yes in September, they will

not become an independent state in the following week. Back to the

crystal ball we had at the beginning, 10-year time, what is

your visit -- vision for Wales? An ever stronger economy, health

service which is stable, which means we have to change it. An education

which is the best in Europe and above all else, people being

increasingly confident. We love to run ourselves down, perhaps less so

than we have been. The young people are more confident than we were at a

generation. But we are still there with this little germ, saying that

we in Wales cannot be as good as anyone else. Of course we can. I was

in America recently, I saw what we could do in promoting Wells, we have

16, is meant -- we had 16 congressmen signed up to the

supporting Wales caucus. Of course we can be the best, let's stop

believing we can. -- start believing we can. That's it for this week's

programme. Huw Edwards will be back next week, but in the meantime you

can get in touch.