26/02/2014 The Wales Report

Tonight on The Wales Report: Where are we heading on the devolution

journey? How should Wales be governed in the

years to come? We'll be looking ahead to the latest milestone which

affects all of us. Local authority budgets under pressure - we'll be

looking at the implications for Welsh libraries.

And as St David's Day approaches, we'll be talking about modern

notions of national identity. Stay with us for The Wales Report.

Good evening. Welcome to The Wales Report - our chances to look at the

issues affecting lives in Wales and question those making the decisions.

On tonight's programme: The future shape of the United Kingdom is in

the spotlight again. David Cameron took his cabinet to

Aberdeen this week as the debate on Scottish independent intensifies.

And in Wales we're expecting the next stage in our own debate when

the Silk Commission publishes the second part of its recommendations

on how Wales should be governed. But we can't even agree on Silk Part one

and key financial powers, so is there any prospect of consensus on

the next step? Our parliamentary correspondent David Cornock has been

investigating. The shape of the UK is shifting

beneath our feet, and I am not just talking about the floods. In

Aberdeen on Monday you could not move for politicians wanting to talk

independence. Whispers that the union cannot remain as it is when

the Scots stay or go are growing louder and louder. Wales can only

shout from the sidelines in that particular battle, but we do have

our own constitutional issues to grapple with. Next week the SIlk

Commission on devolution is due to publish its second report. It is

looking at areas like justice and whether they will stay here or be

transferred to Cardiff Bay. The UK Government says there is no need for

radical change, so stand by for another row. The first part of the

SIlk Commission is still under scrutiny. It was not meant to be

like this. David Cameron and Nick Clegg came to be Senate with smiling

faces. There was a bipartisan self pitch and it worked for a while. The

four party leaders in the Assembly welcomed the announcement. However,

the Welsh record in areas like health and education started to be

noticed here. If anyone wants to know what will happen to the NHS

under Labour they can look at Wales where they are smashing the NHS

budget and they are seeing more people waiting for longer. That is

what happens when you get a Labour Party running the NHS. Devolution

will always mean tension between Wales and Westminster. The powers

debate has exposed differences between the leaders of the Welsh

Conservatives in Wales and in Westminster. There is a perception

that the Welsh Secretary does not want to acquiesce to be

suggestions. It is not good for the party. The problem for the Welsh

Conservatives is that neither Andrew RT Davies or Andrew Jones believes

the other's job should exist. There is suggestion that the Welsh

Conservatives could come more autonomous, like in Scotland. I have

been covering the Welsh grand committee for 25 years, man and boy.

Earlier this month the Shadow Welsh Secretary break the committee's

underwritten roles and said something newsworthy. Labour

ministers in Cardiff may have described the tax and borrowing

packages as a good deal for Wales. Owen Smith put it slightly

differently. We will not ease seeking income tax varying powers in

the future. We feel there is a trap being laid for Welsh people by the

Conservatives. Where does this leave us? Welsh government ministers could

find themselves in an exclusive club of politicians, turning down the

offer of more powers and then refusing to use them even if they

are given them. Power dashed these days, you can't even give it away.

David Cornock reporting. Joining me now is the chair of the Welsh

Affairs Select Committee at Westminster, the Conservative MP

David Davies. Thank you for joining us. Our more powers needed in

Cardiff or not? Everyone has a slightly different opinion. My view

is no secret. I would not divulge further powers to the Welsh

Assembly. After the last referendum, politicians who wanted those powers

and got them said they had all be tools in the tool box and they just

wanted to get on with things and I wish them every success with that.

Let them get on with things. There is no need to grant further powers

every couple of years, which is what we seem to be doing. Do you think

they are in a position to govern effectively without the powers over

things like income tax? They are. They have been making changes in

health and education without those powers. Those changes have not been

promising. Education is lagging and we have longer waiting lists, but

they have had the powers to do things about it, but they have just

not done anything about it. What are your thoughts on devolving income

tax powers, for example? We said that we would abide by the temp

macro one. -- Silk Commission. I would prefer they did not have

powers over income tax. Clearly lots of people in all of the political

parties have different views. There is no secret that there is a

difference of opinion within the Conservative Party. There are also

differences within the Labour Party. The divisions are clear. Do you

regret the fact that four colleagues were dismissed on this issue? I have

made my views clear. I was surprised that for my colleagues were

dismissed for effectively backing the Conservative Party policy in

London. That was a surprising decision. I have voted against my

own party on occasion in Westminster. I find people are

relatively accepting of that and I thought it would either same in

Cardiff. Do you think Mr Davies is the right man to lead the Welsh

Conservatives in the next election? He remains the leader and that is

fine. Do you think you should be? I do want to see a big row over it. I

hope we can sort things out a little bit more at the meetings that we

will be having shortly. You don't sound very enthusiastic, David. I am

enthusiastic about seeing a strong Conservative group in the Welsh

Assembly and I won't do anything to undermine them. You have an away

because you have not said whether is the right person to lead the party.

No one else is putting their hat into the ring. He is the right

person at the moment. He said he would not support further powers for

the Assembly and he told us all the things we wanted to hear and we were

all very pleased with what he had to say a couple of years ago. Are you

saying he has changed his tune? I am not, but some things are off-kilter

at the moment. When you have a devolved administration and parties

which are represented in Cardiff and Westminster, there are bound to be

tensions. As you have said, they apply to other parties as well, but

in your party they have come to the fore and I wonder why you cannot say

to me that that you think Andrew RT Davies is doing the right thing. I

support the Conservative Party in the Welsh Assembly and I want is to

win more seats. I will do nothing to undermine them and I am aware of the

failures of the NHS. I have children in state schools and use the NHS. I

want what everyone else wants. At the moment, we have not got as good

a system in Wales as we do in England. Finally, what would you say

to the viewers dash do you think the Assembly -- to the viewers? Should

the Assembly just stumble on? We are giving more and more powers to the

Assembly every couple of years without there being any chance of

taking powers away and we are going on a one-way trip towards

independence. I am a unionist. Other people have their opinions and if

they are willing to argue it honestly, let's do it. We are sleep

walking into independence without doing anything about the West

Lothian question. It worries me that we are doing this. Thank you for

talking to us. I will be discussing the latest findings of the Silk

Commission next week. In the coming weeks councils

throughout Wales will finalise budgets that will bring far-reaching

changes to the way public services are delivered. The squeeze is likely

to affect leisure and library provision across Wales, despite a

legal requirement that councils have to provide an efficient and

comprehensive library service. As Helen Callaghan reports, there are

concerns that more needs to be done to save Welsh libraries from the

threat of closure. It is the heartbeat of the community. Without

this place I would not know where to go. It is getting busier. Every week

there seems to be more and more people. We really want to see the

library survive and it went before the lack of effort. We are the sixth

richest country in the world. We should be able to afford a likely

service. Why law, councils must provide communities with a

comprehensive and efficient library service. There are serious concerns

that this is being conferred coxswain -- this is being forgotten.

It is important councils think these things through and don't think it is

a cheap and easy way with no consequence. It will have a huge

impact on people 's lives. There is a link between literacy and

anti-social behaviour and criminality. All of these decisions

have costs. The generations like these have been a focal point for

generations and that -- a focal point for communities and that

remains the same. You can access the Internet for free, take out books

and do courses. It is a hub for the entire community. Some authorities

have invested in libraries rather than cutting them. Libraries still

have a place in the hearts of Welsh people with visitor numbers rising

by 21% in the last ten years. Across the rest of the UK their use has

declined. On a miserable Monday, the library's importance to local people

is plain to see. The local job club is a lifeline for people who cannot

travel to the job centre or those who do not have the Internet. They

make sure I am doing things correctly. I wouldn't be to do this

if the library wasn't here. We have a lot of people here on a Monday

morning. This is the heartbeat of the community. Without this place I

would not know where to go. But in some communities that heartbeat is

becoming fainter and soon may stop altogether. It is expect to that

over 30 libraries will close across Wales following council cuts. In

this area nine are under threat. This library is one aim to the

closure. It is due to shut its doors at the end of March, but local

people are doing everything in their power to make sure it stays open.

Coming to the rescue are two residents who have never run a

library before. They are due to take over on the 1st of April. We don't

want the libraries to close. We have lost so many amenities in the past.

Libraries run by local communities were once a common sight. Wash

miners would pay some of their wages towards their local library. --

Welsh miners. It will be difficult to reach the

standard of the professionals but we will learn and we will come through.

We want to see the library survive. In England it is estimated that

nearly 500 libraries and now run by volunteers, charities or social

enterprises but many argue that has led to a drop in standards. We are

very much for libraries working with people in the community but the

issue here is the replacement of paid professional staff with

volunteers. We have seen what has happened across England. It has led

to a patchwork service. With further budget cuts predicted that there's

more libraries will close and the standards of those are staying open

will fall. Many believe it's up to politicians to police those

providing them and ensure our libraries don't become easy prey for

those balancing the books. When Britain was on its knees at the end

of the war there was still this idea about building a better library

service. Even during those dark periods, it never went backwards.

This is the first time this has happened.

Helen Callaghan reporting. Joining me now is the Culture Minister, John

Griffiths. There was a phrase there that libraries could be easy prey

for those people looking for cats. Do you they -- they fear they are

becoming easy prey? Libraries is a statutory responsibility. We have to

get that message over loud and clear. Together with that, the very

valuable role that libraries play and it's a wide ruled today. It's

about helping people develop information technology skills and

using IT equipment. They are -- there are new usages for libraries

as well as the traditional usages. My role is to worth -- work with

local authorities so that picture is fully understood. I disappointed

that at least 31 libraries are facing the axe? I am disappointed

that threat is hanging over those libraries. We need to look at the

whole picture. Local authorities have different geographical

circumstances, different patterns of delivery. So some of those are

justified? Maybe. Some libraries have low usage. It is because of the

publishing and geography and it can be justified to close library. 30

sounds quite high to me but I know the consultation processes have

shown just what I described earlier, that local communities really do

value they library services and as a result of that consultation

process, some local authorities are looking at these issues again. Can

you say to them, I know you are in a difficult position but it is my view

that in this case you are wrong to close these libraries. Can you do

that? Not easily. I do have powers of information and I can hold an

enquiry and I can remove library services from a local authority. But

that is a last resort. What we want to do is work closely with local

authorities to point out that are new models of delivery and

provision. Co-location for example. Co-location with leisure services

and information stop shops and museum space and community cafes. We

have some really good examples and where we bring services together,

they can be provided more economic view. When we can to the end of this

process, do you hope that most of these 30 when we are talking about

will be saved? I hope so. We are seeing those conversations taking

place as to how those libraries could be saved. Could you offer some

financial support? We have provided ?12 million to 89 libraries. Much of

the co-location has been at -- as a result of that financial help. We

have not got a great thought of resource -- a great deal of resource

available. We face the same difficult financial circumstances

ourselves. Now, how many of many of you feel

like this? # Every day when I wake up I thank

the Lord I'm Welsh. We've been putting that sentiment to

the test. In a special BBC Poll for St David's Day, we asked you to tell

us how you feel about your national identity. Nearly a quarter of you

say you feel more Welsh than British. With just 8% saying they

feel more British than Welsh. But it seems that those polled are more

comfortable with a dual identity, with almost 40% saying they feel

both equally Welsh and British. The author Jon Gower has been to meet

students at St David's College in Cardiff to get a flavour of the

debate on identity there. As Saint Davids day approaches it

seems appropriate to come to a college named after our patron saint

to consider the cognitive issue of British versus Welsh identity. Do

you see yourself as Welsh or British? British. Welsh. More Welsh

than British. Half Welsh and half Somali. I feel more Welsh than

British. What is it about being Welsh that appeals to you? Having a

language you can identify as your own. That is very important to me.

You don't have to speak Welsh to be Welsh. Definitely not. You have to

embrace or culture. If people don't embrace their culture, they just

live in Wales and they are not Welsh. But when they are able to get

involved in all our traditions and our historical aspects, if they can

embrace that and enjoy it, then they are Welsh. Identity can swiftly

turned into nationalism and there are good cones and bad kinds of

that. Once identity comes -- becomes political, it can become a charged

word. I know some Welsh people who very much dislike the idea of being

British. You have to find the right kind of balance for you. You should

not go overboard to the extreme. To be British, is it to be proud of

being British as well? To be British I think involves generally

understanding every aspect of Britain so that involves Scotland,

England, Ireland and Wales. Understanding a mixture of cultures

and embracing that. It is a matter of allegiance, isn't it? It is such

a vibrant culture and not a lot of people expect what we can offer as a

country. The diversity of Wales is key and it is one of the things that

makes Wales, Wales. Wales is steadily becoming more multicultural

and I do feel comfortable here and I know I won't be discriminated

against because I am different. It seems in matters of identity at all

but -- it all boils down to choice and it's a bit like choosing soup in

a restaurant. You either go for the Welsh soup or find out it is all a

kind of minestrone. Jon Gower with students from St

David's College in Cardiff. I'm joined now by the Assembly Member,

Lord Elis Thomas, formerly Presiding Officer at the National Assembly and

a former chair of the Welsh Language Board. That was an interesting set

of voices. I thought they were very intelligent and had a very den Amick

cultural idea of identity. -- a dynamic cultural idea. It is

interesting when you put in -- put it in the context of the latest ABC

poll which suggests the biggest chunk of people in Wales still

consider themselves to be half British and half Welsh. Is that an

odd finding in 2014? I don't think it's odd at all. I don't usually use

the word British myself that the UK has given me a good living. In the

context of the lively debate now in Scotland, on independence, whatever

the result, how is that likely to translate in Wales in terms of

people's notion of Welshness not just in a political context within a

cultural context? It is already making a difference. The whole

debate in Scotland is forcing us to ask, we is England and Wales? The

Scottish government has redefined what being an independent country

means. A lot of the argument now is between the UK government which is

saying you can't have joint currency. In my analysis, Scotland

is not believe the UK. The UK is changing yet again. The whole thing

has been a feature of the Imperial period. Now the Imperial period is

over, the relations between the countries will change. I work in a

building in London where the four countries of the UK at up on the

wall and at the centre and heart of the building. The UK has always been

a multinational state. We started with this idea of Welsh identity and

how it has changed. It is 40 years since you were first elected as an

MP. If Scotland votes yes, what will that mean for politics in Wales? And

what will it mean to the notion of national identity in Wales? The key

thing is that England has got to become a proper European -- European

country and its own right. That is the future. The principality of

Wales was our creation. The nationality of Wales has been in

doubt at different times but for the majority of the people of Wales, it

has never been in doubt. It has been reinvented by devolution. The

diversity and culture and social values, all these things are

essential to our culture of being. That will still grow. The politics

is a bit late catching up with that. That's it for this week's programme.

We'll be back next Wednesday. In the meantime, you can get in touch with

us about the issues discussed tonight, or indeed anything else.

E-mail us at [email protected]. And we are

on Twitter - @thewalesreport. Thanks for watching. Good night. Nos

da.