19/02/2014 The Wales Report


19/02/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 19/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight a special programme as The Wales Report is given exclusive

:00:00.:00:11.

access to Operation Pallial. The investigation into allegations of

:00:12.:00:15.

historic child abuse in North Wales care homes. The man in charge tells

:00:16.:00:20.

us it is far from over. I am confident there will be further

:00:21.:00:25.

charges and further arrest, we will pursue the truth and ensure through

:00:26.:00:31.

the evidence we collect, with put the CPS in the best position to make

:00:32.:00:34.

proper judgment. Stay with us for The Wales Report.

:00:35.:00:45.

Good evening and welcome to a special programme. The Wales Report

:00:46.:00:50.

has been given exclusive behind the scenes access to a major

:00:51.:00:54.

investigation into allegations of historic child abuse, in care homes

:00:55.:00:58.

in North Wales. Operation Pallial is led by the

:00:59.:01:02.

National Crime Agency, and based over the border at its northern

:01:03.:01:06.

headquarters in Warrington. It was set up in November 2012, amid

:01:07.:01:11.

concerns that previous investigations had not been robust

:01:12.:01:14.

or thorough enough. There were concerns too that the voices of

:01:15.:01:18.

those coming forward to report allegations of abuse in the care

:01:19.:01:23.

system had not been heard. The investigation had already

:01:24.:01:26.

resulted in 19 people being arrested, with more expected. 37

:01:27.:01:32.

potential suspects have so far been identified. It is thought at least

:01:33.:01:39.

12 suspects have died. David Williams who has covered the event

:01:40.:01:43.

as they have unfolded over the past 25 years has been behind the scenes

:01:44.:01:47.

with the police to discover the true extent of the allegations.

:01:48.:01:59.

We will start with an investigation update. I am content we are making

:02:00.:02:05.

steady progress in Operation Pallial, we are dealing with 255

:02:06.:02:11.

victims. In terms of suspect inquiry, again, making steady

:02:12.:02:15.

progress, 37 people have been raised to suspect status and from that

:02:16.:02:21.

figure we have made 19 arrests. Ian Mulcahey the man in charge of

:02:22.:02:25.

Operation Pallial, an investigation into historic child abuse in North

:02:26.:02:29.

Wales lists the latest shocking statistics to emerge from an inquiry

:02:30.:02:35.

into what is nothing less than a human tragedy.

:02:36.:02:38.

Offences were committed between the time span of 1953 to 1995. The age

:02:39.:02:46.

range was between 6 and 19. The majority of the victims were boysers

:02:47.:02:50.

although there are a number of girls.

:02:51.:02:53.

-- boys. 37 potential suspects have been

:02:54.:02:58.

identified. Of the 255 people who have come

:02:59.:03:02.

forward, since the investigation was launched, 14 months ago, a great

:03:03.:03:08.

many are new complainant, outlining a catalogue of serious crime and

:03:09.:03:14.

abuse, allegedly committed decades ago, in Local Authority and

:03:15.:03:18.

privately run children's homes in North Wales.

:03:19.:03:22.

28 care homes have been named by complainants.

:03:23.:03:27.

In terms of named... The rolical is staggering. 28 homes are named. --

:03:28.:03:34.

roll call These were places where young vulnerable children were

:03:35.:03:38.

supposed to have been cared for. Instead they are now at the centre

:03:39.:03:42.

of an inquiry into sexual and physical abuse, and inquiry which

:03:43.:03:46.

has taken on a life of its own. And for the time being at least, one

:03:47.:03:54.

in which there is no end in sight. We are dealing with alleged

:03:55.:04:01.

offenders who are responsingable... 19 people have been arrested, one

:04:02.:04:07.

man has been charged, and more arrests and charges against others

:04:08.:04:11.

are expected. I am confident there will be further

:04:12.:04:15.

charges and further arrests. We will pursue the truth, and we will ensure

:04:16.:04:19.

through the evidence we collect, we put the CPS in the best position

:04:20.:04:22.

possible, to make the proper judgments.

:04:23.:04:27.

Over the years in reporting the growing number of complaints of

:04:28.:04:32.

abuse in children's homes in North Wales, I have ended up outside this

:04:33.:04:36.

building. The headquarters of the North Wales

:04:37.:04:40.

Police in Colwyn Bay. It has to be said they weren't happy memories.

:04:41.:04:45.

At the time, rightly or wrongly, there was a perception that the

:04:46.:04:50.

police were hostile and disbelieving of claimants abuse claims.

:04:51.:04:55.

All that, it is said, has changed and frankly it is an attitude that

:04:56.:05:00.

had to. Attempts to try and establish the

:05:01.:05:05.

whole truth have to date all failed. Time and again, over the last 30

:05:06.:05:10.

year, I have heard the same depressing stories from some of

:05:11.:05:15.

those alleging abuse. Nay simply were not listened to, or believed.

:05:16.:05:19.

-- they. At least 13 young people have killed

:05:20.:05:25.

themselves. The damning findings of the first real attempt at an

:05:26.:05:30.

inquiry, the Jillings Report, was suppressed.

:05:31.:05:33.

What should have been the definitive public inquiry, the Waterhouse

:05:34.:05:41.

Tribunal, is itself now subject to another inquiry, the review. In the

:05:42.:05:47.

'80s there were police inquiries, and eight people were eventually

:05:48.:05:51.

convicted of child abuse. But young people continue to tell me that they

:05:52.:05:57.

had no confidence in the north Wale police.

:05:58.:05:59.

Fearful of coming forward when they were children, many waited until

:06:00.:06:03.

they were adults before telling their stories.

:06:04.:06:09.

But they still remember vividly what happened to them Keith Gregory says

:06:10.:06:18.

that he was sexually, and physically abused in homes in England and in

:06:19.:06:22.

Wales. He had a chilling account of his

:06:23.:06:27.

first attempt as a teenager, at the then Bryn Estyn children's home in

:06:28.:06:30.

Wrexham, to bring allegations of abuse to the attention of staff, and

:06:31.:06:36.

police, during a case conference at the home.

:06:37.:06:41.

Before I went into the meeting, I marched into the meeting, sort of

:06:42.:06:46.

thing, there was the police officer standing there, with his arm round

:06:47.:06:51.

one of the people I was accusing, smiling, laughing, joking. Then he

:06:52.:06:55.

said to me I believe you have something to tell me.

:06:56.:07:01.

I couldn't, you know. So did you find that the police weren't

:07:02.:07:05.

prepared to listen do you, or were they hostile or what? Nobody would

:07:06.:07:11.

listen. Nobody wanted to know. We were naughty boys, from when you

:07:12.:07:14.

come out, when I was there, when I come out, for years it has been

:07:15.:07:18.

hushed up. The current chief constable of north

:07:19.:07:23.

Wale police has, from the outset, been at pains to demonstrate his

:07:24.:07:27.

force's full cooperation with the current investigation.

:07:28.:07:31.

-- North Wales. It was Mark Polin who wanted it conducted by an

:07:32.:07:35.

outside force. Why? Because at the time, some

:07:36.:07:41.

victims were indicating that they ad at that point didn't have the

:07:42.:07:46.

confident in the force to carry out a reinvestigation to allegations

:07:47.:07:51.

made some time ago. There was a perception that North Wales Police

:07:52.:07:54.

during this period weren't listening, and sometimes worse, were

:07:55.:07:58.

demonstrating hostility towards those who were coming forward, or

:07:59.:08:02.

who wanted to come forward, what do you say to that? First of all, I

:08:03.:08:09.

wasn't here. Let us be clear, there are few staff in this organisation

:08:10.:08:13.

now, who were here at the time of the investigations, so the

:08:14.:08:15.

organisation has moved on in terms of staff and what it does. It is not

:08:16.:08:21.

therefore for me to comment on prior investigation, because I wasn't

:08:22.:08:25.

party to them, this was about let us make sure we get it right this time,

:08:26.:08:29.

if we have not got it right before, and encourage victims to forward to

:08:30.:08:33.

put everything on the table, as far as we can possibly could, and to

:08:34.:08:37.

ensure there was a thorough comprehensive investigation that was

:08:38.:08:41.

independent and transparent. This is the nerve centre of

:08:42.:08:46.

Operation Pallial, based here at the northern hub of the National Crime

:08:47.:08:52.

Agency, in Warrington, in Cheshire. Geographically located in England,

:08:53.:08:57.

it is at the same time at arms-length from but in close touch

:08:58.:09:00.

with the north Wales police, whose force area is at the epicentre of

:09:01.:09:04.

this inquiry into historic child abuse.

:09:05.:09:08.

We have been given unparalleled access to see for ourselves some of

:09:09.:09:12.

the inner workings of this operation.

:09:13.:09:17.

For the first time since the inquiry was set up in November 2012, the

:09:18.:09:26.

National Crime Agency or NCA, Britain's equivalent of America's

:09:27.:09:32.

FB. It has allowed cameras in to get a snapshot of the complex and

:09:33.:09:36.

delicate work that goes on behind the scene at one of the biggest

:09:37.:09:43.

police inquiries of its kind. In that Pantheon of crimes that you

:09:44.:09:47.

deal with, where does this one it is? It is difficult compare

:09:48.:09:51.

different types of crime so with deal with organise crime, to drug,

:09:52.:09:58.

gun, people trafficking and through child exploitation, it is a broad

:09:59.:10:01.

range, what I would say is be try and work through the detail of that

:10:02.:10:04.

to identify where the real opportunities are to cut crime and

:10:05.:10:09.

keep the public safe, our priority is pursuing criminals. Is That is

:10:10.:10:12.

what you are doing in this operation? Absolutely.

:10:13.:10:18.

Day after day, week after week, month after month, the Pallial team

:10:19.:10:24.

of 26 officers have been following up the stories and allegations from

:10:25.:10:28.

men and women, but mainly men, who have contacted them to outline the

:10:29.:10:33.

abuse they say they suffered while in care in North Wales.

:10:34.:10:40.

Elaine Coult iris the deputy officer in -- Elaine Coulter is the deputy

:10:41.:10:45.

officer in charge of the Pallial operation. We have had an overview

:10:46.:10:49.

of what it is about but this is where it takes place isn't it. Talk

:10:50.:10:52.

us through the kind of processes that go on here. This is the

:10:53.:10:57.

incident room for Operation Pallial. People will contact us by a number

:10:58.:11:04.

of source, whether by telephone, e-mail or other agency, we have an

:11:05.:11:11.

0800 number. A lot of people have not previously reported their

:11:12.:11:14.

allegations to the police. Some had and sometimes it has been

:11:15.:11:18.

investigated so we have to research all that first, this is not the

:11:19.:11:22.

first investigation into the care home abuse, so we have to research

:11:23.:11:27.

the archive material, which is about 260 boxes, held in North Wales, so

:11:28.:11:31.

there is a lot of research to do, so you might get someone who thinks I

:11:32.:11:35.

have give my account to the police, why hasn't that person been arrests?

:11:36.:11:42.

We have to make sure the research round, is that person still alive,

:11:43.:11:47.

how can we trace them? Because some have died? Yes.

:11:48.:11:51.

The majority of those who have come forward, in response to the latest

:11:52.:11:56.

appeal for information are telling their stories, often deeply

:11:57.:12:01.

disturbing story, of abuse, for the first time. Not even members of

:12:02.:12:06.

their own family have heard what officers of Operation Pallial are

:12:07.:12:10.

now being told. It takes a lot for a person to come

:12:11.:12:16.

forward and divulge, the worst time of their life when they should have

:12:17.:12:20.

been a place in care. Do they tell you why they have taken so long to

:12:21.:12:26.

come forward? They do, although there have been previous

:12:27.:12:29.

allegations, they have been asked in the '90s and they might have said

:12:30.:12:33.

no, they might have been in that good place in their life. They

:12:34.:12:38.

haven't wanted to talk about it. As they lives have gone on they have

:12:39.:12:42.

wanted to talk about it. People are getting older and they need to tell

:12:43.:12:47.

their story, I have had people come to me and I ask me how to get in

:12:48.:12:54.

touch with Pallial. I spoke to the Children's Commissioner and they put

:12:55.:12:57.

them forward. There is one old chap I talked to, he just wants to tell

:12:58.:13:02.

his story before he die, he doesn't want anything, he is well-off, all

:13:03.:13:08.

right. He needs to say what happened to

:13:09.:13:15.

To you get any feel, any idea, of how many of those 250 have in any

:13:16.:13:20.

way been wasting your time, or have they not? I don't think anybody has.

:13:21.:13:27.

That is a lot of people. Disturbing though they are, the

:13:28.:13:31.

allegations do not mean the accused are automatically guilty. Neither do

:13:32.:13:37.

the numbers necessarily mean there is an increased chance of

:13:38.:13:43.

conviction. The job of the officers is to collect the evidence. The

:13:44.:13:47.

police and law enforcement let evidence, presented to persecute

:13:48.:13:53.

us, the CPS, they make an objective judgement based on clear guidelines

:13:54.:13:57.

about who should go into a court. The courts decide who is guilty or

:13:58.:14:01.

not guilty. This is the cord and 18 team,

:14:02.:14:06.

otherwise known as the Gold group, which meets regularly at the

:14:07.:14:14.

Warrington offices to discuss the progress of the enquiry. Every

:14:15.:14:22.

agency either directly or indirectly linked is represented. The NCA is

:14:23.:14:27.

represented by their boss, director-general Keith Bristow.

:14:28.:14:30.

There is also a representative of the North Wales police. Social

:14:31.:14:35.

services in North Wales have a joint coordinator. The Crown Prosecution

:14:36.:14:40.

Service, CPS, is represented by the chief prosecutor for Wales. Also is

:14:41.:14:45.

the Children's Commissioner for Wales.

:14:46.:14:50.

Because of the sensitive nature of what they are discussing we have

:14:51.:14:53.

been asked to leave the room but I have had a glimpse of the kind of

:14:54.:14:59.

joined up thinking that goes on. And the attempt to provide necessary

:15:00.:15:03.

support for those who have been willing to come forward and provide

:15:04.:15:08.

harrowing accounts of the abuse they suffered. You can't help but think

:15:09.:15:17.

why wasn't all this done years ago? Perhaps there was a lack of

:15:18.:15:21.

understanding of the impact, and the level of abuse that had occurred. We

:15:22.:15:27.

are much better these days at recognising what we need to do to

:15:28.:15:31.

ensure that we support people where they have suffered abuse, and the

:15:32.:15:39.

impact on their lives, that has been one of the things that has been most

:15:40.:15:43.

hard-hitting for us, is seeing the tragic impact on some peoples lives

:15:44.:15:49.

of this, and some people will never recover and we will have two be

:15:50.:15:52.

there to ensure they have that support for as long as they need it.

:15:53.:15:56.

There is little doubt the level of support for those coming forward has

:15:57.:16:02.

improved dramatically, compared with what wasn't done 20 or 30 years ago.

:16:03.:16:08.

We have discovered a new problem, the counselling sessions offered by

:16:09.:16:14.

Operation Pallial are running into difficulties because those coming

:16:15.:16:18.

forward are being instructed, for legal reasons, not to verbally

:16:19.:16:22.

identify their alleged abusers to their councillors. As a result, some

:16:23.:16:28.

witnesses feel the counselling sessions are pointless, and have

:16:29.:16:31.

decided to withdraw from those sessions. This threatens to leave

:16:32.:16:36.

them, as witnesses to the enquiry, for trouble again.

:16:37.:16:41.

It is good that you managed to chat to somebody who is not part of your

:16:42.:16:47.

family, but we are not allowed to speak about what has happened and we

:16:48.:16:52.

are not allowed to mentioned names of the people who abused us, for

:16:53.:16:56.

legal reasons. Does that inhibit you? It does, it stops you. To go

:16:57.:17:02.

forward you have got to go backwards, get your story out, write

:17:03.:17:09.

three to present day. Every time you mention something they say sorry, we

:17:10.:17:16.

cannot listen to that part. I think that is holding us back a lot.

:17:17.:17:22.

Once again, survivors of abuse have difficulty in unburdening themselves

:17:23.:17:28.

of their past. Hopefully this is a temporary blip, and one that can be

:17:29.:17:33.

rectified. In terms of the investigation, the emphasis now is

:17:34.:17:37.

on the credibility of the allegations, rather than the

:17:38.:17:42.

perceived weakness of the witnesses. And in general terms the man in

:17:43.:17:45.

charge of Britain's crime-fighters is optimistic we are witnessing a

:17:46.:17:50.

change in society's attitude to child abuse.

:17:51.:17:57.

We should recognise society generally in England, Wales, and

:17:58.:18:01.

wider has changed and attitudes towards sexual violence and abuse of

:18:02.:18:04.

conduct has changed and law enforcement, the police, the justice

:18:05.:18:09.

system has changed along the same lines. We take this incredibly

:18:10.:18:14.

seriously, we are sensitive to some of the pressures on victims and

:18:15.:18:17.

complainants and take a more robust approach than a generation ago.

:18:18.:18:25.

There has been a cultural shift, argue animating that they didn't do

:18:26.:18:30.

everything they should have done all those years ago? -- are you

:18:31.:18:37.

admitting. 250 victims coming forward in direct response to your

:18:38.:18:40.

appeal. There are things that with the benefit of hindsight we would

:18:41.:18:45.

all have sought to have done differently. That is about learning.

:18:46.:18:50.

That is deeply regrettable, there are occasions when we cannot be

:18:51.:18:57.

proud of the way in which some allegations have been dealt with

:18:58.:19:00.

historically, but we have learned those lessons, things have

:19:01.:19:04.

improved, the numbers of victims coming forward expressing confidence

:19:05.:19:07.

in the process is a real testament to the journey we have been on.

:19:08.:19:16.

At the outset of the enquiry so Ronald Waterhouse was clear, his

:19:17.:19:22.

tribunal would not act as a court putting individuals on trial, but

:19:23.:19:27.

was intended to establish the extent of the abuse and why it wasn't

:19:28.:19:32.

detected earlier. Of course, historic abuse of

:19:33.:19:35.

children in North Wales has been the subject of an investigation before.

:19:36.:19:40.

At a cost of ?13 million of public money, the Waterhouse Enquiry spent

:19:41.:19:48.

three years gathering evidence and coming up with various

:19:49.:19:49.

recommendations aimed at preventing a recurrence of the abuses of the

:19:50.:19:57.

past. Statement, Mr Secretary Murphy. For

:19:58.:20:03.

those who lives have been chattered, the family of those who

:20:04.:20:11.

have died, we all say sorry. -- been shattered. We are determined this

:20:12.:20:15.

report will lead to a society where young people can be cared for in

:20:16.:20:19.

safety. In some quarters there is a real

:20:20.:20:24.

concern the remit was not wide enough and the enquiry did not go

:20:25.:20:29.

deeply enough into the allegations of abuse. And the way that some of

:20:30.:20:34.

the abused learnt of Waterhouse's interest in them was shocking. They

:20:35.:20:39.

just turned up on my door and expected, which was really bad --

:20:40.:20:45.

unexpected. I haven't told my partner I was with at the time, and

:20:46.:20:50.

the kids were in my house. You had no warning. No, they just came to

:20:51.:20:56.

the door and said we believe you were abused in care. It was bad. But

:20:57.:21:03.

you were able to tell your story to those people concerned? With the

:21:04.:21:09.

Waterhouse Enquiry, all they wanted to know was which staff were abusing

:21:10.:21:18.

you or whatever, we were being stopped on packs. -- pass. I wanted

:21:19.:21:30.

to tell them we were not just being abused on site, people were being

:21:31.:21:34.

taken off site. We were not allowed to mention that. Not to Waterhouse.

:21:35.:21:44.

It was outside their re-met? Yes. We were told you cannot mention

:21:45.:21:51.

anything that happened outside. Despite Keith Gregory's misgivings

:21:52.:21:55.

it did find there was evidence of an paedophile ring operating in Wrexham

:21:56.:22:03.

and Chester. One of the positive results to emerge was the creation

:22:04.:22:06.

of the post of Children's Commissioner for Wales. The current

:22:07.:22:11.

Commissioner sits on the Gold group and was one of those who called for

:22:12.:22:17.

a new enquiry. In fact, he got to, Operation Pallial, and another

:22:18.:22:24.

enquiry into the Waterhouse Enquiry. -- he got two. The second

:22:25.:22:32.

enquiry was called to review and is headed by a High Court judge.

:22:33.:22:39.

When I spoke out, I spoke out when I didn't know there would be Operation

:22:40.:22:44.

Pallial, I didn't know there would be a review into the Waterhouse

:22:45.:22:49.

Enquiry, I just felt very strongly something had to happen, not least

:22:50.:22:53.

because the stories that were beginning to come forward for

:22:54.:22:57.

victims who had held this for 30 years or more, were incredibly

:22:58.:23:04.

powerful. I am really pleased with what has happened since, with the

:23:05.:23:08.

way in which agencies have taken this job so seriously, and my job is

:23:09.:23:12.

to make sure those people have the strength to come forward, get their

:23:13.:23:17.

voices heard, and have everything they want to say listened to.

:23:18.:23:23.

The general consensus is those coming forward are being listened

:23:24.:23:28.

to, but those investigating the latest claims of historic abuse are

:23:29.:23:32.

also conscious of the growing concern about the wisdom of pursuing

:23:33.:23:37.

allegations of abuse which span several decades.

:23:38.:23:43.

With the passage of time that presents particular challenges.

:23:44.:23:46.

Human beings struggle with passage of time to remember exactly what

:23:47.:23:51.

happened, forensic opportunities may have passed but we are pursuing

:23:52.:23:59.

evidence. We follow the evidence, presented to prosecutors and

:24:00.:24:01.

prosecutors make decisions about who should go into the criminal justice

:24:02.:24:06.

system. It has to be remembered Operation

:24:07.:24:10.

Pallial is focused on historic abuse, but the North Wales police

:24:11.:24:15.

are still responsible for investigating any new or current

:24:16.:24:18.

claims, and they know they have to get it right.

:24:19.:24:24.

Never again does North Wales police want to be accused of failing in

:24:25.:24:27.

their response to allegations of child abuse. At some point in the

:24:28.:24:33.

future as Operation Pallial's work draws to an end in North Wales force

:24:34.:24:40.

will once again have to take over all responsibility for investigating

:24:41.:24:44.

any allegations of abuse, whether new or historical. Those who have

:24:45.:24:53.

been child abuse perpetrators need to look over their shoulder for the

:24:54.:24:56.

rest of their lives. We have invested a lot of time and effort in

:24:57.:25:01.

training our staff are fashionably making sure we have the capability

:25:02.:25:05.

to go where we haven't gone before and making sure we are providing the

:25:06.:25:13.

best possible service to victims. For those who were abused the

:25:14.:25:17.

passage of time has not made the crime any more or less serious. It

:25:18.:25:23.

was, and will always be, the same. A time of the world at and betrayal at

:25:24.:25:29.

the hands of adults who were charged with the most fundamental of

:25:30.:25:33.

responsibilities, keeping children in their care safe. Children in our

:25:34.:25:40.

looked after system are much safer than they were in the 70s and 80s,

:25:41.:25:45.

there is no doubt in my mind that is true. We have made huge amount of

:25:46.:25:50.

progress. I am still the Children's Commissioner for Wales who in 2014

:25:51.:25:54.

is saying to the Welsh government we need to make sure that children and

:25:55.:25:57.

young people get their voices heard. I don't say that because it

:25:58.:26:02.

is a nice thing to say, I say that because when children are not

:26:03.:26:06.

listened to all believed, if there are bad things happening to them and

:26:07.:26:10.

people don't respond, that is when you have real problems.

:26:11.:26:18.

There is no definitive timescale on completing Operation Pallial. It

:26:19.:26:22.

will take as long as it takes to complete an investigation which

:26:23.:26:26.

should have been done a long time ago. It wasn't and the scale of the

:26:27.:26:30.

current operation and the response to it is evidence of a failure, and

:26:31.:26:35.

the consequences for hundreds of people is immeasurable. And whatever

:26:36.:26:41.

happens now, those people will never be able to reclaim their childhood.

:26:42.:26:47.

I don't want to be sitting here in ten years like we have been doing

:26:48.:26:52.

for the last ten, 20 years. This time it has got to be right and I

:26:53.:26:57.

hope everybody does their proper job which I think they are doing, to be

:26:58.:27:02.

honest. There are more arrests, enquiries. I hope we get it sorted

:27:03.:27:09.

and we can all move on with our lives.

:27:10.:27:13.

Keith Gregory ending that special report by David Williams. The cost

:27:14.:27:19.

of Operation Pallial has risen to three quarters of ?1 million, paid

:27:20.:27:23.

for by the Home Office. It is expected to rise again as the

:27:24.:27:28.

investigation continues and further arrests are made, with court cases

:27:29.:27:32.

to follow. Please say for those wishing to contact them about

:27:33.:27:35.

historic abuse the door remains very much open -- police. That is it for

:27:36.:27:42.

this week. You Edwards will be back next week. You can get in touch with

:27:43.:27:46.

us about the issues discussed tonight or anything else will stop

:27:47.:27:54.

-- Hugh Edwards. Thank you for watching. Good night.

:27:55.:27:59.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS