14/05/2014 The Wales Report


14/05/2014

With just a week to go before the European elections, Bethan Rhys Roberts chairs a special debate as the main candidates talk about the issues that matter to voters in Wales.


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Transcript


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Tonight, an audience with plenty of questions and a panel of politicians

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who think they have the answers. What does Europe mean to you, to

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Wales? Stay with us for a special debate. Welcome to a special edition

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of Wales Report. There is a week to go until the European elections when

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Wales will choose it for members of the European Parliament. The night,

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we will hear from the lead candidate of the fine main parties. They try

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to win your vote. There are other party standing of course and we will

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hear from them later in the programme. Our audience tonight

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represents a range of political views and many here have yet to

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decide who to back next week. So candidates, this is your chance to

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try to win those votes here and on the sofas at home. To kick off

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tonight, a 30 second pitch from each candidate setting out their party's

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views on Europe. I don't have a whistle but candidates, you have to

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stick to time. So, taking the parties in alphabetical order, let's

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start with Kay Swinburne from the Conservatives.

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The Welsh Conservative manifesto is based on having achieved a stronger

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economy at home, received renewed respect abroad and a promise to

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deliver real change in Europe. Only the Conservatives can change that

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relationship with Europe to deliver growth, jobs and financial

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security. We will give the British people a say in an in-out referendum

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by the end of 2012. Labour and the Liberal Democrats will not give you

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it. Reform, renegotiation... That is it, time is up.

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Thank you. Next is Labour's Derek Vaughan. We know 190,000 jobs in

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Wales depend on trade with the rest of the youth. That European Union.

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We'll will protect those jobs and look for opportunities to announce

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that enhance the number of jobs in Wales. Having negotiated an extra

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?2.1 billion of European structural friends over the next seven years,

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we will work with others to make sure... The butter has gone. I will

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have to cut you off there. Thanks. Next up is the Liberal

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Democrats' Alec Dauncey. Being in Europe means stronger, richer and

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more secure country in an insert in world. We have seen how fragile our

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economy can be and we need to get step into making Europe work. We

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have video the party in the UK that stood up against UKIP and the

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Eurosceptic media. We have the clearest vision of a modern,

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tolerant, progressive Wales that is in Britain and in Europe.

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Thank you. Let's hear now from Plaid Cymru's Jill Evans. This election is

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about who you can trust to put the needs, the hopes of the aspirations

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of Wales first. Plaid Cymru is answerable only to the people of

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Wales, we don't answer to London. In my 15 years in Parliament I have

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always put Wales first when I have acted and voted in the

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Parliamentary. You can trust Plaid Cymru to always do that.

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Thank you. And now it's UKIP's turn and Nathan Gill.

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Maybe ten to second is your chance to have your say on the European

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Union. We have never been asked if we want to be part of this European

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superstate that we're heading towards. We need to take back

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control of our borders. We need to take back control of the lawmaking,

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we know that 75% of laws are made in Brussels by unelected international

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bureaucrats. It is time for us to take back control of our country.

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They have made their pitches. You can join Internet's debate on social

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media. Our questions tonight have been sent in by you the viewers and

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our audience members here too. We've chosen the most popular themes and

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the panellists have not seen them in advance. Our first question tonight

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comes from David Nicholson. The European union started off as an

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economic community to stop wars and hopefully stop wars in Europe. It

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has moved onto a political union. Isn't it time for a referendum so

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the British people can have a say and what sort of Europe they want to

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be part of not be part. Particularly since Scotland be rooting for

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independence, that may be a hawk to hang a referendum on if Scotland

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leaves Britain. You want a referendum? You wanted ASAP? Yes.

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Derek Vaughan. The European Union was formed after the Second World

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War to stop the great powers of Europe going to war again. It was

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always the case that the intended to use economic means for political

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ends. To draw the economies of Europe closer and closer and closer

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together so we never went to war again. Would you give a referendum?

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You are right on that. We have clarified our position. The Labour

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Party is saying is that is further transfer of powers from any member

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state to the European Union, we would have an in-out referendum. So

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not now? Kay Swinburne. That is a historic chance to renegotiate our

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chance in the EU right now. Following the Eurozone crisis we

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have had an opportunity to see things need to change. At the member

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states agree with this. Reform is about to happen. We need to do that

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with the renegotiation as well and we think we can deliver it. We

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definitely need to have a referendum. It has been 40 years and

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none of us on the panel had a vote. But David Cameron has said we will

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get a referendum even if he doesn't renegotiate. We need a referendum by

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the end of 2017 and he has promised that. If we have a Conservative

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government, we will have one. If we don't, it'll be down to other

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parties. The first thing is, in government at the moment, a law has

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been passed to say that there will be a referendum if there is any

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further transfer of powers to Europe. The time for that is not

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now. We have seen how vulnerable an economy can be to shocks, club why

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not now? The Eurozone is in reform. It is not the right moment. It would

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be dangerous to the economy. Jill Evans. It is in Wales's insisted the

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part of the EU. All the statistics show that. It'll help as the build

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our economy, to strengthen it so we can stand on our own two feet. What

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concerns me is that the whole discussion about the referendum now

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has been going on for so long, that is creating uncertainty which will

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damage investment. So isn't the only way to move on to have one? What is

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needed is a lock on Wales 's future in the EU. We haven't had the debate

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on Wales and allow the people of Wales to decide. We haven't scored

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for a referendum that he need to be clear, if that is going to be a

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referendum it should be held sooner rather than later. Nathan Gill. We

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deserve a referendum, we can use this election next week as a

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referendum, if you want to. We have been offered it for years and years.

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We know it isn't going to happen. 2017, Twenty20, whatever. Labour is

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saying if there is renegotiation of further powers, the Lisbon Treaty

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has ratcheted clauses in it. They will be no further powers. The

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Labour Party will not give you a referendum. The gentleman down here

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in the suit. Powers are being transferred all the time. That isn't

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going to be another Maastricht Treaty. It is deceitful saying we

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will have to wait for this treaty. I don't agree. I do want a referendum

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now. How about you? All the main parties say we need to stay in

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Europe but we need to reform. What are three farmers not on the table,

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what will you say then? -- what if the form is not on the table. Angela

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Merkel addressed both houses of parliament and told them they will

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be no reform. You can't reform if you are outside of the European

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Union. Let's go to the lady in the second row. The decisions made in

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Europe affect us because we are part of Europe. We don't need to be in

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the European Union that we are part of Europe. Those decisions, we need

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to be part. We need to get those by stepping out of Europe will not help

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us. Let's go to the lady in the

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background, in the white jumper. If we pull out of Europe would we pull

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out of the European laws as a whole? Let's ask Kay Swinburne. If

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we pull out of Europe and we want to access the single market who will

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have to conform to all of the rules Europe make. There is a real danger

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here that when we talk about in-out, we need to know what we are voting

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in-out about. Those debates will be fully formed by 2017 and people will

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be no -- we'll know what they are voting. There are things that aren't

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within the EU mandate. First, the gentleman in the second back row. I

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think it is false to say that not straining Europe would mean less

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bureaucracy. I think it to mean more. If you need to trade with

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those countries you would have to conform to their rules so it is

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better to be inside. Sometimes you go on about 4.2 million jobs

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depending on tariff free trade. If we were not in the EU, if our

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exported that exporters wanted to exported the other part of Europe,

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they would have to conform to EU rules. 100% of British businesses

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have to comply with ridiculous rules. The Federation of Small

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Businessesd say it is costing small businesses ?124 billion a year. It

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talks about being a trade union and a political union, trade has to be

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political, the political union is the UK, it is how I know I can trade

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with Carlisle and Carrickfergus. Why would anybody in Germany want to

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trade with me if we pulled out of the EU? We trade with America, New

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Zealand, China. I am a lawyer, a lot of lawyers make a lot of money out

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of having special arrangements. You are a brave man! We should not have

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27 different systems. Our jobs trade -- depend on trade with EEF. It is

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ridiculous. One other point is, we are having this discussion about a

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referendum in the UK context, and ignoring what might happen in

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Scotland in September, and what will have to happen in Europe is a

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wholesale change in terms of our membership and where Wales is. If

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Scotland becomes independent, we have to make sure that we are not

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pushed to the sidelines. We are in a trading group where we have some

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political control over the bureaucracy, we get stuck in,

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political control over the have got less than 10%... We send

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any peace to Brussels, ministers to the Council of ministers. We get

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stuck in and we have an influence on the regulations, instead of being

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like Norway, on the outside, following the rules with nobody at

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the table will stop on a referendum, why not give people the choice? You

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always championed referenda, why not? It is built into law, there

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will be a referendum. It would be good if we had one, because we need

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to reach a conclusion I agree. I think we will win it. The three of

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you on the left have cancelled the question, would Plaid Cymru and UKIP

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have danced around it. We'll do provide a referendum? You do not

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have the power to, even if you do get in. Why are you pretending that

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you will? White are you pretending that you care when you cannot even

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offer it anyway? Do you think that the political parties now would be

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talking about immigration and Europe without the fact that UKIP has been

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rising in the polls? We have been banking the drum about this. We are

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forcing the agenda, we do not even have any MPs yet. We want a

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referendum immediately, if the people say no, so be it, but we

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trust your judgement. We want the people of Wales to decide their

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future. It is a UK government that would call a referendum, but what I

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want is an assurance that that debate in Wales would be on the

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benefits or otherwise to Wales, where Wales' future lies within the

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EU or outside it. What if the people in Wales vote differently from the

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people in England? We need to see clearly what the people of Wales

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want. The moment, it is a UK vote. Briefly, I want to go back to the

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audience. About the European elections and a referendum, what we

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are voting next week is for people to go to Brussels to represent Wales

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to the best of their ability. The lady in the front row. European

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money is a lifeline to some of the most formal ball people in Wales,

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what are your thoughts about whether a referendum would put some of those

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people at risk? Can we get a microphone to this gentleman? I am

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fairly relaxed about whether we have a referendum or not, but the way

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that the debate is going, it is extremely England centric, and UKIP

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centric, because of the London media. That would be damaging if a

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referendum were to be held. In that sense, it should not be held at the

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moment, because it would not be fair. Almost all of the media

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attention has been negative to UKIP, but we are still rising in the

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polls. I do not know what you are reading! If UKIP will let me get a

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word in edgeways! There is one thing a referendum cannot do, alter the

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facts of geography. We are always going to be part of Europe. We

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cannot move away from Europe, this is where we are. It is so important

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that we remain part of this large market right on our doorstep, for

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the benefit of so many working people here in Wales. Can we get a

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microphone to the lady in the front? As somebody who was in a

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position to have a say on our relationship in Europe back in 1975,

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what are the party is doing to ensure that the next generation get

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their say over Europe, listening to the panel, it is only the

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Conservatives who are promising that they will renegotiate and they will

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give us a referendum. I voted them for the conservative, as I always

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have. On the referendum, to go in? Yes. In terms of the referendum, it

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is critical we have a say, that people get trusted with that. It is

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automatically down to you, the people of Wales and the UK, to

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decide whether we are in or out, but I will be negotiating hard to make

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sure that the future EU that we vote on will reflect the type of EU that

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generates jobs for us here in Wales, across the UK, and financial

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security for us and in other countries across the EU. There is a

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lot of scope for renegotiation, we do it on each piece of legislation.

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The three of us here who have been there for the last five years have

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helped to do things like reformed the common fisheries policy, we have

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delivered a cut in red tape, there are things that we have done. I am

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proud of these things, leading a cut in red tape and bureaucracy in

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Brussels. We can renegotiate. Let's move to our second question, which

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comes from Laura Murton. If we did vote to leave the EU, given the

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level of EU funding that we benefit from, how would we cope without the

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access to the grants and funding? If you facts. Wales has received 3.5

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billion since 2000, and is set to receive 2 billion in the third block

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of money. You would get rid of all that money, Nathan. No, there is no

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such thing as EU money. It is not rocket science, it does not exist,

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it is our money which has been sent to Brussels, they have creamed off

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the lion 's share and have given us some of it back. Are you saying that

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if we left Europe, Wales would still get that 2 billion from a UK

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government? Absolutely. They would have more money, because we are

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spending ?55 million every day on Brussels, we are getting a small

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fraction back. We would defend and protect the people of Wales and make

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sure they did not lose out by us leaving the EU. In the whole time

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that I have been in the European Parliament, we have had to fight

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against the UK government to get this funding for Wales, because our

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economy is weak because the UK has never had a proper regional policy.

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Wales is underfunded, we know that. I remember a meeting with myself and

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my colleague, we saw the commission in Brussels in 2003 to show that the

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UK was taking the money that should have been coming to Wales. This

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man's party has been spending that money, the Labour Party. Let me read

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you what the First Minister said. This is a once in a generation

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opportunity to transform our economy and make a major difference to the

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lives of people in West Wales and the valleys. Have you done that? We

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have to go shake the money, it was myself and the Welsh government who

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negotiated an extra ?400 million. This money is vital. I go to any

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community in almost any part of Wales and you see large projects,

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childcare facilities... But we still qualify for the money, which proves

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they have not been transformed. We are starting to see the effect. The

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Welsh unemployment rate is the same as the UK's, when did that happen

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last? Youth unemployment in Wales is lower than the rest of the UK. We

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use European funding to fund jobs in Wales, 12,000 opportunities for

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young people. This despite this money, Wales is still one of the

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poorest monies -- areas of Europe. Why do our farmers have to be

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subsidised? They want a fair price for their produce and to have a

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proper business. We have been talking about the big issues, I am

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curious to see what the comment Neds have delivered in terms of tangible

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muscles. -- what the comment Neds. Over the past five years, I am

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curious to what they have been able to do for Welsh companies,

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industry, academic institutions, in terms of them helping to gain access

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to the European funding, the tangible results. A human to go,

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there was going to be a cut, ?400 million, we negotiated with the UK

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government and we have increased it. We will get an increase of ?150

:23:35.:23:44.

million. We have turned it around by ?550 million, extra to be spent on

:23:45.:23:51.

projects in Wales over the next seven years. How many politicians

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and say they have achieved that? Not many. Your party have been in charge

:23:56.:24:03.

for a short period in the assembly, as it been spent all wisely? The

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first round could have been spent better, a lot of people recognise

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that. It has to be spent in a way that has a lasting effect. Wales is

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a net beneficiary if you include the agricultural funding. It is partly

:24:20.:24:24.

because we do not raise as much taxes, but a lot of money throws --

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flows in through a variety of sources. The problem with the UKIP

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mind, there is no road map. It is easy to say we will leave, but the

:24:36.:24:39.

model that we would leave to and how the money would be spent and how

:24:40.:24:42.

much money would come to Wales and by what means, it is not something

:24:43.:24:47.

you can promise. Look at the state of Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain,

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we are all basket cases, and they are in this wonderful union that you

:24:57.:25:03.

love so much. Where are the jobs? Look at the unemployment in the

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Eurozone. We have the jobs. If I can adjust the original question of the

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structural funds and other media funding, or to mentally, there are

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lots of jobs that can be created using this money. It has been a

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shame that the money has not generated economic benefit to date,

:25:24.:25:29.

and with the first ministers have said it could have been spent

:25:30.:25:34.

better. Companies generate jobs, we have to trust our small and

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medium-sized companies to have that money to make sure that they can use

:25:38.:25:41.

their expertise to generate jobs and economic growth. That is where I

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would put the money, and it can happen. The funds are there, we

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dated use them wisely. What have I done to make a difference? I have

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cut red tape for small difference -- for small businesses, I have fought

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for more money in the research budget for Welsh universities, and I

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have been credited with over four region 40 jobs for a financial

:26:08.:26:10.

services firm in North Wales which only came here because I persuaded

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them to do so -- 440 jobs. We are not trusted with funds, because the

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people making the decision cannot risk their reputation. This funding

:26:25.:26:28.

has to be used to look at the strategy, what do we want the Wales

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we want to look like in 2020? You think it is wasted? What industries

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are we going to work in across Europe? That is really essential

:26:41.:26:48.

that is really essential matters by Plaid Cymru is calling on businesses

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in Wales to take the lead in deciding whether funding is spent

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from now on. We need to create the jobs and one of the things I have

:26:56.:26:58.

worked on in Parliament in recent months as in changing the public

:26:59.:27:04.

trick you and legislation. We only give half of our public contracts in

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Wales to Welsh companies. If we put that up to 75%... It is not, it is

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not. I learned give all of their contracts the Irish companies. You

:27:19.:27:25.

don't know the rules. They are not breaking the rules. Let's go to the

:27:26.:27:32.

gentleman over there. Why is it Wales have to go there with a

:27:33.:27:37.

begging bowl for the third time? That is the point I made to Derek

:27:38.:27:44.

Vaughan. There is a consensus in the first round we did not spend the

:27:45.:27:47.

money on projects which we should have. We funded 3000 small projects

:27:48.:27:55.

and did not have the impact. This time the offending 300 and lessons

:27:56.:27:58.

will be learned the next time. Over time, I am hoping the many we are

:27:59.:28:02.

spending will have this economic benefit. But we are poorer relations

:28:03.:28:09.

in Europe. We're going to go for a fourth begging bowl. Look at hers

:28:10.:28:12.

compared with other countries. You keep saying Wales is doing well,

:28:13.:28:17.

we're not doing well. How would you spend it? I would spend it in

:28:18.:28:24.

industry. Getting industries working together. They are just talking, it

:28:25.:28:29.

is just rhetoric. They don't trust the people of the country to vote.

:28:30.:28:38.

If we were out we would have two invest cash and rely on the UK

:28:39.:28:42.

Government. We would not be any better. Vote for a better British

:28:43.:28:50.

government, I would say to that. I have worked for sector groups. We

:28:51.:28:58.

have started thousands of businesses. It did start this is up

:28:59.:29:11.

-- thousands of businesses. Those are the kind of enterprise

:29:12.:29:15.

businesses we need. Many on the panel and in the audience, some of

:29:16.:29:21.

you have mentioned agriculture. There is a supplementary question

:29:22.:29:26.

specifically on agriculture. I wanted to ask, do you think this CAP

:29:27.:29:31.

reform has been a retrograde step and has done nothing to change the

:29:32.:29:41.

competitiveness for farmers? The CAP reform is a journey, it is gradually

:29:42.:29:47.

becoming greener. It is gradually creating the opportunity for

:29:48.:29:49.

environmental benefits to be paid for for farmers. The gradual shift

:29:50.:29:54.

from protection payments we had in the past towards paying farmers to

:29:55.:30:01.

be on the land with the single farm payment is moving in the right

:30:02.:30:06.

direction. It should be devolved. The actual implementation of it to

:30:07.:30:10.

the UK and to Wales. That is not something you talk about in terms of

:30:11.:30:15.

the European Parliament does. That is the right direction of travel.

:30:16.:30:24.

With 9 billion people to feed by 2015, do we need to be concentrating

:30:25.:30:28.

away from food production and more on the environment? Jill Evans on

:30:29.:30:38.

that. I think we recognise the central value of foods production

:30:39.:30:42.

and the central value of agriculture to our economy in Wales. I think

:30:43.:30:47.

they were part of the CAP reform that were good and bad. We

:30:48.:30:53.

negotiated in the interests of Welsh farmers, for instance, the

:30:54.:30:56.

transition period would be longer to help people to adjust. I think the

:30:57.:31:01.

problem is in Wales, we don't have a government that does recognise the

:31:02.:31:06.

value of agriculture and farming to our local communities, to our

:31:07.:31:10.

economy and to food production and to fighting climate change. In the

:31:11.:31:14.

future, as you say, that is going to become more important. You mean a

:31:15.:31:22.

Labour government here? I save the Labour government in Wales. Derek

:31:23.:31:28.

Vaughan, a bit controversial in giving the maximum from direct

:31:29.:31:44.

payments. When we talk about CAP, we have to remember waiters put in

:31:45.:31:50.

place. First of all, it was to stop food shortages. It was to protect

:31:51.:31:55.

the environment. It was to sustain rural communities. It was to provide

:31:56.:32:06.

income for farmers but there has two be looking after the low

:32:07.:32:11.

communities. We have got to sort these things out. Bruno communities

:32:12.:32:17.

or the farmers? They are being hit in the pocket. -- Bruno communities.

:32:18.:32:26.

The CAP reform was not a reform. For the first time, the European

:32:27.:32:29.

Parliament had a joint say and I think many of the French and German

:32:30.:32:34.

politicians really did fear their markets in terms of their farming

:32:35.:32:39.

communities and protected the producer organisations. It has

:32:40.:32:43.

become less market focused. We will fight very hard and my government is

:32:44.:32:48.

fighting hard for a three-year reform committee reviews we get that

:32:49.:32:51.

reform that was missed time round. We need to make sure the end of the

:32:52.:32:57.

milk quotas was a good start but there is a lot more market related

:32:58.:33:04.

reform the farmers and welcoming. I spent the morning in the

:33:05.:33:08.

Monmouthshire market. I have had a lot of discussion this morning.

:33:09.:33:16.

Nathan Gill on this question. They are trying to fight one size to fit

:33:17.:33:22.

all. Europe is very diverse. We have added low grounds and the wet

:33:23.:33:27.

grounds of Scotland. It is just ridiculous. Please tell me what is

:33:28.:33:31.

wrong with a springing back the power and the ability to create the

:33:32.:33:36.

funding for our farmers here in Britain based on what British

:33:37.:33:42.

farmers actually do. Thank you for that. Let's move on to our next

:33:43.:33:57.

question. Do you believe parties like UKIP and Britain First and

:33:58.:34:04.

masking the research agenda by exaggerating fears of immigration?

:34:05.:34:18.

Just make it clear, you picked up on the point of this morning of one of

:34:19.:34:23.

your prominent party members resigning. Making, is the direction

:34:24.:34:30.

of the party going is terrifying her stop it because it is a direct

:34:31.:34:37.

question, let's go straight to Nathan Gill. The media have been

:34:38.:34:44.

trying to say because certain individuals within our party have

:34:45.:34:48.

said racist things we are a racist party. If I was to use the same

:34:49.:34:55.

logic, you are a racist because Jeremy Clarkson said the end word.

:34:56.:34:59.

All BBC employee eyes must be racist. That is stupid. It is

:35:00.:35:08.

ridiculous. The point here is, bad apples you say as a party but this

:35:09.:35:11.

is a rising star according to Nigel Farage. I have never met her. So you

:35:12.:35:22.

are dismissing her? The reality is she is entitled to her views. Nine

:35:23.:35:28.

days before a very important election she has chosen to leave

:35:29.:35:33.

when quite frankly just a few weeks before she is on videos emphasising

:35:34.:35:41.

UKIP's immigration policy. So you are saying she is another bad

:35:42.:35:47.

apple? I have no idea what her intentions are. She has her agenda.

:35:48.:35:57.

Let's move on... She said something about one of the posters, saying it

:35:58.:36:03.

was racist. All of the other parties have joined together to attack UKIP.

:36:04.:36:10.

The leader of the cartel was on Newsnight... Let's move on to the

:36:11.:36:17.

broader point of immigration. We have made the point. Do you think

:36:18.:36:24.

there is to much immigration into Wales? I think the poster we are

:36:25.:36:32.

talking about, sorry, we do need to talk about it, implying they would

:36:33.:36:36.

be millions coming in for our jobs was so ridiculous you could only

:36:37.:36:44.

interpreted as scaremongering. People want to know that immigration

:36:45.:36:53.

needs to be managed. People... Would you put a cap on its? The way you

:36:54.:37:05.

manage a is if the European... We are electing people to go to the

:37:06.:37:11.

parliament there. Any cash at all and is it opened doors to

:37:12.:37:16.

everybody? If we have another country joining we have to manage

:37:17.:37:26.

the entry of the new country. This scaremongering has an ASCII edge to

:37:27.:37:30.

it. Let's start with the gentleman in the back. Elizabeth runs between

:37:31.:37:39.

UKIP and Jeremy Clarkson because UKIP is more and more people. Every

:37:40.:37:49.

time a closet racist falls out of his closet your party says it is

:37:50.:37:58.

just one or two people. I agree with this gentleman. It is not an

:37:59.:38:01.

individual act, it is a common agenda. You can see the posters and

:38:02.:38:09.

leaflets. It is racist. You are making the European election you and

:38:10.:38:15.

us. That you and them. This is just a racist agenda. It is the

:38:16.:38:20.

cleverest, racist party considering... The British public is

:38:21.:38:30.

more intelligent to expose your agenda. It is ridiculous. Your

:38:31.:38:42.

leaflets are distributed by Eastern European people in different parts

:38:43.:38:46.

of Cardiff. They are part of their society. You can no longer demonise

:38:47.:38:50.

them more and more with these posters and leaflets. We have got

:38:51.:38:57.

the least racist immigration policy of any party. All the other

:38:58.:39:03.

parties, they discriminate against people coming in from India, New

:39:04.:39:08.

Zealand, Canada and America regards the have opened the door to Eastern

:39:09.:39:20.

European people. Is your language inflammatory? It is exactly what

:39:21.:39:27.

they have done. I was in Merthyr Tydfil today and they were people

:39:28.:39:30.

there telling as children can't find work. Can I ask you about today's

:39:31.:39:38.

figures on immigration? 4.5 million people in this country who are

:39:39.:39:44.

working and foreign-born. A million of our youth are unemployed. Where

:39:45.:39:50.

is the sense in that? As a party you predicted the doors would be flung

:39:51.:39:53.

open and lows of the variance and Romanians would come in. Only a

:39:54.:40:00.

quarter came in. The prediction was wrong. 20,000 people came in when

:40:01.:40:07.

nine months of that period there were restricted. They predicted

:40:08.:40:16.

50,000 a year. When you are talking about three months, 20,000 came in.

:40:17.:40:23.

But these people were working. Derek Vaughan. Not everyone in UKIP is

:40:24.:40:31.

racist. I would say the views expressed are not just their views

:40:32.:40:35.

expressed by people at the bottom of the party. We have seen comments by

:40:36.:40:40.

Godfrey Bloom. We have another UKIP MEPs saying Muslim communities in

:40:41.:40:49.

the UK should sign a pledge. You go onto Twitter or Facebook and seen

:40:50.:40:56.

the really awful comments. Let's address to the big concerns. One is

:40:57.:41:02.

benefits. When you look at the figures, it is a tiny, tiny

:41:03.:41:07.

percentage of EU migrants who come to the UK. When you go further into

:41:08.:41:13.

the figures come EU migrants have put in 34% more into the UK economy

:41:14.:41:23.

than the takeout. They pay 34% more in taxes than claim benefits. One in

:41:24.:41:29.

seven businesses in the UK are started by a migrants. Immigration

:41:30.:41:34.

has benefited the UK economically. Others would say they can here and

:41:35.:41:42.

take jobs. I will be focusing -- are we focusing on the wrong people? If

:41:43.:41:49.

companies can indicate -- under Cats, those are the people we should

:41:50.:41:56.

be targeting. Let's have new restriction on agency workers. Let's

:41:57.:41:59.

target real people, the rogue employers. When you have been in

:42:00.:42:09.

power and all of the four main parties have been in power, you have

:42:10.:42:14.

not done anything about it, it has all gone on under your watch. Now

:42:15.:42:20.

you say, give me more time to rearrange it again. You cannot have

:42:21.:42:25.

it both ways. The lady with the scarf. I appreciate that you say it

:42:26.:42:32.

is a minority of UKIP candidates who have made inappropriate comments,

:42:33.:42:37.

but as a political party, you are accountable for your members.

:42:38.:42:42.

Secondly, the attempt by some parties to reduce the discussion of

:42:43.:42:48.

Europe down to a single issue, immigration, is reductive and

:42:49.:42:51.

unhelpful. Europe brings massive benefits, even more benefits to

:42:52.:42:57.

Wales, and we need to talk about the wider issues, rather than

:42:58.:42:58.

scaremonger. David Cameron has said he will get

:42:59.:43:10.

the cap down, it is still realistic to get it down into the tens of

:43:11.:43:14.

thousands. This is immigration as a whole. It is immigration from all

:43:15.:43:20.

countries. We have reduced it by a third since we took over in 2010. EU

:43:21.:43:29.

movement happens both ways. We have a large number of people who work

:43:30.:43:34.

across the EU from the UK. We have one of the most mobile workforces,

:43:35.:43:39.

especially within the professional services, that travel across to do

:43:40.:43:43.

their daily work. We have the need for stronger rules on new entrant

:43:44.:43:48.

countries. We have an opportunity to work with our partners to make sure

:43:49.:43:52.

that happens. We were not the only member state who had a large

:43:53.:43:56.

migration of people to work in our country when the new countries

:43:57.:44:01.

joined. Germany have had a larger proportion of movement than we have.

:44:02.:44:05.

We have to work with people to make sure there are stronger rules on new

:44:06.:44:09.

countries, that those who have a weaker economy have different rules

:44:10.:44:14.

for them to transition into the free movement. Free movement of people to

:44:15.:44:18.

work is something I support as opposed to free movement to claim,

:44:19.:44:24.

and that has been stopped. As a party, you want more doctors to come

:44:25.:44:30.

in, you want nurses, you are appealing for more immigration. We

:44:31.:44:35.

need them, we have 1000 fewer doctors per head in Wales than they

:44:36.:44:43.

do in England. There is concern about migration, it is based on the

:44:44.:44:48.

fear that has been created, it is not based on the evidence. Younger

:44:49.:44:58.

people come to work in Wales. Any cap? It is about communities in

:44:59.:45:05.

Wales, there are groups all over campaigning against local government

:45:06.:45:10.

plans because councils want to build thousands of new houses not based on

:45:11.:45:14.

local need. That is a real issue. There was a referendum recently. No

:45:15.:45:21.

cap at all, the more, the better? There is no evidence that migration

:45:22.:45:26.

has a different effect on our economy or communities, and while

:45:27.:45:31.

that is the case, no. Let's go to the audience. One of my concerns is

:45:32.:45:39.

that the sensationalist language used by UKIP to cover their

:45:40.:45:45.

frightening xenophobic agenda, the candidate here branded half of

:45:46.:45:52.

Europe as basket cases, it has... You said basket cases. Could you let

:45:53.:45:59.

me finish? It has distracted the argument of this whole election

:46:00.:46:03.

process and made it very UKIP centric. To the other candidates,

:46:04.:46:09.

does that worry too? The gentleman here. It is good to hear some common

:46:10.:46:14.

sense from the majority of the panel. If you look at immigration,

:46:15.:46:23.

it does not have any negative effects on Wales, it is beneficial

:46:24.:46:29.

on the whole for the UK economy. If you look at European funding, it is

:46:30.:46:34.

beneficial for Wales, if you look at the growing trade and export for

:46:35.:46:41.

Wales, it is beneficial. It is a right wing media that would rather

:46:42.:46:45.

throw up smoke and mirrors, debate about a referendum and immigration,

:46:46.:46:49.

let's address the real issues, there is a systemic failure. There is no

:46:50.:46:57.

doubt that immigration, Europe, it is a big concern and at the top of

:46:58.:47:02.

the agenda of so many people in this country. We need a referendum, but

:47:03.:47:09.

we need the facts to be properly put across, we do not want

:47:10.:47:13.

newspapers... We want a referendum on Europe. My question to the Labour

:47:14.:47:20.

candidate, why would you deny the people of Britain in this society a

:47:21.:47:29.

vote? We seem to have forgotten that Wales was developed largely through

:47:30.:47:34.

migration, from other parts of this country and from other countries.

:47:35.:47:39.

Around the 1900, 2000 Spanish people were living here, people were

:47:40.:47:45.

concerned they were taking jobs, speaking Spanish, but today, those

:47:46.:47:51.

families are integrated, doesn't the panel think that is what will happen

:47:52.:47:59.

to the newly arrived people now? What the gentleman said about people

:48:00.:48:01.

being concerned, there is another concern. Many of us know EU

:48:02.:48:09.

migrants, many of us have family members who have retired to Spain or

:48:10.:48:14.

whatever, EU migration is going on all the time, it is enriching to

:48:15.:48:20.

lots of people. Have none of you had somebody who is an EU migrant who

:48:21.:48:24.

has received one of these leaflets and started to think what is going

:48:25.:48:31.

on? We could go on, but thank you, we will leave the topic. There are

:48:32.:48:37.

other parties taking part in this election, so let's hear from them

:48:38.:48:43.

now, again in alphabetical order. We are standing for one reason only,

:48:44.:48:48.

to highlight the fact that the British people are going to be a

:48:49.:48:51.

minority in their own country within a few short decades. No other

:48:52.:48:56.

political party is talking or mentioning this issue whatsoever. It

:48:57.:49:02.

is paramount, it supersedes the other political issues, we are going

:49:03.:49:07.

to be a minority, we are standing in Scotland and Wales occurs we want to

:49:08.:49:12.

put this across to the British people and to use this opportunity

:49:13.:49:16.

and platform to inform them of this horrible future. The reason you

:49:17.:49:22.

should vote for us in this election is we will take Britain out of the

:49:23.:49:27.

European Union. We will not ask for a referendum, we will just say we

:49:28.:49:32.

are pulling out, because we are in there or unlawfully anyway. We will

:49:33.:49:39.

ban the burqa. It is offensive, the majority of Britain do not want

:49:40.:49:41.

them, but we are told we have to accept them. We will not accept

:49:42.:49:46.

them, we will provide British jobs for British workers are fair

:49:47.:49:50.

treatment for animals, we will deal with how well slaughter of animals,

:49:51.:49:57.

we will preserve the identity of the indigenous population of this land,

:49:58.:50:06.

and we will. Immigration. -- we will stop immigration. We will rebuild

:50:07.:50:14.

the country and get back to the infrastructure we need. You have

:50:15.:50:16.

heard fine talk from the other parties, but no fine action. Only we

:50:17.:50:21.

have the strength and courage to tackle the most pressing needs of

:50:22.:50:27.

our generation, climate change, the corporate takeover of democracy, the

:50:28.:50:32.

rights of women. We are part of the fourth-largest group in the European

:50:33.:50:36.

Parliament, the Tories of faith. With us, you get permanent lower

:50:37.:50:43.

fuel bills, positive action against climate change and action on

:50:44.:50:46.

equality. When people hear about our policies, ringing railways back into

:50:47.:50:51.

public hands, turning the minimum wage into a living wage, they vote

:50:52.:50:57.

for us. No to EU, just to workers' writes, the EU is an anti-democratic

:50:58.:51:04.

big business club, the power does not lie with this farce of a

:51:05.:51:08.

European Parliament, it lies with the unelected commission in

:51:09.:51:13.

Brussels, and with the unaccountable European Central Bank in Frankfurt,

:51:14.:51:18.

who, with the IMF, are enforcing these disastrous austerity and

:51:19.:51:22.

privatisation policies across the EU. They are making ordinary people

:51:23.:51:28.

pay the price for bailing out the bankers who caused the financial

:51:29.:51:34.

crash in the first place. Then, we have a series of disastrous

:51:35.:51:38.

decisions from the European Court of Justice, which have undermined

:51:39.:51:42.

people's terms and conditions and trade union agreements at work. We

:51:43.:51:48.

oppose the EU very much from the left. In this election, we are the

:51:49.:51:56.

only party which is both opposing the EU free-market privatisation and

:51:57.:52:03.

austerity genders and which is calling for Britain's immediate

:52:04.:52:08.

withdrawal from the EU. The EU has undermined and sought to replace our

:52:09.:52:13.

democracy and has dictated policies that have led to mass unemployment.

:52:14.:52:18.

Other parties will carry on the EU's austerity agenda. Only we are

:52:19.:52:25.

committed to bringing prosperity to communities across Wales. Central to

:52:26.:52:31.

doing this is investing in the jobs and public services needed to meet

:52:32.:52:33.

the requirements of the people of Wales. In or out of Europe. Matter,

:52:34.:52:39.

but we are looking for is a real change, not the kind of change that

:52:40.:52:45.

puts a different set of leaders in terms of the system, it is a system

:52:46.:52:50.

ruled by money and profit, and it causes massive insecurity, pitting

:52:51.:52:52.

people against each other, and bringing gross inequality. We stand

:52:53.:52:58.

for the kind of change that in Wales, Europe and the world calls

:52:59.:53:03.

upon people to opt for a free access to society without money or wages,

:53:04.:53:11.

based on democratic cooperation, it uses our resources rationally to

:53:12.:53:15.

feed, clothes, how's and give a decent secure life to everyone. It

:53:16.:53:20.

is not a utopia, it is a tangible prospect, and more and more people

:53:21.:53:25.

are seeing that. The other parties standing in this election.

:53:26.:53:31.

The next question, from Jonathan Kirkup. People are confused about

:53:32.:53:35.

who MEPs are and what they do. What are you doing? You have been in

:53:36.:53:47.

Brussels and Strasbourg for 15 years, what do you do? I am not

:53:48.:53:55.

surprised by what you say, because everybody would agree that we go

:53:56.:53:59.

around the country and people do not know how the Neds function within

:54:00.:54:10.

the European Union. That is despite having a website, we have a DVD of a

:54:11.:54:17.

week in the life of a MEP, but there is not enough attention given to it

:54:18.:54:22.

in the media. What do you do? When I was first elected, there was a

:54:23.:54:28.

full-time BBC Wales reporter, we got a lot of coverage about how those

:54:29.:54:34.

issues affected Wales. I would be willing to make myself available

:54:35.:54:39.

every week. Tell us, is it plenary sessions? The imagery of politicians

:54:40.:54:45.

travelling a lot, building up the air miles, what do you do? There is

:54:46.:54:52.

plenty of material that could be used to show what we do, the

:54:53.:54:58.

debates, and how it affects Wales. We can indicate with different

:54:59.:55:01.

organisations, schools, colleges send groups over. What do you do? We

:55:02.:55:11.

legislate. We are far more important than we ever were pre-Lisbon. We

:55:12.:55:16.

were told the Lisbon Treaty did not matter, but it made a huge

:55:17.:55:20.

difference, we are now elected to co-legislate, we amend legislation

:55:21.:55:28.

to make sure it represents what works in a proportionate way for

:55:29.:55:32.

Wales and the UK. Financial services was my area of expertise before I

:55:33.:55:38.

went to Parliament, so I have worked on the Eurozone crisis and on the

:55:39.:55:42.

financial services reform. That is what I have spent five years doing.

:55:43.:55:49.

We have to get everybody in. We are there Monday to Thursday, but when

:55:50.:55:54.

we come back on a Friday, Saturday and, sometimes, Sunday, we are

:55:55.:56:01.

travelling Wales, we are meeting organisations, we need a huge out of

:56:02.:56:05.

people, but it is difficult to get around Wales on your own, we are

:56:06.:56:10.

doing our best, we would like more help from the BDO and other

:56:11.:56:15.

organisations. Why do you want to be an NEP? It makes a difference. If

:56:16.:56:20.

you have got a pothole in the street, you complain about it. If

:56:21.:56:27.

the lorries that drive along those roads crossing borders are not safe

:56:28.:56:34.

for cyclists and pedestrians, it is not quite so clear in your mind, but

:56:35.:56:37.

it is desperately important, it can have tragic consequences. We have

:56:38.:56:44.

got three MEPs here, listening to their XP want to join them, because

:56:45.:56:48.

they are getting stuck into making the EU work, and that is what the

:56:49.:56:53.

job is. This election is about European issues. You want to abolish

:56:54.:57:00.

the institution? Absolutely. Do research yourselves. To not just

:57:01.:57:06.

listen to them. Find out for yourselves.

:57:07.:57:13.

The third best performing British two is a UKIP two. The commissioners

:57:14.:57:25.

make the rules, and watch how they vote, like that, nonstop. Nigel

:57:26.:57:36.

Farage's record is better than the other leaders. I would like to see

:57:37.:57:42.

UKIP come up with a policy that benefits Wales. What legislation

:57:43.:57:50.

have you made for the benefit of Wales? That you have enacted? We

:57:51.:58:01.

could go on. Our time is up, thank you to the panel. That is it, thank

:58:02.:58:07.

you to the panel and to the audience for a very lively hour. A full list

:58:08.:58:11.

of the parties and candidates standing next week is available

:58:12.:58:16.

online, you can go to the website. That is it for this week, let us

:58:17.:58:22.

know what you think about the issues raised tonight or anything else, you

:58:23.:58:29.

can e-mail us. You can join in the debate on social media. Huw Edwards

:58:30.:58:38.

is back next Wednesday. Until then, thank you for watching. Good night.

:58:39.:58:43.

On The Wales Report - with a week to go to the European elections, we hear from the main candidates about the issues that matter to voters in Wales. Join Bethan Rhys Roberts for a special debate programme.


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