21/09/2014 The Wales Report


21/09/2014

The votes have been counted and Scotland has decided. But what will the result of the Scottish Independence Referendum mean for Wales?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The Scottish referendum is over and the big question has finally

:00:15.:00:16.

But what does that mean for devolution in the UK?

:00:17.:00:20.

Here in Wales, there are many questions that will affect all

:00:21.:00:22.

Tonight we are looking to Wales?s future with a selected audience,

:00:23.:00:27.

who have questions for our panel of political leaders.

:00:28.:00:29.

Stay with us for some answers on a special Wales Report.

:00:30.:00:37.

Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of the Wales Report.

:00:38.:00:42.

It?s been a momentous week ? Scotland has cast its vote

:00:43.:00:44.

The First Minister, Alex Salmond, has resigned as negotiations with

:00:45.:00:49.

But despite the No vote, it seems the status quo will not survive.

:00:50.:00:53.

Further devolution is on the cards for Scotland, for Wales

:00:54.:00:56.

So, change is coming but what does all

:00:57.:00:59.

Well, tonight?s audience is made up of people who work in Welsh public

:01:00.:01:04.

life ? in healthcare, education, those who deliver your local

:01:05.:01:07.

services and they want answers from our panel of leading politicians.

:01:08.:01:09.

With us tonight is the Welsh Government Finance Minister,

:01:10.:01:11.

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies.

:01:12.:01:14.

Kirsty Williams is the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Leanne

:01:15.:01:18.

Before we kick off tonight?s debate ? remember you too can have

:01:19.:01:32.

your say on social media using the hashtag - #thewalesreport.

:01:33.:01:34.

Our first question tonight is from Jessica Blair from

:01:35.:01:37.

I think this is the one and only goal we should be focusing on.

:01:38.:02:40.

Economic reform is needed. That package of economic members has to

:02:41.:02:46.

be correct and write for Wales. So that our democracy can use those

:02:47.:02:50.

powers to increase our economic performance and prosperity across

:02:51.:02:54.

Wales. I think the decision about reserve powers has already been

:02:55.:02:57.

taken by the court. Irrespective of where I sit on the

:02:58.:03:07.

legislation referred on the decision made, we will have a referred powers

:03:08.:03:11.

model, I have no doubt about it. Obviously it is time to get the

:03:12.:03:15.

measures in place and pass the necessary, regulations, legislation

:03:16.:03:19.

to allow it to be conferred back to the acceptably. Under the powers it

:03:20.:03:23.

is what Scotland has already. It clears it up and makes sure everyone

:03:24.:03:27.

knows where the responsibility lies. Kirsty Williams, what powers should

:03:28.:03:32.

be coming to Wales Like you, Jess, I think we have to have something that

:03:33.:03:36.

is clear and permanent. I think it is time to stop tinkering and

:03:37.:03:39.

constantly going back to this issue every few years. We need a permanent

:03:40.:03:45.

settlement that allows the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government to get

:03:46.:03:48.

on with delivering decent public services to Wales. To do, that we

:03:49.:03:51.

have to have some form of fiscal devolution. The ability for the

:03:52.:03:56.

Welsh Government to raise a sum of the expenditure that then goes it

:03:57.:04:01.

then goes on to spend on public services. I think that leaves to

:04:02.:04:06.

increasing accountability but gives us the tools that if we reap it

:04:07.:04:13.

back, that money goes to Wales, rather than handing it back to

:04:14.:04:16.

London and then begging to London. We should have clear recommendation

:04:17.:04:21.

abouts policing, youth justice, energy consensus, I think those

:04:22.:04:24.

things should be decided by the Welsh Government and scrutinised by

:04:25.:04:28.

the Welsh Assembly. We will be talking about a commission, part 1

:04:29.:04:33.

talking about financial powers, part 2, talking about extra powers like

:04:34.:04:38.

youth justice and policing and extra Assembly Members. Let's go to you.

:04:39.:04:42.

What powers does Wales need? If I can start by saying I spent sometime

:04:43.:04:45.

in Scotland during the referendum campaign. What is very different

:04:46.:04:48.

about the debate we are having here in Wales about the kind of powers

:04:49.:04:54.

that we want, its very technical, it is jargon, it's boring, to be honest

:04:55.:05:02.

with you H it contrasts very -- to. To be honest with you, and could

:05:03.:05:05.

contrasts with the debate people have been having in Scotland and why

:05:06.:05:09.

they want independence, so they can have a different kind of politics.

:05:10.:05:13.

For me the starting point should be about looking at the problems we

:05:14.:05:16.

have and what powers we need to be able to solve the problems. What do

:05:17.:05:21.

we need? Well, if we take that starting point, we know there are

:05:22.:05:24.

many people struggling in Wales at the moment to make ends meet.

:05:25.:05:27.

Austerity is pushing people towards food banks. We have already had -

:05:28.:05:33.

this weekend, news of somebody dying in an ambulance, because there isn't

:05:34.:05:37.

enough money, frankly, in the NHS. Now, we can either carry on like

:05:38.:05:41.

this, year-on-year, with the gap between what we need to provide and

:05:42.:05:46.

the money we get growing, because of this austerity agenda from the

:05:47.:05:52.

Westminster establishment. Or we can think long term about the kind of

:05:53.:05:58.

infrastructure we would need to be able to properly fund. Is that what

:05:59.:06:04.

you need more handouts and grants? No, I need to get to the point where

:06:05.:06:09.

we can stand on our own two feet. Part of the debate in Scotland was

:06:10.:06:12.

about the future of the NHS. And while the NHS and health is

:06:13.:06:15.

devolved, it is true to say, that the financing of the NHS is not. And

:06:16.:06:19.

if privatisation and patient charging and austerity continues in

:06:20.:06:24.

England, there will be a knock-on effect, through the Barnett Formula

:06:25.:06:28.

on the amount we have to spend in-house. These are the questions we

:06:29.:06:32.

should be debating, not the technicalities we have had so far.

:06:33.:06:35.

Right, you are in power in the Assembly. What powers are you

:06:36.:06:37.

desperate for as a Government? is the vision? What do you want it

:06:38.:06:42.

make Wales work? -- to is the vision? What do you want it

:06:43.:06:47.

work. We have a strong call, supported by all parties

:06:48.:06:51.

work. We have a strong call, affected in the Silk Commission,

:06:52.:06:52.

one, in terms of financial affected in the Silk Commission,

:06:53.:06:59.

which we all said today that we need but

:07:00.:06:59.

which we all said today that we need is about making the decisions

:07:00.:07:06.

which we all said today that we need decisions made in Wales. We clearly

:07:07.:07:08.

nooe need a settlement in terms of our financial powers. I have to say

:07:09.:07:12.

what is important is we come through our financial powers. I have to say

:07:13.:07:15.

the post-Scotland referendum debate stronger, as a nation, in Wales,

:07:16.:07:19.

that we come through this saying - you know, we already have done a lot

:07:20.:07:22.

of work, we have you know, we already have done a lot

:07:23.:07:26.

result of devolution. Let's make sure that we have the powers - and

:07:27.:07:31.

it is the power to improve the prospects for our young people.

:07:32.:07:35.

Well, with respect, which powers do you need? Do you want income tax

:07:36.:07:40.

with no shackles? Would you, as in charge of finances here, would you

:07:41.:07:44.

love to be controlling income tax in Wales? Would that make a difference?

:07:45.:07:48.

? Clearly we are progressing through Westminster, a very important piece

:07:49.:07:53.

of legislation as Andrew has said, a very important piece of legislation

:07:54.:07:56.

which is actually going to start devolving taxes from... You want

:07:57.:07:58.

that. devolving taxes from... You want

:07:59.:08:36.

get fair funding, if we get a referendum in the Silk Commission.

:08:37.:08:37.

You would rather not referendum in the Silk Commission.

:08:38.:08:41.

know the tax base in Wales isn't great. There are

:08:42.:08:46.

know the tax base in Wales isn't of risks in terms of tax devolution.

:08:47.:08:47.

We have already taken of risks in terms of tax devolution.

:08:48.:08:50.

tax... You don't want it. of risks in terms of tax devolution.

:08:51.:08:56.

fair funding f we don't, then, of course, 75% of our money for Wales

:08:57.:08:58.

would still course, 75% of our money for Wales

:08:59.:09:01.

fair at the moment. Of course we will move on. With respect... If we

:09:02.:09:07.

get funding. This is why people are switched off by the debate. I'm

:09:08.:09:11.

asking you, do you want income tax or not. You are in charge of Wales's

:09:12.:09:16.

asking you, do you want income tax finances, you are the woman with

:09:17.:09:18.

your finger on the pulse, do you want income tax? Can I say... Yes or

:09:19.:09:24.

no. If we don't get a better financial settlement, we will be

:09:25.:09:27.

disadvantaged by having income tax-raising powers. It is too risky

:09:28.:09:32.

at the moment. If we do, then, of course as the people of Wales, they

:09:33.:09:35.

will then have their say in a referendum, which is what it

:09:36.:09:37.

will then have their say in a be. A few comments from the back

:09:38.:09:39.

row. be. A few comments from the back

:09:40.:09:42.

On health matters and I know we are moving on to finance but if the call

:09:43.:09:45.

is for more powers for Wales but you using the powers you already

:09:46.:09:50.

have? We have a public health bill working its way through the Assembly

:09:51.:09:51.

at the moment which had working its way through the Assembly

:09:52.:09:55.

ambitions at the start, health in all policies and it is being diluted

:09:56.:09:59.

down. You have a real opportunity with the powers you

:10:00.:10:00.

down. You have a real opportunity some legislation that will really

:10:01.:10:02.

make a difference to some legislation that will really

:10:03.:10:05.

Wales, both in health and otherwise and you seem shy to use the powers

:10:06.:10:09.

you have currently got. Why do you need more? Andrew RT Davies? It is a

:10:10.:10:15.

good point. We have a backs et of responsibilities and powers and

:10:16.:10:18.

legislative compassities transferred over the last 15 years. As I said,

:10:19.:10:23.

the beall and end all for me is making sure the financial settlement

:10:24.:10:26.

is krevenlingt the financial settlement is a settlement that will

:10:27.:10:31.

give us economic prosperity and by doing that, you remain competitive

:10:32.:10:36.

and that's about lowering tax. I think there is a moment here where

:10:37.:10:40.

we could put together a package that will last, rather than make do and

:10:41.:10:45.

mend, the approach we have had over the last 15 years. It is mentioned

:10:46.:10:48.

already the tax powers that are before Parliament are still subject

:10:49.:10:51.

to a referendum. We hear England will get extra devolution, not

:10:52.:10:54.

subject to a referendum, subject to a vote in a general election. Why

:10:55.:10:59.

does Wales constantly have to be... Second class. Puts its ambitions

:11:00.:11:06.

before constant barriers and referendums. Have a conversation,

:11:07.:11:09.

come up with something that lasts and vote on it in an election, not

:11:10.:11:14.

consfantly forcing us to go through referenda.

:11:15.:11:17.

Are we getting the leadership 234 Wales? The referendum is on the

:11:18.:11:22.

table for the powers devolved to Wales? Why do we have to go through

:11:23.:11:26.

that process, given the fact that the powers for Scotland and England

:11:27.:11:29.

are more advanced and not subject to a referendum. It seems the game has

:11:30.:11:33.

changed since the powers were outlined. It will be interesting to

:11:34.:11:36.

see if we have changed with it. It is important that we put on record

:11:37.:11:41.

tonight that we are ?300 million under-funded in Wales and everyone

:11:42.:11:44.

recognised. Jerry hull ton did an important piece of work which the

:11:45.:11:48.

Welsh Government asked him to do. Independently, he said, "You are

:11:49.:11:54.

underfunded ""Unless we deal with that under-funding and make sure

:11:55.:11:57.

tlat Westminster Government - and I think we would all agree here

:11:58.:12:00.

tonight, all parties - we need to get that addressed. We need to get

:12:01.:12:05.

that ?350 million, and put a floor on Barnett. I'm sorry, we have to

:12:06.:12:09.

say that now because it is quite true, as Richard said, we have to

:12:10.:12:14.

use the powers we have. This is crumbs off the table. Would you

:12:15.:12:18.

accept the basic central principle that we should be equal to Scotland

:12:19.:12:21.

in this? There should be nothing that comes to Wales that is below

:12:22.:12:25.

what is being offered to Scot snrand give some leadership on this now. I

:12:26.:12:30.

know the leader isn't here today. -- Scotland.

:12:31.:12:33.

This is the third panel debate we have taken part in, as party

:12:34.:12:37.

leaders, and we haven't had the opportunity to hear from... Show

:12:38.:12:42.

some leadership. It is essential, isn't t Leanne that we get the

:12:43.:12:45.

change that Westminster accepts that Wales has to have the devolution.

:12:46.:12:49.

You couldn't deliver that. Can you just respond on this, because there

:12:50.:12:53.

has been a lot of questions. Carwyn Jones hasn't been on any of these

:12:54.:12:57.

panels, if you want to address that point? I'm the Finance Minister for

:12:58.:13:03.

Wales responsible for making sure we take through these particular

:13:04.:13:08.

powers. It is very important, the quality. Don't let's use this

:13:09.:13:12.

opportunity, Leanne, I would say, to divide. Let us show and I think

:13:13.:13:16.

Kirsty Williams has said this on all the panels, let's show where we are

:13:17.:13:20.

united in Wales. Outside of Wales they will not listen to us unless

:13:21.:13:24.

they see Wales is speaking with a united voice. And people know what

:13:25.:13:27.

the Welsh want. That's the point. And we have no clarity on that.

:13:28.:13:33.

Let's hear from the panel what they think. Let's hear from Kirsty

:13:34.:13:38.

Williams. I think we are not going to get anywhere if we cannot provide

:13:39.:13:45.

that strong, clear leadership and that strong clear - ask Westminster

:13:46.:13:49.

at this crucial time. We have seen the debate being dominated about

:13:50.:13:52.

what is going to happen in Scotland and England and Wales is being

:13:53.:13:55.

pushed to the sidelines again. We have a responsibility amongst all

:13:56.:13:59.

the political leadership and civic leadership to speak as much as we

:14:00.:14:03.

can with one clear voice about what we want out of Whitehall and

:14:04.:14:05.

Westminster. If we think that they are sitting up there in London

:14:06.:14:10.

thinking - yes, we'll hand it all over to Wales, then we are kidding

:14:11.:14:15.

ourselves. We have to find a way forward, otherwise we will be pushed

:14:16.:14:21.

to the margins. We will get crumbs off the table. A vow has been made

:14:22.:14:34.

that Scotland will get this from David Cameron, and he has chucked

:14:35.:14:38.

England into it. You can see in the papers it is all about Scotland and

:14:39.:14:44.

Wales, Scotland is being forgotten. On the remarks the Prime Minister

:14:45.:14:47.

made on Friday morning, he included every part of the Union needing a

:14:48.:14:53.

firm settlement, talking about what we need is to be constitutionally

:14:54.:14:58.

durable. He moved on to the general election, the main thing was

:14:59.:15:01.

attacking Labour. In fairness, it is correct that with a general election

:15:02.:15:05.

in seven or eight months' time that the people of the UK know, that when

:15:06.:15:09.

they are putting their X on the ballot paper, the party that will

:15:10.:15:12.

sit in Government for five years will resolve these issues and offer

:15:13.:15:17.

the answers. Have you spoken to David Cameron since the result? I

:15:18.:15:20.

have spoken to many people, not David Cameron. You would think he

:15:21.:15:25.

would ring you and say - where does Wales think on this? David Cameron

:15:26.:15:29.

and myself have spoken about length on what I believe needs to be done

:15:30.:15:33.

for Wales. What are you telling him? I have told him exactly what we need

:15:34.:15:37.

to do on fiscal matters. I'm confident we will get the fiscal

:15:38.:15:41.

settlement we require. I opened the programme saying I have the scars on

:15:42.:15:45.

my back to say that last spring I put myself forward to make sure

:15:46.:15:49.

Wales' voice was heard and as long as I'm leader of the Welsh

:15:50.:15:52.

Conservatives, Wales's voice will be heard in Westminster and we will get

:15:53.:15:54.

that settlement. It fits into the timetable that

:15:55.:16:07.

David Cameron has set out to resolve this issue for this island. We have

:16:08.:16:15.

a responsibility, as Richard Touchstone, to use the powers we

:16:16.:16:19.

have to solve some of the deep-rooted structural problems we

:16:20.:16:24.

have in Wales. I would suggest those issues have not been faced up to

:16:25.:16:29.

because we have got caught in a constitutional quagmire which is the

:16:30.:16:33.

easy option for politicians to skew skew their inabilities. Let us talk

:16:34.:16:36.

about funding now. It seems the Barnett Formula -

:16:37.:16:45.

the system that decides how Wales is funded, is unlikely to be

:16:46.:16:48.

reformed any time soon. What changes need to happen to make

:16:49.:16:50.

up the estimated shortfall Thank you very much. The Barnett

:16:51.:17:08.

formula is the mechanism whereby the money is divided across the UK. At

:17:09.:17:12.

the moment Scotland gets more than Wales and England. Where do you

:17:13.:17:19.

stand on this? Do we need to scrap this formula? It is clear that if

:17:20.:17:28.

you have formula which is based on population and not need, as he is

:17:29.:17:33.

part of the UK get poor alike Wales, you will have a real issue. But you

:17:34.:17:39.

cannot have economies which rely on spending money, not reading it.

:17:40.:17:47.

There are pieces of Barnet which are not addressing key issues.

:17:48.:17:53.

University research funding, all economies are dependent on drive

:17:54.:17:56.

research funding. It is not devolved. UK Government has set up a

:17:57.:18:04.

?10 billion business bank and that is not devolved. Wales loses out on

:18:05.:18:10.

that. It is not just about reforming the Barnett formula itself but

:18:11.:18:14.

making sure that other parts of the UK Government is also devolved in

:18:15.:18:22.

Wales to drive forward the economy. Kirsty Williams, your leader says it

:18:23.:18:28.

continues so that as it? My party actually says that Barnet will

:18:29.:18:34.

remain the formula for funding but we will ensure there are additional

:18:35.:18:40.

payments made. One reason Scotland does well is that prior to

:18:41.:18:43.

devolution the Scottish office was very good about getting items put

:18:44.:18:49.

into the block grant. Wales was less good at that. We have made a

:18:50.:18:54.

commitment in our manifesto to address the underfunding of Wales.

:18:55.:18:59.

When you saw the daily record during the campaign, that though signed by

:19:00.:19:05.

Nick Clegg saying you would really like to scrap the Barnett formula

:19:06.:19:10.

and he said it with the, where you cross with him? We had already

:19:11.:19:18.

addressed this back in August... Scotland will not budge on this. We

:19:19.:19:23.

have said clearly that Barnet will remain for the basis of funding. We

:19:24.:19:30.

also recognise that Wales does not get a good deal out of the Barnett

:19:31.:19:35.

formula. We will address the issue of payments above and beyond the

:19:36.:19:39.

block grant, we made that clear one month ago. It is interesting if you

:19:40.:19:46.

look at that value, because the sentence before it also says that

:19:47.:19:54.

resources should be shared equitably across all four nations. That is

:19:55.:20:01.

about moving towards a new group of needs. We have done the work. We now

:20:02.:20:12.

we are ?300 million underfunded. Our party has said that will be the

:20:13.:20:17.

addressed, Ed Miliband said it as well. We have a mechanism and I

:20:18.:20:24.

think we can now, it is back to weaken the we once the UK Government

:20:25.:20:31.

to get rid of this step mechanism and make sure they agree in

:20:32.:20:39.

principle end not continually being disadvantaged by the Barnett

:20:40.:20:39.

formula. It all stays as it is. The Barnett formula remains for Wales,

:20:40.:20:51.

no extra funding, how we raise extra money for Wales? Again, United, all

:20:52.:20:59.

parties signed up to a part in the Silk Commission, we should have the

:21:00.:21:04.

underfunding address, that was called for... Again this morning, Ed

:21:05.:21:12.

Miliband said this formula stays. You're saying one thing and your

:21:13.:21:16.

team in London are seeing something else. It is about how we address...

:21:17.:21:25.

We instigate a Barnett formula that means any further consequentials

:21:26.:21:29.

that come to Wales, we get at a level to meet our needs. Jerry has

:21:30.:21:35.

done the work. But you're looking to other people to do the work. Dylan

:21:36.:21:42.

makes a good point about what else we can do. Even if we had all the

:21:43.:21:52.

small taxes and income tax, still 75% of our budget is from the block

:21:53.:21:57.

grant. The points he makes about how we should ensure we get the funding

:21:58.:22:02.

from other sources, we have also in Wales progressed from ways we can

:22:03.:22:09.

get funding through public, private finance. University

:22:10.:22:15.

get funding through public, private important. Lots of comments from the

:22:16.:22:16.

audience. Scotland is being offered important. Lots of comments from the

:22:17.:22:24.

a good deal on powers and funding, because it had leverage, the threat

:22:25.:22:25.

it would leave the UK, so a because it had leverage, the threat

:22:26.:22:31.

been thrown at it to keep it in the UK. How can Wales get the leverage

:22:32.:22:36.

to get what it wants? If we had the leadership on this and didn't

:22:37.:22:42.

constantly talk about crumbs on the table and moved forward and talk

:22:43.:22:46.

about scrapping the Barnett formula because it does not meet the needs

:22:47.:22:50.

of Wales then we would be in a better position. We do not have a

:22:51.:22:56.

level playing field. There needs to be measures taken in the short-term

:22:57.:23:02.

to equalise our position and correct our historic disadvantage. In the

:23:03.:23:07.

long-term, we must move towards a situation where we are economically

:23:08.:23:11.

self-sufficient. Are we nearly there? Do you genuinely think Wales

:23:12.:23:19.

foreseeable future? I have ambitions foreseeable future? I have ambitions

:23:20.:23:23.

for Wales to become independent to make their own decisions. Timescale?

:23:24.:23:30.

We could not do that tomorrow. How many years are we talking about?

:23:31.:23:36.

We could not do that tomorrow. How is a big gap. This is the point

:23:37.:23:37.

about reforming the is a big gap. This is the point

:23:38.:23:39.

formula... Hang on. When Scotland is a big gap. This is the point

:23:40.:23:49.

you think they did so? is a big gap. This is the point

:23:50.:23:53.

knew they were better as part of the union in terms

:23:54.:23:57.

knew they were better as part of the social solidarity and risks, they

:23:58.:24:00.

knew they were better. In terms of the future prospects of

:24:01.:24:12.

knew they were better. In terms of native kingdom. We have a strong

:24:13.:24:14.

political will read this table today. On independence, given the

:24:15.:24:22.

timescale. Surely we would all agree that we would want to get Wales in

:24:23.:24:26.

the position whether they could ask the people of Wales whether they

:24:27.:24:31.

wanted independence? It is not possible to see how far off that is

:24:32.:24:36.

because the fiscal gap is big at the moment and the government

:24:37.:24:38.

because the fiscal gap is big at the taking any measures to close it.

:24:39.:24:44.

That is why we need a new government after 2016 with plans to close the

:24:45.:24:51.

glad -- close the gap. You do get clarity in Scotland in terms of who

:24:52.:24:52.

once fought. Where do you clarity in Scotland in terms of who

:24:53.:25:00.

terms of a timescale? Isn't a dream or reality? This is all down to

:25:01.:25:06.

people and they will or reality? This is all down to

:25:07.:25:10.

when it takes place. I could envisage a situation where there is

:25:11.:25:15.

a Plaid Cymru government in 2016 with a mandate to drop its own

:25:16.:25:18.

constitution and a mandate to have a proper industrial policy with powers

:25:19.:25:23.

to start the process of getting people into work, paying taxes into

:25:24.:25:35.

a Welsh tax pot and closing the gap. It will not be impossible then to

:25:36.:25:37.

move towards an independence referendum in the second term. That

:25:38.:25:40.

would be a matter for the people. We are talking 2020 to then? That could

:25:41.:25:47.

be possible. The first thing to say is that Wales benefits from the

:25:48.:25:53.

union. Listening to what is going on about 300 million being

:25:54.:25:58.

short-changed. We are getting more out of the union than we could end.

:25:59.:26:03.

As a politician in Wales, I will argue for more for Wales as part of

:26:04.:26:08.

the union but what we have got to do is create an economy that can

:26:09.:26:13.

generate more wealth itself. The only way to do that is by having the

:26:14.:26:18.

fiscal and taxation levers to do that. You grow the tax base. You do

:26:19.:26:24.

that by incentivising people to work, creating entrepreneurs. Come

:26:25.:26:31.

to Wales and stay here. You have to lower taxes in Wales. That is the

:26:32.:26:36.

way you create your wealth. There was no part in arguing this again

:26:37.:26:41.

and again, you have to have the solutions. This is an important site

:26:42.:26:48.

you are looking for cancers. That is why we have inward investment

:26:49.:26:54.

strategies. -- for cancers. That is why we have brought regeneration

:26:55.:27:00.

ideas forward. The important thing is to generate wealth here in Wales

:27:01.:27:06.

and link it to specific projects like research financing which is a

:27:07.:27:12.

UK wide issue and wheels can punch well above its weight by plugging

:27:13.:27:17.

into the UK agenda of improving the research bases on nice islands. On

:27:18.:27:24.

taxation, you want income tax, would you lower rates for the top earners?

:27:25.:27:31.

Possibly. I am not prepared to make a commitment. That is an ongoing

:27:32.:27:36.

debate on that in the party. We have not decided. The problem is the

:27:37.:27:44.

party leaders the others he made these promises to Scotland without

:27:45.:27:48.

consulting Parliament and they made them out of panic, and the Barnett

:27:49.:27:54.

formula, making promises to Scotland without considering the rest of the

:27:55.:28:00.

UK, including England, means they will began adding momentum towards

:28:01.:28:07.

speak up. A commentator said the referendum in Scotland had a week

:28:08.:28:10.

and the sleeping beast of English nationalism. Party leaders will need

:28:11.:28:18.

to address this. We do not have any UK politicians on the panel. I think

:28:19.:28:23.

that is what caused the problem in Scotland in the first place, they

:28:24.:28:26.

spend their time in Westminster rather than Scotland. A question

:28:27.:28:34.

about health in the front? It is like begging. The idea that English

:28:35.:28:40.

waters will give ?300 million more to Wales seems ludicrous to me. We

:28:41.:28:45.

have to break out about this argument about how much money we

:28:46.:28:50.

need, important although it is. We need to energise politics in wheels,

:28:51.:28:55.

it is a steal in Wales as it is in England because we are not engaging

:28:56.:29:02.

people in the issues that matter. For example health, people feel

:29:03.:29:06.

passionately about it but they feel pushed out of that debate. It is

:29:07.:29:11.

difficult to have an adult debate about the health service in Wales.

:29:12.:29:18.

There are important decisions to be made. Politicians arguing is a

:29:19.:29:25.

massive turn-off. I think we're having a debate about what powers

:29:26.:29:29.

but not with the public about why need those powers. I am not sure if

:29:30.:29:36.

there is a classical consensus about how and when it is done around the

:29:37.:29:42.

table. We have not expressed to teachers why they would be better or

:29:43.:29:48.

worse off if this was to come. How exactly will be change the lives of

:29:49.:29:53.

people in Wales? We have already said we are 300 million short since

:29:54.:30:02.

the Barnett formula came in. It has degenerated the NHS and dirt

:30:03.:30:08.

education system. Three local primary schools near me had a

:30:09.:30:16.

consultation about closing. If we need to protect things for future

:30:17.:30:21.

generations, how will we have the ability to invest in our future, we

:30:22.:30:28.

have not got the education in Wales for people to come year.

:30:29.:30:32.

The lady at the back, it is creditedical that Wales' voices are

:30:33.:30:38.

heard. That's why we have to have unity and we have in terms of the

:30:39.:30:43.

way forward but let's remember it was our First Minister, Carwyn Jones

:30:44.:30:48.

who two years ago said we need a UK convention to discuss this. It can't

:30:49.:30:54.

be just - Were you not impressed? I was impressed Andrew that David

:30:55.:30:56.

Cameron said Wales should be at the heart of the debate, which was good.

:30:57.:31:01.

It was a nod. Wales should be at the heart. So obviously we pressed for

:31:02.:31:04.

this UK convention but it is critical, as Marcus has said, that

:31:05.:31:08.

we can move forward to engage people in Wales, people are passionate

:31:09.:31:12.

about the health service. I have to say I'm financial minister, with a

:31:13.:31:17.

budget that has been cut by this UK Government, by 10% in real terms,

:31:18.:31:22.

that's why there is a pressure on health and education but let's use

:31:23.:31:28.

this opportunity to unite where we can, speak strongly together, get

:31:29.:31:32.

the engagements of not just people who use services but our health

:31:33.:31:36.

professionals and our teachers, of course and our children. I want to

:31:37.:31:40.

also go for votes for 16 and 17-year-olds because I think it'll

:31:41.:31:43.

make a difference. Let's try to get another question in. That comes from

:31:44.:31:46.

the academic, David Howell. David. Where would you like to see

:31:47.:31:52.

Wales in five years from now? Big question. Let's go to somebody who

:31:53.:31:57.

has not constrained by being in office, Leanne Wood. I would like to

:31:58.:32:03.

see us in a position where the fiscal gap was closing, where our

:32:04.:32:08.

economy was improving, where more of our people were in better-paid jobs

:32:09.:32:14.

and where we were starting to put together the institutions and

:32:15.:32:17.

infrastructure, whereby we could get to the point where we had the debate

:32:18.:32:21.

that people have had recently in Scotland about why powers, why

:32:22.:32:26.

independence, what independence could achieve, to prevent us

:32:27.:32:29.

carrying on with the same-old business as usual. The cuts you have

:32:30.:32:33.

talked about, that is currently closing schools and putting our

:32:34.:32:36.

health service in jeopardy. Whichever party is in power in

:32:37.:32:40.

Westminster is going to continue with the austerity agenda. The

:32:41.:32:45.

debate in Scotland was something alternative to this could be

:32:46.:32:48.

possible with independence. I would dearly love us to be able to have a

:32:49.:32:52.

similar conversation like that here in Wales. Andrew TR Davies. 2019, in

:32:53.:32:58.

Wales, what is going on? A lot will depend on who gets selected in 2016.

:32:59.:33:03.

There is a sequence of elections, 2015 and 2016, the again and Welsh

:33:04.:33:07.

Assembly elections which will set the tone for what we want to be in

:33:08.:33:12.

2019. We can carry on with in business as usual with the Labour

:33:13.:33:16.

Party and the other two parties propping them up or we can move to

:33:17.:33:21.

aprogressive agenda that grows the we'll shall economy, offers

:33:22.:33:25.

opportunity for people in Wales to grow, create the pillars of society

:33:26.:33:28.

and ultimately support our own public services. You could do that

:33:29.:33:33.

now, you are in power in Westminster and giving more to Wales. We are

:33:34.:33:36.

doing that, look at the economic growth, the job creation, look at

:33:37.:33:41.

the way the UK is looked at across the rest of the world. We have a

:33:42.:33:45.

successful model at running the economy. Look at who willed a and

:33:46.:33:48.

France. Compare and contrast what we have done by stabilising the public

:33:49.:33:52.

finances and turning people back to work, to what is going on in France.

:33:53.:33:56.

Book in Wales ultimately what we have to do is be passionate and have

:33:57.:34:00.

belief in what we can do and it has to be focussed in stopping this

:34:01.:34:05.

anaemic economic growth, and growing the economic economy, so people feel

:34:06.:34:11.

prosperous in Wales, making money. In England resentedment of

:34:12.:34:14.

Westminster and north and Midlands is leading to demands for city

:34:15.:34:20.

states and devolved regions. In Wales, there is also resentment not

:34:21.:34:26.

just of Westminster, but Cardiff Bay, too, hasn't the time come to

:34:27.:34:29.

empower the level of government that's closest to the communities

:34:30.:34:34.

people leave in. More devolution, we will come to

:34:35.:34:38.

that. Our questioner, where do you think we will be. Two questions,

:34:39.:34:43.

where I would like us to be and where I think we'll be. We talked

:34:44.:34:46.

about strength in the devolution settlement. I would like to see that

:34:47.:34:50.

and a lot of people would agree. We have talked about demonstrable

:34:51.:34:52.

returns in relation it the devolution settlement in Wales.

:34:53.:34:55.

Whether voters necessarily believe we are in a position to do something

:34:56.:35:00.

positive, with a stronger devolution settlement, I think is a more

:35:01.:35:03.

pressing question. The only thing I would add to that is what I would

:35:04.:35:08.

true lie like to see is the level of engagement from voters that we have

:35:09.:35:11.

seen in Scotland. I think it is a tremendous thing to celebrate. On

:35:12.:35:16.

that, coasty Williams, the vision thing, the engagement. -- Kirsty

:35:17.:35:19.

Williams. Everybody knew what we were talking B how do you replicate

:35:20.:35:23.

that in Wales? -- talking about. I would like to see a settled

:35:24.:35:27.

constitution so we can move on from talking about the these issues and

:35:28.:35:31.

concentrate on what we are going to do with the powers. I think that's

:35:32.:35:34.

how you get the engagement when you will be offering voters in Wales

:35:35.:35:39.

real choices knowing you can deliver them rather than having to second

:35:40.:35:42.

guess whoo might or might not happen in waechls you are right,

:35:43.:35:47.

absolutely. I represent a Mid Wales constituency. Believe me people in

:35:48.:35:50.

Brecon often feel as disinterested in Cardiff as they do in else W so

:35:51.:35:55.

really driving power down, devolution not just for Cardiff but

:35:56.:36:00.

back to local government in Wales. We are coming to the end of the

:36:01.:36:03.

programme. The vision thing, you are in charge, Jane, what is the vision,

:36:04.:36:08.

five years from now? Well, in five years, I hope, actually, Andrew, we

:36:09.:36:12.

will have a Labour Government in Westminster to deliver on some of

:36:13.:36:22.

the issues which are affecting so many people today Ed Miliband has

:36:23.:36:26.

said ?8 minimum wage which will address some of the poverty issues

:36:27.:36:29.

people are experiencing in Wales. What we have to do and I entirely

:36:30.:36:34.

agree with panel members and my colleagues, that we have to do more

:36:35.:36:37.

to engage people in the political process. I have mentioned 16 and

:36:38.:36:41.

17-year-olds. Our young people tell us what they think Wales should be,

:36:42.:36:45.

a Wales which is more prosperous. A Wales which is healthier but also a

:36:46.:36:49.

Wales which is fairer. I think that's where - that's why, in terms

:36:50.:36:54.

of our discussions, our engagement with young people particularly, that

:36:55.:36:57.

will bring people on board but it has to be a fairer and more equal

:36:58.:37:04.

Wales. And let's face it, I do think many of the panel's members have

:37:05.:37:08.

said - what we should be doing with our powers now? We went on the

:37:09.:37:14.

doorsteps and argued all of us we should have legislative powers.

:37:15.:37:16.

ALL TALK AT ONCE

:37:17.:37:21.

We are drawing to an end. We have three leaders around the table. Will

:37:22.:37:24.

you be leading your party in five years Leanne Wood? I hope so. Yes.

:37:25.:37:29.

Definitely. No challenges coming down the road? You never know in the

:37:30.:37:33.

Conservative Party. And Kirsty Williams? Any plans? No

:37:34.:37:39.

plans, except keeping on pressing Wales's case in Westminster. That's

:37:40.:37:43.

what I think my job at the moment is to do, to ensure that we get our

:37:44.:37:48.

fair share out of these discussions. Carwyn Jones isn't here, he will

:37:49.:37:51.

still be, presumably, leading your party, will he? Do you fancy it? He

:37:52.:37:57.

has taken the lead not just in Wales but for Wales on behalf of the whole

:37:58.:37:59.

of the UK. Let's become his but for Wales on behalf of the whole

:38:00.:38:02.

convention and make sure Wales is strong in the debate.

:38:03.:38:05.

OK, well I think the debate will go on. Thank you very much to our

:38:06.:38:09.

panellists. That's all we on. Thank you very much to our

:38:10.:38:12.

for tonight. The debate goes on social media at

:38:13.:38:19.

# The Walesreport. Huw Edwards will be back with a new series of the

:38:20.:38:24.

Wales Report in October. But for now, thanks for joining us,

:38:25.:38:31.

diolch am Wylio, Nos Da, Good Night.

:38:32.:38:37.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS