21/09/2014 The Wales Report

The Scottish referendum is over and the big question has finally

But what does that mean for devolution in the UK?

Here in Wales, there are many questions that will affect all

Tonight we are looking to Wales?s future with a selected audience,

who have questions for our panel of political leaders.

Stay with us for some answers on a special Wales Report.

Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of the Wales Report.

It?s been a momentous week ? Scotland has cast its vote

The First Minister, Alex Salmond, has resigned as negotiations with

But despite the No vote, it seems the status quo will not survive.

Further devolution is on the cards for Scotland, for Wales

So, change is coming but what does all

Well, tonight?s audience is made up of people who work in Welsh public

life ? in healthcare, education, those who deliver your local

services and they want answers from our panel of leading politicians.

With us tonight is the Welsh Government Finance Minister,

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies.

Kirsty Williams is the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Leanne

Before we kick off tonight?s debate ? remember you too can have

your say on social media using the hashtag - #thewalesreport.

Our first question tonight is from Jessica Blair from

I think this is the one and only goal we should be focusing on.

Economic reform is needed. That package of economic members has to

be correct and write for Wales. So that our democracy can use those

powers to increase our economic performance and prosperity across

Wales. I think the decision about reserve powers has already been

taken by the court. Irrespective of where I sit on the

legislation referred on the decision made, we will have a referred powers

model, I have no doubt about it. Obviously it is time to get the

measures in place and pass the necessary, regulations, legislation

to allow it to be conferred back to the acceptably. Under the powers it

is what Scotland has already. It clears it up and makes sure everyone

knows where the responsibility lies. Kirsty Williams, what powers should

be coming to Wales Like you, Jess, I think we have to have something that

is clear and permanent. I think it is time to stop tinkering and

constantly going back to this issue every few years. We need a permanent

settlement that allows the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government to get

on with delivering decent public services to Wales. To do, that we

have to have some form of fiscal devolution. The ability for the

Welsh Government to raise a sum of the expenditure that then goes it

then goes on to spend on public services. I think that leaves to

increasing accountability but gives us the tools that if we reap it

back, that money goes to Wales, rather than handing it back to

London and then begging to London. We should have clear recommendation

abouts policing, youth justice, energy consensus, I think those

things should be decided by the Welsh Government and scrutinised by

the Welsh Assembly. We will be talking about a commission, part 1

talking about financial powers, part 2, talking about extra powers like

youth justice and policing and extra Assembly Members. Let's go to you.

What powers does Wales need? If I can start by saying I spent sometime

in Scotland during the referendum campaign. What is very different

about the debate we are having here in Wales about the kind of powers

that we want, its very technical, it is jargon, it's boring, to be honest

with you H it contrasts very -- to. To be honest with you, and could

contrasts with the debate people have been having in Scotland and why

they want independence, so they can have a different kind of politics.

For me the starting point should be about looking at the problems we

have and what powers we need to be able to solve the problems. What do

we need? Well, if we take that starting point, we know there are

many people struggling in Wales at the moment to make ends meet.

Austerity is pushing people towards food banks. We have already had -

this weekend, news of somebody dying in an ambulance, because there isn't

enough money, frankly, in the NHS. Now, we can either carry on like

this, year-on-year, with the gap between what we need to provide and

the money we get growing, because of this austerity agenda from the

Westminster establishment. Or we can think long term about the kind of

infrastructure we would need to be able to properly fund. Is that what

you need more handouts and grants? No, I need to get to the point where

we can stand on our own two feet. Part of the debate in Scotland was

about the future of the NHS. And while the NHS and health is

devolved, it is true to say, that the financing of the NHS is not. And

if privatisation and patient charging and austerity continues in

England, there will be a knock-on effect, through the Barnett Formula

on the amount we have to spend in-house. These are the questions we

should be debating, not the technicalities we have had so far.

Right, you are in power in the Assembly. What powers are you

desperate for as a Government? is the vision? What do you want it

make Wales work? -- to is the vision? What do you want it

work. We have a strong call, supported by all parties

work. We have a strong call, affected in the Silk Commission,

one, in terms of financial affected in the Silk Commission,

which we all said today that we need but

which we all said today that we need is about making the decisions

which we all said today that we need decisions made in Wales. We clearly

nooe need a settlement in terms of our financial powers. I have to say

what is important is we come through our financial powers. I have to say

the post-Scotland referendum debate stronger, as a nation, in Wales,

that we come through this saying - you know, we already have done a lot

of work, we have you know, we already have done a lot

result of devolution. Let's make sure that we have the powers - and

it is the power to improve the prospects for our young people.

Well, with respect, which powers do you need? Do you want income tax

with no shackles? Would you, as in charge of finances here, would you

love to be controlling income tax in Wales? Would that make a difference?

? Clearly we are progressing through Westminster, a very important piece

of legislation as Andrew has said, a very important piece of legislation

which is actually going to start devolving taxes from... You want

that. devolving taxes from... You want

get fair funding, if we get a referendum in the Silk Commission.

You would rather not referendum in the Silk Commission.

know the tax base in Wales isn't great. There are

know the tax base in Wales isn't of risks in terms of tax devolution.

We have already taken of risks in terms of tax devolution.

tax... You don't want it. of risks in terms of tax devolution.

fair funding f we don't, then, of course, 75% of our money for Wales

would still course, 75% of our money for Wales

fair at the moment. Of course we will move on. With respect... If we

get funding. This is why people are switched off by the debate. I'm

asking you, do you want income tax or not. You are in charge of Wales's

asking you, do you want income tax finances, you are the woman with

your finger on the pulse, do you want income tax? Can I say... Yes or

no. If we don't get a better financial settlement, we will be

disadvantaged by having income tax-raising powers. It is too risky

at the moment. If we do, then, of course as the people of Wales, they

will then have their say in a referendum, which is what it

will then have their say in a be. A few comments from the back

row. be. A few comments from the back

On health matters and I know we are moving on to finance but if the call

is for more powers for Wales but you using the powers you already

have? We have a public health bill working its way through the Assembly

at the moment which had working its way through the Assembly

ambitions at the start, health in all policies and it is being diluted

down. You have a real opportunity with the powers you

down. You have a real opportunity some legislation that will really

make a difference to some legislation that will really

Wales, both in health and otherwise and you seem shy to use the powers

you have currently got. Why do you need more? Andrew RT Davies? It is a

good point. We have a backs et of responsibilities and powers and

legislative compassities transferred over the last 15 years. As I said,

the beall and end all for me is making sure the financial settlement

is krevenlingt the financial settlement is a settlement that will

give us economic prosperity and by doing that, you remain competitive

and that's about lowering tax. I think there is a moment here where

we could put together a package that will last, rather than make do and

mend, the approach we have had over the last 15 years. It is mentioned

already the tax powers that are before Parliament are still subject

to a referendum. We hear England will get extra devolution, not

subject to a referendum, subject to a vote in a general election. Why

does Wales constantly have to be... Second class. Puts its ambitions

before constant barriers and referendums. Have a conversation,

come up with something that lasts and vote on it in an election, not

consfantly forcing us to go through referenda.

Are we getting the leadership 234 Wales? The referendum is on the

table for the powers devolved to Wales? Why do we have to go through

that process, given the fact that the powers for Scotland and England

are more advanced and not subject to a referendum. It seems the game has

changed since the powers were outlined. It will be interesting to

see if we have changed with it. It is important that we put on record

tonight that we are ?300 million under-funded in Wales and everyone

recognised. Jerry hull ton did an important piece of work which the

Welsh Government asked him to do. Independently, he said, "You are

underfunded ""Unless we deal with that under-funding and make sure

tlat Westminster Government - and I think we would all agree here

tonight, all parties - we need to get that addressed. We need to get

that ?350 million, and put a floor on Barnett. I'm sorry, we have to

say that now because it is quite true, as Richard said, we have to

use the powers we have. This is crumbs off the table. Would you

accept the basic central principle that we should be equal to Scotland

in this? There should be nothing that comes to Wales that is below

what is being offered to Scot snrand give some leadership on this now. I

know the leader isn't here today. -- Scotland.

This is the third panel debate we have taken part in, as party

leaders, and we haven't had the opportunity to hear from... Show

some leadership. It is essential, isn't t Leanne that we get the

change that Westminster accepts that Wales has to have the devolution.

You couldn't deliver that. Can you just respond on this, because there

has been a lot of questions. Carwyn Jones hasn't been on any of these

panels, if you want to address that point? I'm the Finance Minister for

Wales responsible for making sure we take through these particular

powers. It is very important, the quality. Don't let's use this

opportunity, Leanne, I would say, to divide. Let us show and I think

Kirsty Williams has said this on all the panels, let's show where we are

united in Wales. Outside of Wales they will not listen to us unless

they see Wales is speaking with a united voice. And people know what

the Welsh want. That's the point. And we have no clarity on that.

Let's hear from the panel what they think. Let's hear from Kirsty

Williams. I think we are not going to get anywhere if we cannot provide

that strong, clear leadership and that strong clear - ask Westminster

at this crucial time. We have seen the debate being dominated about

what is going to happen in Scotland and England and Wales is being

pushed to the sidelines again. We have a responsibility amongst all

the political leadership and civic leadership to speak as much as we

can with one clear voice about what we want out of Whitehall and

Westminster. If we think that they are sitting up there in London

thinking - yes, we'll hand it all over to Wales, then we are kidding

ourselves. We have to find a way forward, otherwise we will be pushed

to the margins. We will get crumbs off the table. A vow has been made

that Scotland will get this from David Cameron, and he has chucked

England into it. You can see in the papers it is all about Scotland and

Wales, Scotland is being forgotten. On the remarks the Prime Minister

made on Friday morning, he included every part of the Union needing a

firm settlement, talking about what we need is to be constitutionally

durable. He moved on to the general election, the main thing was

attacking Labour. In fairness, it is correct that with a general election

in seven or eight months' time that the people of the UK know, that when

they are putting their X on the ballot paper, the party that will

sit in Government for five years will resolve these issues and offer

the answers. Have you spoken to David Cameron since the result? I

have spoken to many people, not David Cameron. You would think he

would ring you and say - where does Wales think on this? David Cameron

and myself have spoken about length on what I believe needs to be done

for Wales. What are you telling him? I have told him exactly what we need

to do on fiscal matters. I'm confident we will get the fiscal

settlement we require. I opened the programme saying I have the scars on

my back to say that last spring I put myself forward to make sure

Wales' voice was heard and as long as I'm leader of the Welsh

Conservatives, Wales's voice will be heard in Westminster and we will get

that settlement. It fits into the timetable that

David Cameron has set out to resolve this issue for this island. We have

a responsibility, as Richard Touchstone, to use the powers we

have to solve some of the deep-rooted structural problems we

have in Wales. I would suggest those issues have not been faced up to

because we have got caught in a constitutional quagmire which is the

easy option for politicians to skew skew their inabilities. Let us talk

about funding now. It seems the Barnett Formula -

the system that decides how Wales is funded, is unlikely to be

reformed any time soon. What changes need to happen to make

up the estimated shortfall Thank you very much. The Barnett

formula is the mechanism whereby the money is divided across the UK. At

the moment Scotland gets more than Wales and England. Where do you

stand on this? Do we need to scrap this formula? It is clear that if

you have formula which is based on population and not need, as he is

part of the UK get poor alike Wales, you will have a real issue. But you

cannot have economies which rely on spending money, not reading it.

There are pieces of Barnet which are not addressing key issues.

University research funding, all economies are dependent on drive

research funding. It is not devolved. UK Government has set up a

?10 billion business bank and that is not devolved. Wales loses out on

that. It is not just about reforming the Barnett formula itself but

making sure that other parts of the UK Government is also devolved in

Wales to drive forward the economy. Kirsty Williams, your leader says it

continues so that as it? My party actually says that Barnet will

remain the formula for funding but we will ensure there are additional

payments made. One reason Scotland does well is that prior to

devolution the Scottish office was very good about getting items put

into the block grant. Wales was less good at that. We have made a

commitment in our manifesto to address the underfunding of Wales.

When you saw the daily record during the campaign, that though signed by

Nick Clegg saying you would really like to scrap the Barnett formula

and he said it with the, where you cross with him? We had already

addressed this back in August... Scotland will not budge on this. We

have said clearly that Barnet will remain for the basis of funding. We

also recognise that Wales does not get a good deal out of the Barnett

formula. We will address the issue of payments above and beyond the

block grant, we made that clear one month ago. It is interesting if you

look at that value, because the sentence before it also says that

resources should be shared equitably across all four nations. That is

about moving towards a new group of needs. We have done the work. We now

we are ?300 million underfunded. Our party has said that will be the

addressed, Ed Miliband said it as well. We have a mechanism and I

think we can now, it is back to weaken the we once the UK Government

to get rid of this step mechanism and make sure they agree in

principle end not continually being disadvantaged by the Barnett

formula. It all stays as it is. The Barnett formula remains for Wales,

no extra funding, how we raise extra money for Wales? Again, United, all

parties signed up to a part in the Silk Commission, we should have the

underfunding address, that was called for... Again this morning, Ed

Miliband said this formula stays. You're saying one thing and your

team in London are seeing something else. It is about how we address...

We instigate a Barnett formula that means any further consequentials

that come to Wales, we get at a level to meet our needs. Jerry has

done the work. But you're looking to other people to do the work. Dylan

makes a good point about what else we can do. Even if we had all the

small taxes and income tax, still 75% of our budget is from the block

grant. The points he makes about how we should ensure we get the funding

from other sources, we have also in Wales progressed from ways we can

get funding through public, private finance. University

get funding through public, private important. Lots of comments from the

audience. Scotland is being offered important. Lots of comments from the

a good deal on powers and funding, because it had leverage, the threat

it would leave the UK, so a because it had leverage, the threat

been thrown at it to keep it in the UK. How can Wales get the leverage

to get what it wants? If we had the leadership on this and didn't

constantly talk about crumbs on the table and moved forward and talk

about scrapping the Barnett formula because it does not meet the needs

of Wales then we would be in a better position. We do not have a

level playing field. There needs to be measures taken in the short-term

to equalise our position and correct our historic disadvantage. In the

long-term, we must move towards a situation where we are economically

self-sufficient. Are we nearly there? Do you genuinely think Wales

foreseeable future? I have ambitions foreseeable future? I have ambitions

for Wales to become independent to make their own decisions. Timescale?

We could not do that tomorrow. How many years are we talking about?

We could not do that tomorrow. How is a big gap. This is the point

about reforming the is a big gap. This is the point

formula... Hang on. When Scotland is a big gap. This is the point

you think they did so? is a big gap. This is the point

knew they were better as part of the union in terms

knew they were better as part of the social solidarity and risks, they

knew they were better. In terms of the future prospects of

knew they were better. In terms of native kingdom. We have a strong

political will read this table today. On independence, given the

timescale. Surely we would all agree that we would want to get Wales in

the position whether they could ask the people of Wales whether they

wanted independence? It is not possible to see how far off that is

because the fiscal gap is big at the moment and the government

because the fiscal gap is big at the taking any measures to close it.

That is why we need a new government after 2016 with plans to close the

glad -- close the gap. You do get clarity in Scotland in terms of who

once fought. Where do you clarity in Scotland in terms of who

terms of a timescale? Isn't a dream or reality? This is all down to

people and they will or reality? This is all down to

when it takes place. I could envisage a situation where there is

a Plaid Cymru government in 2016 with a mandate to drop its own

constitution and a mandate to have a proper industrial policy with powers

to start the process of getting people into work, paying taxes into

a Welsh tax pot and closing the gap. It will not be impossible then to

move towards an independence referendum in the second term. That

would be a matter for the people. We are talking 2020 to then? That could

be possible. The first thing to say is that Wales benefits from the

union. Listening to what is going on about 300 million being

short-changed. We are getting more out of the union than we could end.

As a politician in Wales, I will argue for more for Wales as part of

the union but what we have got to do is create an economy that can

generate more wealth itself. The only way to do that is by having the

fiscal and taxation levers to do that. You grow the tax base. You do

that by incentivising people to work, creating entrepreneurs. Come

to Wales and stay here. You have to lower taxes in Wales. That is the

way you create your wealth. There was no part in arguing this again

and again, you have to have the solutions. This is an important site

you are looking for cancers. That is why we have inward investment

strategies. -- for cancers. That is why we have brought regeneration

ideas forward. The important thing is to generate wealth here in Wales

and link it to specific projects like research financing which is a

UK wide issue and wheels can punch well above its weight by plugging

into the UK agenda of improving the research bases on nice islands. On

taxation, you want income tax, would you lower rates for the top earners?

Possibly. I am not prepared to make a commitment. That is an ongoing

debate on that in the party. We have not decided. The problem is the

party leaders the others he made these promises to Scotland without

consulting Parliament and they made them out of panic, and the Barnett

formula, making promises to Scotland without considering the rest of the

UK, including England, means they will began adding momentum towards

speak up. A commentator said the referendum in Scotland had a week

and the sleeping beast of English nationalism. Party leaders will need

to address this. We do not have any UK politicians on the panel. I think

that is what caused the problem in Scotland in the first place, they

spend their time in Westminster rather than Scotland. A question

about health in the front? It is like begging. The idea that English

waters will give ?300 million more to Wales seems ludicrous to me. We

have to break out about this argument about how much money we

need, important although it is. We need to energise politics in wheels,

it is a steal in Wales as it is in England because we are not engaging

people in the issues that matter. For example health, people feel

passionately about it but they feel pushed out of that debate. It is

difficult to have an adult debate about the health service in Wales.

There are important decisions to be made. Politicians arguing is a

massive turn-off. I think we're having a debate about what powers

but not with the public about why need those powers. I am not sure if

there is a classical consensus about how and when it is done around the

table. We have not expressed to teachers why they would be better or

worse off if this was to come. How exactly will be change the lives of

people in Wales? We have already said we are 300 million short since

the Barnett formula came in. It has degenerated the NHS and dirt

education system. Three local primary schools near me had a

consultation about closing. If we need to protect things for future

generations, how will we have the ability to invest in our future, we

have not got the education in Wales for people to come year.

The lady at the back, it is creditedical that Wales' voices are

heard. That's why we have to have unity and we have in terms of the

way forward but let's remember it was our First Minister, Carwyn Jones

who two years ago said we need a UK convention to discuss this. It can't

be just - Were you not impressed? I was impressed Andrew that David

Cameron said Wales should be at the heart of the debate, which was good.

It was a nod. Wales should be at the heart. So obviously we pressed for

this UK convention but it is critical, as Marcus has said, that

we can move forward to engage people in Wales, people are passionate

about the health service. I have to say I'm financial minister, with a

budget that has been cut by this UK Government, by 10% in real terms,

that's why there is a pressure on health and education but let's use

this opportunity to unite where we can, speak strongly together, get

the engagements of not just people who use services but our health

professionals and our teachers, of course and our children. I want to

also go for votes for 16 and 17-year-olds because I think it'll

make a difference. Let's try to get another question in. That comes from

the academic, David Howell. David. Where would you like to see

Wales in five years from now? Big question. Let's go to somebody who

has not constrained by being in office, Leanne Wood. I would like to

see us in a position where the fiscal gap was closing, where our

economy was improving, where more of our people were in better-paid jobs

and where we were starting to put together the institutions and

infrastructure, whereby we could get to the point where we had the debate

that people have had recently in Scotland about why powers, why

independence, what independence could achieve, to prevent us

carrying on with the same-old business as usual. The cuts you have

talked about, that is currently closing schools and putting our

health service in jeopardy. Whichever party is in power in

Westminster is going to continue with the austerity agenda. The

debate in Scotland was something alternative to this could be

possible with independence. I would dearly love us to be able to have a

similar conversation like that here in Wales. Andrew TR Davies. 2019, in

Wales, what is going on? A lot will depend on who gets selected in 2016.

There is a sequence of elections, 2015 and 2016, the again and Welsh

Assembly elections which will set the tone for what we want to be in

2019. We can carry on with in business as usual with the Labour

Party and the other two parties propping them up or we can move to

aprogressive agenda that grows the we'll shall economy, offers

opportunity for people in Wales to grow, create the pillars of society

and ultimately support our own public services. You could do that

now, you are in power in Westminster and giving more to Wales. We are

doing that, look at the economic growth, the job creation, look at

the way the UK is looked at across the rest of the world. We have a

successful model at running the economy. Look at who willed a and

France. Compare and contrast what we have done by stabilising the public

finances and turning people back to work, to what is going on in France.

Book in Wales ultimately what we have to do is be passionate and have

belief in what we can do and it has to be focussed in stopping this

anaemic economic growth, and growing the economic economy, so people feel

prosperous in Wales, making money. In England resentedment of

Westminster and north and Midlands is leading to demands for city

states and devolved regions. In Wales, there is also resentment not

just of Westminster, but Cardiff Bay, too, hasn't the time come to

empower the level of government that's closest to the communities

people leave in. More devolution, we will come to

that. Our questioner, where do you think we will be. Two questions,

where I would like us to be and where I think we'll be. We talked

about strength in the devolution settlement. I would like to see that

and a lot of people would agree. We have talked about demonstrable

returns in relation it the devolution settlement in Wales.

Whether voters necessarily believe we are in a position to do something

positive, with a stronger devolution settlement, I think is a more

pressing question. The only thing I would add to that is what I would

true lie like to see is the level of engagement from voters that we have

seen in Scotland. I think it is a tremendous thing to celebrate. On

that, coasty Williams, the vision thing, the engagement. -- Kirsty

Williams. Everybody knew what we were talking B how do you replicate

that in Wales? -- talking about. I would like to see a settled

constitution so we can move on from talking about the these issues and

concentrate on what we are going to do with the powers. I think that's

how you get the engagement when you will be offering voters in Wales

real choices knowing you can deliver them rather than having to second

guess whoo might or might not happen in waechls you are right,

absolutely. I represent a Mid Wales constituency. Believe me people in

Brecon often feel as disinterested in Cardiff as they do in else W so

really driving power down, devolution not just for Cardiff but

back to local government in Wales. We are coming to the end of the

programme. The vision thing, you are in charge, Jane, what is the vision,

five years from now? Well, in five years, I hope, actually, Andrew, we

will have a Labour Government in Westminster to deliver on some of

the issues which are affecting so many people today Ed Miliband has

said ?8 minimum wage which will address some of the poverty issues

people are experiencing in Wales. What we have to do and I entirely

agree with panel members and my colleagues, that we have to do more

to engage people in the political process. I have mentioned 16 and

17-year-olds. Our young people tell us what they think Wales should be,

a Wales which is more prosperous. A Wales which is healthier but also a

Wales which is fairer. I think that's where - that's why, in terms

of our discussions, our engagement with young people particularly, that

will bring people on board but it has to be a fairer and more equal

Wales. And let's face it, I do think many of the panel's members have

said - what we should be doing with our powers now? We went on the

doorsteps and argued all of us we should have legislative powers.

ALL TALK AT ONCE

We are drawing to an end. We have three leaders around the table. Will

you be leading your party in five years Leanne Wood? I hope so. Yes.

Definitely. No challenges coming down the road? You never know in the

Conservative Party. And Kirsty Williams? Any plans? No

plans, except keeping on pressing Wales's case in Westminster. That's

what I think my job at the moment is to do, to ensure that we get our

fair share out of these discussions. Carwyn Jones isn't here, he will

still be, presumably, leading your party, will he? Do you fancy it? He

has taken the lead not just in Wales but for Wales on behalf of the whole

of the UK. Let's become his but for Wales on behalf of the whole

convention and make sure Wales is strong in the debate.

OK, well I think the debate will go on. Thank you very much to our

panellists. That's all we on. Thank you very much to our

for tonight. The debate goes on social media at

# The Walesreport. Huw Edwards will be back with a new series of the

Wales Report in October. But for now, thanks for joining us,

diolch am Wylio, Nos Da, Good Night.