15/09/2014 The Wales Report

In three days time, the people of Scotland head to the

polls and decide whether or not to break away from the United Kingdom.

Whether it's a Yes or a No, the status quo is not an option.

So what will the result mean for Wales?

Sit tight for a lively half hour here on the Wales Report.

Good evening, welcome to a special edition of the Wales Report,

live from the Senedd on BBC One Wales and BBC Radio Wales.

On Thursday, the people of Scotland will head to the polls to cast one

of the most important votes in the democratic history of the

United Kingdom and the polls suggest it's going to be very close indeed.

Tonight we'll be asking representatives from the four main

parties here for their take on how the result of the referendum could

shape our future here in Wales; will it mean further devolution?

Speaking for Welsh Labour we have Leighton Andrews,

just re-appointed to the cabinet as the minister for Public Services.

We have the leaders of all three oppostion parties

in the Aassembly, Andrew RT Davies of the Conservatives, Kirsty

Williams of the Liberal Democrats and Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru.

Our audience tonight is split between those who support Scottish

Independence and think it's a good thing for Wales, those who oppose,

You too can join the debate on social media using

And straight after this programme the debate

continues at nine on BBC Radio Wales when we'll be taking your calls.

So to kick us off, let's get straight to

the first big question, and it comes this evening from Alex Bird.What

will be the impact of Thursday's vote on the UK as a whole?

Leighton Andrews. It is an exciting time and we will see change across

the UK whether Scotland votes yes or no. I hope Scotland will vote no. I

think we're better together. There will be more powers for Scotland,

more powers for Wales. People will look at the situation in England as

well and will have to be a reform of the second chamber in the House of

Lords so represents the nations and regions of the UK. There is a big

offer available from all the Westminster -based parties. Leanne

Wood for what Cymru. Things have changed already. What we have seen

in Scotland is that people have become engaged and well-informed. I

would say that democracy has been reborn. If we could emulate a

similar national conversation in Wales to which they have had in

Scotland, not only would this be good for Welsh society that I think

it would be good for Welsh democracy. Andrew RT Davies, where

do you stand on this? You used the word impact. It has had made an

awareness through the UK. There will be changes, there is no doubt about

that. The offer on the table should the people of Scotland vote no is

for a dramatic transfer of responsibility north of the border.

You can't take Scotland in isolation but you shouldn't read Scotland for

Wales. I think we have a whole host of different arguments and debates.

We will come onto those. Kirsty Williams, on this point. I think

whatever the results, and I hope Scotland decide to stay with us, I

think they will be a new union, they will be new politics taking power

out of Westminster and bringing it closer to people whether that be in

Scotland, Northern Ireland, in the regions of England and from my

perspective, more importantly, we need home rule for Wales. We have

three parties against independence and we have one in favour. What has

gone wrong with your campaign? Who is to blame for the fact you were 20

gone wrong with your campaign? Who with you. It is easy to sell a

positive. I don't think with you. It is easy to sell a

gone wrong. Those people have had put before them by the no campaign

is the stark reality of what will put before them by the no campaign

happen if you vote yes on Thursday. Have you got that message across? I

have always thought that is Have you got that message across? I

get closer as we got Have you got that message across? I

vote. That was inevitable. That has always been the emphasis. I expected

to see those polls close. I think it'll be just enough. Leanne Wood.

Has the momentum shifted? Is shifting to know? This has been

Has the momentum shifted? Is David and Goliath battle. Nobody

expected the yes campaign to be neck and neck as the out

expected the yes campaign to be neck campaign. What we have had is the

established, Westminster parties campaign. What we have had is the

against the meetings in the Townhall. We have had the corporate

media against social media. It has been a David and Goliath battle and

the Yes been a David and Goliath battle and

possession they are, but they are. I been a David and Goliath battle and

think the time to dissect what went right and wrong will come

afterwards. What is absolutely clear is we have two, those who believe in

a union, have to make a positive case of fight the union should be

reformed, yes, case of fight the union should be

question. For balance, your pro independence. I am definitely

pro-independence and independence. I am definitely

goes, Wales should follow. I feel that we will still be

goes, Wales should follow. I feel The European Union. Independence in

a union? It works in the same way the UK's independence within the

European Union. We're not going completely alone. We are working in

partnership with all the other countries of Europe. Let's move on.

Now let's move away from Scotland and the rest of the UK,

Our next question is from Charlotte Walmsley.

Whatever the result on Thursday, should Wales get more devolved

What do you think, Charlotte? I believe this is a great opportunity

for us to re-examine our position in the UK and I think whether Scotland

stays or goes, it is important we take this opportunity to look at the

situation. The gentleman in the back row. More powers? Who is speaking

situation. The gentleman in the back Carwyn Jones, says he

situation. The gentleman in the back pound that he has no power. He said

he wanted the lockstep, he didn't want it. The Welsh Labour MPs voted

against it. He wanted a want it. The Welsh Labour MPs voted

constitutional convention, Ed want it. The Welsh Labour MPs voted

for the people of Wales? We will take that as a point. In the back

there, the lady in the back. More powers for Wales? No, I would

definitely say no. I would also ask the politicians of keeping the union

together whether the parties the politicians of keeping the union

the verge of break-up perhaps. All respects to Leanne Wood, I don't

support your views. The Nationalists have been putting forward arguments

support your views. The Nationalists of 15 years in favour of separation.

Unionists have not done the same. I think, really, there is lot of work

to be done to bring the UK back together. Let's kick this one off,

Andrew RT Davies. That is constant debate about the responsibilities of

this institution and whatever government should come out of it

should use as an executive. I don't think responsibility should be

transferred just for the sake of responsibility only if it improves

peoples lives. What powers through July as a Westminster government? We

have The Wales Bill going through the House of Commons at the moment

which is dealing with the recommendations in the Silk

Commission. The bill of that for those who aren't familiar, it was a

commission that was set up to look into the financial responsibility

that should be transferred. Number two is currently in discussion. That

would be manifesto commitment territory. We talking about

policing, justice, Assembly Members? Leighton Andrews, they are

offering and David Cameron is saying take these powers and Carwyn Jones

doesn't want to take them. We want the reserve powers model of

devolution rather than the system we currently have. Is that going to get

people going? We want the borrowing powers that are coming, there are

changes underway. What has been good about the debate since the 2011

referendum where we campaigned where laws affecting only Wales should be

made in Wales. I think the people of Wales like devolution and wants to

see it grow. What is now on offer is a debate that we have to have an

it'll be resolved through parties in the next general election. It is in

the long grass in a way. The next general election is six months away.

We have got The Wales Bill. Which powers would relate to see here

now? This is a wonderful opportunity to advance the cause of gaining

extra powers for Wales. What is really important is we are sending a

clear message to the people in Whitehall, who are not going to hand

this stuff over. The conservative with a small c. We have two speak

with one voice. We have to establish a consensus on how we want Wales to

look in the future. For my perspective that is implementing the

Silk Commission and using the opportunity The Wales Bill has to

bring forward the second part. We need to go into the general election

with a very clear look on the second part. Let's avoid the jargon tonight

if we can. Ian Ward, do you acknowledge if more powers come here

less money comes in from the Treasury. -- Leanne Wood. Can I

first of all stay in the -- if that is a no vote, team Westminster have

come up with promises full Scotland to have additional powers. I am not

convinced that will happen. If we go back to 1979 where there was a

referendum in Wales and Scotland, Margaret Thatcher said if Scotland

voted no they would be additional powers on the table and they didn't

happen. The timetable for Westminster is very tight. Also, a

letter I received from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury outlined

why it wasn't possible for Wales or indeed any other part of the UK to

have a different tax regime to place any part on an advantage to another

part. If it is a yes on Thursday, what does that do for independence

for Wales? It opens up the question throughout the whole of the UK. We

have got a concentration of power and wealth in London. It is acting

mainly upper half of the south-east of England. We have the opportunity

the power to be transferred out of London and if that happens there is

an opportunity for us in Wales to have some of that power. A quick

word from the man in the back. What happens to Wales if Scotland votes

Yes in the referendum? Scotland produces about as much renewable

effigy city as the whole of England despite having a small population.

That will leave those with a mountain to climb. -- renewable

energy. We will take another one. The lady in red. I wanted to pick up

on the point that Leanne Wood made. She doesn't believe the Westminster

government will follow through on the promises. I think recent events

in politics will show what happens to politicians who don't keep their

promises especially when they are made as publicly as that. I think

they will do their best to implement what they say they are going to do.

On that, Leighton Andrews, there is a promise to Scotland in a way. If

you vote no matter, you can have the Barnett formula, this many formula.

But you can have more powers to. How does that add up? Let's be clear

about something, Leanne Wood tries to claim that only London benefits

from the UK. Billions comes to Wales through welfare support, through a

whole series of other transfers. We'll know the benefits that brings

us. The gentleman there talked about renewable energy. Scotland is well

in renewable energy through subsidies from London. What we have

got to do now is to ensure we get a fairer funding formula for Wales,

that is critical. On that point let's bring in another point about

the so-called banners for Miller. You are worried about the way it

translates to the many we have. -- the so-called Barnett formula is. In

a yes or no vote, how will that affect our health and education?

I wonder about what it means for our hospitals and services. We have to

look at the financial arrangements. We have already in the government

established the principle of Barnett formula so that all sorts of things

can't get worse but I think we can go further. We can have Wales on

fairer funding because we have not so far had the resources from

Westminster because of an outdated way of looking at that funding. We

have made a commitment to address that so that we can look after

schools and hospitals. Andrew RT Davies, could that lead to more

privatisation of the health service here if the money coming London

means we don't have it to spend on public services. Ultimately, we are

in a union and our transfers resources around the union. Wales

benefits, we are beneficiaries of it. We would not have the health

service or the education system that we have today if we did not have

those resources coming in from the union to support Wales. But what I

want to see is a more economic early active Wales which can generate more

of its own well. So it is working in parallel with the support the union

has given us and with support -- and with ideas coming out of this

building and government ideas coming out of this building and government

idea is that create its own perspective. Can I bring you in on

public services, how could they improve? I agree with the Tories on

this question that we need to create more of R.N. Wealth and reduce

dependence on London. But the way we are funded at the moment is not

fair. There is consensus on that. I think the best chance of getting the

Barnett formula reformed is if the Scots vote yes because then it would

exist as far as Scotland is concerned. Leighton Andrews, you are

the minister for public services, why you making contingency plans?

The SUV gentleman up and the -- the issue that the gentleman brought up

is... We need to ensure that at the next general election we get a

Labour government elected. We had a Labour government before, why did

you not sorted out? We did sorted out, spending increased massively

and has been cut by the Conservatives. But there is this

constant dependence on government giving us the money. If we have

fiscal devolution syllabic of create some of R.N. Wealth and having the

right policy options, we kept some of that wealth here, there would be

an incentive for Leighton Andrews and the worst government to get

things right. And the moment, they can make terrible mistakes with the

economy because it has no consequences. We are getting

devolution for some taxes already. If we have financial devolution

there would be an incentive to get things right and keep the money

here. You as a party would love to get rid of the Barnett formula,

wouldn't you? Lots of other parties would too. But one way of getting

rid of it is by Scottish devolution. -- Scottish

independence. Barnett would die. Some would argue that is the best

thing. I think there is intrinsic value in this union and I think that

there are other Aleutians to the Barnett formula. Hiding of Scotland

-- there are other solutions. Hiding of Scotland is a drastic solution.

We have other ideas. Let's go to the audience. I am supportive of

devolution but there is confusion as to who is accountable. Are you going

to your MP or your AM if there is a problem. There is a problem. Any

Stiggy clarity for the everyday person to know -- there needs to be

clarity. And independence, does that make you think let's have the one

lot of politicians? No, not necessarily. The gentleman down

here. I think if Joel Barnett were alive today he would be one of the

campaigners against the formula. alive today he would be one of the

Talk about it has been going on for decades, it is a clear indication

that we have no real power here in Wales

that we have no real power here in Parliament in the UK

why should they change the Barnett formula? Is Scotland does well to

leave the union and does so, the fact is that Westminster and

Whitehall will do everything they can to keep

Whitehall will do everything they Ireland part of the UK's leading

think Welsh independence would happen. But I

think Welsh independence would would have any and -- an even

greater presence. There would be Tory MPs and we would never have a

Labour government. So what really happens to public services in Wales

is that they would get happens to public services in Wales

that is what the English and the Tories like to do. I think that is a

bizarre thing to say. When you were faced with the financial cliff that

we were faced with in 2010, what you do? You have to rein in spending to

retain confidence of the markets. But going back to the point of the

union and English MPs wishing to take resources away, if you look at

the Barnett formula, England does pretty poorly. So that does not show

that English MPs pretty poorly. So that does not show

in the House of Commons. They appreciate the strength of the

union. -- and MPs do not vote selfishly. I hope that everyone will

appreciate it as they do in Northern Ireland. Scotland voted Labour in

the general election Ireland. Scotland voted Labour in

got a government that they did not vote for. That is what people are

voting for in Scotland. If they vote yes, it

voting for in Scotland. If they vote government they bid for an Scotland,

that is what they will get. They will not get a government imposing

policies like the bedroom tax, will not get a government imposing

mandate that they did not have in their own country. If David Cameron

will to ring you, Leighton Andrews and Andrew RT Davies, and ask you

what Wales wanted, what does Wales want? Want more power, a fairer

funding formula? Which power is exactly? We have made it clear in

our response to silk that we want powers to be made

our response to silk that we want reality is that we are in this

situation because David Cameron did a deal with Alex Salmond to have a

referendum in Scotland without consulting any other part of the UK.

referendum in Scotland without A big mistake. The

referendum in Scotland without put the union in jeopardy. A

majority SNP party won the election. So what are you saying, that they

should not have respect for the devolved settlement? It is not just

about Scotland. Leighton Andrews said that what we want is more

powers, I would be said that what we want is more

whether that is the Labour position or the Welsh governments position?

Because there is a chasm between the Labour Party and the worst

government plasma position especially on criminal justice and

policing. What worries me is if we don't get our act together in Wales,

Wales will be left out of the debate. There is a responsibility on

all of us to come together and speak with one voice to make it clear to

the Westminster government about what we want for Wales. This kind of

arguing will end up with Wales being left on the sidelines and we will be

losers. We need clear consensus moving forward with a clear message

to Westminster about the aspirations of people here in Wales to have more

say over their government. Comments from the audience, the gentleman

here? I had 15 years of what you are saying. You

here? I had 15 years of what you are powerful Wales, you can't have

response military unless you have the power. Unless you can raise the

money. I believe Scotland should vote yes, but now I've changed my

mind because now I believe that if Scotland goes, Wales will be

sidelined altogether. Now I'm for a configuration of states within the

UK. A friend -- federal UK. Let's move on to our final question.

It is from Sahar Faifi. My question is, whatever the result on Friday,

will it be the end of the British identity as we know it? Let's go to

Kirsty Williams first. I think how people perceive their identity is a

complex thing and I don't dig it has a great deal with lines on maps. --

I don't think it has a great deal to do with lines on maps. I am a Welsh

person but I'm comfortable with describing myself as British or

European. That has nothing to do with the lines on maps or even where

power lies. That is how I feel. I am not sure that the vote on Thursday

will change that for many people. I'm frightened that the tone of the

debate has made people choose and that is an uncomfortable place to

be. In terms of Welsh identity, what will it mean? I don't figure for

mean anything at all? The refreshing thing about the debate in Scotland

is that it has been a civic projects and people have been told that

whether they live in Scotland, or regardless of where they live --

where they are from originally, they have a stake. From Plaid Cymru's

position, that is the same. Could Wales become independent if Scotland

goes? It would be a matter for us to assert ourselves and say what powers

we want. For me, it is about holding power in the hands of the people.

There has been commissioned after commission and politicians have

caused more problems than they have helped. Now it should be fully

people to decide what we want to hold and what powers we to share. In

2016, we should have our own referendum and our own written

constitution to be held in the hands of the people. I am proud to be

British and to be Welsh. Most people in Wales do not have problems with

those dual identities. Others have dual -- al identities they are happy

to talk about as well. I worry that if Scotland were to vote yes, that

would be the end of what we know as the British identity. And the final

words to Andrew RT Davies. Being British has always been an evolving

concept throughout the ages. And I believe that we will continue to do

so throughout the 21st century. Very proud to be, Cornish, London... That

is the beauty of these islands, you can travel the length and breadth of

them and you can pick out where you are from the accident that people

speak and the culture in that part of the union and above all the

freedoms that people enjoy. That is something we give up at our peril.

Can I ask everybody, if Scotland says yes, will Wales be because

stronger? I think Wales would be weaker in Scotland voted yes. We

work well with our Scottish colleagues and with Northern Ireland

and England. I hope very much that Scotland won't do that, but whatever

does, Wales needs to step -- step up to the plate to make it clear about

what our destiny is. I want Scotland to be with us around that

negotiation table to shape a union for the 21st-century. I very much

think that we will be stronger and what the representatives of the

Unionist parties have failed to answer, if we would be better

together, why will -- why are we not better already together? Thank you

to our panellists and our audience. I don't know of any review has

changed their mind in the middle of the undecided voters.

Unfortunately that?s all we have time for tonight,

On social media, use the hashtag The Wales Report to have your say.

We?ll be continuing this discussion over on BBC Radio Wales for

the next hour, so you can call me with your thoughts on 03700 100110.

And we'll be back with another debate next Sunday to discuss

the result of the referendum, whatever that might be,

but for now, thanks for joining us. Nos Da i chi - good night.