15/09/2014 The Wales Report


With just days to go to the Scottish independence referendum - what will a yes or no result mean in Wales? Join Bethan Rhys Roberts for a special Wales Report audience debate.

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In three days time, the people of Scotland head to the


polls and decide whether or not to break away from the United Kingdom.


Whether it's a Yes or a No, the status quo is not an option.


So what will the result mean for Wales?


Sit tight for a lively half hour here on the Wales Report.


Good evening, welcome to a special edition of the Wales Report,


live from the Senedd on BBC One Wales and BBC Radio Wales.


On Thursday, the people of Scotland will head to the polls to cast one


of the most important votes in the democratic history of the


United Kingdom and the polls suggest it's going to be very close indeed.


Tonight we'll be asking representatives from the four main


parties here for their take on how the result of the referendum could


shape our future here in Wales; will it mean further devolution?


Speaking for Welsh Labour we have Leighton Andrews,


just re-appointed to the cabinet as the minister for Public Services.


We have the leaders of all three oppostion parties


in the Aassembly, Andrew RT Davies of the Conservatives, Kirsty


Williams of the Liberal Democrats and Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru.


Our audience tonight is split between those who support Scottish


Independence and think it's a good thing for Wales, those who oppose,


You too can join the debate on social media using


And straight after this programme the debate


continues at nine on BBC Radio Wales when we'll be taking your calls.


So to kick us off, let's get straight to


the first big question, and it comes this evening from Alex Bird.What


will be the impact of Thursday's vote on the UK as a whole?


Leighton Andrews. It is an exciting time and we will see change across


the UK whether Scotland votes yes or no. I hope Scotland will vote no. I


think we're better together. There will be more powers for Scotland,


more powers for Wales. People will look at the situation in England as


well and will have to be a reform of the second chamber in the House of


Lords so represents the nations and regions of the UK. There is a big


offer available from all the Westminster -based parties. Leanne


Wood for what Cymru. Things have changed already. What we have seen


in Scotland is that people have become engaged and well-informed. I


would say that democracy has been reborn. If we could emulate a


similar national conversation in Wales to which they have had in


Scotland, not only would this be good for Welsh society that I think


it would be good for Welsh democracy. Andrew RT Davies, where


do you stand on this? You used the word impact. It has had made an


awareness through the UK. There will be changes, there is no doubt about


that. The offer on the table should the people of Scotland vote no is


for a dramatic transfer of responsibility north of the border.


You can't take Scotland in isolation but you shouldn't read Scotland for


Wales. I think we have a whole host of different arguments and debates.


We will come onto those. Kirsty Williams, on this point. I think


whatever the results, and I hope Scotland decide to stay with us, I


think they will be a new union, they will be new politics taking power


out of Westminster and bringing it closer to people whether that be in


Scotland, Northern Ireland, in the regions of England and from my


perspective, more importantly, we need home rule for Wales. We have


three parties against independence and we have one in favour. What has


gone wrong with your campaign? Who is to blame for the fact you were 20


gone wrong with your campaign? Who with you. It is easy to sell a


positive. I don't think with you. It is easy to sell a


gone wrong. Those people have had put before them by the no campaign


is the stark reality of what will put before them by the no campaign


happen if you vote yes on Thursday. Have you got that message across? I


have always thought that is Have you got that message across? I


get closer as we got Have you got that message across? I


vote. That was inevitable. That has always been the emphasis. I expected


to see those polls close. I think it'll be just enough. Leanne Wood.


Has the momentum shifted? Is shifting to know? This has been


Has the momentum shifted? Is David and Goliath battle. Nobody


expected the yes campaign to be neck and neck as the out


expected the yes campaign to be neck campaign. What we have had is the


established, Westminster parties campaign. What we have had is the


against the meetings in the Townhall. We have had the corporate


media against social media. It has been a David and Goliath battle and


the Yes been a David and Goliath battle and


possession they are, but they are. I been a David and Goliath battle and


think the time to dissect what went right and wrong will come


afterwards. What is absolutely clear is we have two, those who believe in


a union, have to make a positive case of fight the union should be


reformed, yes, case of fight the union should be


question. For balance, your pro independence. I am definitely


pro-independence and independence. I am definitely


goes, Wales should follow. I feel that we will still be


goes, Wales should follow. I feel The European Union. Independence in


a union? It works in the same way the UK's independence within the


European Union. We're not going completely alone. We are working in


partnership with all the other countries of Europe. Let's move on.


Now let's move away from Scotland and the rest of the UK,


Our next question is from Charlotte Walmsley.


Whatever the result on Thursday, should Wales get more devolved


What do you think, Charlotte? I believe this is a great opportunity


for us to re-examine our position in the UK and I think whether Scotland


stays or goes, it is important we take this opportunity to look at the


situation. The gentleman in the back row. More powers? Who is speaking


situation. The gentleman in the back Carwyn Jones, says he


situation. The gentleman in the back pound that he has no power. He said


he wanted the lockstep, he didn't want it. The Welsh Labour MPs voted


against it. He wanted a want it. The Welsh Labour MPs voted


constitutional convention, Ed want it. The Welsh Labour MPs voted


for the people of Wales? We will take that as a point. In the back


there, the lady in the back. More powers for Wales? No, I would


definitely say no. I would also ask the politicians of keeping the union


together whether the parties the politicians of keeping the union


the verge of break-up perhaps. All respects to Leanne Wood, I don't


support your views. The Nationalists have been putting forward arguments


support your views. The Nationalists of 15 years in favour of separation.


Unionists have not done the same. I think, really, there is lot of work


to be done to bring the UK back together. Let's kick this one off,


Andrew RT Davies. That is constant debate about the responsibilities of


this institution and whatever government should come out of it


should use as an executive. I don't think responsibility should be


transferred just for the sake of responsibility only if it improves


peoples lives. What powers through July as a Westminster government? We


have The Wales Bill going through the House of Commons at the moment


which is dealing with the recommendations in the Silk


Commission. The bill of that for those who aren't familiar, it was a


commission that was set up to look into the financial responsibility


that should be transferred. Number two is currently in discussion. That


would be manifesto commitment territory. We talking about


policing, justice, Assembly Members? Leighton Andrews, they are


offering and David Cameron is saying take these powers and Carwyn Jones


doesn't want to take them. We want the reserve powers model of


devolution rather than the system we currently have. Is that going to get


people going? We want the borrowing powers that are coming, there are


changes underway. What has been good about the debate since the 2011


referendum where we campaigned where laws affecting only Wales should be


made in Wales. I think the people of Wales like devolution and wants to


see it grow. What is now on offer is a debate that we have to have an


it'll be resolved through parties in the next general election. It is in


the long grass in a way. The next general election is six months away.


We have got The Wales Bill. Which powers would relate to see here


now? This is a wonderful opportunity to advance the cause of gaining


extra powers for Wales. What is really important is we are sending a


clear message to the people in Whitehall, who are not going to hand


this stuff over. The conservative with a small c. We have two speak


with one voice. We have to establish a consensus on how we want Wales to


look in the future. For my perspective that is implementing the


Silk Commission and using the opportunity The Wales Bill has to


bring forward the second part. We need to go into the general election


with a very clear look on the second part. Let's avoid the jargon tonight


if we can. Ian Ward, do you acknowledge if more powers come here


less money comes in from the Treasury. -- Leanne Wood. Can I


first of all stay in the -- if that is a no vote, team Westminster have


come up with promises full Scotland to have additional powers. I am not


convinced that will happen. If we go back to 1979 where there was a


referendum in Wales and Scotland, Margaret Thatcher said if Scotland


voted no they would be additional powers on the table and they didn't


happen. The timetable for Westminster is very tight. Also, a


letter I received from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury outlined


why it wasn't possible for Wales or indeed any other part of the UK to


have a different tax regime to place any part on an advantage to another


part. If it is a yes on Thursday, what does that do for independence


for Wales? It opens up the question throughout the whole of the UK. We


have got a concentration of power and wealth in London. It is acting


mainly upper half of the south-east of England. We have the opportunity


the power to be transferred out of London and if that happens there is


an opportunity for us in Wales to have some of that power. A quick


word from the man in the back. What happens to Wales if Scotland votes


Yes in the referendum? Scotland produces about as much renewable


effigy city as the whole of England despite having a small population.


That will leave those with a mountain to climb. -- renewable


energy. We will take another one. The lady in red. I wanted to pick up


on the point that Leanne Wood made. She doesn't believe the Westminster


government will follow through on the promises. I think recent events


in politics will show what happens to politicians who don't keep their


promises especially when they are made as publicly as that. I think


they will do their best to implement what they say they are going to do.


On that, Leighton Andrews, there is a promise to Scotland in a way. If


you vote no matter, you can have the Barnett formula, this many formula.


But you can have more powers to. How does that add up? Let's be clear


about something, Leanne Wood tries to claim that only London benefits


from the UK. Billions comes to Wales through welfare support, through a


whole series of other transfers. We'll know the benefits that brings


us. The gentleman there talked about renewable energy. Scotland is well


in renewable energy through subsidies from London. What we have


got to do now is to ensure we get a fairer funding formula for Wales,


that is critical. On that point let's bring in another point about


the so-called banners for Miller. You are worried about the way it


translates to the many we have. -- the so-called Barnett formula is. In


a yes or no vote, how will that affect our health and education?


I wonder about what it means for our hospitals and services. We have to


look at the financial arrangements. We have already in the government


established the principle of Barnett formula so that all sorts of things


can't get worse but I think we can go further. We can have Wales on


fairer funding because we have not so far had the resources from


Westminster because of an outdated way of looking at that funding. We


have made a commitment to address that so that we can look after


schools and hospitals. Andrew RT Davies, could that lead to more


privatisation of the health service here if the money coming London


means we don't have it to spend on public services. Ultimately, we are


in a union and our transfers resources around the union. Wales


benefits, we are beneficiaries of it. We would not have the health


service or the education system that we have today if we did not have


those resources coming in from the union to support Wales. But what I


want to see is a more economic early active Wales which can generate more


of its own well. So it is working in parallel with the support the union


has given us and with support -- and with ideas coming out of this


building and government ideas coming out of this building and government


idea is that create its own perspective. Can I bring you in on


public services, how could they improve? I agree with the Tories on


this question that we need to create more of R.N. Wealth and reduce


dependence on London. But the way we are funded at the moment is not


fair. There is consensus on that. I think the best chance of getting the


Barnett formula reformed is if the Scots vote yes because then it would


exist as far as Scotland is concerned. Leighton Andrews, you are


the minister for public services, why you making contingency plans?


The SUV gentleman up and the -- the issue that the gentleman brought up


is... We need to ensure that at the next general election we get a


Labour government elected. We had a Labour government before, why did


you not sorted out? We did sorted out, spending increased massively


and has been cut by the Conservatives. But there is this


constant dependence on government giving us the money. If we have


fiscal devolution syllabic of create some of R.N. Wealth and having the


right policy options, we kept some of that wealth here, there would be


an incentive for Leighton Andrews and the worst government to get


things right. And the moment, they can make terrible mistakes with the


economy because it has no consequences. We are getting


devolution for some taxes already. If we have financial devolution


there would be an incentive to get things right and keep the money


here. You as a party would love to get rid of the Barnett formula,


wouldn't you? Lots of other parties would too. But one way of getting


rid of it is by Scottish devolution. -- Scottish


independence. Barnett would die. Some would argue that is the best


thing. I think there is intrinsic value in this union and I think that


there are other Aleutians to the Barnett formula. Hiding of Scotland


-- there are other solutions. Hiding of Scotland is a drastic solution.


We have other ideas. Let's go to the audience. I am supportive of


devolution but there is confusion as to who is accountable. Are you going


to your MP or your AM if there is a problem. There is a problem. Any


Stiggy clarity for the everyday person to know -- there needs to be


clarity. And independence, does that make you think let's have the one


lot of politicians? No, not necessarily. The gentleman down


here. I think if Joel Barnett were alive today he would be one of the


campaigners against the formula. alive today he would be one of the


Talk about it has been going on for decades, it is a clear indication


that we have no real power here in Wales


that we have no real power here in Parliament in the UK


why should they change the Barnett formula? Is Scotland does well to


leave the union and does so, the fact is that Westminster and


Whitehall will do everything they can to keep


Whitehall will do everything they Ireland part of the UK's leading


think Welsh independence would happen. But I


think Welsh independence would would have any and -- an even


greater presence. There would be Tory MPs and we would never have a


Labour government. So what really happens to public services in Wales


is that they would get happens to public services in Wales


that is what the English and the Tories like to do. I think that is a


bizarre thing to say. When you were faced with the financial cliff that


we were faced with in 2010, what you do? You have to rein in spending to


retain confidence of the markets. But going back to the point of the


union and English MPs wishing to take resources away, if you look at


the Barnett formula, England does pretty poorly. So that does not show


that English MPs pretty poorly. So that does not show


in the House of Commons. They appreciate the strength of the


union. -- and MPs do not vote selfishly. I hope that everyone will


appreciate it as they do in Northern Ireland. Scotland voted Labour in


the general election Ireland. Scotland voted Labour in


got a government that they did not vote for. That is what people are


voting for in Scotland. If they vote yes, it


voting for in Scotland. If they vote government they bid for an Scotland,


that is what they will get. They will not get a government imposing


policies like the bedroom tax, will not get a government imposing


mandate that they did not have in their own country. If David Cameron


will to ring you, Leighton Andrews and Andrew RT Davies, and ask you


what Wales wanted, what does Wales want? Want more power, a fairer


funding formula? Which power is exactly? We have made it clear in


our response to silk that we want powers to be made


our response to silk that we want reality is that we are in this


situation because David Cameron did a deal with Alex Salmond to have a


referendum in Scotland without consulting any other part of the UK.


referendum in Scotland without A big mistake. The


referendum in Scotland without put the union in jeopardy. A


majority SNP party won the election. So what are you saying, that they


should not have respect for the devolved settlement? It is not just


about Scotland. Leighton Andrews said that what we want is more


powers, I would be said that what we want is more


whether that is the Labour position or the Welsh governments position?


Because there is a chasm between the Labour Party and the worst


government plasma position especially on criminal justice and


policing. What worries me is if we don't get our act together in Wales,


Wales will be left out of the debate. There is a responsibility on


all of us to come together and speak with one voice to make it clear to


the Westminster government about what we want for Wales. This kind of


arguing will end up with Wales being left on the sidelines and we will be


losers. We need clear consensus moving forward with a clear message


to Westminster about the aspirations of people here in Wales to have more


say over their government. Comments from the audience, the gentleman


here? I had 15 years of what you are saying. You


here? I had 15 years of what you are powerful Wales, you can't have


response military unless you have the power. Unless you can raise the


money. I believe Scotland should vote yes, but now I've changed my


mind because now I believe that if Scotland goes, Wales will be


sidelined altogether. Now I'm for a configuration of states within the


UK. A friend -- federal UK. Let's move on to our final question.


It is from Sahar Faifi. My question is, whatever the result on Friday,


will it be the end of the British identity as we know it? Let's go to


Kirsty Williams first. I think how people perceive their identity is a


complex thing and I don't dig it has a great deal with lines on maps. --


I don't think it has a great deal to do with lines on maps. I am a Welsh


person but I'm comfortable with describing myself as British or


European. That has nothing to do with the lines on maps or even where


power lies. That is how I feel. I am not sure that the vote on Thursday


will change that for many people. I'm frightened that the tone of the


debate has made people choose and that is an uncomfortable place to


be. In terms of Welsh identity, what will it mean? I don't figure for


mean anything at all? The refreshing thing about the debate in Scotland


is that it has been a civic projects and people have been told that


whether they live in Scotland, or regardless of where they live --


where they are from originally, they have a stake. From Plaid Cymru's


position, that is the same. Could Wales become independent if Scotland


goes? It would be a matter for us to assert ourselves and say what powers


we want. For me, it is about holding power in the hands of the people.


There has been commissioned after commission and politicians have


caused more problems than they have helped. Now it should be fully


people to decide what we want to hold and what powers we to share. In


2016, we should have our own referendum and our own written


constitution to be held in the hands of the people. I am proud to be


British and to be Welsh. Most people in Wales do not have problems with


those dual identities. Others have dual -- al identities they are happy


to talk about as well. I worry that if Scotland were to vote yes, that


would be the end of what we know as the British identity. And the final


words to Andrew RT Davies. Being British has always been an evolving


concept throughout the ages. And I believe that we will continue to do


so throughout the 21st century. Very proud to be, Cornish, London... That


is the beauty of these islands, you can travel the length and breadth of


them and you can pick out where you are from the accident that people


speak and the culture in that part of the union and above all the


freedoms that people enjoy. That is something we give up at our peril.


Can I ask everybody, if Scotland says yes, will Wales be because


stronger? I think Wales would be weaker in Scotland voted yes. We


work well with our Scottish colleagues and with Northern Ireland


and England. I hope very much that Scotland won't do that, but whatever


does, Wales needs to step -- step up to the plate to make it clear about


what our destiny is. I want Scotland to be with us around that


negotiation table to shape a union for the 21st-century. I very much


think that we will be stronger and what the representatives of the


Unionist parties have failed to answer, if we would be better


together, why will -- why are we not better already together? Thank you


to our panellists and our audience. I don't know of any review has


changed their mind in the middle of the undecided voters.


Unfortunately that?s all we have time for tonight,


On social media, use the hashtag The Wales Report to have your say.


We?ll be continuing this discussion over on BBC Radio Wales for


the next hour, so you can call me with your thoughts on 03700 100110.


And we'll be back with another debate next Sunday to discuss


the result of the referendum, whatever that might be,


but for now, thanks for joining us. Nos Da i chi - good night.


With just days to go to the Scottish independence referendum - what will a Yes or No result mean here in Wales? Join Bethan Rhys Roberts for a special Wales Report audience debate.

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