04/11/2015 The Wales Report


04/11/2015

A look at access to cancer drugs in Wales. Does where you live affect what you get? And is there enough scrutiny of the Welsh Government and Assembly members?


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Transcript


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Calls for better access in Wales to new cancer drugs - does

:00:00.:00:09.

Keeping an eye on the decision makers.

:00:10.:00:13.

Do we really know enough about what the Welsh Government and

:00:14.:00:15.

The Welsh Government and the national assembly are too

:00:16.:00:27.

self-satisfied and too smug in terms of what they perceive as openness

:00:28.:00:33.

and transparency. They could go a lot, lot further.

:00:34.:00:35.

And tackling extremism - we look at the work being

:00:36.:00:37.

done within Muslim communities in Wales.

:00:38.:00:39.

Good evening, and welcome to The Wales Report.

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It's estimated that 130,000 people in Wales are living with cancer -

:00:53.:00:57.

it's a figure which is expected to rise.

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A survey being launched this Autumn reports inconsistent access to new

:01:00.:01:10.

cancer treatments in Wales, with concerns that there's huge

:01:11.:01:12.

disparity within Wales and across the UK when it comes to

:01:13.:01:14.

We'll be discussing that in a moment, and you can join in the

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conservation on social media tonight using the hashtag thewalesreport.

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But first, let's hear from Annie Mullholland.

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We have been following her story for some time here on The Wales Report.

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I have really an cancer and it is an enjoyable cancer. I spoke to The

:01:43.:01:51.

Wales Report in 2013 and I just about registered with a GP in London

:01:52.:01:56.

to access my NHS services at and other address in England, and I was

:01:57.:02:02.

on request, really, to get a drug I was denied because I lived in

:02:03.:02:09.

Cardiff. I was facing barriers so, for joining the trial, for accessing

:02:10.:02:13.

a drug I could have, and I couldn't see how I would keep myself a life

:02:14.:02:18.

without help. I felt I think the worst I have ever felt in my life

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and I felt so angry because other people, other women, were getting

:02:25.:02:27.

some treatments and I was not and I felt that was on fair -- keep myself

:02:28.:02:32.

alive. Because I felt discriminated against for the first time in my

:02:33.:02:36.

life and the horror of that feeling, being discriminated against

:02:37.:02:40.

by your NHS, it was the worst feeling of my life and made me feel

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I didn't want to fight as well, I might as well die, because no one

:02:47.:02:51.

would help me live. I would just like to see fairness across the

:02:52.:02:55.

United Kingdom and unfortunately the provision for all very an cancer is

:02:56.:02:59.

grossly unfair. There remains a disparity of access to drugs in

:03:00.:03:05.

Wales. It is very poor and the worst thing is there is no clear criteria

:03:06.:03:09.

by which oncologists or patients know in advance what their treatment

:03:10.:03:16.

will be. If I could say something I would say that if every patient in

:03:17.:03:22.

Wales was as discerning as I am they would be in England banging on the

:03:23.:03:25.

further treatment or they would be demanding fairer access to.

:03:26.:03:28.

I'm joined now by Dr Richard Greville,

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the Wales Director of the Association

:03:35.:03:36.

of the British Pharmaceutical Industry

:03:37.:03:37.

and Plaid Cymru's health spokesperson Elin Jones.

:03:38.:03:50.

Doctor Greville, you have this report out and I know you can speak

:03:51.:03:55.

about that but what are your views on disparity to access to drugs in

:03:56.:03:59.

Wales. There is disparity in Wales, between Wales and the rest of the

:04:00.:04:05.

UK. Certainly we run a survey with YouGov in conjunction with the NHS

:04:06.:04:10.

Confederation in Wales and from that serve the it was interesting to note

:04:11.:04:17.

that 80% of the people surveyed, they thought that more needed to be

:04:18.:04:21.

done in terms of improving access to medicine. Just explain why there is

:04:22.:04:26.

this disparity across Wales, because it is down to the individual health

:04:27.:04:31.

boards, isn't it? It is down to individual health boards in many

:04:32.:04:35.

ways. There are a national assessments of medicines in Wales

:04:36.:04:39.

but below that there are levels of funding decisions that can be made

:04:40.:04:46.

at a local level. We are well aware the Welsh Government is working to

:04:47.:04:49.

consolidate that approach and is on the verge of making an announcement

:04:50.:04:58.

of a new process and we do hope that new one Wales process will be useful

:04:59.:05:01.

in terms of limiting or minimising this disparity. Elin Jones, the

:05:02.:05:07.

Welsh Government would argue that spending perhaps -- per head, no one

:05:08.:05:14.

is at a record high and they are doing what they can and have opted

:05:15.:05:18.

not to go for the Cancer Drugs Fund. The current system of access to new

:05:19.:05:23.

drugs and treatments is dysfunctional in Wales and the

:05:24.:05:26.

experience of Annie Mullholland clearly shows that as does the

:05:27.:05:33.

campaign in Bangor and the inconsistency of funding decisions.

:05:34.:05:36.

You would make all of these available, would you? Avastin would

:05:37.:05:41.

be free to everybody in Wales? I think the first thing to tackle in

:05:42.:05:49.

Wales is to ensure we do not have a postcode lottery. We have people

:05:50.:05:52.

moving from one health board area to another in order to access drugs in

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Wales and surely that should not be a system. For 3 million people

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surely we can have one national system in Wales with transparency

:06:02.:06:05.

and equality for the patients, in being able to access or not, as the

:06:06.:06:12.

case may be, the drugs. The Welsh Government has refused this idea of

:06:13.:06:15.

a Cancer Drugs Fund and in England you could argue it is being wound

:06:16.:06:19.

down as we see further treatment is today being removed again. As the

:06:20.:06:22.

Welsh Government correct not to go down that path, Richard Greville? We

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have welcomed the number of patients treated with the Cancer Drugs Fund

:06:30.:06:33.

in England but we were never a great advocate of the approach taken. We

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think it requires a more holistic approach. It is not just cancer

:06:38.:06:41.

medicines with a low and slow uptake within the UK and we think a more

:06:42.:06:45.

holistic answer would be more appropriate for the uptake of

:06:46.:06:50.

medicines as a whole. You are in the pharmaceutical industry. What about

:06:51.:06:54.

the price of these drugs? A lot of them are extortionate. Is it not

:06:55.:06:58.

down to the industry to lower that price? Indeed it is. The cost of

:06:59.:07:03.

developing medicines increases as time goes on. That is almost

:07:04.:07:09.

exponential on occasion, however we recognise that those costs need to

:07:10.:07:13.

be considered and in fact there is currently a pricing scheme across

:07:14.:07:19.

the UK that means that there is not an increased expenditure on

:07:20.:07:22.

medicines in the UK. Any increase in expenditure is now covered by a

:07:23.:07:27.

rebate from the pharmaceutical companies back to the Department of

:07:28.:07:34.

Health in the UK. Is it down to the drug funds, Elin Jones? Tax rebate

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that has just been referred to means that there is an allocation to Wales

:07:40.:07:45.

of around ?50 million this year -- that rebate. It is currently not

:07:46.:07:49.

ring fenced by the Welsh Government for access of patients to new drugs

:07:50.:07:52.

and treatments and I think it should be ring fenced for that purpose.

:07:53.:07:57.

That is the reason it was there. We should not have decisions based

:07:58.:08:00.

purely on cost when it comes to access to treatments. There are an

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awful lot of statistics when it comes to cancer but one that stands

:08:06.:08:08.

out from the Macmillan charity is that by the end of next year 50

:08:09.:08:13.

people per day it is expected, in Wales, will be diagnosed with

:08:14.:08:19.

cancer. Can Wales Corp? There will be people needing very specialist

:08:20.:08:26.

treatment and some needing more mainstream treatment -- can Wales

:08:27.:08:31.

cope. We will need that to be in the decisions taken by health boards in

:08:32.:08:35.

conditions. Black thank you both, very much. -- thank you both. It is

:08:36.:08:49.

ultimately the health boards making these life and death decisions.

:08:50.:08:50.

The ability to scrutinise people with power

:08:51.:08:52.

is the mainstay of a vibrant democracy.

:08:53.:08:54.

So should we be worried that a handful of politicians

:08:55.:08:56.

and commentators have expressed concerns that scrutiny in Wales

:08:57.:08:58.

is being eroded by the decisions of the Welsh Government

:08:59.:09:01.

and some of the systems of the Welsh Assembly?

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Who said it was built as a beacon of Wales's new democracy, a metaphor in

:09:04.:09:20.

Slate, wood and glass for the age of devolution. There is glass

:09:21.:09:23.

everywhere in this building, the exterior walls, the viewing gallery,

:09:24.:09:28.

the committee rooms, a design choice with a message. In the corridors of

:09:29.:09:33.

power, daylight is the best disinfectant. Transparency,

:09:34.:09:38.

accountability, scrutiny, the ability to see, understand and

:09:39.:09:41.

question those whose decisions affect your life. These are the

:09:42.:09:45.

things that keep a democracy healthy. But recent events have led

:09:46.:09:49.

some commentators to voice their concerns that our democracy is

:09:50.:09:50.

ailing. I've had the pleasure and privilege

:09:51.:09:56.

of watching the National Assembly for Wales since its inception back

:09:57.:09:58.

in 1999, and I have to say I have found the fourth Assembly to be

:09:59.:10:02.

the most closed and the least A tone has been set whereby

:10:03.:10:05.

transparency has become more of a tick box exercise rather than

:10:06.:10:12.

something that is vibrant One of Labour's on backbenchers

:10:13.:10:25.

criticised what she called an unhealthy culture at the top of

:10:26.:10:30.

Welsh Government. Jenny Rathbone was sacked from the chairmanship of the

:10:31.:10:33.

committee after criticising the Government. It was not a scrutiny

:10:34.:10:38.

committee and it was said she breached collective responsibility,

:10:39.:10:40.

but opposition parties are not buying that explanation. There is an

:10:41.:10:45.

honourable tradition of backbenchers from all parties in Westminster

:10:46.:10:49.

being critical friends and that is an important part of the political

:10:50.:10:54.

culture. We have never seen that develop in Wales, where Labour

:10:55.:11:00.

backbenchers have, for the most part, been very reluctant to speak

:11:01.:11:03.

out, and if they do have the temerity to speak out in the eyes of

:11:04.:11:07.

their own Government, they are dealt with very harshly, and I think that

:11:08.:11:12.

is a real shame. The committee system exists to interrogate

:11:13.:11:16.

Government policy and scrutinise legislation among other things but

:11:17.:11:19.

it is not just Labour who have sacked committee chairs who have

:11:20.:11:23.

disagreed with them. The Conservatives and Plaid Cymru have

:11:24.:11:27.

done so as well. I think there is too much power and patron edge in

:11:28.:11:31.

the hands of the Labour Party. They have moved away from that system,

:11:32.:11:35.

incidentally, Westminster and it is now a much more egalitarian system

:11:36.:11:39.

with the best people for the jobs, actually, becoming the committee

:11:40.:11:43.

chairs, and they are protected from losing those roles. If they happen

:11:44.:11:47.

to fall out of favour with the party leadership. But if this use of

:11:48.:11:52.

chairmanship Seppi Matic of a bigger problem? Success of reports into

:11:53.:11:57.

hourss system of devolution reveals we do not have enough backbenchers

:11:58.:12:01.

to properly scrutinise Government policy and legislation --

:12:02.:12:03.

symptomatic of a bigger problem. We have got around 42 serving in a

:12:04.:12:19.

whole range of committees. It means the vast majority of the 42 serve on

:12:20.:12:24.

at least two committees and some on three. With all due respect to time

:12:25.:12:30.

management, it is almost impossible to throw yourself into an effective

:12:31.:12:33.

scrutiny role when you are being pulled from pillar to post and try

:12:34.:12:37.

to understand and dig deep into the issues you are facing as a committee

:12:38.:12:42.

member. And recently there has also been disquiet on what has, on the

:12:43.:12:47.

face of it, been quite an arcane subject. The Welsh Governance Centre

:12:48.:12:53.

it was... The reports provided the facts and analysis on which

:12:54.:12:56.

ministers base their decisions. Hardly anyone ever read them and the

:12:57.:13:00.

Government says pressure on resources meant it was streamlining

:13:01.:13:05.

the system. The numbers game is not a credible explanation for this

:13:06.:13:09.

because it is not of interest to a lot of ordinary citizens but people

:13:10.:13:13.

who represent ordinary citizens, whether that is groups in civic

:13:14.:13:18.

society or academics all obvious of any kind have the right to see the

:13:19.:13:23.

trail as too why a ministerial decision has been made. And they

:13:24.:13:27.

have thrown up some really interesting stories over the years.

:13:28.:13:30.

Journalists have examined more deeply on the basis of having a

:13:31.:13:34.

trigger from the ministerial report so I think the numbers game is not a

:13:35.:13:40.

legitimate argument. I doubt it would save anything substantial in

:13:41.:13:44.

terms of costs and the reality is, this has been a real opportunity for

:13:45.:13:49.

shining a light at the rationale and the Trail by which a decision was

:13:50.:13:54.

reached. And then there is the media. Obviously journalism should

:13:55.:13:58.

scrutinise politicians and their decisions but when you compare the

:13:59.:14:01.

media in Wales with their counterparts in England and

:14:02.:14:05.

Scotland, the industry here seems weak, under resourced and lacking in

:14:06.:14:10.

competition. For those who have spent their careers studying Welsh

:14:11.:14:14.

politics and civil society, this is another illustration of how far we

:14:15.:14:18.

still have to travel in developing a robust culture of scrutiny. I have

:14:19.:14:21.

said very publicly I think there is a lot more to do to enhance the

:14:22.:14:27.

scrutiny we have at all levels of Welsh politics and people make the

:14:28.:14:30.

mistake of thinking we just talk about the scrutiny of the Welsh

:14:31.:14:34.

government but I think we are talking about scrutiny in a much

:14:35.:14:37.

broader way, our public bodies, what our MPs do, it is a pretty immature

:14:38.:14:44.

cultural form of scrutiny that we have at the moment and, in my

:14:45.:14:48.

opinion, that is because we have not really got to grips with the need to

:14:49.:14:53.

have proper forensic and strategic critiques of everything we do

:14:54.:14:59.

post-devolution. The Assembly, in many respects, encapsulates this. It

:15:00.:15:04.

simply does not have the in-built culture of proper robust scrutiny in

:15:05.:15:12.

everything it does. The building with its transparent glass walls is

:15:13.:15:16.

a great home for Welsh lawmakers and it is a very popular visitor

:15:17.:15:20.

attraction, but the Welsh government does not live there, it lives here

:15:21.:15:26.

in the classicism of central Cardiff. You can't see much at all

:15:27.:15:30.

of what is going on inside the building. Transparency,

:15:31.:15:34.

accountability, scrutiny, these things are not considered by glass

:15:35.:15:39.

walls, you have got to build them. The Welsh government and the

:15:40.:15:43.

National Assembly are too self-satisfied and smoke in terms of

:15:44.:15:47.

what they perceive openness and transparency is. They can go a lot

:15:48.:15:52.

further. The minister who organises government business behind those

:15:53.:15:57.

glass walls is Jane Hutt. Do you think the Welsh government

:15:58.:16:02.

demonstrates a serious commitment to scrutiny? It is a priority to be

:16:03.:16:06.

open and transparent and it is very ported, as you say, this is a very

:16:07.:16:11.

test for devolution and we are open and transparent, that people know

:16:12.:16:15.

what we are doing, that they cannot only through scrutiny but the public

:16:16.:16:20.

can engage with us, which is why we publish all our cabinet papers, the

:16:21.:16:25.

minutes for our papers, we have endless statements, scrutiny of us

:16:26.:16:29.

in the chamber, but it really is to make sure that we are open and

:16:30.:16:37.

people can question as and challenge us, and that is very important to a

:16:38.:16:40.

vibrant democracy. In recent months, the decision reports are not being

:16:41.:16:45.

published any more. A Labour backbencher has described an

:16:46.:16:48.

unhealthy culture at the top of Welsh government. Recent evidence

:16:49.:16:54.

would suggest otherwise. I think the issue about decision reports, as I

:16:55.:17:01.

have said already, this was a particular thing that was done, not

:17:02.:17:04.

many people looked at this decision. But isn't it about

:17:05.:17:12.

transparency? We are trying to also, with very constrained public

:17:13.:17:16.

finances, reduce bureaucracy and it is important to look at what we are

:17:17.:17:20.

doing, is it effective, are we getting the message over? We are

:17:21.:17:24.

using a lot more communication through social media, which is

:17:25.:17:28.

important, but we can't just be through social media in gauging with

:17:29.:17:32.

the press, in gauging with the community and people, and just as

:17:33.:17:38.

the constituency AM as well as a minister, it is an absolute

:17:39.:17:41.

responsibility that people can question and understand why we are

:17:42.:17:48.

delivering on them. Is there any suggestion in that that you might

:17:49.:17:54.

reconsider the decision? It does go back to perhaps one particular

:17:55.:17:58.

procedure that we stopped. If you look at the decision reports of the

:17:59.:18:04.

last six months before we did cease them, it was 0.5 per cent of the

:18:05.:18:10.

website hits were about this decision report. But why is that the

:18:11.:18:14.

relevant factor rather than being available to those who want to look

:18:15.:18:19.

in more detail at the chain of decision-making over policy? I think

:18:20.:18:23.

it is very important that we do publish the Cabinet papers but also

:18:24.:18:28.

that we publish on our websites and evaluation of what we are doing. You

:18:29.:18:34.

thought that was the case about ministerial decision reports,

:18:35.:18:37.

otherwise they would never have been published in the first place. I

:18:38.:18:41.

think it is very much in the context of trying to remove bureaucracy and

:18:42.:18:48.

complex of the Indians of what we do, the process of government,

:18:49.:18:56.

reaching out. We want to be open. Carwyn Jones is now running around

:18:57.:19:03.

the country doing car wing Connects because people want to engage

:19:04.:19:08.

correctly face-to-face. We have got to make sure that we are open to

:19:09.:19:15.

accountable, we are... What about criticism from your own

:19:16.:19:20.

backbenchers? There is a clear issue about government appointment for

:19:21.:19:24.

their programme monitoring committee. When was that ever

:19:25.:19:29.

applied to the chair of the committee? When has that ever

:19:30.:19:36.

applied? That committee that the Welsh government appoints and I

:19:37.:19:44.

think we have got to say that in terms, I have been in the Assembly

:19:45.:19:51.

since the start, and a very line to be bench, as it should be, of

:19:52.:19:57.

backbenchers, not just in terms of scrutiny but playing a key part

:19:58.:20:05.

alongside the opposition. I think we have got to be open and

:20:06.:20:14.

transparent, the First Minister, he has answered questions on this

:20:15.:20:18.

point. But also we have to recognise that we have got a very committed

:20:19.:20:23.

group, and it is a group, the largest group in the Assembly. We

:20:24.:20:27.

are a minority Labour government but we have got a committed, loyal group

:20:28.:20:32.

who were elected on a manifesto because they believe in Labour

:20:33.:20:38.

values and playing usually important parts in committees, scrutinising

:20:39.:20:42.

ministers, and I value that. I don't want to have a soft time in a

:20:43.:20:46.

committee, I'd want to be challenged, I want to be scrutinised

:20:47.:20:51.

as a minister, and that is the culture that we want to take forward

:20:52.:20:54.

in the Welsh assembly and the Welsh government.

:20:55.:20:56.

The rise of radicalisation and extremism has dominated

:20:57.:20:58.

the headlines over the past year, with Cardiff in the spotlight

:20:59.:21:01.

after three young men from the capital fled to Syria

:21:02.:21:04.

The UK Government's strategy, Prevent,

:21:05.:21:09.

tries to stop people supporting terrorism.

:21:10.:21:12.

But it's faced criticism, most recently from a former senior

:21:13.:21:16.

Muslim police officer who described it as a "toxic brand"

:21:17.:21:20.

used as a tool to spy on the Muslim community.

:21:21.:21:24.

Mona Bayoumi is a barrister living in Cardiff.

:21:25.:21:29.

She went to meet a group of young Muslims to discuss their experiences

:21:30.:21:32.

and thoughts on how to tackle radicalisation and Islamophobia.

:21:33.:21:44.

I have lived in south Wales since 1994 and I am a practising Muslim. I

:21:45.:21:53.

have wanted to get involved in the local Prevent strategy in Wales,

:21:54.:21:59.

despite my concerns regarding the wider UK Government scheme. This is

:22:00.:22:02.

because I believe it provides individuals from all walks of life,

:22:03.:22:08.

both within the new -- Muslim and wider community, a unique

:22:09.:22:12.

opportunity to get involved in tackling this critical issue of

:22:13.:22:13.

radicalisation. Recent news items have brought a

:22:14.:22:25.

sharp focus on Cardiff in particular. Three young men from the

:22:26.:22:30.

capital 's fled to Syria to join so-called Islamic State, but their

:22:31.:22:34.

actions have had a devastating knock-on effect on the community

:22:35.:22:38.

here. My hope is that members of the community can help shape the Prevent

:22:39.:22:42.

strategy on the ground, making the best decisions to suit the community

:22:43.:22:46.

and without demonising Muslims any further. And young people are key to

:22:47.:22:52.

shaping it. Hello, nice to see you.

:22:53.:22:57.

With recent stories about people fleeing to Syria and even people

:22:58.:23:03.

from our local community in Cardiff, what would you say the impact that

:23:04.:23:08.

has had on is in south Wales? There have been a series of events that

:23:09.:23:13.

have built up to portray a negative image but I don't think that has

:23:14.:23:19.

just shot the external community, I think Muslims themselves are quite

:23:20.:23:23.

shocked as well. People are becoming more wary of Muslims. I feel when I

:23:24.:23:29.

am walking down the street, I feel the stairs and I don't feel quite

:23:30.:23:36.

safe. There has been interfaith events in Cardiff, in City Hall, and

:23:37.:23:40.

we are trying to build bridges. But that is not in the media, it is

:23:41.:23:45.

mostly negative aspects. People believe whatever they see in the

:23:46.:23:48.

media, they don't believe in the other side of the story. The Muslim

:23:49.:23:54.

community in Wales are foremost in wanting to tackle the rise in

:23:55.:23:57.

radicalisation and bring extremism to an end. Groups like so-called

:23:58.:24:03.

Islamic State are an utter abomination and fly in the face of

:24:04.:24:12.

what Islam really stands for. All forms of radicalisation and

:24:13.:24:16.

extremism are targeted under the Prevent strategy but despite threats

:24:17.:24:19.

from other groups like the far right, the narrative from

:24:20.:24:23.

policymakers as reported in the press focuses squarely on Islam.

:24:24.:24:29.

This only adds to the frustration and sense of disenfranchisement that

:24:30.:24:32.

the Muslim community across Wales is increasingly feeling and is plainly

:24:33.:24:37.

a barrier to the success of efforts on the ground to address these

:24:38.:24:41.

issues. It is imperative that these barriers are tackled head-on.

:24:42.:24:45.

I'm joined now by Abdul-Azim Ahmed, the Assistant Secretary General

:24:46.:24:50.

Would you say the Prevent strategy is working? I think, sadly, its

:24:51.:25:08.

success has been limited. We have seen from the Labour government as

:25:09.:25:12.

well as the Conservative government and in each case there has been

:25:13.:25:16.

resistant against it, criticisms, and when we look on the ground that

:25:17.:25:21.

success is few and far between. What is wrong with it? The strategy

:25:22.:25:26.

focuses on ideology at the exclusion of other factors. Focusing on

:25:27.:25:31.

ideology, what exactly does that mean in Cardiff, for example? There

:25:32.:25:38.

are several programmes that can be delivered. We are trying to tackle

:25:39.:25:41.

the messages coming from the extremists at a theological,

:25:42.:25:49.

religious level, and they will say their version of Islam is... But the

:25:50.:25:59.

triggers can be related to peer groups, they can be a sense of

:26:00.:26:03.

grievance, and unless we start having programmes which address

:26:04.:26:08.

these issues as well, it will only be partial coverage. David Cameron

:26:09.:26:11.

suggested earlier this year which is to the effect that there was a

:26:12.:26:16.

condoning, if you like, of this activity within the Muslim

:26:17.:26:20.

community. Do you think he has got a point? I think that is very unfair

:26:21.:26:25.

and it is not accurate. When we look at mosques and imams and the wider

:26:26.:26:30.

Muslim community, the condemnation of extremism has been very clear. In

:26:31.:26:34.

Cardiff, all the imams signed a letter with the theological

:26:35.:26:42.

reputation and it is something where there is very little debate. And it

:26:43.:26:46.

has got to come from there, hasn't it? If you are going to get at these

:26:47.:26:51.

people who are not going to engage with governments or any publicly

:26:52.:26:55.

funded organisations like Prevent, it has got to come from within the

:26:56.:27:01.

community. Partly, yes, but radicalisation is a social problem.

:27:02.:27:06.

It is taking place on the streets, in bedrooms, away from support

:27:07.:27:10.

structures, away from mosques and families, away from schools, so it

:27:11.:27:15.

needs the Government, mosques and religious leaders to be in

:27:16.:27:18.

communication and conversation to bring individuals back into the

:27:19.:27:22.

fold, background support structures that they are not with. Do you feel

:27:23.:27:26.

within the community now that there is a sense of surveillance, if not

:27:27.:27:32.

of spying, if you like, because that is the big criticism of the

:27:33.:27:36.

programme? You need people to say, I am worried about what he or she is

:27:37.:27:41.

up to. The University lecturers union boycotted Prevent for those

:27:42.:27:45.

reasons, they felt it was spying. It is a criticism that is felt very

:27:46.:27:49.

strongly among Muslims and one of the dangers of Prevent is that it

:27:50.:27:53.

can undermine the idea of safe spaces. That in a mosque or school,

:27:54.:27:59.

individuals can start discussing sensitive topics without feeling

:28:00.:28:03.

that is going to be reported. We have had some horrible examples of

:28:04.:28:06.

individual schoolchildren who been reported for simply mentioning

:28:07.:28:13.

eco-terrorism in a French class. That is preventing staff engaging,

:28:14.:28:17.

profession -- critically at the top levels. And as you say, there is

:28:18.:28:22.

blanket condemnation but do you have any sympathy with somebody sitting

:28:23.:28:25.

in a house may be in Cardiff, a young Muslim, totally

:28:26.:28:30.

disenfranchised, totally disengaged from community, no sense of

:28:31.:28:35.

belonging, they are watching videos of the caliphate, can use synthesise

:28:36.:28:40.

with the draw of that? Not really sympathise, the draw is the same,

:28:41.:28:44.

especially with young boys, as of the draw of gang violence and

:28:45.:28:50.

extreme forms of masculinity. They are being attracted to a message

:28:51.:28:54.

which is aimed at the age, aimed at individuals like them, and it is a

:28:55.:28:59.

multiplicity of factors, not just a sense of isolation, a sense of

:29:00.:29:04.

purpose they are being called to. Individuals who are most protected

:29:05.:29:08.

from this are those who have support structures, families and a strong

:29:09.:29:12.

sense of their theology. Those most bundle are the ones cut off from

:29:13.:29:16.

this. That is where the effort needs to come from everyone to Mitchell we

:29:17.:29:19.

are not leaving anyone on the fringes. Thank you very much.

:29:20.:29:24.

Thanks for watching, and if you want to get in touch about tonight's

:29:25.:29:29.

topics or anything else you think we should be discussing, the email

:29:30.:29:32.

Bethan Rhys Roberts takes a look at access to cancer drugs in Wales. Does where you live affect what you get? And shining a spotlight on the Senedd - is there enough scrutiny of the Welsh Government and our Assembly members?


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