10/02/2016 The Wales Report

we ask if the Welsh Government is doing enough to encourage

We ask Ukip's Nathan Gill how his party would run

Wales as we look ahead to May's national

And talking of polling day - how important will social

We'll be sharing some tips from the experts.

I a word of wisdom for party leaders - don't be boring. Stay with us for

the Wales Report. Good evening and welcome

to The Wales Report. Here's a conundrum -

the Welsh Government has exceeded its house-building

target, but there are still concerns that

not enough new homes You can join tonight's

conversation on social media. Well the problem,

according to some experts, is that the Welsh Government's

housing quota hasn't been ambitious enough

- with far more homes One forecast suggests we need

to build an average of 12,000 new homes a year - a rate

we haven't seen in Wales Felicity Evans has

been investigating. Last summer Fiona and her son were

evicted by their landlord after he decided he wanted to sell the house

where they lived. They ended up sleeping on the sofas of friends and

family. I put the stuff in storage and I asked a few friends and family

and we did Monday to Friday and on a weekend we went camping, because it

was summer, or supposed to be summer. It was wet. We went camping

and that went on for five weeks and then the fifth weekend it rained a

lot. The tent got flooded and everything was wet and damp and

everything stunk and I it got to that point, I couldn't do it any

more and the council gave me temporary accommodation. She isn't

the only casualty of Wales' housing shortage. Since 1970 house building

in Wales has fallen by more than 60%. But demand for housing has seen

a steady increase. That has left a lot of people unable to find the

homes they need. If you can't get access to a home that is suitable,

in some kaleses you're almost putting your life on hold, whether

that is starting a family, moving to a new area. It has a real impact on

life. Housing is the corner stone of people getting their aspirations. We

know good quality housing helps people achieve good health. So it is

key to any government and their agenda. The Welsh government said

increasing housing supply is a top priority. It has brought in a help

to buy scheme and met its targets on building additional affordable

homes. But experts fear the targets haven't been ambitious enough and

demand for all types of housing will increase much faster than the Welsh

Government has forecast and one report suggests that on average we

will need to build 12,000 homes a year. That would mean a return to

build rates we haven't seen since the 1970s. Analysts say the Welsh

government has based it is forecasts on the demand that existed during

the recession when fewer houses were being built and people were less

likely to move. They say demand will increase faster in the future than

it did during that recession. Obviously the housing shortage isn't

just about homelessness. It us about suitability. The difficulty of

finding somewhere that is right for you needs and about young adults

living at home, because there are no other options and house prices

rising faster than income. And there are economic costs. Housing brings

big economic Ben fiments in terms of -- benefits in terms of

construction, investment in an area and we all spend money on our houses

and the cost of not building houses. The issues of homelessness is

catastrophically expensive. Looking at purely from an economic

perspective. For social issues they're more acute. There are issues

about the less of investment potential. If an investor wants to

move into the area, what they will be interested in, well, are there

the workers there? Predicting futuring housing -- future housing

need is not an expert science, but Wales does not have enough homes and

without a significant increase in building rates, Fiona's experience

of trauma of homelessness will be shared by many more families. I felt

insecure. Emotional. Just everything was taken out of my hands. I didn't

have a choice with anything. So, yeah, I lost weight, and... Gained a

debt. But yeah, it was very stressful. More stressful than I

thought it would be. But that is the type of person that I am, I look to

sort things out. If something's not right I want to put it right and I

didn't have that choice with this. It was completely taken out of my

hands. So... I hopefully can... Have a choice maybe if there is a lot of

houses that are there. Lesley Griffiths is

the Minister for Communities. She was not available

for interview, but a Welsh Government spokesperson

told The Wales Report: "There has been a long-term

positive trend in Welsh house building, with 20%

more houses started They added that:

the previous year." "Research by

the Construction Industry Training Board shows Wales'

construction industry is set to grow at nearly triple

the UK average, with over 27,000 jobs to be created

in the next five years." Joining me now are the

Labour AM and former minister Alun Davies

and the Liberal Democrat AM Why are we not building enough

homes? There is a range of issues. For social housing the Welsh

Government are not setting an ambitious enough target. In terms of

private sector, it boils down to the profit margins people can get on the

south coast they can sell them on a reasonable price. As they go north

they say there are issues around planning, service and cost and

putting off builders come to Wales. We need to try a find a way around

the problems. Alun, what is your analysis of why house building isn't

there. Targets don't build houses. The Welsh Government has put funding

into schemes to enable people both to buy affordable housing and to

enable social landlords and house builders to build affordable

housing. It is an issue of affordability and availability is

one side of coin. We need to ensure that we have the quality and

standard of housing in the rented seconder, particularly the private

sector. To if you look at the policy approach the Welsh Government has

taken, it has been addressing issues both of quality and standards, but

also of availability and the number of housing built. Can I pick you up

on what you said about targets. What is the points of targets if nay

don't build houses. They're there for a reason. They're there to

provide accountability and you have seen the Welsh Government taking a

creative approach to looking at what lands is available that can be

released to either social landlords or house builders to create the

space to build new homes. We are seeing derelict buildings being

brought back into use to build new homes and we are seeing people being

funded to buy their own homes. You see a number of policy options. All

of which are designed both to enable people to buy homes to build homes

and then to ensure that the homes that are rented by people are of a

sufficient quality. On the target issue, it is one of main yard sticks

we have, what should the target be. First can I agree targets don't

build houses in the private sector. But in public housing that is the

mark that the Welsh Government should be putting in money to. The

Welsh Government has set a target of 10,000 homes in five years. But the

report that was referred in the report said they need 12,000 a year

and over 2,000 should be social housing. So my view is the Welsh

Government's target in terms of social housing should be doubled to

start to try to catch up so those homes are available for people who

can't afford to buy their property. We need to find ways of people

getting on the to the housing market. The help to buy scheme,

started by the coalition government, is great. We want to look at rent to

own schemes where your rent counts towards ownership. The problem is

getting a deposit to your mortgage. That is something that must be

overcome. On social housing, do you think the target needs to be doubled

and people know what they're trying to measure? The target has been

increepsed, because of success -- increased, because of the success of

policies. So you are seeing targets increased as we succeed in building

new homes. What we are going to do in the manifesto is to actually

describe how we intend to continue the success in building homes for

people, affordable homes across the whole of Wales. I will agree with a

number of points that Peter has made. This is one of great

challenges facing us. Peter described the number of homes needed

for young people, but also at the other end of the age range, for

older people and people affected by the bedroom tax and want to down

size and need extra care and supported housing, all these are

areas where we have got to address housing need and supply. And one of

the great successes of the last few years has been that holistic

approach to housing where we have seen support for building, but also

a drive to improve the quality and standards and we need to do both. If

it is a holistic approach, why are we in a position where we are

talking about a serious shortage? Because the Welsh government hasn't

taken that holistic approach and aren't setting ambitious new targets

and in terms of private sector, there are still, you talk to small

builders in Wales, they think there are obstacles in their way in terms

of planning and cost of attaching to the statutory services and other

issues. I think we need to review of what the obstacles are so we can

encourage homes to be build and if possible cut the cost to builders so

they can build more houses further north. Can we expect Labour to say

it will take the brakes off in both sectors, social and private sector?

I think you, when you see the manifesto, you will see policies

that respond to the needs of the people that we saw. Not empty

promises, but but solid programmes for housing of the standard and

quality people want. I think when you bring those things together what

you have is a policy that addresses our needs today and tomorrow. Thank

you. There are just three months

until the National Assembly elections and as part

of BBC Wales' How Wales Works season, the Wales

Report is speaking to the main party leaders

in Wales to find out how they'd run things if

they won power in May. Over the next five weeks we'll be

speaking to the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru,

Conservatives and Labour, but first tonight is Ukip's leader

in Wales, Nathan Gill. Ukip are gearing up

for a campaign which could see them win AMs

for the first time, but some conflict over the selection

of candidates is also Professor Richard Wyn

Jones from The Wales Governance Centre at

Cardiff University takes This is a hugely significant

election for Ukip. In the past, Wales has been you know quite weak

in terms of Ukip support. But that has changed in the last few years.

It is now one of the areas where they can hope to do well and with

the semi proportional system that we have gives them a real chance of

actually having a block of elected representatives in a UK-based

legislature. Nathan Gill owes David Cameron a debt of thanks. If the

European referendum is held pretty close to the Assembly election, that

is going to be perfect for Ukip. It will put them in the shop window in

a way they could scarcely dream of in other circumstances. So the

timing of the EU referendum is crucial. If it is held at the end of

June, then that is going to be really great news for Ukip.

The quiz and themselves in this context presumably having his knees

and feet of Wales. He is 55 50s and five have is a visa. You see full

and this Joining me now is UKIP's leader

in Wales, Nathan Gill. With his thesis is this you? I

believe to resign and 50. For you, that his faith. Full or not

We believe we will get people elected to the Assembly. It is the

consensus feeling, is it a gamble? Everything in life is a gamble.

Let's talk about the people you would like to be elected with in

that case and pluck a name out of air and say Neil Hamilton, who has a

controversial past. Is he the type of person you would like to serve

with? Your commentary was right in the respect that it is a gold fish

bowl the Welsh Assembly. It is even designed to look like one. So we do

need to have a cohesive team and that is what I have been pushing

for. We need people who can work together as that team for five years

for the full term. Because it would be a disaster if they were split and

people left or we couldn't work in that cohesive manner. I feel very

strongly that the membership in Wales will make the right decisions,

they will pick people that they want to represent them and whatever team

they give me, and if I'm on that team as well, we will work together.

I am convinced. If you were drawing up a list of ideal people to serve

with would Neil Hamilton be on the list. We are in the middle of a

membership selection process. You must have a view. I do, but it is

unfair of me to give that view. You hinted a team that works together

and a cohesion and a message all the viewers would understand, that makes

political sense, where does somebody like Neil Hamilton fit into that

picture. Dooning he would fit? . If he members decided that was the

case, we would make it work. But it is not ideal? During this election

process which we are still in the middle of, I can't comment on

individuals who are putting themselves forward. I'm thinking

about the kind of individuals you would like to serve w because you

are asking people to vote for your party and your view as leader about

the kind of people you would like to see elected with you, is very

important. That is why I'm asking. My view of leader has been

petitioned to our NEN and C and we have a full grass roots, the members

themselves are going to be selecting the list and ranking in it. That is

my views have been expressed. So let's take a principle instead that

local parties should choose people with strong local links. Is that

important? Well of course, because the members need to know they can

rely on whoever is going to be representing them. They need to know

who it is. That is representing them and I think that because it has gone

back to the regions will decide who is going to be ranked on the

regional list for them and they will make the right decision. Are you

against parachute on the fourth of this is my first have people

standing on the low-fat and 70 four that. That as path of what roles as

Nigel Farage has in this process is Canvas selection, is his role. He is

on the CV of five. You are viewing the facing.

We had a flat fee of less than them. We have that.

It would be hypocritical too say you got it wrong. This is a national

legislature and an opportunity for Ukip to show we can be disciplined

and if you elect us, we can and we will do good things for Wales. The

initial referendum, that was the decision of the Welsh people to set

up the Assembly was in 97. Yes. It took a long time for you to accept

that decision? Well, as you said it was very close and for a long time a

lot of people were still undecided about the Welsh Assembly. If you ask

a lot of people in North Wales a lot of people have a negative feeling

about the Welsh Assembly. Devolution to a greater extent has failed the

people of Wales, because the three main areas that we are bothered

about through devolution of the NHS, education and the economy, we are

doing much worse in now than 16 years ago when devolution started.

So you can understand why the people of Wales would feel that actually

those people in Cardiff Bay, the bubble in Cardiff Bay, don't

represent us in Wrexham and all along the north Wales coast people

feel that it is all Cardiffcentric and I understand that. We have got

to make devolution work. We need it to be actually true devolution,

where it is brought closer to the people. Setting up huge massive

Kuehne sill -- councils, taking your local legislature further from you I

believe is a mistake. Yes, 22 councils are too many. But if your

councillor who lives at the end of the street has to go on a 50-mile

journey to the council chamber, are you really going to be represented?

Of course not. We want devolution bringing it closer to the people of

Wales. You are saying to viewers that you are a believer in the

institution of the National Assembly and Welsh Government and that there

is no question of you let's say you go to the European Parliament, that

is not an institution you believe in. Absolutely. But you would be

elected to an institution that you did believe in. That is clear is it?

Yes. In the European Parliament we, there are certain things we do not

participate in and will never ever vote to give the European

institutions any more power. We will never vote to give them more money.

We always vote against that and we are clear, whereas this institution,

the Senedd, it is there for the people of Wales and must be used

properly and it must be improved. Because it has not dlied for us --

delivered for us yet and if we are there we can be a force for good. It

is a crucial point. Because we heard Richard refer to it at the end of

his contribution there, would you be going to the Senedd with a view to

playing a constructive part. Absolutely. Or going there to play

really a destructive part? No, you kitchen is often seen -- Ukip is

seen as an we are against everything party. We are for more than we are

against and this devolution settlement has not worked, not

because we need more powers, it is because the power they have got have

been used badly. The spending priorities have not delivered for

the people of Wales. We want to be a constructive part of the Assembly

and be there to get the voices and the views of those people who vote

for us heard and we need to make sure that actually people start to

believe in the institution for the right reasons. 42% of people voted

in the last Assembly elections. How many will vote in this. People are

voting with their feet by ignoring it. That is not good for democracy

and not good fofrer for the -- for the Welsh Assembly. We need to see

that people believe their voice will be heard and be acknowledged and the

money we get is spent in a sensible ways in ways that win benefit our

children and our grandchildren. Thank you.

For many of us social media is becoming a bigger

The role it plays in political campaigns and elections is becoming

Just think of the Scottish referendum on

independence, or indeed the current race for

And what about the social media scene here in Wales?

Are politicians using it with the kind of

The Guardian's Social and Community editor Elena

Cresci gives us her take on what role social media could play.

It feels like social media is every where. It is a big part of world we

live in and it is pretty much my job. It is a great thing. Because it

gets people talking. Or typing. Politicians in particular are

starting to see how personal communication with voters is just a

click away. They said 2015 would be the first social media election,

except that wasn't quite true. They said the same thing about 2010. The

Scottish referendum, now that was a master class in using social media

for campaigning. What role will social media play in the Welsh

Assembly election? Get back to basics. Wales isn't like this place.

There are still areas where mobile and online connections are not that

great and in this case, that is kind of an issue. Another thing to

remember is that getting through to that digital savvy electorate can be

a good way of getting to that crucial younger audience. Twitter

and Facebook are more established and ready to play a part in

politics. Social media likes and follows do not count for much. It is

a bit superficial. Social media hype can be a flash in the pan. For

Leanne Wood, Twitter went wild after that showdown with Nigel Farage. On

twitter, Plsid has 20,000 followers. -- Plaid. It recently came out the

Conservatives spent more than ?100,000 a month on a Facebook app

in the run-up to the general election. Perhaps it pays to cash in

on social media. The assembly election in May will be interesting.

It has been all go in Westminster with big changes to the Labour

Party. Who knows what will happen in Wales? The leadership really is up

for grabs. Social media did not predict the results of the general

election, neither did the polls. Party leaders should not be boring.

I'm joined now by Dr Rebecca Rumbul from Cardiff University

and Jess Blair, from the Institute of Welsh Affairs.

I am just wondering, in a Welsh context, specifically, can we look

forward to an election which will do something different with social

media in May? In a word, no. I do not think we are comparing

like-for-like. The Welsh context has always been different. It is

interesting that Eleanor picked up on it in the video. The Tories in

the general election really targeted the campaign. Wells does not have

the capacity. We do not have the funds. It is a different set of

circumstances. The way we use social media and the way that Welsh

politicians use social media, what is your reading of the levels of

sophistication, compared with the rest of the UK? I do not think Welsh

politicians are sophisticated and how they use social media. I find my

feed filling up with pictures of politicians at a hospital or a

school. That is not engaging to meet all interesting to me. What does

engage? First, what does engage people? People want to know what

you're going to do for them. It is not enough to post a picture of

yourself at school and say, I support my local school. We are

talking about going into election. People want to know what this person

will do for me. What are their views? Is that really a manifesto

that has been spread out on social media? Does not sound terribly

exciting the message is there have been crowd sourcing projects that

social media is one of the tools of engagement. That is a big lesson. It

is not a panacea, it is one of those things. You have to try a selection

of different ways of engaging people to see what works. Generally it is

making question is a bit more relevant to people. For example, we

did a project around cancer care and how to improve that. The question

was, how can we improve your cancer experience? Where is Wales in terms

of its ability to provide the kind of infrastructure? It is just

getting online and having decent mobile coverage which allows you to

have 4G and have a decent experience on social media. Where are we on

that? In Wales we have the lowest level of digital literacy. They do

not have the skills to get online, let alone have a Twitter account.

Internet penetration is the lowest in the UK. Without those basic

things, we're not going to have the social media election we have been

talking about. That is why it is so important to use a package of tools.

It is about getting consistent messages through social media. A

very quick question to you both. If you were advising people taking part

in this election coming up, given there are very big questions at

stake for the future of government in Wales, what would you one bit of

clever advice be to people? You said don't be boring but what would your

advice be? To have one consisting campaign messaging use it in a

variety of ways. Tested and work out what works and what is working on

the doorstep. They might be two separate things. Twitter is an echo

chamber. You have a self reinforcing situation. You need to find a way to

actually engage those people. That will not be through Twitter, it

would be through some of the more traditional manners of campaigning.

Anchor you both for coming in. That is it for tonight. If you would like

to get in touch via e-mail us or follow us on social media. We will

be back next week. Thank you for watching. A very good night.