24/02/2016 The Wales Report

are drawn - but just how different is the political landscape in Wales

today compared to the last referendum on Europe?

We ask Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood how her party would run Wales

as we look ahead to May's assembly election.

Is Wales doing enough to harness its renewable energy?

Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.

The EU referendum has been described as a once in a generation decision -

and true enough, the last time the British people were given

the choice was over 40 years ago in 1975.

Back then, Wales, along with the rest of the UK,

voted overwhelmingly to stay in what was then called

There are signs that Wales has become more Eurosceptic since then -

a recent surge in support for Ukip here could translate to Wales

being the only devolved region to favour Brexit.

I'll be talking to two people who were there for that first

referendum in 1975, Lord Peter Hain and economist Patrick Minford

in just a moment and you can join tonight's conversation on social

media - something not possible in 1975.

The hashtag is thewalesreport. But first we go back to the future

to see what we can learn from that vote 40 years ago.

And just a warning - there are some very serious flares

Yesterday Mr Wilson made a recommendation that we should stay

in the common market. Let me finish. I think I have got the message. Too

much detail, far too many statistics. There is a good deal of

confusion. From politics to fashion sense many things have changed since

1975 but one thing is the same. The old journalist trek of going on the

streets to get opinions of the people before the vote. I would like

the country to stay in, it would be better for all of us. It is a shame

because I have seen what the EU has done to less well off

Germany gets richer and other countries get food.

Germany gets richer and other ending up the same way. It is a good

thing. may sound familiar Wales is a

different place and in recent years there are

different place and in recent years increasingly Eurosceptic. There may

be two reasons. Many people in Wales increasingly Eurosceptic. There may

do not realise some of the benefits that come from membership of the

European Union. They do not realise that some of the European Union

funded projects in their Kennedy have been supported by the European

Union. Then there is the more political dimension. The mainstream

parties have traditionally been in favour of remaining within the EU is

now in recent years with the rise of Ukip what we see is a party

now in recent years with the rise of a different message, something

different to offer, and they have been trying to persuade

different to offer, and they have of Wales for many years that they

may be better off without of Wales for many years that they

This is set in a different context. Europe has changed dramatically. 28

member States today. Just nine European community members in 1975.

The UK is a totally different place. In the 1970s the impact of drawing

from Europe on our battered economy was at the forefront of people's

minds. But times have changed and the British economy is now one of

the strongest performers in Europe. Devolution has transformed the face

of British politics. Wheels voted overwhelmingly to stay a member of

the European community back in 1975. -- Wales voted overwhelmingly. Topic

opinion since then has been in favour of remaining eight member but

it recently we have seen a change in public opinion. Ukip is expected

it recently we have seen a change in get seats in the assembly in May.

There has been a change in public opinion. The terms of the debate may

have changed but 40 years on we may still see familiar faces on the

campaign trail. While we can all learn from history does not always

repeat itself. Joining me now is

the economist Partrick Minford and Labour's

Lord Peter Hain. Let us go back to 1975. The end

campaign had all the party leaders, all the money, all the media. It was

not a fair fight. Unlike this one. It is a different fight this time.

What is mainly different is that then we were 14 to stay in Europe

having only been in the few years. Now we have been in over 40 years.

We have seen the benefits of huge investment from outside Wales coming

into Wales in order to benefits not just from the opportunities in Wales

but to be part of the single richest market in the world, to trade our

services into the rest of the European Union. Why would we want to

leave? He won an election on the basis of a referendum. It is a huge

gamble. It is. The situation is different from 1975. We are now a

successful economy and Europe is not looking good at all. In those days

we were the sick man of Europe and Europe was successful. We hoped to

improve our performance by joining. Now the boot is on the other foot.

The problem is that Europe is a bureaucratic entity. We have no

influence ultimately on the qualified majority voting for the

single market. It brings in regulations that are hostile to our

free-market traditions here. It is trying to become a superstate in

order to create this architecture to deal with the problems of the euro.

It is now threatening as in quite a big way. Peter says it is a great

thing to be part of Europe. We have to remember that this single market

as a protectionist organisation that raises prices to the British

consumer. Back in 1975 the in the campaign was criticised for being

scaremongering. There is a danger of that again in this referendum on

both sides. There is a lot at stake. Half our trade is with the rest of

the European union. I cannot believe how Patrick and others just brush

this aside. There are around 200,000 jobs in Wales that are dependent on

being part of that giant treating block. In 1975 it was the Battle of

shopping baskets. It was about the economy. Is this going to be about

the economy or is going to be about immigration? The big issue is

self-government. It is trying to become a superstate. The British

have always wanted self-government. They want control of the borders and

economy and they have a system called democracy which the EU does

not have. But is the main thing it is about. As for all these vaunted

advantages of being in the EU, this is nonsense. It is nonsense began on

a clean because studies show the reverse is true. You want the Norway

model? I do not. I want featuring outside the EU. Back to the global

market that we once had in the 19th century and early 20th century. This

is harking back to a golden past that does not exist any more. A

golden future. You should be in favour of competing in level markets

globally not inside the protected market of the EU. We use the giant

power of the European Union to negotiate trade deals with China and

India and the rest of the world. We have the strength of Europe to do

that. We would have to negotiate individually as a single and ice

with Britain. That would weaken Wales and the UK and leave us

isolated and alone. And all sorts of ways. Security, borders, prosperity

is all tied up with our neighbours, the European Union and Patrick is

offering no clear alternative nor the other she wants to get out. It

is a leap into the dark. We do not know what the future holds.

Self-government will be set our own relationship with this mammoth

declining dysfunctional body on our borders. We have a new relationship

with them and we approach the world market as a self-governing three

cheating nation. Trade agreements as a red herring. I could explain to

him but it would take too much economics to explain to him why he

is wrong on this. If big announcement at the Vale of

Glamorgan. 750 jobs. We are in the European Union. It is irrelevant, he

says. For many businesses it is irrelevant. We are committed by

Europe. Even though many of our companies do not sell to a Europe

which is a big problem, our labour market is regulated, industry is

regulated. The structure of the economy is warped by European

protectionism. We influence those decisions. Britain is very

influential. I have been there. We are protected by those regulations

when they trade with other countries. A taste of things to

come. Thank you. Before the referendum of course,

there's the small matter As part of BBC Wales's How Wales

Works season The Wales Report is speaking to the main party

leaders in Wales to find out how they'd run things if

they won power in May. We've spoken to Ukip

and the Liberal Democrats and over the coming weeks we'll hear

from the Conservative and Labour leaders.

Tonight it's the turn of Leanne Wood, the

leader of Plaid Cymru. Her party is hoping not just

to bounce back from its worst ever performance in an Assembly election

in 2011 but to form the next Dr Bela Arora from the University

of South Wales takes a look It is interesting looking at the

project with Leanne Wood in Plaid Cymru. She has made gains that go

back to the leaders debates in 2015. She will be hoping there is still an

element where she can bounce on the back of that. But actually the fact

that Plaid Cymru have been in discussions around building a packed

in the election says a lot about the levels of the confidence. They

realise that something has to change to give them that step change and

help them move forward. This is an important time of change for Plaid

Cymru. They have potential in terms of a solid support, a good base of

support but they are looking for different ways to make extra gains.

Let's look back at devolution so far. Labour in power for 17 years.

Why do you think they have been in power for 17 years? Why have you

failed to the persuade electorate that you offer an alternative? They

have not held power alone, they have been coalitions as well. But the way

that the electoral system is configured is helpful to the support

that Labour have in the concentration of seats that they

have across the south Wales belt. But that does not mean it is a

system that is not impossible to break through and given that we have

not had any single vote cast yet and that polls have got it wrong,

particularly in last year's election, I would say that nothing

is inevitable about that result. In 2011, you slipped back. Devolution

could have been a platform for you to grow and grow. You slipped back,

why was that? We have been a junior partner in

why was that? We have been a junior we managed to get a lot of things we

wanted achieved achieved, but it is difficult for parties

wanted achieved achieved, but it is gains in subsequent elections and I

think we gains in subsequent elections and I

the country before the party when we went

the country before the party when we things are very different now. We

have had 17 years of a Labour government and they are found

wanting in so many areas. Our economy is weak, and when you

wanting in so many areas. Our at the health statistics, the

education statistics, we are failing in so many areas and people have a

clear choice in this election, either to carry on

clear choice in this election, continued failed model that we have

had for the last 17 years or to do something different and Plaid Cymru

is ready to offer that alternative and give the people an opportunity

to do something different. You said you paid the price for being a

junior partner in a coalition so you will not go there again? I am not

going to will not go there again? I am not

but I am not going to spend all our time talking about various deals.

You have ruled out a deal with the Conservatives, you are not ruling

out a deal with Labour? I have ruled out a deal with the Conservatives

because ideological lead they are completely different to Plaid Cymru.

Given the cuts they are making from London, it is difficult... Why not

rule out Labour to? You paid the price, you said that. Why not say a

vote for Plaid Cymru will not be able to proper Labour? I don't want

there to be a coalition after the next election. I wanted to be a

Plaid Cymru government and we have worked hard, put together a

programme, we have got three ambitions and nine steps to achieve

those ambitions in order to transform Welsh public services and

the economy and that is what I want people be voting on. But they are

sophisticated -- sophisticated now in terms of deals but the electorate

would like to know in principle whether you would once again for

radio with Labour and you are saying, maybe? I have ruled out a

deal with the Tories, that is clear. Everything else is on the table.

What it is ever to now is for the people to have their say in the

election, and we should not second-guess or try to decide for

them. So you might well end up propping up a Labour government? I

want there to be a Plaid Cymru government, that could be a minority

government, but I want is to go into this election with our programme and

the extent to which parties will cooperate after the election is for

people to decide. So why are we pushing for a pre-election deal with

the Greens and the Liberal Democrats last week? I wanted to get to the

point where we had the best possible option, the best possible

alternative to another five years of a Labour government. We have already

seen the damage that 17 years of Labour has caused for us. We must

have an alternative for that now. You just said it is at the people

and last week you were trying to do a deal before the election. But you

have talked about transparency as well and what I was hoping to get to

by talking to other parties was a programme that we can organise joint

lead that gave us an alternative to another five years of Labour. I

accept that given that those talks did not get anywhere, our job is

going to be made much more difficult. Nonetheless, it is not

impossible and there is nothing inevitable about this election

result and I have got an excellent team and you will see when it is

published, a fantastic, strong manifesto. We have done everything

we can do in terms of offering that alternative. Now that people can

decide what they want to do with the Welsh government. We heard about

confidence and there, the fact that you are trying to do a deal ahead of

the election, she suggests, she suggests there is not enough

confidence there. Another thing, you are standing in the Rob Verbakel you

are also standing on the list. Does that show confidence in you as

leader of the party or do you need an insurer 's policy? I have every

confidence in my programme and in my candidates and the reason I am

standing in two areas is because that is the system and that is what

the system allows. When I first announced I was standing at the

system was different and the rules have since changed. We have moved

with the times. But if you were really confident, you would not need

to be on the list. I have confidence in my programme, believe me, and you

will see why when it is published. It is an excellent piece of work and

it offers solutions to the problems people have identified

in their daily lives. It has three areas, health, education and the

economy, and we have listened to people in every part of this

country, we have not been focused in one part of the country like the

current government, look at the way they are spending on the M4, for

example. I have been out to almost every community in this country and

the programme is a reflection of what they told us. Aston Martin

today, you surely welcome that. They are getting there, aren't they, on

the economy, the Labour government? That is one piece of very good news

but if that was set in the context of a 20 year economic plan which was

designed to transform our communities, get people into

high-paid jobs, it is news to be welcomed without question, but what

we don't have with this government is that long-term plan and that

joined up thinking which is why they need to be replaced. You are on the

left of politics, it is a crowded place in Welsh politics, what is

going to make you stand up with these politics -- policies in this

election? They all stand for better public services, the Lib Dems last

week, it is difficult to disagree with that. What is going to make

Plaid Cymru standout now that you are sort of pushing independence

away? Labour have already stolen a number of our policies. We have

published them in quite some good time and with their pledges that

they announced recently. First of all, we have seen a lack of

ambition. I heard a number of their spokespeople almost saying, we are

under promising, we are not really raising expectations, is what that

says to me. What you will see when Plaid Cymru's manifesto is published

is something radically different. It is a programme for transformational

change over two terms of a government. It is achievable within

the existing powers framework and the existing financial envelope, all

of it is deliverable, but it is highly ambitious and it is designed

to seriously up our game as a nation. You have made it clear you

want to be First Minister. If you are not in May, what will you do? My

political programme is a long-term one and it involves building up a

nation and we are not going to do that overnight. This next election

is a step towards achieving that. You are going to win it? You have

said you are going to be First Minister. My project is a long-term

one and I intend to see it through. But you have always said you will be

First Minister in 2016. Are you saying maybe not now? I am going

all-out to win this election and we should not write off the result

before a vote is cast. But if it is not a good outcome for Plaid Cymru,

what then? I am in it for the long game and we have got an awful lot of

work to do before we turn around the Welsh economy and build the

institutions that every nation has and we have got an awful lot of work

to do in terms of our public services as well, our health and

education. We will not rest until these problems are tackled and they

are not going to go away just after the outcome of an election. So if

you don't make any gains, Leanne Wood stays on? I am not intending to

go anywhere. In some areas of Wales,

communities have long been making the most of natural resources

like the sun, wind and water But changes in Westminster

to the way these projects are funded Llangattock Green Valleys

is a community energy project in the Brecon Beacons,

using local streams Its chairman Andrew Fryer tells us

why he thinks these projects are important and how politics

is getting in the way Lancaster is a village of about a

thousand people based in the Brecon Beacons National Park, and being

Green has always been very important. On this property we have

got quite good scope for being Green. We have currently got a plan

to build six hydroelectric schemes and those are fully financed. We are

now looking at doing the rest of those schemes. The main natural

resource is obvious either landscape and so we have hiked and we are

ideally suited for hydroelectric. So this is one of the hydro schemes we

have built. This is the smallest one. At the top you have got a small

dam, only about a metre high, which catches the water and it goes down

this pipe and it goes down the hill into the turbine house. OK, this is

the turbine house and it is where the final transformation occurs from

water coming down the pipe into electricity and the turbine down

her, it is the generator in here. So we, in effect, sell all the

electricity into the grid. That is not really meet our aim is because

it means there is a lack of association between the provision of

the electricity and buying it. What we would like to do is to pull off a

mechanism for people to buy their local electricity. Many communities

should get involved in doing this at some level or other. It is not just

about building hydro schemes or wind schemes or anything else, it is

about taking charge of your own destiny. Without a single doubt, the

biggest difficulty that we have faced has been politics. The

politics of renewable energies. It takes about four years from, this

looks like a nice stream, being billed as a hydro scheme. In that

time we could have seven or eight major policy changes. There is

definitely a conflict now on this issue. The valley is one of our

members and they are heavily involved. They have been successful

in installing schemes. The scheme is owned by local people. How are you

doing? Very well. Come this way. Why do you think it is that Wales has

not taken this opportunity when somewhere like Scotland, which has

been under the same Westminster regime, has managed to pull off the

schemes. Scotland recognised the opportunity and in Wales we did not

recognise that and Scotland set targets for local ownership of

energy which led to more practical support from local authorities. What

is the potential if more communities did what we have done? There is huge

potential for communities in Wales. We have got the resources, we have

got dedicated people who want to see this happen. The people involved

have recognised the opportunity that is there but also selling energy to

local consumers directly from local projects is the key thing because

that really does benefit all the people in Wales because everyone in

Wales has the opportunity to buy energy cheaper from a local source

which is renewable and we can start to address some of the issues around

fuel poverty as well. We really need to make that transition now and that

should be in the next Welsh government Parliament.

I'm joined now by Grenville Ham from the Green Party

We see that project there about how cost effective is something like

that? Typically they would pay back their loans in eight or nine years.

In terms of how much energy it produces? 50 or 60 homes here and.

20%. Is this what we want across Wales that we all buy energy locally

which are back at the moment it is not being bought locally, it is

still being bought from the big energy companies. We are hoping in

long-term we could buy from local suppliers. In terms of backing

projects like this your Government is blowing hot and cold. Your Green

credentials are all over the place. I do not think they are. There has

been significant change since the general election and there are some

things I disagree with. Community energy schemes, the Government has

made an error in terms of ending the predetermination scheme and I want

the secretary of state to look at that and reintroduce that. It is not

just the amount of energy produced. Involving people in producing energy

and reducing the carbon impact. It is the message it sends out as well

as the energy it creates. We remember David Cameron, adopting the

Green oak tree. It was a fat, not a genuine commitment. It was a

specific issue. There was a lot of inevitability about what would

happen. I have been warning about what would happen over the last two

years. It was not a surprise, most of the changes, but I did not think

that removing the certainty that enables community regeneration

schemes to go forward because it takes such a long time to bring to

fruition, that is one relatively small aspect that I disagreed with.

Generally I would be supportive of the position the Government has

taken. In terms of dealing with Government on all sorts of levels,

licensing, crit capacity, planning issues, to get a scheme like this

the globe is complicated. It is actually relatively simple. It is

just that the process is congregated. If you start on a

project like this your revenue could have decreased by 70% by the time it

is completed. That has made it difficult to even raise finance for

a scheme now. A big criticism of renewable energy is dependability

and consistency, especially of wind power. Hydroelectric, that is the

issue, is at a constant stream of energy? It is not. Under the

licenses you could not work but what we do much nicely as when domestic

and energy needs are at their highest in winter, Hydro

historically always works well within the British climate. Would

you welcome a Wales where everybody buys their power locally and

community projects like this take hold? I do but to take a community

scheme forward is more difficult than a commercial scheme because

that company has got back up. It can risk a loss whereas a community

scheme cannot. That is why on the point of approving a price that will

be known to be available in three or four years' time was an important

encouragement to community regeneration schemes and I hope it

goes forward. Do you not acknowledge that politics does get in the way?

Yes, politics get in the way of everything. Everything has to be

done in a political context. You do your best to try to stop politics

getting in the way as far as you possibly can. That is what I do.

Thank you. If you'd like to get

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