16/03/2016 The Wales Report

Tonight on the Wales Report, we're at Westminster for a special

We'll be looking at the chancellor's measures and considering

what they mean for the people of Wales.

And we'll be asking how today's announcements affect the debate

ahead of the elections to the National Assembly in May.

Welcome to The Wales Report from Westminster after a busy

Budget Day, with just seven weeks to go until Welsh voters go

to the polls to elect a new National Assembly.

So we'll be considering the chancellor's measures

and the latest economic forecasts, and setting them in a Welsh context.

And remember, you can join in the discussion on social media.

The hashtag is thewalesreport. With me tonight, Alun Cairns,

the Wales Office Minister and Conservative MP

Nia Griffith, Shadow Secretary of State for Wales and Labour

For the Liberal Democrats we have Baroness Jenny Randerson.

For Plaid Cymru, Liz Saville Roberts, MP for Dwyfor Meirionydd

and for UKIP we have the former MP for Rochester and Strood,

Mark Reckless, who'll be standing in the May's elections in Wales.

Many thanks to you all for being here this evening.

The big challenge this evening is to cover quite a lot of this densely

packed budget. I start with a headline that is relevant to Welsh

people, the battle against childhood obesity. It is the eye-catching

initiative on this sugar levy. In October the Prime Minister told us

clearly this was not the most effective way of tackling obesity,

what has changed? There is a whole package of

policies. What I like about the way the Chancellor went about

introducing it is that it is a levy on industry, not a tax on

individuals. He will work with the industries so they can adapt their

policies, that will respond to the demands both governments, and also

the consumer. That money will go into sports and schools, encouraging

people to live a healthy lifestyle. It is a win-win for the industry and

the public. You are assuming that the cost will

be passed on in some way. I assume that the industry itself

will work with the policy, within the framework and use new

innovations. There are lots of alternatives that can be used as

well as reducing the taste of sugar as well.

Some fizzy drinks manufacturers say that the diet version is far more

popular than the sugar division. There are things that can be done

now that couldn't be done a short time ago.

When I spoke to a representative of the industry he wasn't very happy,

as we may foresee. But he did make what was probably a reasonable

point, lots of things contain sugar, they are not being locked in this

way, this is far too narrow a focus. Is that fair? I don't think it is.

In our childhood we used to drink water. It is a norm now for

children, I'd really like to see this policy actually get the

manufacturers to promote the ones that have less sugar. That's what we

really want. It's not about trying to raise money from it, I don't

think, as about changing the type of product that is there, drizzly

available. Change people's habits. The industry

says, Jenny, they have already made significant changes. They have

reduced sugar locals and feel they are not getting the credit for that

and this is some form of punishment. What do the Lib Dems say? I think it

is an important first step. I'm pleased that the Chancellor 's and

to a long campaign, and a very effective campaign, one which the

Liberal Democrats in government were very much engaged in. It's the first

step, you know, to taking access sugar out of a lot of our foods.

The logic, I suppose, is if you do this to sugary drinks you could look

at sweets, and all the rest of it. Would Plaid Cymru be in the business

of looking at widening the kind of area the levy should be applied in?

I'd like to say that this was a Plaid policy many years ago when

others refused to countenance it. We are delighted the Treasury has

adopted it as a policy. Some aspects need to come out of the wash, such

as what the details are. There was talk about exempting fruit juices

and milk drinks, we'll need to know exactly more about what that means.

I think it's already been mentioned that this is the first step in

considering what is the content of our food in terms of sugar, and

fats. One of your colleagues today said,

look, this is all about thing you will not drink sugary drinks and you

will do more exercise, a budget she characterised as a bit of a nanny

state kind of thing. Is that fair? Do you think this sugar levy, at the

end of the day, does make sense not? We are opposed to this in Ukip. It

is yet another new tax. Or the other parties are falling over each other

to say how much they support it... It's not a tax. They call it a levy

but it is a tax. Either it will raise money to help schools boards

or it won't. In the long term we hope it will change behaviour. Alan

said he hopes it will bring in extra money for schools boards, not that

bad Wales. Can I just clarify what I said. I

said that we are trying to influence and change lifestyle, it is about

influencing behaviour. If they will be the extreme... It will raise half

?1 billion, wanted? They will be the extreme view of

those who don't want to see any influence on that basis, but this is

a balance. It is a levy on companies calling on them to change their

habits. They won't be much raised from last levy. Clearly, we are

trying to take the industry there, carrot and stick. We have no doubt

consumers will respond. But it hits the Brewer hardest. The

reason it is necessary is that we have not made any headway. The

problem is getting worse. The options are quite limited, it may be

considered a extreme measure but is justified by the problem.

It's yet another tax. Already taxes are far too high. Cardiff Bay and

Westminster keep putting them up. We think taxes should come down. So

how do you get children and families to realise that the fizzy drink

culture is not good news? Party education. We believe people

should take decisions for themselves. Families and parents are

better making decisions for the young kids than the Chancellor.

Because it's children we are talking about it is unrealistic to think

that children are going to make decisions... Guided by parents or

guardians? They can be guided by parents but

they are not there all the time. They are not there in the school day

when they pop into the shop on the way home and buy these sugary

drinks. They don't look at the contents, do they? It's unrealistic

to think that they are going to start reading the small print.

To bring this to an end, if this is such a good idea for fizzy drinks,

surely the Chancellor would be considering options with biscuits,

cakes and other similar foods? One step at a time. We expect all

industries to respond. You mentioned earlier that they were surprised,

that is because they didn't see this coming. We want to influence people

positively. Very importantly, at this point, I

want us to consider how today's budget will affect Wales.

Yesterday a new ?1.2 billion pound deal for the Cardiff Capital Region,

Wales' first city deal, was announced by the Chancellor

with the aim of strengthening the economy of the entire region.

The deal, which includes plans to build a South Wales Metro,

is to improve public transport links for nearly half of Wales' population

and make the area more attractive to businesses.

Professor Brian Morgan, a member of the Cardiff Capital

Region Advisory Board, gives his assessment of the state

of the Welsh economy, and asks if city deals

There is quite a big prosperity gap, at the moment there is a 30%

prosperity gap with the rest of the British Isles. These companies are,

and have been, powering ahead for the last 20 years. That is the same

across Europe. We are quite low in relation to the UK and the European

average. All decisions are taken within

Wales, and what that means in practice, is that decisions are

delayed, politicised, we have a plethora of pro bono organisations.

They are talking shops. They have no resources and no powers. We never

seem to get the delivery of these economic strategy is right. In

Scotland, for example, they are very similar to Wales, but they have

agencies like Scottish enterprise, the Scottish futures trust that

actually deliver economic development, but also, you have a

strategic vision which is not so politicised as inside the

Government. They take a longer term vision. That's far better than just

holding everything inside the Government. We are inherently risk

adverse truck should do the job, it's never going to work that way.

It is about time the Welsh government learnt that lesson. One

of the answers is to create three development corporations across

Wales, a city region Corporation in Cardiff, Swansea and North Wales.

Organisations are one step removed from government, but they need

powers to deliver over longer term. The city deal offers a great

opportunity. ?1.3 billion that could change the way economic development

is delivered in Cardiff City. However, it is wrong to hand over

1.3 billion and deliver ten projects across ten local authorities. We

need a proper structure for the city region that will look carefully over

the longer term at which of these projects will make a real difference

in closing that prosperity gap with the rest of the UK. If we don't do

that, we will have missed an opportunity.

Plenty of interesting thoughts there. Our thanks to Professor Brian

Morgan. Meow, let's talk about city deals. This will be a big change

from Cardiff, do you welcome it? Certainly. We want to see that sort

of investment go ahead. I want to set the record straight

that we have had record investment in Wales and the economy doing

better in terms of anywhere outside London. Those are not my words.

Wales has been doing well. What we really want now is a lot more. We

want concrete puzzles for Swansea and North Wales, particularly

disappointing is the fact that we don't have a decision on the tidal

lagoon in Swansea. That would give a huge boost to the economy. I'd like

to see that decision sooner, rather than later.

So two important things there, the Cardiff deal which we will come to,

and I want to ask about Swansea and North Wales, but the tidal lagoon,

what is going on there? The Government has announced a

review into how it assesses innovative projects which allows the

company to respond because it's got more than one. The date has only

been shed on one in detail and then we need to look at how we assess

them and allow the company to bring forward its case. This allows the

company to make the case in a much more coherent way, and hopefully the

Government to respond. There was suggestion that as a

government you had cooled off on this idea, looked at it and thought,

does this really make sense? At cooled off? Absolutely not. The

Prime Minister was asked a question earlier today, and he responded in a

very positive way. This review must be seen in a positive light. It is

an opportunity for the company to make its case but for the Government

to look at how it assesses innovative schemes. It's got to be

value for money because those people who are calling this innovation are

also complaining about high energy costs for industry. You can't have

it both ways. You got to make sure it fits the demands of energy needs

as well as meeting expectations. City deals, are we likely to see

something similar for Swansea and North Wales? We can talk about it

until the cows come home. The Chancellor is keen to open

negotiations for both. Let's recognise the success of the Cardiff

city deal and the negotiations that face because this is ?500 million of

UK taxpayer money over and above the Barnett block. This is a delivery of

a major project for over the previous decade leading up to 2010

we did not see any major infrastructure schemes coming

forward. We add that to the Swansea City deal potential and the North

Wales growth year we would like to see with that will plug North Wales

into the northern powerhouse, on top of the Severn Bridge tolls that was

announced today which really says Wales is open for business and that

is sending the right message and encouraging more cross-border deals

that we want to see. When you look at this city deal for Cardiff, which

is worth a lot of money, potentially Swansea and Northway, are you then

happy to say it is a good example of partnership work between the Welsh

Government and Westminster? I welcome what has happened in

relation to Cardiff but there is no certainty about what has been

proposed for Swansea and it is a matter of opening the door to

discussions on North Wales. We need more concrete proposals than this.

We're talking about infrastructure proposals, we really need to be much

more ambitious. By Cymru is talking about enough cash to national

infrastructure commission. We need to look at how this could be put

into effect much better. If we compared what is being mentioned

with what is being offered in far greater detail in England, there is

really no comparison. Wales gets its money through the Barnett formula.

All of these initiatives are over and above the normal allocation we

have seen over the previous 17 years of Labour administration in Cardiff

Bay. There is the city deal for Cardiff, the commitment to a city

deal in Swansea and the development of the potential of a growth dealer

North Wales on top of the other schemes that have been announced

such as the support for veterans in Swansea, on top of the seven tolls,

these are in addition to what Wales will have had over 13 years in

Westminster with Labour and 17 years in Cardiff Bay. There was not one

major scheme that was driven by the seven -- Westminster government that

delivered anything in Wales. Look at the M4 around Newport. We are still

waiting for any movement around that in spite of the Chancellor making

?500 million available three years ago. The Welsh Government could

invest far better throughout Wales but not everything has been devolved

to Wales and there are considerable responsibilities for the Westminster

government that I would input -- expect greater investment. ?2.8

billion worth of investment... We are still waiting for it. It has

been buzz bomb. It is taking place as we speak. Pylons are going down,

cables are being fitted. We are still waiting for the plans for that

as well. Just on electrification of rail lines, when will that be done?

The line to Swansea, when will that be completed? It will be open and up

and running to Cardiff by 2019 and work will have started before the

Cardiff route is opened, the pylons will be in the process of being

fitted but even if we threw more money at the link between Cardiff

and Swansea, we could not get it quicker. It is about the engineering

challenges that exist. It will come early after the 2019 opening of the

line to Cardiff. I am foreign tiering to work on that section of

line myself by the way. But seriously, there is a reluctance may

be is there? Do you feel a reluctance to give credit where

these big projects are all we get bogged down in arguments between

Cardiff Bay and Westminster? I do think that the electrification is...

Will be a huge benefit to. I welcome strongly the Cardiff City deal,

although it has taken rather a long time. I want to see something more

on Swansea. I certainly want to see more than one sentence in the budget

about North Wales. But the thing that I think that the Chancellor has

really missed a trick on of huge importance to Wales is he could

announce the abolition of the Severn Bridge tolls. That takes no time.

The end of the concession period in a couple of years' time. Wales could

be toll-free. That is a tax on jobs in Wales, a tax on people doing

business in Wales and on Monday, I asked the Minister in the Lords a

question on this, his answer was, well, it is ?63 million that needs

to be paid back to the UK taxpayer. We are talking about a piece of

motorway. Who else has to pay a toll on their motorway? Fair point? I do

not accept it. There was no pressure when the Lib Dems were in government

on this policy. We are committed to having the tolls from 2018, as soon

as it comes back into public ownership. There will still be a

debt of ?64 million on it. As soon as it comes into public ownership,

we will have it. The hauliers and the Federation of Small Businesses

have responded fantastically well today. We are delighted. But there

will still be an obligation to maintenance and there is a long

history across the UK where there are bridges or links over estuaries

and similar infrastructure such as the Humber and the Dartford

Crossing, there is a small toll but that must be reasonable and that is

exactly what we are committing too. There is a long history across the

UK Government 's building bridges, tolling them, and saying those tolls

would go when they are paid for and then breaking their word, as the

government has done today on the Severn Bridge tolls. That is going

to run out in terms of paying for those constructions... The debt even

remains in 2018. This debt has been made up by the Treasury. I am very

sceptical. It is half the amount that was written off on the Humber

Bridge and it is half... You have the windfall gain in VAT. I think

Mark is demonstrating his ignorance of the policy and religion to Wales.

Clearly this has been in place and it has been increasing by inflation

ever since its inception. Even if you go back pre-1997 when the bridge

was instructed Labour did nothing over their period in government that

could well have brought some changes about it. The moment we do, we will

be introducing changes, we have committed today to cutting it by

50%. The policy has been welcomed far and wide. There's Labour

accepted share of responsible is he? We had to finish off paying the

bridge. When that concession comes to an end, we absolutely 100% expect

the price to come down, which is obviously what is good to happen in

2018 because for a start, the VAT comes off. But as the Welsh affairs

committee has shown, the Treasury has done very well out of the VAT

having been imposed. The Welsh Government wanted evolution of the

toll. We knew that it would be a cash cow. There is a maintenance

obligation on it and a debt that remains will stop I wish people

would write welcome a 50% cut in terms of the toll that was being

introduced. We need to see the money coming back to Wales to help

businesses in Wales. About... A big slice of the many people will be

paying in tolls will be for the cost of collecting the tolls. Just accept

that the taxpayer does not have to pay the taxpayer back, which is

essentially what Alun Cairns is arguing for and you let that

relatively small debt, so-called debt, life. Ukip would scrap the

tolls and we would pay for the maintenance which would be

physically a pound a car, we would pay for that, 10 million a year by

scrapping the ?73 million the Welsh Government is planning to spend next

year on climate change projects. Up 50% in just a year. We need to get

rid of those tolls. They are attacks on doing business with Wales. That

is what Ukip would do. Just focus again, the all-important subject,

lots of our viewers want to talk about, how we regenerate the Welsh

economy. We have talked about Cardiff and the city deal. I am not

sure whether Mark think that is a good package of measures? Devolution

should not end at Cardiff Bay. When for example we talk about an

enterprise zone in Port Talbot, we know there are issues, employment

concerns, it is just one of several areas in Wales where money could go

in and be spent in more imaginative ways, again, what are the prospects

for a fully funded properly constituted enterprise zone in

places like Port Talbot? We are working closely with the Welsh

Government and we have been in negotiations and we hope to see some

movement on this very soon. I would say that under the city deals that

have taken place in England there has generally been a greater

devolution process and that is to the community itself and the local

authorities around it. In Wales, as Professor Brian Morgan rightly said,

there is a centralisation of power in Cardiff. If you are in North

Wales come you are just as far away from that centralisation of power as

you were in the old days when it was in Westminster. We want to see

further devolution to the authorities to come up with the

innovation we are seeing in Manchester and Newcastle, Sheffield

and Ipswich. We want to see that same sort of innovation. What is

stopping you? That is the Welsh Government structure. Absolutely.

They are not allowing that greater devolution in the same way that the

UK command is encouraging in England. It is already happening in

Swansea. Port Talbot is part of the Swansea City region. We are seeing

centralisation to Cardiff. To be fair to the Swansea City Bay region,

they have done a huge amount of working drawing in the private

sector and it would be great now with the Westminster government

could respond to that and see that they have some very exciting plans

and they are really trying to make this region work and bring in a lot

of private sector money. I think Westminster should be responding. We

really do need a change of culture amongst those officers in charge of

developing the economy because they are so risk-averse and again what we

have been discussing here today's do with cities and the north-east.

Where does that leave rural Wales got our tourism is a fantastic

industry but we need more than that. The average salaries are dropping

year-on-year in those areas. What is the answer? We need an organisation

with the same now sound business sense and ambition as we had the

WDA. You called for the winding up of the WDA. We are calling for some

thing else in its place. I think I was one of the only people who

defended the WDA. In the area that I represent, simply nothing is coming

back to us except proposals for tourism and cuts to farming incomes.

People will say the answer to that is to create another public body and

they will think, come on, is that really the answer? We're not

pretending that the problems of rural Wales are easy to solve but is

a new body likely to be the way to fashion something? We need a culture

that is aimed at getting money out of businesses. We need to see money

going out and resulting in real jobs. Businesses in North will have

got together and are making a real go of it. We have nearly been

defeated by the clock. There are five of you here today. I would like

to ask each of you for a kind of one sentence summary of where the budget

leaves Wales and what you think the challenges are? I really do mean one

sentence. The Cardiff City deal is good. We would like to go further

and evolve economic development from the civil servants in Cardiff to the

local councils. The Chancellor talked about a devolution revolution

and yet cities like Manchester will have powers such as criminal Justice

and policing, Wales does not. Why not? There are steps in the right

direction but we see yet again Wales limping along behind where other

cities in England have led and we will not catch up in terms of our

wealth, in terms of wages within Wales until we are taking the

initiative and the initiative here, I believe, starts with simplifying

things, trusting local people more and above all, getting rid of the

Severn Bridge tolls. I am very disappointed that we do not have

more for Swansea and North Wales and I would like to have seen a lot more

there because growth in the economy is what we really need and the other

worrying factor is the way that disabled people are being hit very

hard in this budget and I do not think that the Chancellor is being

at all fed to the most vulnerable in our society. The Chancellor has

given Wales a transformation opportunity. There is the seven

tolls cut, the city deal for Cardiff already arranged, commit and is for

Swansea and a North Wales growth deal, it is now up to the Welsh

government to start delivering for Wales and overcome issues such as

the M4 round report which has been called for the many years. Why do I

think this debate is gone to be rain for the next few weeks Castle Market

as good as sea wall. That's it for tonight,

we'll be back during the election campaign with a number

of special debates. If you'd like to have your say

on how Wales' health service and Education system are run,

or you want to be part of the audience for a special debate

with the party leaders then do Email us at [email protected]

and we're on social media Diolch am eich cwmni,

nos da, good night.