09/03/2016 The Wales Report


09/03/2016

Presented by Bethan Rhys Roberts. With the Draft Wales Bill on hold, where next for devolution in Wales? Plus an interview with Labour's Carwyn Jones.


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for the National Assembly on hold, where next for devolution in Wales?

:00:00.:00:11.

We ask Labour leader Carwyn Jones how his party would run Wales

:00:12.:00:14.

as we look ahead to May's assembly election.

:00:15.:00:18.

And do green spaces in our towns and cities really

:00:19.:00:21.

Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.

:00:22.:00:39.

Tonight, we start with a look at how Wales is likely to be run

:00:40.:00:42.

in the years to come and where power will lie.

:00:43.:00:45.

And you can join in the conversation on social media with

:00:46.:00:48.

For months politicians have been arguing over the future of the draft

:00:49.:00:52.

Wales Bill - that's the UK government's plan for the next steps

:00:53.:00:55.

Last week, the Welsh Secretary Steven Crabb put the legislation

:00:56.:00:59.

Then this week the Welsh Government took the rare step of publishing

:01:00.:01:06.

its own alternative draft bill, which in terms of devolving powers

:01:07.:01:09.

to Cardiff Bay, goes further than Mr Crabb's document.

:01:10.:01:16.

But many have criticised Carwyn Jones for publishing such

:01:17.:01:20.

And there are concerns that the whole process

:01:21.:01:23.

Felicity Evans asks how close are we to getting a devolution

:01:24.:01:26.

Trying to get to grips with Welsh devolution is a bit like wrestling a

:01:27.:01:47.

creature from the deep. Once you think you have it cornered, a

:01:48.:01:51.

tentacle comes from nowhere and hits you in the head. Maybe it is the

:01:52.:01:56.

repeated concussion that has stopped successive secretaries of State from

:01:57.:01:59.

finding a lasting and logical settlement. To help us all keep a

:02:00.:02:05.

clear head, let me walk you through recent devolution developments.

:02:06.:02:08.

Check out this timeline. Don't worry, we're not going right back to

:02:09.:02:11.

the beginning because we all have lies to get on with, so we will stop

:02:12.:02:16.

with the Silk Commission that produced to reports. One on finance

:02:17.:02:21.

and one other powers the Assembly should have. Silke recommended the

:02:22.:02:25.

assembly should be based on the same as Scotland and Northern Ireland

:02:26.:02:29.

reserved powers. In other the assembly should have control of

:02:30.:02:34.

everything that is not explicitly restricted to Parliament. The main

:02:35.:02:40.

recommendation has not been enacted and it is causing expensive

:02:41.:02:46.

problems. The model we have now is Scotland's reject. The model was

:02:47.:02:50.

rejected from Scotland when it was considered in the late 1990s because

:02:51.:02:55.

it was considered to be a complicated way of devolving power

:02:56.:02:58.

and they also said it would lead to arguments about what is devolved and

:02:59.:03:02.

what is not devolved about what probably lead to litigation in the

:03:03.:03:07.

courts. That is exactly what has happened in Wales. We have three

:03:08.:03:16.

bills referred to the Supreme Court. And there is consensus on one thing.

:03:17.:03:20.

No one likes this model of devolution, so a whole year after

:03:21.:03:25.

Silk, it seemed a watershed moment when the then UK coalition

:03:26.:03:30.

government made a headline grabbing announcement. More responsibility

:03:31.:03:34.

for the Welsh assembly and more opportunity for the Welsh people to

:03:35.:03:41.

hold their politicians to account. -- Welsh Assembly. It all seemed

:03:42.:03:44.

simple, but let us move our timeline on eight months to the publication

:03:45.:03:50.

of the draft Wales Bill. This was meant to be a consultation, but it

:03:51.:04:00.

wasn't. The first Minister was particularly scathing. It means a

:04:01.:04:04.

veto on Welsh laws. The Assembly not having a free hand. In addition to

:04:05.:04:12.

the relentless criticism of the bill, there was concern that the

:04:13.:04:17.

timetable was to type to permit remedial action. But the secretary

:04:18.:04:21.

of state Steven Crabb said whilst the bill needed to be improved,

:04:22.:04:25.

there was bags of time to do it. And then he changed his mind. What I

:04:26.:04:30.

have demonstrated today is what I have been listening to all along and

:04:31.:04:35.

I have taken on board the valid criticisms people have made and the

:04:36.:04:38.

changes I have announced the right thing to do. The draft legislation

:04:39.:04:42.

has been paused to make the changes needed, but a former wealth of his

:04:43.:04:48.

Minister is not holding my breath. -- Wales office minister. I looked

:04:49.:04:58.

around at the Conservative colleagues of the secretary of state

:04:59.:05:02.

and there are very few if any who have a positive approach to

:05:03.:05:07.

devolution that he has. I have been involved in this for long enough. I

:05:08.:05:13.

have been around for long enough to be sceptical that we will actually

:05:14.:05:18.

get what is promised until we actually have it in our hands. And

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earlier this week, just be helpful, the Welsh government produced its

:05:25.:05:29.

own draft bill. We have not taken the decision to publish this draft

:05:30.:05:35.

Bill. There is no sense of one-upmanship, rather this bill is a

:05:36.:05:39.

constructive contribution to the debate. With the assembly elections

:05:40.:05:45.

nearly upon us, it seems we are not any clearer on what powers the

:05:46.:05:49.

people we vote for will have in the future.

:05:50.:05:49.

Neither the Secretary of State nor a Wales Office Minister

:05:50.:05:53.

However, a spokesperson provided The Wales Report

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"The Secretary of State has listened to the debate over recent months...

:05:58.:06:01.

He has always been clear the Government will not introduce

:06:02.:06:03.

legislation that would create a pathway to separation.

:06:04.:06:05.

The changes will help deliver on the commitments made

:06:06.:06:08.

in the St Davids Day agreement to introduce a historic funding

:06:09.:06:10.

floor, devolve more powers and remove constitutional red tape

:06:11.:06:12.

to create a stonger Wales in a strong United Kingdom."

:06:13.:06:25.

Joining me now is the Conservative MP and member of the Welsh Affairs

:06:26.:06:28.

Committee Craig Williams, and the Plaid Cymru AM and former

:06:29.:06:30.

Presiding Officer Dafydd Elis Thomas.

:06:31.:06:35.

Welcome to you both. Craig Williams, why did your government get this

:06:36.:06:41.

draft Wales Bill so wrong to you think? In your question there you

:06:42.:06:48.

use the word draft. We published a draft bill, we are changing a draft

:06:49.:06:52.

bill and we are pausing as well. This is what people have been asking

:06:53.:06:56.

and now we are being criticised to doing what people want. Steven Crabb

:06:57.:06:59.

is one of the most pragmatic politicians I know. He has published

:07:00.:07:07.

a draft bill, taking the criticism and has adapted it. He will come

:07:08.:07:12.

back after the Assembly with what will be an excellent bill for Wales.

:07:13.:07:18.

It was way off the mark so. It would result in fewer powers in the hands

:07:19.:07:21.

of the Assembly in Cardiff Bay rather than more. It was moving to

:07:22.:07:27.

the reserved model. It was giving them more powers. We waved the

:07:28.:07:33.

referendum on taxation powers and giving the Assembly clearer

:07:34.:07:37.

accountability. The criticism is about taking away powers from the

:07:38.:07:41.

assembly and it was a detail legal technical argument by lawyers who do

:07:42.:07:47.

argue all day over these issues. It was not technical. Let me bring in

:07:48.:07:56.

Dafydd Elis Thomas. Is this just an Empire it is. We need to be able to

:07:57.:08:03.

get this legislation through as soon as possible so we can plan for the

:08:04.:08:09.

future. We are getting responsibility for the electoral

:08:10.:08:16.

numbers and their is the difficulty of defining the powers. It is the

:08:17.:08:20.

exceptions that are always the problem. If you look at the Northern

:08:21.:08:26.

Ireland act, there is only one schedule. The Welsh government came

:08:27.:08:33.

up with a blueprint this week. You have it in front of you. Is it that

:08:34.:08:37.

way ahead? Do you back that? Absolutely. I challenge the first

:08:38.:08:41.

Minister when he gave evidence to the committee and is wide did the

:08:42.:08:48.

government in Wells not produce their own bill. They have done that,

:08:49.:08:54.

so now the clever thing would be to allow the National Assembly to carry

:08:55.:08:59.

on. We will be in charge of our constitution next time round, so why

:09:00.:09:06.

do we start now? What about that, Craig Williams? Devolving the whole

:09:07.:09:14.

process to the Assembly. It should be decided there, shouldn't it?

:09:15.:09:19.

Rebuilt the Welsh government has come up with, just before an

:09:20.:09:26.

election is incredibly interesting. Liz Savo Roberts asked about police

:09:27.:09:32.

powers, and Labour are split on these issues. Far from it -- far be

:09:33.:09:47.

it from me to defend everything the Welsh government does, but he has

:09:48.:09:51.

done a Peter Hain. He gave us deferred matters with reference to

:09:52.:10:00.

devolved power. We have that and also referred matters. You are

:10:01.:10:07.

holding that is a bit of a blueprint. Your party in the chamber

:10:08.:10:10.

yesterday were doing anything but. They were pretty scathing about

:10:11.:10:16.

that. I take my own counsel on these constitutional matters. I believe

:10:17.:10:20.

the people of Wales trust us as Assembly members, they have trusted

:10:21.:10:25.

us over the years as we have had additional powers and this is the

:10:26.:10:30.

next step. When you say ask, did you mean? Plaid Cymru do the Welsh

:10:31.:10:35.

government? The people of Wells indicated quite clearly, 44% of them

:10:36.:10:41.

want the Assembly to have more powers, 34% want us to have the same

:10:42.:10:50.

powers. It is our responsibility to make sure that this works. When will

:10:51.:10:57.

we this pause come to an end, Craig Williams? I hope the stance

:10:58.:11:03.

continues apace after the Assembly elections. That is quite handy. Kick

:11:04.:11:10.

it in the long grass? Look, it is the Welsh general elections and it

:11:11.:11:17.

is important. I am a pro-devolution conservative as well, so Jenny does

:11:18.:11:20.

not have too look far in the Conservative ranks, but if it pushes

:11:21.:11:25.

in after the assembly elections, we can have a more much you -- a more

:11:26.:11:36.

mature debate rather than getting stuck into Westminster and getting

:11:37.:11:45.

the bill delivered. Finally, Dafydd Elis Thomas, when will we get a

:11:46.:11:51.

lasting settlement? There is no lasting settlement in politics,

:11:52.:11:55.

whether it is the European Union or the United Kingdom. These things

:11:56.:12:02.

always change, there is always democratic scrutiny. Dafydd Elliston

:12:03.:12:10.

is an Craig Williams, thank you very much. -- Dafydd Elliston.

:12:11.:12:16.

As part of BBC Wales' How Wales Works season,

:12:17.:12:18.

The Wales Report has been speaking to the main party leaders in Wales

:12:19.:12:21.

to find out how they'd run things if they won power in May.

:12:22.:12:25.

Over the past weeks, we've heard from Ukip,

:12:26.:12:26.

the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives.

:12:27.:12:28.

Tonight it's turn of the Labour leader in Wales, Carwyn Jones.

:12:29.:12:31.

Before we talk to the First Minister, Professor Richard Wyn

:12:32.:12:33.

Jones from the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University takes

:12:34.:12:36.

a look at the challenges ahead for Labour.

:12:37.:12:48.

This is potentially the most difficult election that the Labour

:12:49.:12:55.

Party has faced since devolution. Labour have been in power for so

:12:56.:13:02.

long, so the time for a change argument becomes ever stronger, and

:13:03.:13:09.

it looks you know is if they are a little bit tired, a little bit

:13:10.:13:13.

jaded. It is striking that so many people in the Labour group are

:13:14.:13:19.

standing down. We now have Jeremy Corbyn, who is a mighty character,

:13:20.:13:26.

but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he is not particularly

:13:27.:13:30.

popular and there is lots of evidence to suggest that Welsh

:13:31.:13:33.

Labour are trying to distance themselves from him. Now that is a

:13:34.:13:37.

really tough combination for Carwyn Jones in the election.

:13:38.:13:42.

The threshold for success is interesting for Labour in the Welsh

:13:43.:13:50.

election. There is a kind of a margin between 25 which would be a

:13:51.:13:55.

really poor result, 30 would be remarkably good. That is the range

:13:56.:14:01.

in which we're talking here. In terms of Carwyn Jones own position,

:14:02.:14:08.

as they can get 27, 28, that would be something of a triumph. If they

:14:09.:14:15.

are down to 2526, his future is then in question.

:14:16.:14:18.

You are asking the people of Wales for a fifth term in government. That

:14:19.:14:33.

is an awful long time. Is that healthy for the Welsh people? We're

:14:34.:14:38.

halfway through a decade of delivery and we have had a record-breaking

:14:39.:14:42.

Tory cuts to our budget. But we've been able to deliver. We have seen

:14:43.:14:48.

Aston Martin come to Wales, we have seen Jobs Growth Wales, unemployment

:14:49.:14:52.

lower than London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Some people will

:14:53.:14:58.

say it is another election, you need to look at the change that people

:14:59.:15:04.

change their car but he wouldn't change a carphone old banger. You

:15:05.:15:09.

are halfway through a decade of delivery. You have been in power for

:15:10.:15:15.

17 years, you are talking about five years of delivery, whatever you been

:15:16.:15:20.

doing for 12 years? I have then First Minister since 2009. Forget

:15:21.:15:26.

the Rhodri Morgan years? I have been the person leading the party since

:15:27.:15:36.

2011. Hang on, are you saying... We have got better GCSE results, the

:15:37.:15:43.

best ever. Labour has been in power for 17 years. You have had other

:15:44.:15:48.

people, you have been at the wheel for 17 years, talking about cars.

:15:49.:15:53.

Let's be straight, are you disowning those first 12 years and saying we

:15:54.:15:58.

didn't delivered a thing as Mac you delivered from day one, didn't you?

:15:59.:16:05.

Of course we did. I went into the election in 2011 for the first time

:16:06.:16:11.

as leader of the Welsh Labour Party. The trudging Morgan deliver? Of

:16:12.:16:18.

course he is. But he hasn't been First Minister since 2009. I know

:16:19.:16:24.

Plaid Cymru likes to pretend they weren't in government for four years

:16:25.:16:29.

but they were. We are saying we're not far from it. We are not

:16:30.:16:35.

complacent. If you look at the pledges we have launched, they are

:16:36.:16:38.

original and our manifesto will be the same. Let's look at the pledges.

:16:39.:16:46.

You are offering and a million two increase standards in schools. It's

:16:47.:16:53.

built on what we have done already. That is more money in the Welsh

:16:54.:16:56.

education system that they would have been without the pledge in

:16:57.:17:00.

2011. Schools are being built across Wales. People can see them in their

:17:01.:17:06.

communities. We know for example the Conservatives want to cut school

:17:07.:17:09.

spending by 12%. That is they entered the school building

:17:10.:17:12.

programme. Your pledge this year is 100,000

:17:13.:17:17.

quality apprenticeships for all ages. Last election, tackling youth

:17:18.:17:24.

unemployment is by creating a fund and extending apprenticeships. What

:17:25.:17:29.

is the difference? If you look at Jobs Growth Wales, 15,000 young

:17:30.:17:32.

people had the opportunity to train and many of them went on to job was

:17:33.:17:37.

that builds on them because this is a scheme for ages. People need to

:17:38.:17:46.

retrain at all stages. In 2011 new promised free nursery places and

:17:47.:17:51.

better support for families, this time, free childcare for working

:17:52.:17:54.

parents. We were talking about flying start in 2011 and that will

:17:55.:17:59.

stay. We know how difficult it is for people to get childcare and that

:18:00.:18:04.

is why we're making sure for 30 hours a week, 48 weeks year parents

:18:05.:18:10.

will be able to get access to childcare. It is important for

:18:11.:18:14.

people in terms of accessibility Vostok was these tweaks in what you

:18:15.:18:18.

are offering. There is no radical been thinking. You have been there

:18:19.:18:24.

for 17 years. But Kimberly says Wales need a break. -- but Plaid

:18:25.:18:34.

Cymru. Doubling the capital limits of people who go into residential

:18:35.:18:39.

care, older people, that is not radical. These are radical pledges.

:18:40.:18:44.

Plaid Cymru, what are they offering? They want to set up a quango. They

:18:45.:18:48.

want to centralise all health services in that they have run from

:18:49.:18:52.

Cardiff. We offer jobs, Plaid Cymru offers committees. You don't want to

:18:53.:18:58.

talk about the constitution that you have published 180 pages on the

:18:59.:19:02.

constitution, on alternative draft Wales Bill. Is that wise to do that?

:19:03.:19:09.

There was nothing else on the table. The UK Government had a chance that

:19:10.:19:14.

it was so flawed nobody supported it. It is important for the people

:19:15.:19:18.

of Wales to see what we think is the way forward. What I want to do is

:19:19.:19:24.

get to a position where everything is settled, will we understand what

:19:25.:19:27.

the Assembly can do, what the UK Government does, whether it is no

:19:28.:19:31.

confusion and this is the big opportunity. Lots of things included

:19:32.:19:37.

are the things your own party members in Westminster have

:19:38.:19:40.

abstained on. You need a word with them. I spoke to them last week. We

:19:41.:19:47.

know that things have changed. We know we want to see devolution move

:19:48.:19:52.

forward and above all as Scotland get certainty, Wales get forge. We

:19:53.:20:01.

don't want that. Why should we be in the worse position than Scotland.

:20:02.:20:06.

Can I ask, that is the Welsh Government document. Who has been

:20:07.:20:13.

working on that? You're civil servants? It is our response to the

:20:14.:20:18.

UK Government. Is that the best use of Welsh civil servants? If we

:20:19.:20:23.

hadn't done that you would be sitting there saying, you have told

:20:24.:20:26.

is what you don't like about the UK Government Bill, what is your

:20:27.:20:31.

response? Way have you been? Why didn't you put that on the table

:20:32.:20:35.

when it comes to the Saint Davids the agreements? That is mythical,

:20:36.:20:40.

there has never been an agreement or negotiation. We made the point it

:20:41.:20:46.

was deeply flawed but there were others making the same point. We

:20:47.:20:51.

worked on this bill as an alternative for months. As a

:20:52.:20:55.

response to the UK Government 's's failures. We have wasted a year when

:20:56.:20:59.

we could've been moving forward. But this is an electioneering because

:21:00.:21:03.

it's about the agenda and you don't tell Stephen Crabb in advance we are

:21:04.:21:08.

trying this up. You dump this on his desk, how would you feel if you did

:21:09.:21:13.

the to you? That is exactly what he did. He dumped a Wales Bill honours

:21:14.:21:18.

without consulting us. But it was licensed the legislation. --

:21:19.:21:25.

Westminster legislation. We were told they would be a negotiation but

:21:26.:21:30.

there wasn't one. Here is your bill, like it or lump it. It isn't just

:21:31.:21:35.

as. All the parties in Wales said it was an acceptable. As part of our

:21:36.:21:42.

response people would have told this what our alternative is, this is at.

:21:43.:21:48.

Ron Davies said devolution is a process not an event. This week you

:21:49.:21:53.

said let's make devolution and event and not a process. Is this its? Is

:21:54.:21:59.

this as fight you want to go down this journey? What this bill would

:22:00.:22:05.

do is provide this with piracy, simplicity and something that is

:22:06.:22:09.

durable for the future in one act. You don't want income tax powers, do

:22:10.:22:16.

you? Yes, I have said so. I explained what I would do with them.

:22:17.:22:20.

Of course we accept income tax powers are going to come, there will

:22:21.:22:24.

be a case in future for new powers as well. Why not ask for them now?

:22:25.:22:30.

We couldn't have them now. That is a trap here. What we will not do is

:22:31.:22:35.

accept the powers if we find that we're going to be stuffed in terms

:22:36.:22:38.

of the financial settlements. Most of the were still come to Wales by a

:22:39.:22:44.

block grant. That has to be sorted. Otherwise we are falling into a

:22:45.:22:49.

trap. They would ideally have settled that. However, this is it

:22:50.:22:53.

come in terms of the delusion you don't want to get any further? In

:22:54.:22:58.

terms of the big picture if this was enacted your bill would be a good

:22:59.:23:03.

smack it takes us to a position where things will be durable for

:23:04.:23:08.

many years. It is is something missing in its people need to see

:23:09.:23:12.

what they think is missing. This is a bill for discussion, we're not

:23:13.:23:16.

saying everything is set in stone. It is a genuine attempt to bring the

:23:17.:23:22.

parties together and look at it. We have told the Wales Office to look

:23:23.:23:25.

at it. This is a better way of doing it. What about your personal

:23:26.:23:30.

journey? Would you say the full-term of this election? It is pushy and

:23:31.:23:37.

arrogant politicians to give their own self-imposed term limit when

:23:38.:23:41.

there is an election coming. It is up to the people of Wales in May

:23:42.:23:46.

whether I am First Minister or not. Are you going to disappear halfway

:23:47.:23:50.

through I will you play the course? And beyond? The first thing is to

:23:51.:23:57.

see what the result is. I am not going to tell the people of Wales

:23:58.:24:00.

what I want to do, it is in their hands. There is presidency. Tony

:24:01.:24:06.

Blair, David Cameron were clear with the electorate. You would serve the

:24:07.:24:11.

whole term if you would win? It is far too early to know what the

:24:12.:24:15.

result of the election would be. Let's pretend you win. Will you

:24:16.:24:23.

serve a full term? I've got no plans to do otherwise. Let's wait to see

:24:24.:24:27.

what happens but I want to be First Minister after me and my intention

:24:28.:24:32.

is to continue. We're not going to sit back and expect votes to come to

:24:33.:24:37.

us. It is a tough election, all elections out. The longer you are in

:24:38.:24:42.

power the tougher it gets. You have hinted in the past, ten years is

:24:43.:24:46.

about right for a leader. You're ten years would be up before the end of

:24:47.:24:51.

the next full-term. I want to win the election in May one. What we

:24:52.:24:59.

want to do is put forward to the people of Wales well costed,

:25:00.:25:02.

exciting promises. We've got the drive, the energy and the momentum.

:25:03.:25:09.

Carwyn Jones, thank you. That was the last of our wet interviews with

:25:10.:25:18.

the party leaders. If you want to get involved in discussions please

:25:19.:25:18.

contact us. Wales is a country with a fantastic

:25:19.:25:20.

natural environment But why are so many of our towns

:25:21.:25:23.

and cities grey and drab? Research in recent years has found

:25:24.:25:29.

that access to good quality green spaces can have long lasting

:25:30.:25:33.

benefits for our mental health, so what should be done to bring

:25:34.:25:36.

nature into our built Dr Ruth Williams from

:25:37.:25:39.

the Landscape Institute argues that the answer could lie

:25:40.:25:44.

in green infrastructure - that's finding natural solutions

:25:45.:25:48.

to urban problems like flood There's so many different ways

:25:49.:25:50.

the environment can help us. There are so many health benefits

:25:51.:25:55.

research is showing, both our mental health and physical

:25:56.:26:00.

health can be helped as well as reducing flood risk,

:26:01.:26:03.

as well as providing There is multiple benefits and ways

:26:04.:26:07.

the environment can help us. A green infrastructure is a way

:26:08.:26:13.

of delivering that for us. Green infrastructure is working

:26:14.:26:18.

with nature around our developments. So it can be a simple as a border

:26:19.:26:23.

of lavender that can act as a barrier to stop children

:26:24.:26:27.

falling down a steep bank. It can be from the very local

:26:28.:26:31.

and small-scale to a massive scale in terms of the way we might design

:26:32.:26:34.

around a new motorway or around It is always looking at working

:26:35.:26:38.

with nature and seeing what we have got rather than building

:26:39.:26:43.

the concrete and then saying, why have we ended up

:26:44.:26:47.

with these problems? What is important is our urban

:26:48.:26:51.

communities in south east Wales, north east Wales, many of those

:26:52.:26:55.

communities don't have There isn't the nature

:26:56.:26:58.

on their doorstep, there are few parks that people can reach

:26:59.:27:02.

all greenery in their streets. This is very, very important at that

:27:03.:27:06.

streetscape level that we actually see this green infrastructure

:27:07.:27:10.

coming to the fore. It's about thinking more cleverly

:27:11.:27:13.

about the way we plan these areas. Here we are in Llanelli town centre

:27:14.:27:19.

but this is typical of the scene We don't see much evidence

:27:20.:27:22.

of green infrastructure here. What we'd like to see much more

:27:23.:27:28.

bringing nature into our towns and cities so we can get this

:27:29.:27:32.

win-win situation for the health and benefits of the people

:27:33.:27:36.

as well as the places. Everyone that is involved

:27:37.:27:41.

in planning a development needs to think right from point one

:27:42.:27:43.

of building in green infrastructure into every single development

:27:44.:27:46.

and taking that forward. That is the big change we need

:27:47.:27:51.

to see in Wales. We are here in Llanelli at a special

:27:52.:27:53.

project that Dwr Cymru This doesn't look like a huge

:27:54.:27:58.

project but underneath the ground a lot of work has gone on in order

:27:59.:28:04.

to reduce the flooding for the local Michelle, if you hadn't

:28:05.:28:08.

taken this approach, what would have been another way

:28:09.:28:12.

of tackling these problems? We did a modelling exercise

:28:13.:28:15.

which said we would need a storage tank to the field which would be

:28:16.:28:18.

the same size as Parc y Scarlets We reduced the cost to around

:28:19.:28:22.

150 million so it is a massive Here we see a really good example,

:28:23.:28:28.

albeit it a small example, of the win-win situation for Wales,

:28:29.:28:34.

benefits for the local people in terms of reducing flood

:28:35.:28:38.

to their homes and also providing a lovely green space

:28:39.:28:43.

for them to enjoy. What we are calling

:28:44.:28:49.

on the new Welsh Government after the election to do is to take

:28:50.:28:51.

some leadership in this area. One of the ways we think they can do

:28:52.:28:54.

this is by appointing a cabinet So many different aspects

:28:55.:28:58.

to our lives will be enhanced if we look at things through a green

:28:59.:29:02.

lens rather than through the typical Joining me now is Carole-Anne

:29:03.:29:05.

Davies, chief executive of the Design Commission for Wales,

:29:06.:29:14.

and landscape architect, Welcome to you both. Merry, I. With

:29:15.:29:30.

you. We are blessed in Wales with a fantastic countryside. Can we really

:29:31.:29:37.

say that the people of Wales aren't privileged? Well, I think we do have

:29:38.:29:41.

the potential for access to wonderful green spaces and the

:29:42.:29:45.

coastline of course as we saw in that film, but what of the things

:29:46.:29:48.

you have to think about is, as was pointed out, city centres, town

:29:49.:29:56.

centres, urban areas, housing estates, the level of access to

:29:57.:30:02.

green space that people have in that context and how easy is it for them

:30:03.:30:07.

to get out into this green environment? Carol Ann, is it a

:30:08.:30:14.

matter of a few hanging baskets? A few pots heaven there? It is not

:30:15.:30:21.

about that, is it? Is it far deeper, and also about a cultural shift? It

:30:22.:30:27.

can be about the cultural shift, it's also about integrated

:30:28.:30:30.

partnerships and all sectors working together. The really successful

:30:31.:30:36.

examples of what you might describe as urban shorelines are in the

:30:37.:30:46.

European centres and it is about everyone working together and

:30:47.:30:49.

realising the value of what the green infrastructure can deliver.

:30:50.:30:54.

What can it offer? Health benefits as well as the utilities. Water

:30:55.:31:00.

management is one of the issues of our age. If you can combine that

:31:01.:31:04.

with raising the quality of urban neighbourhoods, you are a long way

:31:05.:31:10.

to achieving quite a lot. You talk about improving well-being, but most

:31:11.:31:13.

people will say they need a job in a strong economy and better transport

:31:14.:31:17.

links to get to those jobs. Camber to work hand-in-hand? The M4 relief

:31:18.:31:23.

road and better jobs are the people of Wales and still green spaces?

:31:24.:31:29.

Transport infrastructure is hugely important in connecting places. We

:31:30.:31:39.

have too look at that as the key design opportunity of our age. We

:31:40.:31:44.

need to harness design talent to transform our neighbourhoods. But if

:31:45.:31:49.

you are stuck on the motorway, try to get to your job, you are not

:31:50.:31:53.

worried about green spaces, are you? You aren't at that specific moments,

:31:54.:31:58.

but the key word is infrastructure. You were talking about transport

:31:59.:32:06.

infrastructure, water managements infrastructure. Green elements

:32:07.:32:12.

should be combined into a wider view, a wider vision of a green

:32:13.:32:18.

infrastructure that contains them and then you harness what they are

:32:19.:32:22.

doing to provide green spaces. Conductivity is one of the key

:32:23.:32:29.

concepts one we talk about green infrastructures, the linking of

:32:30.:32:33.

things. Finally, back to the politicians. Would you say they are

:32:34.:32:37.

working against nature? The plea here from Doctor Ruth Williams is to

:32:38.:32:41.

get them to work with nature. Is that the sense you are giving us,

:32:42.:32:46.

that it is not on the agenda? In planning policy in Wells and

:32:47.:32:49.

development policy there are a number of good things we could be

:32:50.:32:55.

doing more to deliver on and part of that is a worry about cost, but I

:32:56.:32:59.

think when you look at the wider betterment and public good that you

:33:00.:33:03.

return to your investments, then we should be able to do something. And

:33:04.:33:11.

there is a future generation, are they doing their bit? They are doing

:33:12.:33:16.

their bit and they are promoting a more holistic view of things rather

:33:17.:33:20.

than focusing on just elements like transportation, but we are

:33:21.:33:27.

advocating that this idea that you can bring things together, when you

:33:28.:33:31.

think about what benefits greater than merely providing the M4

:33:32.:33:39.

corridor of the traffic relief on the motorways, when you think about

:33:40.:33:44.

people's enjoyment of their environment, the ability to use it,

:33:45.:33:48.

the beauty they can get from it and how that rebounds on their

:33:49.:33:52.

well-being. Thank you both for coming in.

:33:53.:33:54.

But if you'd like to have your say and be part of the audience

:33:55.:34:01.

for a special debate with the party leaders ahead of the Assembly

:34:02.:34:04.

E-mail us at [email protected]

:34:05.:34:06.

or on social media we are @TheWalesReport.

:34:07.:34:08.

We'll be back next week, thanks for watching.

:34:09.:34:11.

Presented by Bethan Rhys Roberts. With the Draft Wales Bill on hold, where next for devolution in Wales? Plus the final in a series of interviews with the main party leaders in Wales, with Labour's Carwyn Jones.


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