09/03/2016 The Wales Report

for the National Assembly on hold, where next for devolution in Wales?

We ask Labour leader Carwyn Jones how his party would run Wales

as we look ahead to May's assembly election.

And do green spaces in our towns and cities really

Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.

Tonight, we start with a look at how Wales is likely to be run

in the years to come and where power will lie.

And you can join in the conversation on social media with

For months politicians have been arguing over the future of the draft

Wales Bill - that's the UK government's plan for the next steps

Last week, the Welsh Secretary Steven Crabb put the legislation

Then this week the Welsh Government took the rare step of publishing

its own alternative draft bill, which in terms of devolving powers

to Cardiff Bay, goes further than Mr Crabb's document.

But many have criticised Carwyn Jones for publishing such

And there are concerns that the whole process

Felicity Evans asks how close are we to getting a devolution

Trying to get to grips with Welsh devolution is a bit like wrestling a

creature from the deep. Once you think you have it cornered, a

tentacle comes from nowhere and hits you in the head. Maybe it is the

repeated concussion that has stopped successive secretaries of State from

finding a lasting and logical settlement. To help us all keep a

clear head, let me walk you through recent devolution developments.

Check out this timeline. Don't worry, we're not going right back to

the beginning because we all have lies to get on with, so we will stop

with the Silk Commission that produced to reports. One on finance

and one other powers the Assembly should have. Silke recommended the

assembly should be based on the same as Scotland and Northern Ireland

reserved powers. In other the assembly should have control of

everything that is not explicitly restricted to Parliament. The main

recommendation has not been enacted and it is causing expensive

problems. The model we have now is Scotland's reject. The model was

rejected from Scotland when it was considered in the late 1990s because

it was considered to be a complicated way of devolving power

and they also said it would lead to arguments about what is devolved and

what is not devolved about what probably lead to litigation in the

courts. That is exactly what has happened in Wales. We have three

bills referred to the Supreme Court. And there is consensus on one thing.

No one likes this model of devolution, so a whole year after

Silk, it seemed a watershed moment when the then UK coalition

government made a headline grabbing announcement. More responsibility

for the Welsh assembly and more opportunity for the Welsh people to

hold their politicians to account. -- Welsh Assembly. It all seemed

simple, but let us move our timeline on eight months to the publication

of the draft Wales Bill. This was meant to be a consultation, but it

wasn't. The first Minister was particularly scathing. It means a

veto on Welsh laws. The Assembly not having a free hand. In addition to

the relentless criticism of the bill, there was concern that the

timetable was to type to permit remedial action. But the secretary

of state Steven Crabb said whilst the bill needed to be improved,

there was bags of time to do it. And then he changed his mind. What I

have demonstrated today is what I have been listening to all along and

I have taken on board the valid criticisms people have made and the

changes I have announced the right thing to do. The draft legislation

has been paused to make the changes needed, but a former wealth of his

Minister is not holding my breath. -- Wales office minister. I looked

around at the Conservative colleagues of the secretary of state

and there are very few if any who have a positive approach to

devolution that he has. I have been involved in this for long enough. I

have been around for long enough to be sceptical that we will actually

get what is promised until we actually have it in our hands. And

earlier this week, just be helpful, the Welsh government produced its

own draft bill. We have not taken the decision to publish this draft

Bill. There is no sense of one-upmanship, rather this bill is a

constructive contribution to the debate. With the assembly elections

nearly upon us, it seems we are not any clearer on what powers the

people we vote for will have in the future.

Neither the Secretary of State nor a Wales Office Minister

However, a spokesperson provided The Wales Report

"The Secretary of State has listened to the debate over recent months...

He has always been clear the Government will not introduce

legislation that would create a pathway to separation.

The changes will help deliver on the commitments made

in the St Davids Day agreement to introduce a historic funding

floor, devolve more powers and remove constitutional red tape

to create a stonger Wales in a strong United Kingdom."

Joining me now is the Conservative MP and member of the Welsh Affairs

Committee Craig Williams, and the Plaid Cymru AM and former

Presiding Officer Dafydd Elis Thomas.

Welcome to you both. Craig Williams, why did your government get this

draft Wales Bill so wrong to you think? In your question there you

use the word draft. We published a draft bill, we are changing a draft

bill and we are pausing as well. This is what people have been asking

and now we are being criticised to doing what people want. Steven Crabb

is one of the most pragmatic politicians I know. He has published

a draft bill, taking the criticism and has adapted it. He will come

back after the Assembly with what will be an excellent bill for Wales.

It was way off the mark so. It would result in fewer powers in the hands

of the Assembly in Cardiff Bay rather than more. It was moving to

the reserved model. It was giving them more powers. We waved the

referendum on taxation powers and giving the Assembly clearer

accountability. The criticism is about taking away powers from the

assembly and it was a detail legal technical argument by lawyers who do

argue all day over these issues. It was not technical. Let me bring in

Dafydd Elis Thomas. Is this just an Empire it is. We need to be able to

get this legislation through as soon as possible so we can plan for the

future. We are getting responsibility for the electoral

numbers and their is the difficulty of defining the powers. It is the

exceptions that are always the problem. If you look at the Northern

Ireland act, there is only one schedule. The Welsh government came

up with a blueprint this week. You have it in front of you. Is it that

way ahead? Do you back that? Absolutely. I challenge the first

Minister when he gave evidence to the committee and is wide did the

government in Wells not produce their own bill. They have done that,

so now the clever thing would be to allow the National Assembly to carry

on. We will be in charge of our constitution next time round, so why

do we start now? What about that, Craig Williams? Devolving the whole

process to the Assembly. It should be decided there, shouldn't it?

Rebuilt the Welsh government has come up with, just before an

election is incredibly interesting. Liz Savo Roberts asked about police

powers, and Labour are split on these issues. Far from it -- far be

it from me to defend everything the Welsh government does, but he has

done a Peter Hain. He gave us deferred matters with reference to

devolved power. We have that and also referred matters. You are

holding that is a bit of a blueprint. Your party in the chamber

yesterday were doing anything but. They were pretty scathing about

that. I take my own counsel on these constitutional matters. I believe

the people of Wales trust us as Assembly members, they have trusted

us over the years as we have had additional powers and this is the

next step. When you say ask, did you mean? Plaid Cymru do the Welsh

government? The people of Wells indicated quite clearly, 44% of them

want the Assembly to have more powers, 34% want us to have the same

powers. It is our responsibility to make sure that this works. When will

we this pause come to an end, Craig Williams? I hope the stance

continues apace after the Assembly elections. That is quite handy. Kick

it in the long grass? Look, it is the Welsh general elections and it

is important. I am a pro-devolution conservative as well, so Jenny does

not have too look far in the Conservative ranks, but if it pushes

in after the assembly elections, we can have a more much you -- a more

mature debate rather than getting stuck into Westminster and getting

the bill delivered. Finally, Dafydd Elis Thomas, when will we get a

lasting settlement? There is no lasting settlement in politics,

whether it is the European Union or the United Kingdom. These things

always change, there is always democratic scrutiny. Dafydd Elliston

is an Craig Williams, thank you very much. -- Dafydd Elliston.

As part of BBC Wales' How Wales Works season,

The Wales Report has been speaking to the main party leaders in Wales

to find out how they'd run things if they won power in May.

Over the past weeks, we've heard from Ukip,

the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives.

Tonight it's turn of the Labour leader in Wales, Carwyn Jones.

Before we talk to the First Minister, Professor Richard Wyn

Jones from the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University takes

a look at the challenges ahead for Labour.

This is potentially the most difficult election that the Labour

Party has faced since devolution. Labour have been in power for so

long, so the time for a change argument becomes ever stronger, and

it looks you know is if they are a little bit tired, a little bit

jaded. It is striking that so many people in the Labour group are

standing down. We now have Jeremy Corbyn, who is a mighty character,

but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he is not particularly

popular and there is lots of evidence to suggest that Welsh

Labour are trying to distance themselves from him. Now that is a

really tough combination for Carwyn Jones in the election.

The threshold for success is interesting for Labour in the Welsh

election. There is a kind of a margin between 25 which would be a

really poor result, 30 would be remarkably good. That is the range

in which we're talking here. In terms of Carwyn Jones own position,

as they can get 27, 28, that would be something of a triumph. If they

are down to 2526, his future is then in question.

You are asking the people of Wales for a fifth term in government. That

is an awful long time. Is that healthy for the Welsh people? We're

halfway through a decade of delivery and we have had a record-breaking

Tory cuts to our budget. But we've been able to deliver. We have seen

Aston Martin come to Wales, we have seen Jobs Growth Wales, unemployment

lower than London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Some people will

say it is another election, you need to look at the change that people

change their car but he wouldn't change a carphone old banger. You

are halfway through a decade of delivery. You have been in power for

17 years, you are talking about five years of delivery, whatever you been

doing for 12 years? I have then First Minister since 2009. Forget

the Rhodri Morgan years? I have been the person leading the party since

2011. Hang on, are you saying... We have got better GCSE results, the

best ever. Labour has been in power for 17 years. You have had other

people, you have been at the wheel for 17 years, talking about cars.

Let's be straight, are you disowning those first 12 years and saying we

didn't delivered a thing as Mac you delivered from day one, didn't you?

Of course we did. I went into the election in 2011 for the first time

as leader of the Welsh Labour Party. The trudging Morgan deliver? Of

course he is. But he hasn't been First Minister since 2009. I know

Plaid Cymru likes to pretend they weren't in government for four years

but they were. We are saying we're not far from it. We are not

complacent. If you look at the pledges we have launched, they are

original and our manifesto will be the same. Let's look at the pledges.

You are offering and a million two increase standards in schools. It's

built on what we have done already. That is more money in the Welsh

education system that they would have been without the pledge in

2011. Schools are being built across Wales. People can see them in their

communities. We know for example the Conservatives want to cut school

spending by 12%. That is they entered the school building

programme. Your pledge this year is 100,000

quality apprenticeships for all ages. Last election, tackling youth

unemployment is by creating a fund and extending apprenticeships. What

is the difference? If you look at Jobs Growth Wales, 15,000 young

people had the opportunity to train and many of them went on to job was

that builds on them because this is a scheme for ages. People need to

retrain at all stages. In 2011 new promised free nursery places and

better support for families, this time, free childcare for working

parents. We were talking about flying start in 2011 and that will

stay. We know how difficult it is for people to get childcare and that

is why we're making sure for 30 hours a week, 48 weeks year parents

will be able to get access to childcare. It is important for

people in terms of accessibility Vostok was these tweaks in what you

are offering. There is no radical been thinking. You have been there

for 17 years. But Kimberly says Wales need a break. -- but Plaid

Cymru. Doubling the capital limits of people who go into residential

care, older people, that is not radical. These are radical pledges.

Plaid Cymru, what are they offering? They want to set up a quango. They

want to centralise all health services in that they have run from

Cardiff. We offer jobs, Plaid Cymru offers committees. You don't want to

talk about the constitution that you have published 180 pages on the

constitution, on alternative draft Wales Bill. Is that wise to do that?

There was nothing else on the table. The UK Government had a chance that

it was so flawed nobody supported it. It is important for the people

of Wales to see what we think is the way forward. What I want to do is

get to a position where everything is settled, will we understand what

the Assembly can do, what the UK Government does, whether it is no

confusion and this is the big opportunity. Lots of things included

are the things your own party members in Westminster have

abstained on. You need a word with them. I spoke to them last week. We

know that things have changed. We know we want to see devolution move

forward and above all as Scotland get certainty, Wales get forge. We

don't want that. Why should we be in the worse position than Scotland.

Can I ask, that is the Welsh Government document. Who has been

working on that? You're civil servants? It is our response to the

UK Government. Is that the best use of Welsh civil servants? If we

hadn't done that you would be sitting there saying, you have told

is what you don't like about the UK Government Bill, what is your

response? Way have you been? Why didn't you put that on the table

when it comes to the Saint Davids the agreements? That is mythical,

there has never been an agreement or negotiation. We made the point it

was deeply flawed but there were others making the same point. We

worked on this bill as an alternative for months. As a

response to the UK Government 's's failures. We have wasted a year when

we could've been moving forward. But this is an electioneering because

it's about the agenda and you don't tell Stephen Crabb in advance we are

trying this up. You dump this on his desk, how would you feel if you did

the to you? That is exactly what he did. He dumped a Wales Bill honours

without consulting us. But it was licensed the legislation. --

Westminster legislation. We were told they would be a negotiation but

there wasn't one. Here is your bill, like it or lump it. It isn't just

as. All the parties in Wales said it was an acceptable. As part of our

response people would have told this what our alternative is, this is at.

Ron Davies said devolution is a process not an event. This week you

said let's make devolution and event and not a process. Is this its? Is

this as fight you want to go down this journey? What this bill would

do is provide this with piracy, simplicity and something that is

durable for the future in one act. You don't want income tax powers, do

you? Yes, I have said so. I explained what I would do with them.

Of course we accept income tax powers are going to come, there will

be a case in future for new powers as well. Why not ask for them now?

We couldn't have them now. That is a trap here. What we will not do is

accept the powers if we find that we're going to be stuffed in terms

of the financial settlements. Most of the were still come to Wales by a

block grant. That has to be sorted. Otherwise we are falling into a

trap. They would ideally have settled that. However, this is it

come in terms of the delusion you don't want to get any further? In

terms of the big picture if this was enacted your bill would be a good

smack it takes us to a position where things will be durable for

many years. It is is something missing in its people need to see

what they think is missing. This is a bill for discussion, we're not

saying everything is set in stone. It is a genuine attempt to bring the

parties together and look at it. We have told the Wales Office to look

at it. This is a better way of doing it. What about your personal

journey? Would you say the full-term of this election? It is pushy and

arrogant politicians to give their own self-imposed term limit when

there is an election coming. It is up to the people of Wales in May

whether I am First Minister or not. Are you going to disappear halfway

through I will you play the course? And beyond? The first thing is to

see what the result is. I am not going to tell the people of Wales

what I want to do, it is in their hands. There is presidency. Tony

Blair, David Cameron were clear with the electorate. You would serve the

whole term if you would win? It is far too early to know what the

result of the election would be. Let's pretend you win. Will you

serve a full term? I've got no plans to do otherwise. Let's wait to see

what happens but I want to be First Minister after me and my intention

is to continue. We're not going to sit back and expect votes to come to

us. It is a tough election, all elections out. The longer you are in

power the tougher it gets. You have hinted in the past, ten years is

about right for a leader. You're ten years would be up before the end of

the next full-term. I want to win the election in May one. What we

want to do is put forward to the people of Wales well costed,

exciting promises. We've got the drive, the energy and the momentum.

Carwyn Jones, thank you. That was the last of our wet interviews with

the party leaders. If you want to get involved in discussions please

contact us. Wales is a country with a fantastic

natural environment But why are so many of our towns

and cities grey and drab? Research in recent years has found

that access to good quality green spaces can have long lasting

benefits for our mental health, so what should be done to bring

nature into our built Dr Ruth Williams from

the Landscape Institute argues that the answer could lie

in green infrastructure - that's finding natural solutions

to urban problems like flood There's so many different ways

the environment can help us. There are so many health benefits

research is showing, both our mental health and physical

health can be helped as well as reducing flood risk,

as well as providing There is multiple benefits and ways

the environment can help us. A green infrastructure is a way

of delivering that for us. Green infrastructure is working

with nature around our developments. So it can be a simple as a border

of lavender that can act as a barrier to stop children

falling down a steep bank. It can be from the very local

and small-scale to a massive scale in terms of the way we might design

around a new motorway or around It is always looking at working

with nature and seeing what we have got rather than building

the concrete and then saying, why have we ended up

with these problems? What is important is our urban

communities in south east Wales, north east Wales, many of those

communities don't have There isn't the nature

on their doorstep, there are few parks that people can reach

all greenery in their streets. This is very, very important at that

streetscape level that we actually see this green infrastructure

coming to the fore. It's about thinking more cleverly

about the way we plan these areas. Here we are in Llanelli town centre

but this is typical of the scene We don't see much evidence

of green infrastructure here. What we'd like to see much more

bringing nature into our towns and cities so we can get this

win-win situation for the health and benefits of the people

as well as the places. Everyone that is involved

in planning a development needs to think right from point one

of building in green infrastructure into every single development

and taking that forward. That is the big change we need

to see in Wales. We are here in Llanelli at a special

project that Dwr Cymru This doesn't look like a huge

project but underneath the ground a lot of work has gone on in order

to reduce the flooding for the local Michelle, if you hadn't

taken this approach, what would have been another way

of tackling these problems? We did a modelling exercise

which said we would need a storage tank to the field which would be

the same size as Parc y Scarlets We reduced the cost to around

150 million so it is a massive Here we see a really good example,

albeit it a small example, of the win-win situation for Wales,

benefits for the local people in terms of reducing flood

to their homes and also providing a lovely green space

for them to enjoy. What we are calling

on the new Welsh Government after the election to do is to take

some leadership in this area. One of the ways we think they can do

this is by appointing a cabinet So many different aspects

to our lives will be enhanced if we look at things through a green

lens rather than through the typical Joining me now is Carole-Anne

Davies, chief executive of the Design Commission for Wales,

and landscape architect, Welcome to you both. Merry, I. With

you. We are blessed in Wales with a fantastic countryside. Can we really

say that the people of Wales aren't privileged? Well, I think we do have

the potential for access to wonderful green spaces and the

coastline of course as we saw in that film, but what of the things

you have to think about is, as was pointed out, city centres, town

centres, urban areas, housing estates, the level of access to

green space that people have in that context and how easy is it for them

to get out into this green environment? Carol Ann, is it a

matter of a few hanging baskets? A few pots heaven there? It is not

about that, is it? Is it far deeper, and also about a cultural shift? It

can be about the cultural shift, it's also about integrated

partnerships and all sectors working together. The really successful

examples of what you might describe as urban shorelines are in the

European centres and it is about everyone working together and

realising the value of what the green infrastructure can deliver.

What can it offer? Health benefits as well as the utilities. Water

management is one of the issues of our age. If you can combine that

with raising the quality of urban neighbourhoods, you are a long way

to achieving quite a lot. You talk about improving well-being, but most

people will say they need a job in a strong economy and better transport

links to get to those jobs. Camber to work hand-in-hand? The M4 relief

road and better jobs are the people of Wales and still green spaces?

Transport infrastructure is hugely important in connecting places. We

have too look at that as the key design opportunity of our age. We

need to harness design talent to transform our neighbourhoods. But if

you are stuck on the motorway, try to get to your job, you are not

worried about green spaces, are you? You aren't at that specific moments,

but the key word is infrastructure. You were talking about transport

infrastructure, water managements infrastructure. Green elements

should be combined into a wider view, a wider vision of a green

infrastructure that contains them and then you harness what they are

doing to provide green spaces. Conductivity is one of the key

concepts one we talk about green infrastructures, the linking of

things. Finally, back to the politicians. Would you say they are

working against nature? The plea here from Doctor Ruth Williams is to

get them to work with nature. Is that the sense you are giving us,

that it is not on the agenda? In planning policy in Wells and

development policy there are a number of good things we could be

doing more to deliver on and part of that is a worry about cost, but I

think when you look at the wider betterment and public good that you

return to your investments, then we should be able to do something. And

there is a future generation, are they doing their bit? They are doing

their bit and they are promoting a more holistic view of things rather

than focusing on just elements like transportation, but we are

advocating that this idea that you can bring things together, when you

think about what benefits greater than merely providing the M4

corridor of the traffic relief on the motorways, when you think about

people's enjoyment of their environment, the ability to use it,

the beauty they can get from it and how that rebounds on their

well-being. Thank you both for coming in.

But if you'd like to have your say and be part of the audience

for a special debate with the party leaders ahead of the Assembly

E-mail us at [email protected]

or on social media we are @TheWalesReport.

We'll be back next week, thanks for watching.