18/05/2016 The Wales Report


With five weeks until the EU referendum, Huw learns what impact an in or out vote will have on farming in Wales. Plus the latest from the Senedd with Felicity Evans.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 18/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



A special edition of The Wales Report tonight -


from Wales to Westminster and beyond.


Here in London, the Queen opened a new session


of Parliament against the ever-present backdrop


And I am here at the Senedd, where Carwyn Jones was elected as the new


First Minister amidst some robust, some might say unparliamentary,


exchanges. Good evening ? welcome


to The Wales Report. It's been a busy day in Cardiff Bay


and here at Westminster, where the new session of Parliament


was opened by the Queen, who set out the Conservative plans


for the year ahead ? including that elusive Wales Bill,


defining new powers We'll have more on that


in a short while. And don't forget,


you can join tonight s conversation on social media -


the hashtag is thewalesreport. That Wales Bill will be a prime


focus for the Senedd and the First Minister,


so let s join Felicity Evans in Cardiff, where things


have certainly moved Yes, stalemate are resolved. Carwyn


Jones was selected, as expected, as the new First Minister but it was


clear from today's statements that the chamber could be a bearpit for


the new administration. Despite the deal we have heard so


much about, Leanne Wood was not taking a particularly consensual


approach. I am not sorry about what happened last week and I will do it


again, if I have to make Labour realise they are running a minority


Government. What we saw last week from that party was arrogance. It


was complacency and what we saw was a sense of entitlement on display.


After that, Ukip's Neil Hamilton ramped up the language several


notches with comments that shocked some AMs. So I am afraid that these


two ladies have just made themselves political concubines in car when --


Carwyn Jones' harem. And what a gruesome prospect that must be.


Let's ask ourselves what reward they have obtained for this inauspicious


position. After a challenging first day in the Chair last week, it is


clear the new presiding Officer Ellen Jones has the work -- her work


cut out for her. So after the exchange of the chamber, how are


Plaid and Labour likely to get on in this Assembly? Leanne Wood joins me


now. Today, you and Kirsty Williams were referred to by Neil Hamilton,


the Ukip leader, as concubines in Carwyn Jones' harem. What you make


of that sort of language being used in the chamber? There were a number


of sexist exchanges this afternoon, I think I counted four references to


sexual references. We are not used to that kind of debate here in the


National Assembly so I guess having Ukip is going to take a bit of


getting used to, but I don't think we should be that surprised, given


whether politics come from. Should the presiding officer have stepped


in it? Do you regard it as unparliamentary language? I would


like to look at the record and consider what was said and I am


certainly planning to speak to the new presiding officer because whilst


we saw some sex which language today -- sexist language today, what next?


Racist language, homophobic language which where is the line going to be


drawn? Some pretty robust language within the normal sphere of


political dialogue from you today, calling Labour bullies, arrogant,


complacent. Was that a smoke screen to disguise the fact that you don't


have a very big prize to show for this week's delay in confirming


Carwyn Jones is First Minister? This time last week, the First Minister


could have been elected and opposed unemployed come route could have won


nothing -- and Plaid Cymru would have won nothing, but five out of


our key pledges, nine key pledges, I would say in one vote in one


afternoon here, five Camry has managed to win more for the Welsh


people than the Conservatives managed to win an entire term last


time. With respect, you have agreed to agree on the think you had pretty


much agreed on. That is not a great victory. That is not true, there was


a lot of debate in the last election about the new drugs and treatments


are. You both wanted one, they were in both manifestos, more GPs, more


apprenticeships in the manifestos. Can I pin you down on the new drugs


and treatment fund? Labour's proposal was not to end the postcode


lottery, to continue with the exception allergy causes, whereby


people would lose out on a new drug or treatment if someone in the


vicinity have had that already. What has been agreed today is to end the


postcode lottery and that is something the campaigners were


calling for. We have also managed to get our national infrastructure


commission in their hand that provides a vehicle for some of our


other key priority is not, like the Bangor medical school. -- other key


priorities. You also talked about the M4, what you described is unfair


voting, the schools register, you listed the things you failed to


achieve. The new minority Government will need another party to work with


them to get the rest of their programme through every budget. They


can either deal with the Ukip and the Tories, and after the smears


that came out toward Plaid last week for just voting with those two


parties, I would find it very difficult to see how the First


Minister could go to those two. So why not hold out for one of the big


prizes, for one of the things you said today you hadn't managed to get


out of Labour? That the say about the M4, we prefer the blue route...


But you haven't got it, after this week. I can tell you now, we will


not agree a budget with Labour if there is any money allocated to the


Blackwood of the M4. We have got power beyond today. What we did


today was one of the vote to allow Labour's nomination for First


Minister to go through. Our hands are not tied in any other way but we


have managed to win some serious concessions. These concessions have


been won for people, it is not about ministerial cars and salaries for


politicians, they are games for the people of Wales. We will talk about


how the mechanisms will work in a second but can I make sure I


understand what you are saying about the conditionality of your support


for the future budget for some are you saying unless the Labour party


above the black route and go for the blue Ridge, they will not get Plaid


Cymru support for the budget? I have said that all along, Plaid Cymru


will not support any budget that has provision for the black route. We


think it is expenditure, it is not acceptable and is confined to one


part of Wales when the infrastructure investment is


required throughout the country. So that is the totemic issue for you


heading to the budget, the M4? We have plenty of totemic issues, a la


manifesto includes 180 policies. Year you are not holding out for


them all to approve the budget? We will have priorities and the M4 is


just one contentious issue, we will have others. But you have raised


this as the next hostage, really, haven't you? For this next minority


Government, the passing of the budget. We stood for election on a


manifesto of transport and change... What other key issues ahead of the


budget? You will have to wait and see for the budget negotiations for


that but we can see our priorities and what we oppose from this


Government and we don't intended to change our position. So explain the


election issue, there are representatives of Plaid Cymru,


civil servants, but no agreement has to be reached. What is the point?


The point is that Plaid Cymru will have an early opportunity to input


into the Welsh Government's programme of legislation and budget


if we so choose. And they can decide to disregard you under this


agreement? If they decide to disregard what it is we want, they


have to deal with another party to get their budget. So why do you need


a liaison committee? When we have entered into budget negotiations in


the past, the process is quite late in the day, the decisions that are


made tend to be around ticket price items, without looking at the budget


across all departments. This will give us the opportunity to look at


the budget as a whole and we will be in a position to decide whether or


not we want to allow Labour to... The liaison committee sounds like a


fig leaf. What is the purpose? You don't have to agree anything, you


could withhold support without a liaison committee, why have it? You


are right. This is something that allows Plaid Cymru to get closer to


the process, if that is what we want to do. I am determined to use the


budgetary process and any other vehicle we can, including liaison


committees, to get as many Plaid Cymru proposals through as possible.


We promised to be the change Wales needs at the last election and if we


get our programme through, Wales will see big changes as a part of


Plaid Cymru's actions. Leanne Wood, thank you for joining


us. This fifth Assembly isn't just different because of the presence of


Ukip and the change in arithmetic, there is a substantial intake of new


a.m. S. Jeremy Menez is the new a.m. For Neath, welcome to the programme


and congratulations on your election. Today in the chamber, a


couple of female a.m. S were referred to as concubines. What did


you think of that language? I thought it was shocking and horrible


for all the females in the chamber but also horrible for anybody who


thinks that of its cares about the language in public office in Wales


and I hope we don't hear any more of it. Some pretty robust language all


round. Leanne Wood accusing your party of smearing, of bullying, of


arrogance and complacency, this after week in you failed to get the


First Minister selected. It has been a pretty humbling start, hasn't it,


for your party? I think it has been clear from the start that although


we were the largest party, with 29 seats and in that sense, we have the


first opportunity to form a Government, obviously because we


don't have a majority, we can only govern in consultation with the


other parties. That has been clear from the start, in fact, and


actually, what I was pleased about today is that we have got to a point


where the Assembly has nominated Carwyn Jones as the First Minister.


We have had a period of obviously intensive discussions between the


Labour Party and Plaid Cymru and during those discussions, a number


of areas of common ground have been identified and that is obviously


very positive going forward. It will have to go on like that. You heard


Leanne Wood say today that she was expecting concessions from Labour at


every turn and the next hurdle would be the budget and that is the


position your party is in as a minority Government, isn't it? What


has been agreed as part of the deal between the two parties is the


establishment of three liaison committees between the Government


and Plaid Cymru as the principal opposition party, which will be


staffed by civil servants and I think the objective of those must be


to ensure those points of friction, if you like, are kept to a minimum,


by having a dialogue around key pieces of legislation. It remains to


be seen how that is going to work when you are a minority and you have


a new, muscular opposition, effectively saying you want us to


support your budget, you have to back down on the black route for the


new M4, for example. You think there will be an appetite for that within


the Labour group? It is to be seen how it plays out in the future, but


I think what the agreement, for my money at least, has established as a


basis on which it benefits all parties to have greater transparency


and scrutiny of legislative powers and so I think that will be a


benefit. You are just going to get kicked around, aren't you? We have


seen that this week, and it is going to continue. I don't think that'll


happen. We have an agreement where we are happy that the manifesto


priorities we set out, read childcare, infrastructure, GPs and


so on, all those things are things that have been identified in the as


areas of priority. They are the low hanging fruit, the think you have


common ground on. Coming up to the budget of the things you won't have


common ground on, the really difficult things Angie will have to


give some major concessions. The point of having a finance liaison


committee for example is to make the process as soon smooth as possible


and there has been a recognition from the start that as a Government


with 29 seats, it doesn't give us a majority to govern and as we did in


the last Assembly, successfully, Carwyn Jones and the Cabinet were


able to negotiate with other parties to ensure we got programmes through.


That happened very successfully. It was a much easier environment.


For a minority Labour Government to navigate. Clearly from the first


week it is clear this won won't be. The mathematics were different, but


you heard Carwyn make it clear today that although we have 29 seats, we


understand that we need to govern in discussion with other parties. Thank


you very much. That was Felicity Evans with


the latest from the Senedd there. So here at Westminster today,


the Queen has been listing the Government's legislative


programme for the coming term. Among the things discussed


were prison reform, that is one of the main headlines,


a list of some 21 measures in the Queen's Speech,


and a mention too of that So with that in mind,


I'm going to introduce the Wales Office Minister,


the Conservative MP Guto Bebb. Well, I think the bill is almost


ready to be introduced in Parliament but obviously I think


there is a respect agenda between Westminster and Cardiff,


and therefore it's imperative that we see the nature and the form


of the Government in Cardiff before But I would be very confident over


the bill being introduced Well, that's good, that


gives us a good sense. And how confident are you that some


of the very big concerns raised by Carwyn Jones and others


in Cardiff will have been addressed Well, I think there has been a very


long listening process, It didn't meet with universal


acclaim, it is fair to say, but we did produce the bill in order


to allow pre-legislative scrutiny, which happened,


the Welsh Select Committee reported, various stakeholders in Wales


indicated what they were happy with and what they


were unhappy with. So I think a lot of the concerns


which have been raised will be addressed, but they do need to be


addressed on a cross-governmental basis, we need to have


buy-in to the Wales Bill from the Welsh Government


and therefore any delay that we now have is basically waiting


for the new Welsh Government to indicate whether they are happy


with the concessions and the changes But just to underline,


that talk of the necessity test, There are some reservations


which have been maintained but that is in relation to,


for example, no change in the legislation in relation


to what constitutes a murder in the United Kingdom,


which most people would understand, Reflecting on the process itself


and where you've got to today, are there things that should have


been done differently? Because lots of people are saying


that initial first offering that you brought up was clearly not


acceptable and clearly Well, I find that criticism very odd


because I would argue that the Wales Office did exactly


what we should be doing in Parliament, which is to bring


forward a proposal for discussion, Indeed, in addition to being


a Wales Office minister, I've spent about a third of my time


in the whip's office and many in the whip's office would argue


that we need to do more of bringing forward proposed legislation,


so there is an opportunity for Parliament and the wider


population to just offer their views as to whether the legislation


is making sense or not. So I know there have been


criticisms of the legislation as proposed last autumn,


but I would argue that the opportunity to comment on that


legislation was a strength and the fact that the Wales Office


paused and was quite happy to go back to the drawing board to make


sure we reflected some of the concerns raised,


that should be a positive, Well, that's a positive, Minister,


but you know as well as I do that there was some surprise


in the Wales Office that the opposition to that bill


was as acute as it was. I think when you develop


your own legislation, obviously there is a degree


of ownership and no one likes to see their own work


criticised in any way, But I think the previous Secretary


of State was very open that the criticism in relation


to the necessity test, for example, And rather than carry on with a bill


that was getting no support from the Assembly, for example,


I think the decision to pause was reflective of the feedback


received and I think it shows a mature view of how we work


through the issues and the challenges that


devolution brings us. The quick point I wanted to raise


from today's Queen's Speech, because there is a very significant


element of prison reform and in North Wales, of course,


in Wrexham, one of the most modern prisons in the world


is about to be opened. Why isn't Wrexham then on the list


of the six prisons that are going to get this new experiment,


giving governors much more autonomy? Well, I think the reason


for that is that Wrexham is already building up on best practice already


within the prison sector. I think everybody acknowledges


that there is a need to look again at the way in which we are reforming


and helping people to reform The broader context


of the Queen's Speech, I don't think anyone will deny


that we have a big European context, This week, we have had


Lord Heseltine making a very, very strong attack on Boris Johnson,


just again underlining the depth of the divisions


in your party as you approach it. You have got five


weeks of this to come. How concerned are you that the party


is actually tearing Well, I think tearing ourselves


apart might be slightly overstating it, but it is undoubtedly


an uncomfortable period The Conservative Party


is neutral on this issue, I'm bound to wonder as well,


Minister, you know, how possible When you look at the kind


of antipathy that is evident now in this debate, how much


of a problem is it going to be for people to come together


after this campaign? Well, I think first of all,


all colleagues need to reflect upon their use of language,


because I think that is unfortunate. We do need to make sure that we show


respect to each other's arguments. There are people on both sides


of this argument who are very strong in their views but they are doing it


with a degree of respect towards each other,


and we will have a huge job in putting the party back together


after this referendum. But I don't think that's beyond any


of the realms of possibility. I think we have a very strong view


that the Conservative Party has a further four years


in Government and when this referendum is done and dusted,


it is imperative that we move on, as this Queen's Speech has shown,


quite clearly, with a positive So I would say to everybody,


you know, calm down We have our views but


they should be expressed Minister, we will talk again,


I hope, during the campaign. So after all the events


of the past few weeks, we now have a new government


in Cardiff Bay, a first minister elected and


the political focus is fully engaged on the EU referendum


in five weeks time. Here on the Wales Report,


we ll spend the next few weeks looking at some


of the main factors ? with a series of special


reports and interviews. And tonight we ll start


with agriculture, because the farming industry is not only


important to Wales it s also been heavily dependent


on EU subsidies under the Common Agricultural


Policy or CAP, which eats up an enormous 39%


of the current EU budget. Felicity Evans has been to meet


two farmers on opposing This year's lambing season was as


ever a busy time for Welsh hill farmers. Brian has been farming for


most of his life and he has received EU subsidies for most of the the


time. Sheep and cattle are the most common type of farming in Wales and


most get that support. Many worry if Britain leaves the EU that support


would be lost. But leave campaigners say the UK Government would replace


the subsidies. But the uncertainty worries Brian. He said it would be


hard to stay in business without them. Not unless the price of the


products we are selling would have to double to be able to sort of


factor in the cost of producing it. I mean we are told that if we are


exit that we will have a support. But what? Nobody's telling us what.


There is money set aside for it, but what? We don't know. But some


sectors of the industry don't receive any subsidies, poultry and


pig farming for example. There are not many pig farmers in Wales, but


Ken is one. He thinks British farmers would be better offoutside


the EU and those who receive subsidy would learn to survive without it.


Like he has to. As a pig producer we get no support, not that we are


looking for support. What about your colleagues who say you may not get


subsidies, but we do and they are important and they come from the EU.


If nay lose their subsidies they will re-evaluate and a year or 18


months they then will move forward. Wales two farming unions have in


favour of Britain remaining in the EU. That is not just about


subsidies, but the single market, the core principle of the freedom of


movement of goods and services, this is the idea that Welsh producers


have unfetterred access to consumers on the continent. But some say the


single market is far from a level playing field. We are breeding


ourselves and we keep them in straw that is comfortable and keep it as


natural as can. Ken has concern about welfare standards in other EU


states. Not only do standards here be higher, but he thinks the EU


standards are not enforced, making it harder for him to compete with


European farmers. So Ken wants out of single market so that the UK


government can have more control over the sort of pork products being


import. The standards in Europe basically is that mainly they


packing as much as they can into a unit. So that the growing pigs have


less movement. They don't have straw. So they're on concrete. It is


bad for their joints and it is not comfortable. It is like us sleeping


on a concrete floor. So obviously, with, they do that just to keep


labour costs down and pipe food in and I think that there should be


more regulation to come in. More control. And specially the welfare


standard. Ken doesn't export any of his pork. He competes for British


customers. But his business is different. He exports his lamb to


the EU. He says the single market is vital. Some who support a British


exit argue we could leave the EU and still negotiate continued access to


the single market. But Brian doesn't like the uncertainty. Well the key


reasons is we have got 500 million consumers of our produce in Europe


and 80 to 90% of lamb I'm producing go to Europe, the market place. It


is on your doorstep. It is something that I feel is critical in


agriculture in Wales. If there was facts and guarantees on the table


signed deals to say our market is still there, and we know what we are


doing, where we are going, maybe I would consider a few different


avenues. But none of that is in place. And I think it is ludicrous


to exit the EU when we don't know what we will have. For Brian the


single market means an open door to 27 other countries. But for Ken, it


means competition from those other countries here at home. For farmers,


what they're selling and where they're selling it may well dictate


their views on EU membership. I'm joined now by the Conservative


MP David Davies on behalf of Vote David, was that a fair summary of


the debate about the EU in the context of farming in Wales?


Couldn't give ten out of ten to that one. It is all well to concentrate


on subsidies, but there are a lot of sheep and lamb and cattle farmers


who want to come out of the EU. And everyone's confident that even if we


come out, some form of subsidy will continue at the same level as it is


now, because we would have more money and could double the subsidies


if we came out. Other nobody is suggesting that. The Prime Minister


said he would guarantee the subsidies. You could have spoken to


a sheep or cattle farmer and I put you in touch with plenty. The point


it is not one thing, subs idies have been a focal point of the debate for


many years. What did you think of the cases there? What was


interesting was what Brian said about the uncertainty. I must take


issue that you say there would be certainty that the subsidy would


continue. That is where the leap into the dark is occurring. There is


no guarantee whatsoever that these subsidies would continue and we are


looking at a situation and both of the farming unions in Wales are


saying this, you look back over the last 20 years, 40 years, we have got


Governments have been in favour of reducing the Common Agricultural


Policy budget. Would they continue subs dips at the same level and also


at liberalising food imports. This faith here if the farming industry


were to find itself in a situation where Britain leaves Europe, there


is real uncertainty as to whether they would be support and 80% of


farmers in Wales, the majority are sheep and cattle farmers and are


dependent on the CAP. The figures are interesting in 2015 UK farmers


received over euro 3 billion in direct support, in Wales I have a


figure for the single payment scheme in 2013 ?250 million. Those are big


sums and in a context where we have a Government with big financial


challenges, surely no one is in position to give guarantees that


subsidies would continue. No one can guarantee they can continue when the


next round of CAP comes around. But they have existed for decades. They


existed for decades before we came into the EU, since the Second World


War there have been subsidies. Perhaps we should be talking to


other sheep and cattle farmers who have different opinions on this. But


the other important was about the free market. Actually it is not a


case of some Brexit people suggest we would get a free trade agreement.


Everyone is certain we would, because it is more in the interests


of the EU to have that agreement than for us to have it with them.


The problem is the uncertainty isn't there. It is not a case of people


saying, other certain that would be the case, when people who would be


in a position to offer the deal are saying, oh, hang on, you know, there


could be consequences. Are the French Government to say to French


wine makers and say you're out of work and can't export to the UK or


the Danish say that to pig producers and others say that to their beef


producers. We are spending three times as much on food imports from


the EU as we export. The funny thing is it would be in interests of


farmers if there was no agreement. On the point of exports, 90% of beef


and lamb export from Wales goes to EU. The NFU has been looking at the


nature of trade agreements and Breck sit have been talking about the free


trade agreement. There is only effective when they have that 100%


payment. When that is reduced, they lose between 8,000 and 20,000 pounds


a year. That is not necessarily as good as it seems unless we have the


subsidies in place. The concept about uncertainty, because there


will be farmers watching and I thought the point made about having


facts and certainty is something we will hear more about, hopefully we


as media and journalists can provide some facts. The uncertainty, what


you're asking is for some farmers to take a leap in the dark and take a


step towards an uncertain future. What would you say? No, it is pure


common-sense that it is in the interest of everyone to have a free


trade agreement. We don't need a free trade agreement to trade. We


are doing more trade with America, but we don't have a free trade


agreement. It is a conceit to suggest that politicians, the MPs


are responsible for all the trade between countries. We are not


responsible. People get together and buy and sell things all the time. We


sometimes make it easier. But we should have a free trade agreement


with Europe. Everyone agrees that and it that it would be possible,


including people like Lord Kerr, the former UK ambassador to the EU. They


say it is straight forward to do that. The problem is you were part


of what they call project fear, you are simply there to say it is going


to be terribly dangerous and uncertain you shouldn't consider


this step. It is all to do with trying to give people cause for


concern. The reality is there is uncertainty and that it will be a


political decision that would resolve whatever situation we arrive


in, following the referendum. You have got to look then, make a


serious disigs and think -- decision and think is there a political


decision in terms of agriculture that result in farmers increase Ogg


decreasing their income. We will see that replaced by this Government,


the Tory Government, I don't believe that? David Cameron has made it


clear we would be and the real uncertainty is what will happen if


we continue in the EU and no guarantee of subsidies and that we


will increase trade, our trade with the EU is diminishing. We will be


back I guarantee that. Of course course We'll of course be coming


back to the forthcoming EU referendum over


the coming weeks with a series of special reports


and interviews and there will be a special debate


in the week before the vote. If you'd like to get in touch


with us about that or anything else, email us


at [email protected], or follow us on social media ?


we re @TheWalesReport. We'll be back next week,


thanks for watching.


With five weeks until the referendum on Britain's membership of the EU, what impact will an in or out vote have on farming in Wales? Huw Edwards presents, and Felicity Evans has the latest from the Senedd.

Download Subtitles