Browse content similar to 18/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
A special edition of The Wales Report tonight - | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
from Wales to Westminster and beyond. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Here in London, the Queen opened a new session | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
of Parliament against the ever-present backdrop | :00:09. | :00:10. | |
And I am here at the Senedd, where Carwyn Jones was elected as the new | :00:11. | :00:23. | |
First Minister amidst some robust, some might say unparliamentary, | :00:24. | :00:24. | |
exchanges. Good evening ? welcome | :00:25. | :00:25. | |
to The Wales Report. It's been a busy day in Cardiff Bay | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
and here at Westminster, where the new session of Parliament | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
was opened by the Queen, who set out the Conservative plans | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
for the year ahead ? including that elusive Wales Bill, | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
defining new powers We'll have more on that | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
in a short while. And don't forget, | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
you can join tonight s conversation on social media - | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
the hashtag is thewalesreport. That Wales Bill will be a prime | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
focus for the Senedd and the First Minister, | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
so let s join Felicity Evans in Cardiff, where things | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
have certainly moved Yes, stalemate are resolved. Carwyn | :01:02. | :01:14. | |
Jones was selected, as expected, as the new First Minister but it was | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
clear from today's statements that the chamber could be a bearpit for | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
the new administration. Despite the deal we have heard so | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
much about, Leanne Wood was not taking a particularly consensual | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
approach. I am not sorry about what happened last week and I will do it | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
again, if I have to make Labour realise they are running a minority | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
Government. What we saw last week from that party was arrogance. It | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
was complacency and what we saw was a sense of entitlement on display. | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
After that, Ukip's Neil Hamilton ramped up the language several | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
notches with comments that shocked some AMs. So I am afraid that these | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
two ladies have just made themselves political concubines in car when -- | :02:00. | :02:08. | |
Carwyn Jones' harem. And what a gruesome prospect that must be. | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
Let's ask ourselves what reward they have obtained for this inauspicious | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
position. After a challenging first day in the Chair last week, it is | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
clear the new presiding Officer Ellen Jones has the work -- her work | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
cut out for her. So after the exchange of the chamber, how are | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
Plaid and Labour likely to get on in this Assembly? Leanne Wood joins me | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
now. Today, you and Kirsty Williams were referred to by Neil Hamilton, | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
the Ukip leader, as concubines in Carwyn Jones' harem. What you make | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
of that sort of language being used in the chamber? There were a number | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
of sexist exchanges this afternoon, I think I counted four references to | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
sexual references. We are not used to that kind of debate here in the | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
National Assembly so I guess having Ukip is going to take a bit of | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
getting used to, but I don't think we should be that surprised, given | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
whether politics come from. Should the presiding officer have stepped | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
in it? Do you regard it as unparliamentary language? I would | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
like to look at the record and consider what was said and I am | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
certainly planning to speak to the new presiding officer because whilst | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
we saw some sex which language today -- sexist language today, what next? | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
Racist language, homophobic language which where is the line going to be | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
drawn? Some pretty robust language within the normal sphere of | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
political dialogue from you today, calling Labour bullies, arrogant, | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
complacent. Was that a smoke screen to disguise the fact that you don't | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
have a very big prize to show for this week's delay in confirming | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
Carwyn Jones is First Minister? This time last week, the First Minister | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
could have been elected and opposed unemployed come route could have won | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
nothing -- and Plaid Cymru would have won nothing, but five out of | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
our key pledges, nine key pledges, I would say in one vote in one | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
afternoon here, five Camry has managed to win more for the Welsh | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
people than the Conservatives managed to win an entire term last | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
time. With respect, you have agreed to agree on the think you had pretty | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
much agreed on. That is not a great victory. That is not true, there was | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
a lot of debate in the last election about the new drugs and treatments | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
are. You both wanted one, they were in both manifestos, more GPs, more | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
apprenticeships in the manifestos. Can I pin you down on the new drugs | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
and treatment fund? Labour's proposal was not to end the postcode | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
lottery, to continue with the exception allergy causes, whereby | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
people would lose out on a new drug or treatment if someone in the | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
vicinity have had that already. What has been agreed today is to end the | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
postcode lottery and that is something the campaigners were | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
calling for. We have also managed to get our national infrastructure | :05:19. | :05:20. | |
commission in their hand that provides a vehicle for some of our | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
other key priority is not, like the Bangor medical school. -- other key | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
priorities. You also talked about the M4, what you described is unfair | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
voting, the schools register, you listed the things you failed to | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
achieve. The new minority Government will need another party to work with | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
them to get the rest of their programme through every budget. They | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
can either deal with the Ukip and the Tories, and after the smears | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
that came out toward Plaid last week for just voting with those two | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
parties, I would find it very difficult to see how the First | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
Minister could go to those two. So why not hold out for one of the big | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
prizes, for one of the things you said today you hadn't managed to get | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
out of Labour? That the say about the M4, we prefer the blue route... | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
But you haven't got it, after this week. I can tell you now, we will | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
not agree a budget with Labour if there is any money allocated to the | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
Blackwood of the M4. We have got power beyond today. What we did | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
today was one of the vote to allow Labour's nomination for First | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
Minister to go through. Our hands are not tied in any other way but we | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
have managed to win some serious concessions. These concessions have | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
been won for people, it is not about ministerial cars and salaries for | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
politicians, they are games for the people of Wales. We will talk about | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
how the mechanisms will work in a second but can I make sure I | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
understand what you are saying about the conditionality of your support | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
for the future budget for some are you saying unless the Labour party | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
above the black route and go for the blue Ridge, they will not get Plaid | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
Cymru support for the budget? I have said that all along, Plaid Cymru | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
will not support any budget that has provision for the black route. We | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
think it is expenditure, it is not acceptable and is confined to one | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
part of Wales when the infrastructure investment is | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
required throughout the country. So that is the totemic issue for you | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
heading to the budget, the M4? We have plenty of totemic issues, a la | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
manifesto includes 180 policies. Year you are not holding out for | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
them all to approve the budget? We will have priorities and the M4 is | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
just one contentious issue, we will have others. But you have raised | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
this as the next hostage, really, haven't you? For this next minority | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
Government, the passing of the budget. We stood for election on a | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
manifesto of transport and change... What other key issues ahead of the | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
budget? You will have to wait and see for the budget negotiations for | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
that but we can see our priorities and what we oppose from this | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
Government and we don't intended to change our position. So explain the | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
election issue, there are representatives of Plaid Cymru, | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
civil servants, but no agreement has to be reached. What is the point? | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
The point is that Plaid Cymru will have an early opportunity to input | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
into the Welsh Government's programme of legislation and budget | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
if we so choose. And they can decide to disregard you under this | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
agreement? If they decide to disregard what it is we want, they | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
have to deal with another party to get their budget. So why do you need | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
a liaison committee? When we have entered into budget negotiations in | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
the past, the process is quite late in the day, the decisions that are | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
made tend to be around ticket price items, without looking at the budget | :09:04. | :09:11. | |
across all departments. This will give us the opportunity to look at | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
the budget as a whole and we will be in a position to decide whether or | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
not we want to allow Labour to... The liaison committee sounds like a | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
fig leaf. What is the purpose? You don't have to agree anything, you | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
could withhold support without a liaison committee, why have it? You | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
are right. This is something that allows Plaid Cymru to get closer to | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
the process, if that is what we want to do. I am determined to use the | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
budgetary process and any other vehicle we can, including liaison | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
committees, to get as many Plaid Cymru proposals through as possible. | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
We promised to be the change Wales needs at the last election and if we | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
get our programme through, Wales will see big changes as a part of | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
Plaid Cymru's actions. Leanne Wood, thank you for joining | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
us. This fifth Assembly isn't just different because of the presence of | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
Ukip and the change in arithmetic, there is a substantial intake of new | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
a.m. S. Jeremy Menez is the new a.m. For Neath, welcome to the programme | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
and congratulations on your election. Today in the chamber, a | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
couple of female a.m. S were referred to as concubines. What did | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
you think of that language? I thought it was shocking and horrible | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
for all the females in the chamber but also horrible for anybody who | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
thinks that of its cares about the language in public office in Wales | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
and I hope we don't hear any more of it. Some pretty robust language all | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
round. Leanne Wood accusing your party of smearing, of bullying, of | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
arrogance and complacency, this after week in you failed to get the | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
First Minister selected. It has been a pretty humbling start, hasn't it, | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
for your party? I think it has been clear from the start that although | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
we were the largest party, with 29 seats and in that sense, we have the | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
first opportunity to form a Government, obviously because we | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
don't have a majority, we can only govern in consultation with the | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
other parties. That has been clear from the start, in fact, and | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
actually, what I was pleased about today is that we have got to a point | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
where the Assembly has nominated Carwyn Jones as the First Minister. | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
We have had a period of obviously intensive discussions between the | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
Labour Party and Plaid Cymru and during those discussions, a number | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
of areas of common ground have been identified and that is obviously | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
very positive going forward. It will have to go on like that. You heard | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
Leanne Wood say today that she was expecting concessions from Labour at | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
every turn and the next hurdle would be the budget and that is the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
position your party is in as a minority Government, isn't it? What | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
has been agreed as part of the deal between the two parties is the | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
establishment of three liaison committees between the Government | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
and Plaid Cymru as the principal opposition party, which will be | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
staffed by civil servants and I think the objective of those must be | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
to ensure those points of friction, if you like, are kept to a minimum, | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
by having a dialogue around key pieces of legislation. It remains to | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
be seen how that is going to work when you are a minority and you have | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
a new, muscular opposition, effectively saying you want us to | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
support your budget, you have to back down on the black route for the | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
new M4, for example. You think there will be an appetite for that within | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
the Labour group? It is to be seen how it plays out in the future, but | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
I think what the agreement, for my money at least, has established as a | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
basis on which it benefits all parties to have greater transparency | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
and scrutiny of legislative powers and so I think that will be a | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
benefit. You are just going to get kicked around, aren't you? We have | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
seen that this week, and it is going to continue. I don't think that'll | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
happen. We have an agreement where we are happy that the manifesto | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
priorities we set out, read childcare, infrastructure, GPs and | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
so on, all those things are things that have been identified in the as | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
areas of priority. They are the low hanging fruit, the think you have | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
common ground on. Coming up to the budget of the things you won't have | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
common ground on, the really difficult things Angie will have to | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
give some major concessions. The point of having a finance liaison | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
committee for example is to make the process as soon smooth as possible | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
and there has been a recognition from the start that as a Government | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
with 29 seats, it doesn't give us a majority to govern and as we did in | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
the last Assembly, successfully, Carwyn Jones and the Cabinet were | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
able to negotiate with other parties to ensure we got programmes through. | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
That happened very successfully. It was a much easier environment. | :13:57. | :14:06. | |
For a minority Labour Government to navigate. Clearly from the first | :14:07. | :14:15. | |
week it is clear this won won't be. The mathematics were different, but | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
you heard Carwyn make it clear today that although we have 29 seats, we | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
understand that we need to govern in discussion with other parties. Thank | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
you very much. That was Felicity Evans with | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
the latest from the Senedd there. So here at Westminster today, | :14:30. | :14:31. | |
the Queen has been listing the Government's legislative | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
programme for the coming term. Among the things discussed | :14:35. | :14:36. | |
were prison reform, that is one of the main headlines, | :14:37. | :14:38. | |
a list of some 21 measures in the Queen's Speech, | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
and a mention too of that So with that in mind, | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
I'm going to introduce the Wales Office Minister, | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
the Conservative MP Guto Bebb. Well, I think the bill is almost | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
ready to be introduced in Parliament but obviously I think | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
there is a respect agenda between Westminster and Cardiff, | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
and therefore it's imperative that we see the nature and the form | :15:02. | :15:02. | |
of the Government in Cardiff before But I would be very confident over | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
the bill being introduced Well, that's good, that | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
gives us a good sense. And how confident are you that some | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
of the very big concerns raised by Carwyn Jones and others | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
in Cardiff will have been addressed Well, I think there has been a very | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
long listening process, It didn't meet with universal | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
acclaim, it is fair to say, but we did produce the bill in order | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
to allow pre-legislative scrutiny, which happened, | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
the Welsh Select Committee reported, various stakeholders in Wales | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
indicated what they were happy with and what they | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
were unhappy with. So I think a lot of the concerns | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
which have been raised will be addressed, but they do need to be | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
addressed on a cross-governmental basis, we need to have | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
buy-in to the Wales Bill from the Welsh Government | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
and therefore any delay that we now have is basically waiting | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
for the new Welsh Government to indicate whether they are happy | :15:56. | :15:57. | |
with the concessions and the changes But just to underline, | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
that talk of the necessity test, There are some reservations | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
which have been maintained but that is in relation to, | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
for example, no change in the legislation in relation | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
to what constitutes a murder in the United Kingdom, | :16:12. | :16:13. | |
which most people would understand, Reflecting on the process itself | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
and where you've got to today, are there things that should have | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
been done differently? Because lots of people are saying | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
that initial first offering that you brought up was clearly not | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
acceptable and clearly Well, I find that criticism very odd | :16:28. | :16:29. | |
because I would argue that the Wales Office did exactly | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
what we should be doing in Parliament, which is to bring | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
forward a proposal for discussion, Indeed, in addition to being | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
a Wales Office minister, I've spent about a third of my time | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
in the whip's office and many in the whip's office would argue | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
that we need to do more of bringing forward proposed legislation, | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
so there is an opportunity for Parliament and the wider | :16:52. | :16:53. | |
population to just offer their views as to whether the legislation | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
is making sense or not. So I know there have been | :17:00. | :17:01. | |
criticisms of the legislation as proposed last autumn, | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
but I would argue that the opportunity to comment on that | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
legislation was a strength and the fact that the Wales Office | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
paused and was quite happy to go back to the drawing board to make | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
sure we reflected some of the concerns raised, | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
that should be a positive, Well, that's a positive, Minister, | :17:17. | :17:18. | |
but you know as well as I do that there was some surprise | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
in the Wales Office that the opposition to that bill | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
was as acute as it was. I think when you develop | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
your own legislation, obviously there is a degree | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
of ownership and no one likes to see their own work | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
criticised in any way, But I think the previous Secretary | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
of State was very open that the criticism in relation | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
to the necessity test, for example, And rather than carry on with a bill | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
that was getting no support from the Assembly, for example, | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
I think the decision to pause was reflective of the feedback | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
received and I think it shows a mature view of how we work | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
through the issues and the challenges that | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
devolution brings us. The quick point I wanted to raise | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
from today's Queen's Speech, because there is a very significant | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
element of prison reform and in North Wales, of course, | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
in Wrexham, one of the most modern prisons in the world | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
is about to be opened. Why isn't Wrexham then on the list | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
of the six prisons that are going to get this new experiment, | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
giving governors much more autonomy? Well, I think the reason | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
for that is that Wrexham is already building up on best practice already | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
within the prison sector. I think everybody acknowledges | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
that there is a need to look again at the way in which we are reforming | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
and helping people to reform The broader context | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
of the Queen's Speech, I don't think anyone will deny | :18:30. | :18:48. | |
that we have a big European context, This week, we have had | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
Lord Heseltine making a very, very strong attack on Boris Johnson, | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
just again underlining the depth of the divisions | :18:56. | :18:57. | |
in your party as you approach it. You have got five | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
weeks of this to come. How concerned are you that the party | :19:01. | :19:02. | |
is actually tearing Well, I think tearing ourselves | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
apart might be slightly overstating it, but it is undoubtedly | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
an uncomfortable period The Conservative Party | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
is neutral on this issue, I'm bound to wonder as well, | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
Minister, you know, how possible When you look at the kind | :19:14. | :19:23. | |
of antipathy that is evident now in this debate, how much | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
of a problem is it going to be for people to come together | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
after this campaign? Well, I think first of all, | :19:31. | :19:32. | |
all colleagues need to reflect upon their use of language, | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
because I think that is unfortunate. We do need to make sure that we show | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
respect to each other's arguments. There are people on both sides | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
of this argument who are very strong in their views but they are doing it | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
with a degree of respect towards each other, | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
and we will have a huge job in putting the party back together | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
after this referendum. But I don't think that's beyond any | :19:51. | :19:52. | |
of the realms of possibility. I think we have a very strong view | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
that the Conservative Party has a further four years | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
in Government and when this referendum is done and dusted, | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
it is imperative that we move on, as this Queen's Speech has shown, | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
quite clearly, with a positive So I would say to everybody, | :20:04. | :20:05. | |
you know, calm down We have our views but | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
they should be expressed Minister, we will talk again, | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
I hope, during the campaign. So after all the events | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
of the past few weeks, we now have a new government | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
in Cardiff Bay, a first minister elected and | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
the political focus is fully engaged on the EU referendum | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
in five weeks time. Here on the Wales Report, | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
we ll spend the next few weeks looking at some | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
of the main factors ? with a series of special | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
reports and interviews. And tonight we ll start | :20:32. | :20:33. | |
with agriculture, because the farming industry is not only | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
important to Wales it s also been heavily dependent | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
on EU subsidies under the Common Agricultural | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
Policy or CAP, which eats up an enormous 39% | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
of the current EU budget. Felicity Evans has been to meet | :20:46. | :20:47. | |
two farmers on opposing This year's lambing season was as | :20:48. | :20:59. | |
ever a busy time for Welsh hill farmers. Brian has been farming for | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
most of his life and he has received EU subsidies for most of the the | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
time. Sheep and cattle are the most common type of farming in Wales and | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
most get that support. Many worry if Britain leaves the EU that support | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
would be lost. But leave campaigners say the UK Government would replace | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
the subsidies. But the uncertainty worries Brian. He said it would be | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
hard to stay in business without them. Not unless the price of the | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
products we are selling would have to double to be able to sort of | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
factor in the cost of producing it. I mean we are told that if we are | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
exit that we will have a support. But what? Nobody's telling us what. | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
There is money set aside for it, but what? We don't know. But some | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
sectors of the industry don't receive any subsidies, poultry and | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
pig farming for example. There are not many pig farmers in Wales, but | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
Ken is one. He thinks British farmers would be better offoutside | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
the EU and those who receive subsidy would learn to survive without it. | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
Like he has to. As a pig producer we get no support, not that we are | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
looking for support. What about your colleagues who say you may not get | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
subsidies, but we do and they are important and they come from the EU. | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
If nay lose their subsidies they will re-evaluate and a year or 18 | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
months they then will move forward. Wales two farming unions have in | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
favour of Britain remaining in the EU. That is not just about | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
subsidies, but the single market, the core principle of the freedom of | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
movement of goods and services, this is the idea that Welsh producers | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
have unfetterred access to consumers on the continent. But some say the | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
single market is far from a level playing field. We are breeding | :23:10. | :23:19. | |
ourselves and we keep them in straw that is comfortable and keep it as | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
natural as can. Ken has concern about welfare standards in other EU | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
states. Not only do standards here be higher, but he thinks the EU | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
standards are not enforced, making it harder for him to compete with | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
European farmers. So Ken wants out of single market so that the UK | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
government can have more control over the sort of pork products being | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
import. The standards in Europe basically is that mainly they | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
packing as much as they can into a unit. So that the growing pigs have | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
less movement. They don't have straw. So they're on concrete. It is | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
bad for their joints and it is not comfortable. It is like us sleeping | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
on a concrete floor. So obviously, with, they do that just to keep | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
labour costs down and pipe food in and I think that there should be | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
more regulation to come in. More control. And specially the welfare | :24:27. | :24:35. | |
standard. Ken doesn't export any of his pork. He competes for British | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
customers. But his business is different. He exports his lamb to | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
the EU. He says the single market is vital. Some who support a British | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
exit argue we could leave the EU and still negotiate continued access to | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
the single market. But Brian doesn't like the uncertainty. Well the key | :24:56. | :25:03. | |
reasons is we have got 500 million consumers of our produce in Europe | :25:04. | :25:11. | |
and 80 to 90% of lamb I'm producing go to Europe, the market place. It | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
is on your doorstep. It is something that I feel is critical in | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
agriculture in Wales. If there was facts and guarantees on the table | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
signed deals to say our market is still there, and we know what we are | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
doing, where we are going, maybe I would consider a few different | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
avenues. But none of that is in place. And I think it is ludicrous | :25:40. | :25:48. | |
to exit the EU when we don't know what we will have. For Brian the | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
single market means an open door to 27 other countries. But for Ken, it | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
means competition from those other countries here at home. For farmers, | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
what they're selling and where they're selling it may well dictate | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
their views on EU membership. I'm joined now by the Conservative | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
MP David Davies on behalf of Vote David, was that a fair summary of | :26:11. | :26:27. | |
the debate about the EU in the context of farming in Wales? | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
Couldn't give ten out of ten to that one. It is all well to concentrate | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
on subsidies, but there are a lot of sheep and lamb and cattle farmers | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
who want to come out of the EU. And everyone's confident that even if we | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
come out, some form of subsidy will continue at the same level as it is | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
now, because we would have more money and could double the subsidies | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
if we came out. Other nobody is suggesting that. The Prime Minister | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
said he would guarantee the subsidies. You could have spoken to | :27:00. | :27:07. | |
a sheep or cattle farmer and I put you in touch with plenty. The point | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
it is not one thing, subs idies have been a focal point of the debate for | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
many years. What did you think of the cases there? What was | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
interesting was what Brian said about the uncertainty. I must take | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
issue that you say there would be certainty that the subsidy would | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
continue. That is where the leap into the dark is occurring. There is | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
no guarantee whatsoever that these subsidies would continue and we are | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
looking at a situation and both of the farming unions in Wales are | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
saying this, you look back over the last 20 years, 40 years, we have got | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
Governments have been in favour of reducing the Common Agricultural | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
Policy budget. Would they continue subs dips at the same level and also | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
at liberalising food imports. This faith here if the farming industry | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
were to find itself in a situation where Britain leaves Europe, there | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
is real uncertainty as to whether they would be support and 80% of | :28:13. | :28:21. | |
farmers in Wales, the majority are sheep and cattle farmers and are | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
dependent on the CAP. The figures are interesting in 2015 UK farmers | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
received over euro 3 billion in direct support, in Wales I have a | :28:36. | :28:45. | |
figure for the single payment scheme in 2013 ?250 million. Those are big | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
sums and in a context where we have a Government with big financial | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
challenges, surely no one is in position to give guarantees that | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
subsidies would continue. No one can guarantee they can continue when the | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
next round of CAP comes around. But they have existed for decades. They | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
existed for decades before we came into the EU, since the Second World | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
War there have been subsidies. Perhaps we should be talking to | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
other sheep and cattle farmers who have different opinions on this. But | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
the other important was about the free market. Actually it is not a | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
case of some Brexit people suggest we would get a free trade agreement. | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
Everyone is certain we would, because it is more in the interests | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
of the EU to have that agreement than for us to have it with them. | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
The problem is the uncertainty isn't there. It is not a case of people | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
saying, other certain that would be the case, when people who would be | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
in a position to offer the deal are saying, oh, hang on, you know, there | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
could be consequences. Are the French Government to say to French | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
wine makers and say you're out of work and can't export to the UK or | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
the Danish say that to pig producers and others say that to their beef | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
producers. We are spending three times as much on food imports from | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
the EU as we export. The funny thing is it would be in interests of | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
farmers if there was no agreement. On the point of exports, 90% of beef | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
and lamb export from Wales goes to EU. The NFU has been looking at the | :30:31. | :30:39. | |
nature of trade agreements and Breck sit have been talking about the free | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
trade agreement. There is only effective when they have that 100% | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
payment. When that is reduced, they lose between 8,000 and 20,000 pounds | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
a year. That is not necessarily as good as it seems unless we have the | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
subsidies in place. The concept about uncertainty, because there | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
will be farmers watching and I thought the point made about having | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
facts and certainty is something we will hear more about, hopefully we | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
as media and journalists can provide some facts. The uncertainty, what | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
you're asking is for some farmers to take a leap in the dark and take a | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
step towards an uncertain future. What would you say? No, it is pure | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
common-sense that it is in the interest of everyone to have a free | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
trade agreement. We don't need a free trade agreement to trade. We | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
are doing more trade with America, but we don't have a free trade | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
agreement. It is a conceit to suggest that politicians, the MPs | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
are responsible for all the trade between countries. We are not | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
responsible. People get together and buy and sell things all the time. We | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
sometimes make it easier. But we should have a free trade agreement | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
with Europe. Everyone agrees that and it that it would be possible, | :32:05. | :32:12. | |
including people like Lord Kerr, the former UK ambassador to the EU. They | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
say it is straight forward to do that. The problem is you were part | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
of what they call project fear, you are simply there to say it is going | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
to be terribly dangerous and uncertain you shouldn't consider | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
this step. It is all to do with trying to give people cause for | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
concern. The reality is there is uncertainty and that it will be a | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
political decision that would resolve whatever situation we arrive | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
in, following the referendum. You have got to look then, make a | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
serious disigs and think -- decision and think is there a political | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
decision in terms of agriculture that result in farmers increase Ogg | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
decreasing their income. We will see that replaced by this Government, | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
the Tory Government, I don't believe that? David Cameron has made it | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
clear we would be and the real uncertainty is what will happen if | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
we continue in the EU and no guarantee of subsidies and that we | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
will increase trade, our trade with the EU is diminishing. We will be | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
back I guarantee that. Of course course We'll of course be coming | :33:19. | :33:29. | |
back to the forthcoming EU referendum over | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
the coming weeks with a series of special reports | :33:32. | :33:33. | |
and interviews and there will be a special debate | :33:34. | :33:35. | |
in the week before the vote. If you'd like to get in touch | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
with us about that or anything else, email us | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
at [email protected], or follow us on social media ? | :33:42. | :33:42. | |
we re @TheWalesReport. We'll be back next week, | :33:43. | :33:44. | |
thanks for watching. | :33:45. | :33:47. |