08/06/2016 The Wales Report

With just under two weeks to go until we go to the polls to decide

the future of Britain's membership of the European Union,

we hear from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party.

And protecting the past for future generations,

should more be done to safeguard historic buildings in Wales?

Good evening, and welcome to The Wales Report.

Remember, you can join in the debate on social media.

Much of the focus of the referendum battle so far has been blue on blue,

with Conservatives who want to remain taking on those

Before we hear from two prominent members of the party in Wales

with very different views, political commentator

Professor Laura McAllister gives her verdict on the campaign so far.

If we listen to the opinion polls, it looks as if voting patterns in

Wales are similar to those in England. I don't think there has

been a Welsh campaign. The whole campaign and the two voices for

Remain and Leave have been dominated by a small group of men in the

Conservative Party or on the fringes. We have not seen as much of

Nigel Farage as we might have expected, it has been about Boris

Johnson, Michael Gove, David Cameron and George Osborne. It has been very

limited and elitist. We have come out of this with the public

dissatisfied about the referendum as a device. It has to be divisive get

people to from being not sure into yes or no. What is interesting,

hardly anybody, with a cute exceptions, are rigidly guest or no,

most of the population could see the arguments on both sides. If you talk

to people on the ground, they may be 70% Remain and 30% Leave, or the

other way around, but we have not had good quality, trustworthy

information that has persuaded people in the group in the middle,

sometimes as big as a quarter of the population, to feel clear they are

making the choice will be right reasons.

I'm joined now by the Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns.

Picking up on the point there, she is right that there has not been a

Welsh campaign. This has been about the UK Conservative Party in the

main. It is much bigger than any one political party. It is bigger than

any one general election, it will set the scene for the next 20, 30,

40 years. That is why it is so important, when it comes. I have

stood on the same platform as Labour assembly members and Liberal

Democrat politicians. I have stored on a cross-party basis. It is

natural the UK media seem to dominate these issues. Looking at

the campaign and the issues in Wales, Europe means something

different in Wales, because you could argue we are beneficiaries,

whereas the UK are net contributors. You could say it is an indictment of

the state of the Welsh economy that we qualify for the EU money. This is

much bigger than any EU aid that comes to Wales, although it is

important, and it is the only way of reassuring that we will get that

support if there is an invoked when the referendum comes. The reason it

is bigger, it is about the economy. So much of our economy depends on

the single European market. Tata is one example, we are looking to find

a purchaser, new investment, not only at Port Talbot but across the

UK. It is fundamental to the economic interest and productivity

of Wales. 69% of the steel output from the UK goes to Europe. You try

finding an investor if you tell them that 69% of your customers will be

withdrawn at a certain date. It is far more likely that we will find an

investor. That is why it demonstrates why it is so important

that people think long and hard about this referendum and about how

they vote. It would devastate the Port Talbot community and the whole

Manufacturing base of the UK, as the Leave campaign have said. Your

opponents would disagree. Note... EU exports, they are down in the past

12 months, down 13%. Welsh exports to the EU. You can pick any one

year, they naturally fluctuate and move. Let's go back to what the

Leave campaign have said. Let's go to you on EU exports. We know how

important manufacturing exports are. But the Leave campaign's chief

economist has confessed and accepted that leaving the single European

market would devastate our manufacturing base. I think

manufacturing is too important to write it off so we can depend purely

on some service sector jobs, many of which will be focused in London and

the south-east. This is important to the economy in Wales, as is

manufacturing being important to the communities in Wales. We will hear

from the other side later. Lots of the concerns of people are about the

fact that perhaps the money that we would lose if we were to leave

Europe would then not come from the UK Government. You can guarantee you

would not set Welsh farmers adrift or companies who depend on EU

grants? You would fill that gap? Before any money can be distributed

from the Treasury, from taxpayers, you have to have a successful

economy that pays for it. That is why the single market is so

important. I have highlighted manufacturing, it is so important to

our farming base. That is why the farming bodies are supporting the in

campaign and recommending that farmers vote in, simply on the basis

that Welsh lamb and beef and produce get free access to the single

European market. One of the most famous farmers, the leader of your

party in Wales, once out. We know that the French farmers and the

French Government would rightly act in their interests, we have had

history of that with the beef on the bone ban. I am talking about the

leader of your party in Wales, he wants out, he is a farmer. We used

the European mechanisms to force the French to back down on a standpoint

they took to protect their farmers. If we were outside the EU, they

would raise the drawbridge to our produce. Have you told Andrew RT

Davies he has got it wrong? It is bigger than any individual or party.

It is cross-party. If you take 90% of economists, so many of the

business people in Wales, so much of civic society, but more importantly,

it is about the jobs and communities, such as Tata, the small

companies that make components, the supply chains to tempt him's to

Tata. The automotive sector... You are not answering the question, so I

would like to move on. If Wales were to vote to remain and the UK were to

vote to leave, what would you do? We recognise that it is the UK at the

member state, we are all important parts of the family of the UK, but

the reality is if the UK chose to leave, we know that Scotland is

already perpetuating an argument they would want to look at the issue

of independence again, so it could lead to constitutional pressures.

And in Wales? It would lead to more economic uncertainty, that is what

worries me. If we are to improve the lives of people, with prosperity,

with drops, it comes down to the economy. You have made that point.

Just on Wales, if Wales wants to stay in but the UK says, let's go,

what power would you have, if any, to make your case at the Cabinet

table? I will always make the case in Wales' interest, that it would

lead to constitutional pressures, obviously, as we know that Scotland

have said they would be looking at a second referendum. That would lead

to further uncertainty, business and investment does not like

uncertainty. The economic interests of Wales would be undermined even

further, and those jobs that have been created, we had a hat-trick of

good news just last month, employment is rising, and implement

is falling, all of that could be undermined in one fell swoop. If it

is outcome should David Cameron go? Absolutely not. He has committed to

the referendum, people said he would never do so, he has lived up to his

promise. But this is bigger than him. It is such an important

decision, it is fundamental to our prosperity, to the public services

that live off the taxes that are raised on the back of successful

businesses and people going out and earning money, that is what pays for

the health service, education provision. It is such an important

issue. Anything that will undermine the economy is damaging. Can I just

ask about the Wales Bill published yesterday? You talk about clarity

and accountability. But there is a more conciliatory tone between you

and the First Minister on this version. Except on policing. I want

to explore why not make Welsh police accountable to the Welsh Government.

Clarity and accountability have been the guiding principles through the

whole of the drafting of this bill. It is about a constitutional issue.

I want to free the Welsh Government to legislate to matter to real

people. They can introduce laws that will help create prosperity, deliver

better public services, there has been too much confusion of who is

responsible. I believe we have already devolved the Police and

Crime Commissioner, we had the elections for that, they should set

the priority within their area. Centralising policing in Cardiff or

Cardiff Bay for the whole of the UK, I don't think that is the right way

forward. It is better to have Police and Crime Commissioner is in the

force area is, where they can reflect the priorities in those

communities. The priorities for Dyfed-Powys Police the front from

the priorities for South Wales Police. Real devolution, where it is

closer to communities, is more effective in delivering on that sort

of policy area. We've heard the case for Britain

to remain in the EU, so now let's hear from the opposite

side of the debate, and from the leader

of the Welsh Conservatives in Wales, Why did you think it is so important

for Wales to leave? The question on the ballot paper is simple, do we

continue with our relationship and go further into a political union of

the superstate of Europe, or do we pull ourselves out and become a

trading nation, which UK and Wales have historically always been? We

can be stronger out of a political union that is the inevitable journey

that has been taken by the bureaucrats in Brussels. I asked

about Wales, because Wales is a net beneficiary from being in the EU.

The UK is not, it is a contributor, it gets less out of it and it puts

him. It is not the picture for Wales. Wales is part of the UK, I am

a proud unionist, I believe that Wales and are fitted from being in

the union of the UK. The UK has not benefited from being in this

political project that is an ever closer union on the continent. I

want to remain good neighbours with our friends and allies on the

continent, but I believe Wales and the UK could be stronger by spending

its own many within its own borders and holding the politicians to

account by a them to the various parliaments and assemblies of the

UK. But UID leader of the party in Wales

and -- dear not recognise UID leader of the party in Wales, and steal not

recognise that Wales benefits? That is why we have a stand-alone

referendum. Everyone's boat is as important of the next man and woman.

That is why the Conservative Party deserve a huge amount of credit for

putting forward a referendum on this important issue. We have seen by the

surge in voter registration, and enthusiasm for registration. People

want to take part in this referendum. You talk about trade and

business and as a Leave campaigner, small businesses... ?

In support of the euro. You have a huge businessman in Wales

supporting Remain. You have people wanting to stay. You are willing to

jeopardise all that in order to leave the EU? At is not the case. We

can unshackle many businesses the length and breadth of Wales and the

United Kingdom. 100% of businesses have to be shackled by the red tape

of Europe. If you have more than 50 trade

agreements beyond the EU with the rest of the world and would have to

renegotiate that and how long would that take?

There is also a trade deficit that the European Union or the countries

of the European Union, with many billions more pounds of goods into

the UK bank goes out. We have traded for hundreds of years across the

globe as a trading nation and I believe we would be more successful

unshackle ourselves from the red tape and bureaucracy of Brussels,

holding our own politicians to account. There is no such thing as

European money, spending our money. The length and breadth of Wales and

the United Kingdom, quality jobs and decent take-home pay.

You are a businessman and benefit from EU subsidies.

Yes, we have a small fraction of money coming back from Brussels.

If you're willing to fork forfeit that in order to get the money

direct from London... What would you say to a farmer who does not have a

second salary and is not a politician? He wants to keep that

money, and once Wales to stay in the EU.

I offer two examples of the things that have held him back on his

business. The first is the loss of health farm support payments taken

out why Carwyn Jones, as he told us, because of EU regulations. And

on-farm burial, a proposal brought forward across the continent of the

Europe to deal with a specific issue in Holland which added a huge cost

to farmers they like and breadth of the UK but in Wales importantly. It

is an obligation on every national Government to have food security...

You can guarantee that a UK Conservative Government would give

all that money that comes to Wales by the EU, it would still come to

Wales? You can guarantee that? I would suggest that if any

Government turned its back on food security it would be neglecting its

duty of securing the nation 's future.

Can you guarantee... ? No politician can guarantee anything

in the future because it is democracy that counts and who gets

voted in... But that is what makes people

nervous. But if you look at the way the

common agricultural policy is developing and expansion in Europe,

with six or seven countries coming in, the common agricultural policy

is a shrieking part of the overall budget. Every seven years,

renegotiation and that gets smaller. We would be fighting to make sure

that the larger part of that money would be coming to Wales, not

Whitehall but Wales, to be spent on the priorities of the Welsh

Government. If you win, should David Cameron

resign? He has a five year mandate. This is

one part of our manifesto, the referendum. The Prime Minister led

us to a majority Government only 14 months ago and it is important and

imperative that the Government get on with the excellent job they have

been doing, securing the public finances...

So you do not want Boris Johnson in number ten?

We know there will be a leadership challenge. The Prime Minister has

said he will not fight the 2020 general election... He has a

five-year mandate, the Prime Minister. The then minister along

with colleagues at the top of Government have work to stabilise

the finances and create a Government with creating quality jobs...

Back to Boris Johnson, do you want him in number ten Downing St? You

have just said he will be stepping down if they can before the next

general election, is Boris Johnson the man?

The first hurdle... Who do you back?

That is not only to say. The parliamentary colleagues will

nominate two individuals to go to the wider party membership. Party

colleagues in Westminster will have that... I am clear who I want to

leave but it is not for me to interject at this time. The Prime

Minister has a five-year mandate and it is important he serves that...

Very briefly... You acknowledge you are a divided party. Can you kiss

and make up after this? We are a successful party which won

a general election 14 months ago and has a growing economy that is the

envy of the world. We have national defence back on a level playing

field. We have improved education, and are responsible for that. We are

a party that has delivered. Thank you very much.

The first one annoying pound deal in the world was struck there and after

years of uncertainty, the iconic coal exchange in Cardiff Bay is at

eight crucial junction. forward to give the building

a new lease of life as a hotel, The proposal is now awaiting

planning permission and costings Campaigners warn that the building

is still in danger, and the work needs to happen as

quickly as possible. So how can we ensure that our most

important historic buildings in Wales are protected and restored

in a way that's both Before we discuss that,

here's filmmaker Nick Broomfield's reaction on visiting

Butetown in Cardiff for the first time since 1969

for his documentary "Going Going Gone: Nick Broomfield's

Disappearing Britain". The BBC documentary reveals his

anger at the state of the building. Look at that. That is really screwed

up. The coal exchange was my favourite building when I lived in

Cardiff, and when I recently read it was faced with demolition, I came

back to visit my old friend. Hello. Come on in. I am Lisa. Here is the

main hall, which we are not allowed into any more. The council has put a

restrictive order on it because they believe it is dangerous.

So we cannot go in? Unfortunately, no. You cannot argue

with council health and safety, they are the bosses.

Why do you think they want to close it?

That is a long story. Let's go up to the office. This is the building in

occupation, and that is the floor of the exchange full of traders.

What you are doing must take a lot of time and energy.

It has been interesting and I have done a lot of campaigning over the

years but never came across something where there is so much

sentiment locally, support and emotional attachment to the idea

that this place should rise again. I'm joined now by Professor

Annette Pritchard and Madeline Gray is from the University

of South Wales and Annette Pritchard is from the Welsh Centre for tourism

research. Professor Pritchard, we saw on that old board at the

beginning of the piece, seeking a future. It is so difficult to secure

that future. It is difficult to arrange funding.

These future icons are so important to the visitor economy of Wales, but

it wills itself, the places and people we are. One of the stories we

tell of each other, and what are the stories we tell to the world?

Without those stories and buildings, it would become a place without a

place. No history or heritage. We need to work to manage and bring

these buildings to life again. Has it got into this with the coal

exchange specifically? The problem is we need to see it in

a bigger picture. Bigger than this one iconic building. In Cardiff dock

area we have a number of beautiful buildings, a lot of which need care

and attention. We have to think about how we find a proper use for

them. It is not going to work if we just conserve the building as an

icon. It has got to have an end use. And proposals for a Hotel, for

example? Private money coming in, is that the way forward?

An excellent idea. There is no use trying to preserve it as a heritage

centre, which just does not work. I don't think there is any point just

trying to conserve one building standing on its own.

But how do you then preserve the integrity of the building? A hotel

could move in and make it more or less and minimalist, and is that the

future? You must respect the integrity of the building, don't

you? You do, and I think most developers

interested in bringing life back to an old building and developing it

would respect that. It is the unique selling point for the building to

talk about its history and role in the wider community and world. To be

able to say, within this hotel, the first million pound cheque was

signed. This building dictated coal prices around the world. Those are

important stories to tell, which developers would make use of enabled

way. Then it can... If you look at the marketability of

Saint pancreas hotel in London, it could be... It could be a St Pancras

of Cardiff. And this company have developed a

hotel in Liverpool and things like that. It is about bringing those

stories to life... Should it be moved brick by brick?

That is a huge tourist attraction. We do heritage extremely well in

some places. Is that the future of these buildings? But there is the

cost. I would think this could serve as

the catalyst for the regeneration of historic Butetown in general. There

are wonderful buildings and I think of this can be brought back to life

that is a template which could be used in other buildings. To tell the

stories of the people of Butetown and in Cardiff Bay we do not get

those stories just now. It is not just about Cardiff. We

have all hospitals and gorgeous buildings and their future is in

jeopardy. When you look at the budgets of heritage, it includes

media and so forth, 0.5% of the Welsh Government. It cannot only be

public money. It is our biggest growth industry,

heritage tourism. It needs more public funding, it ought to, but you

have got the problem of finding an end use body-building. Almost always

that involves the public cell sector. -- public sector.

Do we have too much emphasis on conservation?

Not too much emphasis on conservation. What you need is the

balance between conservation and an end use for the building. Otherwise

it will not work in 20 or 30 years, and we will have the problems again

down the line. To end on the coal exchange, it is

crisis time. You cannot go in the main hall because it is dangerous.

There is a fear it could completely fall down unless of thing is done

quickly. What needs to be done? This Hotel development is anyway its

best chance of survival. I think that kind of the element, harnessing

the private and public sector together is the only way forward.

And those who would argue against the hotel, saying it disturbs the

integrity of the iconic building? The danger is what happens to it at

that does not happen. They should, with a better idea.

Thank you, Professors. There won't be a programme next

Wednesday, but join Huw Edwards for a special debate

on the referendum If you'd like to get

in touch with us about that or anything else, email us

at [email protected], or follow us on social media -

the hashtag is #TheWalesReport. I've brought you all here

to lay out a vision - a team of radio presenters

without equal.