08/06/2016 The Wales Report


With just two weeks to go to the EU Referendum Bethan Rhys Roberts hears from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party from opposite sides of the debate.

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With just under two weeks to go until we go to the polls to decide


the future of Britain's membership of the European Union,


we hear from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party.


And protecting the past for future generations,


should more be done to safeguard historic buildings in Wales?


Good evening, and welcome to The Wales Report.


Remember, you can join in the debate on social media.


Much of the focus of the referendum battle so far has been blue on blue,


with Conservatives who want to remain taking on those


Before we hear from two prominent members of the party in Wales


with very different views, political commentator


Professor Laura McAllister gives her verdict on the campaign so far.


If we listen to the opinion polls, it looks as if voting patterns in


Wales are similar to those in England. I don't think there has


been a Welsh campaign. The whole campaign and the two voices for


Remain and Leave have been dominated by a small group of men in the


Conservative Party or on the fringes. We have not seen as much of


Nigel Farage as we might have expected, it has been about Boris


Johnson, Michael Gove, David Cameron and George Osborne. It has been very


limited and elitist. We have come out of this with the public


dissatisfied about the referendum as a device. It has to be divisive get


people to from being not sure into yes or no. What is interesting,


hardly anybody, with a cute exceptions, are rigidly guest or no,


most of the population could see the arguments on both sides. If you talk


to people on the ground, they may be 70% Remain and 30% Leave, or the


other way around, but we have not had good quality, trustworthy


information that has persuaded people in the group in the middle,


sometimes as big as a quarter of the population, to feel clear they are


making the choice will be right reasons.


I'm joined now by the Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns.


Picking up on the point there, she is right that there has not been a


Welsh campaign. This has been about the UK Conservative Party in the


main. It is much bigger than any one political party. It is bigger than


any one general election, it will set the scene for the next 20, 30,


40 years. That is why it is so important, when it comes. I have


stood on the same platform as Labour assembly members and Liberal


Democrat politicians. I have stored on a cross-party basis. It is


natural the UK media seem to dominate these issues. Looking at


the campaign and the issues in Wales, Europe means something


different in Wales, because you could argue we are beneficiaries,


whereas the UK are net contributors. You could say it is an indictment of


the state of the Welsh economy that we qualify for the EU money. This is


much bigger than any EU aid that comes to Wales, although it is


important, and it is the only way of reassuring that we will get that


support if there is an invoked when the referendum comes. The reason it


is bigger, it is about the economy. So much of our economy depends on


the single European market. Tata is one example, we are looking to find


a purchaser, new investment, not only at Port Talbot but across the


UK. It is fundamental to the economic interest and productivity


of Wales. 69% of the steel output from the UK goes to Europe. You try


finding an investor if you tell them that 69% of your customers will be


withdrawn at a certain date. It is far more likely that we will find an


investor. That is why it demonstrates why it is so important


that people think long and hard about this referendum and about how


they vote. It would devastate the Port Talbot community and the whole


Manufacturing base of the UK, as the Leave campaign have said. Your


opponents would disagree. Note... EU exports, they are down in the past


12 months, down 13%. Welsh exports to the EU. You can pick any one


year, they naturally fluctuate and move. Let's go back to what the


Leave campaign have said. Let's go to you on EU exports. We know how


important manufacturing exports are. But the Leave campaign's chief


economist has confessed and accepted that leaving the single European


market would devastate our manufacturing base. I think


manufacturing is too important to write it off so we can depend purely


on some service sector jobs, many of which will be focused in London and


the south-east. This is important to the economy in Wales, as is


manufacturing being important to the communities in Wales. We will hear


from the other side later. Lots of the concerns of people are about the


fact that perhaps the money that we would lose if we were to leave


Europe would then not come from the UK Government. You can guarantee you


would not set Welsh farmers adrift or companies who depend on EU


grants? You would fill that gap? Before any money can be distributed


from the Treasury, from taxpayers, you have to have a successful


economy that pays for it. That is why the single market is so


important. I have highlighted manufacturing, it is so important to


our farming base. That is why the farming bodies are supporting the in


campaign and recommending that farmers vote in, simply on the basis


that Welsh lamb and beef and produce get free access to the single


European market. One of the most famous farmers, the leader of your


party in Wales, once out. We know that the French farmers and the


French Government would rightly act in their interests, we have had


history of that with the beef on the bone ban. I am talking about the


leader of your party in Wales, he wants out, he is a farmer. We used


the European mechanisms to force the French to back down on a standpoint


they took to protect their farmers. If we were outside the EU, they


would raise the drawbridge to our produce. Have you told Andrew RT


Davies he has got it wrong? It is bigger than any individual or party.


It is cross-party. If you take 90% of economists, so many of the


business people in Wales, so much of civic society, but more importantly,


it is about the jobs and communities, such as Tata, the small


companies that make components, the supply chains to tempt him's to


Tata. The automotive sector... You are not answering the question, so I


would like to move on. If Wales were to vote to remain and the UK were to


vote to leave, what would you do? We recognise that it is the UK at the


member state, we are all important parts of the family of the UK, but


the reality is if the UK chose to leave, we know that Scotland is


already perpetuating an argument they would want to look at the issue


of independence again, so it could lead to constitutional pressures.


And in Wales? It would lead to more economic uncertainty, that is what


worries me. If we are to improve the lives of people, with prosperity,


with drops, it comes down to the economy. You have made that point.


Just on Wales, if Wales wants to stay in but the UK says, let's go,


what power would you have, if any, to make your case at the Cabinet


table? I will always make the case in Wales' interest, that it would


lead to constitutional pressures, obviously, as we know that Scotland


have said they would be looking at a second referendum. That would lead


to further uncertainty, business and investment does not like


uncertainty. The economic interests of Wales would be undermined even


further, and those jobs that have been created, we had a hat-trick of


good news just last month, employment is rising, and implement


is falling, all of that could be undermined in one fell swoop. If it


is outcome should David Cameron go? Absolutely not. He has committed to


the referendum, people said he would never do so, he has lived up to his


promise. But this is bigger than him. It is such an important


decision, it is fundamental to our prosperity, to the public services


that live off the taxes that are raised on the back of successful


businesses and people going out and earning money, that is what pays for


the health service, education provision. It is such an important


issue. Anything that will undermine the economy is damaging. Can I just


ask about the Wales Bill published yesterday? You talk about clarity


and accountability. But there is a more conciliatory tone between you


and the First Minister on this version. Except on policing. I want


to explore why not make Welsh police accountable to the Welsh Government.


Clarity and accountability have been the guiding principles through the


whole of the drafting of this bill. It is about a constitutional issue.


I want to free the Welsh Government to legislate to matter to real


people. They can introduce laws that will help create prosperity, deliver


better public services, there has been too much confusion of who is


responsible. I believe we have already devolved the Police and


Crime Commissioner, we had the elections for that, they should set


the priority within their area. Centralising policing in Cardiff or


Cardiff Bay for the whole of the UK, I don't think that is the right way


forward. It is better to have Police and Crime Commissioner is in the


force area is, where they can reflect the priorities in those


communities. The priorities for Dyfed-Powys Police the front from


the priorities for South Wales Police. Real devolution, where it is


closer to communities, is more effective in delivering on that sort


of policy area. We've heard the case for Britain


to remain in the EU, so now let's hear from the opposite


side of the debate, and from the leader


of the Welsh Conservatives in Wales, Why did you think it is so important


for Wales to leave? The question on the ballot paper is simple, do we


continue with our relationship and go further into a political union of


the superstate of Europe, or do we pull ourselves out and become a


trading nation, which UK and Wales have historically always been? We


can be stronger out of a political union that is the inevitable journey


that has been taken by the bureaucrats in Brussels. I asked


about Wales, because Wales is a net beneficiary from being in the EU.


The UK is not, it is a contributor, it gets less out of it and it puts


him. It is not the picture for Wales. Wales is part of the UK, I am


a proud unionist, I believe that Wales and are fitted from being in


the union of the UK. The UK has not benefited from being in this


political project that is an ever closer union on the continent. I


want to remain good neighbours with our friends and allies on the


continent, but I believe Wales and the UK could be stronger by spending


its own many within its own borders and holding the politicians to


account by a them to the various parliaments and assemblies of the


UK. But UID leader of the party in Wales


and -- dear not recognise UID leader of the party in Wales, and steal not


recognise that Wales benefits? That is why we have a stand-alone


referendum. Everyone's boat is as important of the next man and woman.


That is why the Conservative Party deserve a huge amount of credit for


putting forward a referendum on this important issue. We have seen by the


surge in voter registration, and enthusiasm for registration. People


want to take part in this referendum. You talk about trade and


business and as a Leave campaigner, small businesses... ?


In support of the euro. You have a huge businessman in Wales


supporting Remain. You have people wanting to stay. You are willing to


jeopardise all that in order to leave the EU? At is not the case. We


can unshackle many businesses the length and breadth of Wales and the


United Kingdom. 100% of businesses have to be shackled by the red tape


of Europe. If you have more than 50 trade


agreements beyond the EU with the rest of the world and would have to


renegotiate that and how long would that take?


There is also a trade deficit that the European Union or the countries


of the European Union, with many billions more pounds of goods into


the UK bank goes out. We have traded for hundreds of years across the


globe as a trading nation and I believe we would be more successful


unshackle ourselves from the red tape and bureaucracy of Brussels,


holding our own politicians to account. There is no such thing as


European money, spending our money. The length and breadth of Wales and


the United Kingdom, quality jobs and decent take-home pay.


You are a businessman and benefit from EU subsidies.


Yes, we have a small fraction of money coming back from Brussels.


If you're willing to fork forfeit that in order to get the money


direct from London... What would you say to a farmer who does not have a


second salary and is not a politician? He wants to keep that


money, and once Wales to stay in the EU.


I offer two examples of the things that have held him back on his


business. The first is the loss of health farm support payments taken


out why Carwyn Jones, as he told us, because of EU regulations. And


on-farm burial, a proposal brought forward across the continent of the


Europe to deal with a specific issue in Holland which added a huge cost


to farmers they like and breadth of the UK but in Wales importantly. It


is an obligation on every national Government to have food security...


You can guarantee that a UK Conservative Government would give


all that money that comes to Wales by the EU, it would still come to


Wales? You can guarantee that? I would suggest that if any


Government turned its back on food security it would be neglecting its


duty of securing the nation 's future.


Can you guarantee... ? No politician can guarantee anything


in the future because it is democracy that counts and who gets


voted in... But that is what makes people


nervous. But if you look at the way the


common agricultural policy is developing and expansion in Europe,


with six or seven countries coming in, the common agricultural policy


is a shrieking part of the overall budget. Every seven years,


renegotiation and that gets smaller. We would be fighting to make sure


that the larger part of that money would be coming to Wales, not


Whitehall but Wales, to be spent on the priorities of the Welsh


Government. If you win, should David Cameron


resign? He has a five year mandate. This is


one part of our manifesto, the referendum. The Prime Minister led


us to a majority Government only 14 months ago and it is important and


imperative that the Government get on with the excellent job they have


been doing, securing the public finances...


So you do not want Boris Johnson in number ten?


We know there will be a leadership challenge. The Prime Minister has


said he will not fight the 2020 general election... He has a


five-year mandate, the Prime Minister. The then minister along


with colleagues at the top of Government have work to stabilise


the finances and create a Government with creating quality jobs...


Back to Boris Johnson, do you want him in number ten Downing St? You


have just said he will be stepping down if they can before the next


general election, is Boris Johnson the man?


The first hurdle... Who do you back?


That is not only to say. The parliamentary colleagues will


nominate two individuals to go to the wider party membership. Party


colleagues in Westminster will have that... I am clear who I want to


leave but it is not for me to interject at this time. The Prime


Minister has a five-year mandate and it is important he serves that...


Very briefly... You acknowledge you are a divided party. Can you kiss


and make up after this? We are a successful party which won


a general election 14 months ago and has a growing economy that is the


envy of the world. We have national defence back on a level playing


field. We have improved education, and are responsible for that. We are


a party that has delivered. Thank you very much.


The first one annoying pound deal in the world was struck there and after


years of uncertainty, the iconic coal exchange in Cardiff Bay is at


eight crucial junction. forward to give the building


a new lease of life as a hotel, The proposal is now awaiting


planning permission and costings Campaigners warn that the building


is still in danger, and the work needs to happen as


quickly as possible. So how can we ensure that our most


important historic buildings in Wales are protected and restored


in a way that's both Before we discuss that,


here's filmmaker Nick Broomfield's reaction on visiting


Butetown in Cardiff for the first time since 1969


for his documentary "Going Going Gone: Nick Broomfield's


Disappearing Britain". The BBC documentary reveals his


anger at the state of the building. Look at that. That is really screwed


up. The coal exchange was my favourite building when I lived in


Cardiff, and when I recently read it was faced with demolition, I came


back to visit my old friend. Hello. Come on in. I am Lisa. Here is the


main hall, which we are not allowed into any more. The council has put a


restrictive order on it because they believe it is dangerous.


So we cannot go in? Unfortunately, no. You cannot argue


with council health and safety, they are the bosses.


Why do you think they want to close it?


That is a long story. Let's go up to the office. This is the building in


occupation, and that is the floor of the exchange full of traders.


What you are doing must take a lot of time and energy.


It has been interesting and I have done a lot of campaigning over the


years but never came across something where there is so much


sentiment locally, support and emotional attachment to the idea


that this place should rise again. I'm joined now by Professor


Annette Pritchard and Madeline Gray is from the University


of South Wales and Annette Pritchard is from the Welsh Centre for tourism


research. Professor Pritchard, we saw on that old board at the


beginning of the piece, seeking a future. It is so difficult to secure


that future. It is difficult to arrange funding.


These future icons are so important to the visitor economy of Wales, but


it wills itself, the places and people we are. One of the stories we


tell of each other, and what are the stories we tell to the world?


Without those stories and buildings, it would become a place without a


place. No history or heritage. We need to work to manage and bring


these buildings to life again. Has it got into this with the coal


exchange specifically? The problem is we need to see it in


a bigger picture. Bigger than this one iconic building. In Cardiff dock


area we have a number of beautiful buildings, a lot of which need care


and attention. We have to think about how we find a proper use for


them. It is not going to work if we just conserve the building as an


icon. It has got to have an end use. And proposals for a Hotel, for


example? Private money coming in, is that the way forward?


An excellent idea. There is no use trying to preserve it as a heritage


centre, which just does not work. I don't think there is any point just


trying to conserve one building standing on its own.


But how do you then preserve the integrity of the building? A hotel


could move in and make it more or less and minimalist, and is that the


future? You must respect the integrity of the building, don't


you? You do, and I think most developers


interested in bringing life back to an old building and developing it


would respect that. It is the unique selling point for the building to


talk about its history and role in the wider community and world. To be


able to say, within this hotel, the first million pound cheque was


signed. This building dictated coal prices around the world. Those are


important stories to tell, which developers would make use of enabled


way. Then it can... If you look at the marketability of


Saint pancreas hotel in London, it could be... It could be a St Pancras


of Cardiff. And this company have developed a


hotel in Liverpool and things like that. It is about bringing those


stories to life... Should it be moved brick by brick?


That is a huge tourist attraction. We do heritage extremely well in


some places. Is that the future of these buildings? But there is the


cost. I would think this could serve as


the catalyst for the regeneration of historic Butetown in general. There


are wonderful buildings and I think of this can be brought back to life


that is a template which could be used in other buildings. To tell the


stories of the people of Butetown and in Cardiff Bay we do not get


those stories just now. It is not just about Cardiff. We


have all hospitals and gorgeous buildings and their future is in


jeopardy. When you look at the budgets of heritage, it includes


media and so forth, 0.5% of the Welsh Government. It cannot only be


public money. It is our biggest growth industry,


heritage tourism. It needs more public funding, it ought to, but you


have got the problem of finding an end use body-building. Almost always


that involves the public cell sector. -- public sector.


Do we have too much emphasis on conservation?


Not too much emphasis on conservation. What you need is the


balance between conservation and an end use for the building. Otherwise


it will not work in 20 or 30 years, and we will have the problems again


down the line. To end on the coal exchange, it is


crisis time. You cannot go in the main hall because it is dangerous.


There is a fear it could completely fall down unless of thing is done


quickly. What needs to be done? This Hotel development is anyway its


best chance of survival. I think that kind of the element, harnessing


the private and public sector together is the only way forward.


And those who would argue against the hotel, saying it disturbs the


integrity of the iconic building? The danger is what happens to it at


that does not happen. They should, with a better idea.


Thank you, Professors. There won't be a programme next


Wednesday, but join Huw Edwards for a special debate


on the referendum If you'd like to get


in touch with us about that or anything else, email us


at [email protected], or follow us on social media -


the hashtag is #TheWalesReport. I've brought you all here


to lay out a vision - a team of radio presenters


without equal.


On The Wales Report this week - with just two weeks to go to the EU Referendum we hear from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party from opposite sides of the debate. And should more be done to protect Wales's historic buildings for future generations? Presented by Bethan Rhys Roberts.

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