08/06/2016 The Wales Report


08/06/2016

With just two weeks to go to the EU Referendum Bethan Rhys Roberts hears from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party from opposite sides of the debate.


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Transcript


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With just under two weeks to go until we go to the polls to decide

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the future of Britain's membership of the European Union,

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we hear from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party.

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And protecting the past for future generations,

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should more be done to safeguard historic buildings in Wales?

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Good evening, and welcome to The Wales Report.

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Remember, you can join in the debate on social media.

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Much of the focus of the referendum battle so far has been blue on blue,

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with Conservatives who want to remain taking on those

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Before we hear from two prominent members of the party in Wales

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with very different views, political commentator

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Professor Laura McAllister gives her verdict on the campaign so far.

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If we listen to the opinion polls, it looks as if voting patterns in

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Wales are similar to those in England. I don't think there has

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been a Welsh campaign. The whole campaign and the two voices for

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Remain and Leave have been dominated by a small group of men in the

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Conservative Party or on the fringes. We have not seen as much of

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Nigel Farage as we might have expected, it has been about Boris

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Johnson, Michael Gove, David Cameron and George Osborne. It has been very

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limited and elitist. We have come out of this with the public

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dissatisfied about the referendum as a device. It has to be divisive get

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people to from being not sure into yes or no. What is interesting,

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hardly anybody, with a cute exceptions, are rigidly guest or no,

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most of the population could see the arguments on both sides. If you talk

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to people on the ground, they may be 70% Remain and 30% Leave, or the

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other way around, but we have not had good quality, trustworthy

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information that has persuaded people in the group in the middle,

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sometimes as big as a quarter of the population, to feel clear they are

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making the choice will be right reasons.

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I'm joined now by the Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns.

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Picking up on the point there, she is right that there has not been a

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Welsh campaign. This has been about the UK Conservative Party in the

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main. It is much bigger than any one political party. It is bigger than

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any one general election, it will set the scene for the next 20, 30,

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40 years. That is why it is so important, when it comes. I have

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stood on the same platform as Labour assembly members and Liberal

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Democrat politicians. I have stored on a cross-party basis. It is

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natural the UK media seem to dominate these issues. Looking at

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the campaign and the issues in Wales, Europe means something

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different in Wales, because you could argue we are beneficiaries,

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whereas the UK are net contributors. You could say it is an indictment of

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the state of the Welsh economy that we qualify for the EU money. This is

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much bigger than any EU aid that comes to Wales, although it is

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important, and it is the only way of reassuring that we will get that

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support if there is an invoked when the referendum comes. The reason it

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is bigger, it is about the economy. So much of our economy depends on

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the single European market. Tata is one example, we are looking to find

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a purchaser, new investment, not only at Port Talbot but across the

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UK. It is fundamental to the economic interest and productivity

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of Wales. 69% of the steel output from the UK goes to Europe. You try

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finding an investor if you tell them that 69% of your customers will be

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withdrawn at a certain date. It is far more likely that we will find an

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investor. That is why it demonstrates why it is so important

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that people think long and hard about this referendum and about how

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they vote. It would devastate the Port Talbot community and the whole

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Manufacturing base of the UK, as the Leave campaign have said. Your

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opponents would disagree. Note... EU exports, they are down in the past

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12 months, down 13%. Welsh exports to the EU. You can pick any one

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year, they naturally fluctuate and move. Let's go back to what the

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Leave campaign have said. Let's go to you on EU exports. We know how

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important manufacturing exports are. But the Leave campaign's chief

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economist has confessed and accepted that leaving the single European

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market would devastate our manufacturing base. I think

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manufacturing is too important to write it off so we can depend purely

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on some service sector jobs, many of which will be focused in London and

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the south-east. This is important to the economy in Wales, as is

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manufacturing being important to the communities in Wales. We will hear

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from the other side later. Lots of the concerns of people are about the

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fact that perhaps the money that we would lose if we were to leave

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Europe would then not come from the UK Government. You can guarantee you

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would not set Welsh farmers adrift or companies who depend on EU

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grants? You would fill that gap? Before any money can be distributed

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from the Treasury, from taxpayers, you have to have a successful

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economy that pays for it. That is why the single market is so

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important. I have highlighted manufacturing, it is so important to

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our farming base. That is why the farming bodies are supporting the in

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campaign and recommending that farmers vote in, simply on the basis

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that Welsh lamb and beef and produce get free access to the single

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European market. One of the most famous farmers, the leader of your

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party in Wales, once out. We know that the French farmers and the

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French Government would rightly act in their interests, we have had

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history of that with the beef on the bone ban. I am talking about the

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leader of your party in Wales, he wants out, he is a farmer. We used

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the European mechanisms to force the French to back down on a standpoint

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they took to protect their farmers. If we were outside the EU, they

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would raise the drawbridge to our produce. Have you told Andrew RT

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Davies he has got it wrong? It is bigger than any individual or party.

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It is cross-party. If you take 90% of economists, so many of the

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business people in Wales, so much of civic society, but more importantly,

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it is about the jobs and communities, such as Tata, the small

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companies that make components, the supply chains to tempt him's to

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Tata. The automotive sector... You are not answering the question, so I

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would like to move on. If Wales were to vote to remain and the UK were to

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vote to leave, what would you do? We recognise that it is the UK at the

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member state, we are all important parts of the family of the UK, but

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the reality is if the UK chose to leave, we know that Scotland is

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already perpetuating an argument they would want to look at the issue

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of independence again, so it could lead to constitutional pressures.

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And in Wales? It would lead to more economic uncertainty, that is what

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worries me. If we are to improve the lives of people, with prosperity,

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with drops, it comes down to the economy. You have made that point.

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Just on Wales, if Wales wants to stay in but the UK says, let's go,

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what power would you have, if any, to make your case at the Cabinet

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table? I will always make the case in Wales' interest, that it would

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lead to constitutional pressures, obviously, as we know that Scotland

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have said they would be looking at a second referendum. That would lead

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to further uncertainty, business and investment does not like

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uncertainty. The economic interests of Wales would be undermined even

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further, and those jobs that have been created, we had a hat-trick of

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good news just last month, employment is rising, and implement

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is falling, all of that could be undermined in one fell swoop. If it

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is outcome should David Cameron go? Absolutely not. He has committed to

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the referendum, people said he would never do so, he has lived up to his

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promise. But this is bigger than him. It is such an important

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decision, it is fundamental to our prosperity, to the public services

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that live off the taxes that are raised on the back of successful

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businesses and people going out and earning money, that is what pays for

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the health service, education provision. It is such an important

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issue. Anything that will undermine the economy is damaging. Can I just

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ask about the Wales Bill published yesterday? You talk about clarity

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and accountability. But there is a more conciliatory tone between you

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and the First Minister on this version. Except on policing. I want

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to explore why not make Welsh police accountable to the Welsh Government.

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Clarity and accountability have been the guiding principles through the

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whole of the drafting of this bill. It is about a constitutional issue.

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I want to free the Welsh Government to legislate to matter to real

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people. They can introduce laws that will help create prosperity, deliver

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better public services, there has been too much confusion of who is

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responsible. I believe we have already devolved the Police and

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Crime Commissioner, we had the elections for that, they should set

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the priority within their area. Centralising policing in Cardiff or

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Cardiff Bay for the whole of the UK, I don't think that is the right way

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forward. It is better to have Police and Crime Commissioner is in the

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force area is, where they can reflect the priorities in those

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communities. The priorities for Dyfed-Powys Police the front from

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the priorities for South Wales Police. Real devolution, where it is

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closer to communities, is more effective in delivering on that sort

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of policy area. We've heard the case for Britain

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to remain in the EU, so now let's hear from the opposite

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side of the debate, and from the leader

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of the Welsh Conservatives in Wales, Why did you think it is so important

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for Wales to leave? The question on the ballot paper is simple, do we

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continue with our relationship and go further into a political union of

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the superstate of Europe, or do we pull ourselves out and become a

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trading nation, which UK and Wales have historically always been? We

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can be stronger out of a political union that is the inevitable journey

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that has been taken by the bureaucrats in Brussels. I asked

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about Wales, because Wales is a net beneficiary from being in the EU.

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The UK is not, it is a contributor, it gets less out of it and it puts

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him. It is not the picture for Wales. Wales is part of the UK, I am

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a proud unionist, I believe that Wales and are fitted from being in

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the union of the UK. The UK has not benefited from being in this

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political project that is an ever closer union on the continent. I

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want to remain good neighbours with our friends and allies on the

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continent, but I believe Wales and the UK could be stronger by spending

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its own many within its own borders and holding the politicians to

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account by a them to the various parliaments and assemblies of the

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UK. But UID leader of the party in Wales

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and -- dear not recognise UID leader of the party in Wales, and steal not

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recognise that Wales benefits? That is why we have a stand-alone

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referendum. Everyone's boat is as important of the next man and woman.

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That is why the Conservative Party deserve a huge amount of credit for

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putting forward a referendum on this important issue. We have seen by the

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surge in voter registration, and enthusiasm for registration. People

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want to take part in this referendum. You talk about trade and

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business and as a Leave campaigner, small businesses... ?

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In support of the euro. You have a huge businessman in Wales

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supporting Remain. You have people wanting to stay. You are willing to

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jeopardise all that in order to leave the EU? At is not the case. We

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can unshackle many businesses the length and breadth of Wales and the

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United Kingdom. 100% of businesses have to be shackled by the red tape

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of Europe. If you have more than 50 trade

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agreements beyond the EU with the rest of the world and would have to

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renegotiate that and how long would that take?

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There is also a trade deficit that the European Union or the countries

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of the European Union, with many billions more pounds of goods into

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the UK bank goes out. We have traded for hundreds of years across the

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globe as a trading nation and I believe we would be more successful

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unshackle ourselves from the red tape and bureaucracy of Brussels,

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holding our own politicians to account. There is no such thing as

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European money, spending our money. The length and breadth of Wales and

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the United Kingdom, quality jobs and decent take-home pay.

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You are a businessman and benefit from EU subsidies.

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Yes, we have a small fraction of money coming back from Brussels.

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If you're willing to fork forfeit that in order to get the money

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direct from London... What would you say to a farmer who does not have a

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second salary and is not a politician? He wants to keep that

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money, and once Wales to stay in the EU.

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I offer two examples of the things that have held him back on his

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business. The first is the loss of health farm support payments taken

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out why Carwyn Jones, as he told us, because of EU regulations. And

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on-farm burial, a proposal brought forward across the continent of the

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Europe to deal with a specific issue in Holland which added a huge cost

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to farmers they like and breadth of the UK but in Wales importantly. It

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is an obligation on every national Government to have food security...

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You can guarantee that a UK Conservative Government would give

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all that money that comes to Wales by the EU, it would still come to

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Wales? You can guarantee that? I would suggest that if any

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Government turned its back on food security it would be neglecting its

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duty of securing the nation 's future.

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Can you guarantee... ? No politician can guarantee anything

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in the future because it is democracy that counts and who gets

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voted in... But that is what makes people

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nervous. But if you look at the way the

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common agricultural policy is developing and expansion in Europe,

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with six or seven countries coming in, the common agricultural policy

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is a shrieking part of the overall budget. Every seven years,

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renegotiation and that gets smaller. We would be fighting to make sure

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that the larger part of that money would be coming to Wales, not

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Whitehall but Wales, to be spent on the priorities of the Welsh

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Government. If you win, should David Cameron

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resign? He has a five year mandate. This is

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one part of our manifesto, the referendum. The Prime Minister led

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us to a majority Government only 14 months ago and it is important and

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imperative that the Government get on with the excellent job they have

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been doing, securing the public finances...

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So you do not want Boris Johnson in number ten?

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We know there will be a leadership challenge. The Prime Minister has

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said he will not fight the 2020 general election... He has a

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five-year mandate, the Prime Minister. The then minister along

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with colleagues at the top of Government have work to stabilise

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the finances and create a Government with creating quality jobs...

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Back to Boris Johnson, do you want him in number ten Downing St? You

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have just said he will be stepping down if they can before the next

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general election, is Boris Johnson the man?

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The first hurdle... Who do you back?

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That is not only to say. The parliamentary colleagues will

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nominate two individuals to go to the wider party membership. Party

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colleagues in Westminster will have that... I am clear who I want to

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leave but it is not for me to interject at this time. The Prime

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Minister has a five-year mandate and it is important he serves that...

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Very briefly... You acknowledge you are a divided party. Can you kiss

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and make up after this? We are a successful party which won

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a general election 14 months ago and has a growing economy that is the

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envy of the world. We have national defence back on a level playing

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field. We have improved education, and are responsible for that. We are

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a party that has delivered. Thank you very much.

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The first one annoying pound deal in the world was struck there and after

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years of uncertainty, the iconic coal exchange in Cardiff Bay is at

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eight crucial junction. forward to give the building

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a new lease of life as a hotel, The proposal is now awaiting

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planning permission and costings Campaigners warn that the building

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is still in danger, and the work needs to happen as

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quickly as possible. So how can we ensure that our most

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important historic buildings in Wales are protected and restored

:20:26.:20:28.

in a way that's both Before we discuss that,

:20:29.:20:31.

here's filmmaker Nick Broomfield's reaction on visiting

:20:32.:20:34.

Butetown in Cardiff for the first time since 1969

:20:35.:20:35.

for his documentary "Going Going Gone: Nick Broomfield's

:20:36.:20:40.

Disappearing Britain". The BBC documentary reveals his

:20:41.:20:48.

anger at the state of the building. Look at that. That is really screwed

:20:49.:21:05.

up. The coal exchange was my favourite building when I lived in

:21:06.:21:09.

Cardiff, and when I recently read it was faced with demolition, I came

:21:10.:21:16.

back to visit my old friend. Hello. Come on in. I am Lisa. Here is the

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main hall, which we are not allowed into any more. The council has put a

:21:25.:21:28.

restrictive order on it because they believe it is dangerous.

:21:29.:21:33.

So we cannot go in? Unfortunately, no. You cannot argue

:21:34.:21:36.

with council health and safety, they are the bosses.

:21:37.:21:41.

Why do you think they want to close it?

:21:42.:21:44.

That is a long story. Let's go up to the office. This is the building in

:21:45.:21:50.

occupation, and that is the floor of the exchange full of traders.

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What you are doing must take a lot of time and energy.

:22:02.:22:04.

It has been interesting and I have done a lot of campaigning over the

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years but never came across something where there is so much

:22:08.:22:12.

sentiment locally, support and emotional attachment to the idea

:22:13.:22:13.

that this place should rise again. I'm joined now by Professor

:22:14.:22:22.

Annette Pritchard and Madeline Gray is from the University

:22:23.:22:33.

of South Wales and Annette Pritchard is from the Welsh Centre for tourism

:22:34.:22:37.

research. Professor Pritchard, we saw on that old board at the

:22:38.:22:41.

beginning of the piece, seeking a future. It is so difficult to secure

:22:42.:22:47.

that future. It is difficult to arrange funding.

:22:48.:22:52.

These future icons are so important to the visitor economy of Wales, but

:22:53.:22:56.

it wills itself, the places and people we are. One of the stories we

:22:57.:23:01.

tell of each other, and what are the stories we tell to the world?

:23:02.:23:04.

Without those stories and buildings, it would become a place without a

:23:05.:23:14.

place. No history or heritage. We need to work to manage and bring

:23:15.:23:18.

these buildings to life again. Has it got into this with the coal

:23:19.:23:23.

exchange specifically? The problem is we need to see it in

:23:24.:23:27.

a bigger picture. Bigger than this one iconic building. In Cardiff dock

:23:28.:23:33.

area we have a number of beautiful buildings, a lot of which need care

:23:34.:23:37.

and attention. We have to think about how we find a proper use for

:23:38.:23:42.

them. It is not going to work if we just conserve the building as an

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icon. It has got to have an end use. And proposals for a Hotel, for

:23:48.:23:53.

example? Private money coming in, is that the way forward?

:23:54.:23:58.

An excellent idea. There is no use trying to preserve it as a heritage

:23:59.:24:02.

centre, which just does not work. I don't think there is any point just

:24:03.:24:05.

trying to conserve one building standing on its own.

:24:06.:24:10.

But how do you then preserve the integrity of the building? A hotel

:24:11.:24:15.

could move in and make it more or less and minimalist, and is that the

:24:16.:24:19.

future? You must respect the integrity of the building, don't

:24:20.:24:22.

you? You do, and I think most developers

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interested in bringing life back to an old building and developing it

:24:26.:24:31.

would respect that. It is the unique selling point for the building to

:24:32.:24:33.

talk about its history and role in the wider community and world. To be

:24:34.:24:39.

able to say, within this hotel, the first million pound cheque was

:24:40.:24:44.

signed. This building dictated coal prices around the world. Those are

:24:45.:24:48.

important stories to tell, which developers would make use of enabled

:24:49.:24:54.

way. Then it can... If you look at the marketability of

:24:55.:24:59.

Saint pancreas hotel in London, it could be... It could be a St Pancras

:25:00.:25:05.

of Cardiff. And this company have developed a

:25:06.:25:08.

hotel in Liverpool and things like that. It is about bringing those

:25:09.:25:13.

stories to life... Should it be moved brick by brick?

:25:14.:25:18.

That is a huge tourist attraction. We do heritage extremely well in

:25:19.:25:22.

some places. Is that the future of these buildings? But there is the

:25:23.:25:26.

cost. I would think this could serve as

:25:27.:25:32.

the catalyst for the regeneration of historic Butetown in general. There

:25:33.:25:34.

are wonderful buildings and I think of this can be brought back to life

:25:35.:25:38.

that is a template which could be used in other buildings. To tell the

:25:39.:25:42.

stories of the people of Butetown and in Cardiff Bay we do not get

:25:43.:25:46.

those stories just now. It is not just about Cardiff. We

:25:47.:25:51.

have all hospitals and gorgeous buildings and their future is in

:25:52.:25:56.

jeopardy. When you look at the budgets of heritage, it includes

:25:57.:26:01.

media and so forth, 0.5% of the Welsh Government. It cannot only be

:26:02.:26:05.

public money. It is our biggest growth industry,

:26:06.:26:13.

heritage tourism. It needs more public funding, it ought to, but you

:26:14.:26:16.

have got the problem of finding an end use body-building. Almost always

:26:17.:26:24.

that involves the public cell sector. -- public sector.

:26:25.:26:29.

Do we have too much emphasis on conservation?

:26:30.:26:34.

Not too much emphasis on conservation. What you need is the

:26:35.:26:38.

balance between conservation and an end use for the building. Otherwise

:26:39.:26:44.

it will not work in 20 or 30 years, and we will have the problems again

:26:45.:26:47.

down the line. To end on the coal exchange, it is

:26:48.:26:52.

crisis time. You cannot go in the main hall because it is dangerous.

:26:53.:26:55.

There is a fear it could completely fall down unless of thing is done

:26:56.:27:02.

quickly. What needs to be done? This Hotel development is anyway its

:27:03.:27:07.

best chance of survival. I think that kind of the element, harnessing

:27:08.:27:11.

the private and public sector together is the only way forward.

:27:12.:27:17.

And those who would argue against the hotel, saying it disturbs the

:27:18.:27:22.

integrity of the iconic building? The danger is what happens to it at

:27:23.:27:25.

that does not happen. They should, with a better idea.

:27:26.:27:29.

Thank you, Professors. There won't be a programme next

:27:30.:27:31.

Wednesday, but join Huw Edwards for a special debate

:27:32.:27:36.

on the referendum If you'd like to get

:27:37.:27:37.

in touch with us about that or anything else, email us

:27:38.:27:48.

at [email protected], or follow us on social media -

:27:49.:27:50.

the hashtag is #TheWalesReport. I've brought you all here

:27:51.:27:55.

to lay out a vision - a team of radio presenters

:27:56.:28:31.

without equal.

:28:32.:28:35.

On The Wales Report this week - with just two weeks to go to the EU Referendum we hear from two senior members of the Welsh Conservative Party from opposite sides of the debate. And should more be done to protect Wales's historic buildings for future generations? Presented by Bethan Rhys Roberts.


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