29/06/2016 The Wales Report

We have the Secretary of State for Wales, the leader of Plaid Cymru and

either a couple of experts in order to answer questions on what next for

Wales. Good evening and welcome

to a special Wales Report. Tonight, we'll be looking

at the impact of last week's referendum and the UK's decision

to leave the EU on us here in Wales. The fallout from the result

shows no sign of waning, with the impact of the Brexit vote

being keenly felt by the main political parties, both

in Westminster and in the Senedd. Like England, Wales voted to leave

the EU, but most Welsh politicians had called on people to back

the Remain campaign, leaving them with some pretty big

questions to answer. Remember, you can join

in the discussion - Colin Jones, can you update is on

where you are with negotiations on where we are with the European

Union. We are setting up our own team in Brussels and the job of that

team will be to start negotiations. We are in a different position to

Scotland. Our people voted to leave the European Union. There is no

getting away from that. But they voted to leave the European Union,

not get done over by them. What are your team doing? We are putting

experience into the team there and taking advice from the people

involved in the Democratic vote. We are on a different perspective to

Scotland and from my perspective I want to make sure we get the best

deal for Wales. The money coming should not be stuck in London. In

terms of those carrying out the discussions, we know that the Leeds

side wanted some of their representatives to be part of that

sensation team. Is that something you'd consider or allowed to happen?

They don't know what they want both. I listened carefully to the leader

of the Welsh Conservatives yesterday, asking him for 3

advantages of leaving the EU, and he couldn't even give me 1. This is a

Welsh government negotiation. Of course we will report back to the

other parties but we need to get on with this. You say you have got

teams out there doing work. How much planning happened before the vote on

Thursday. It's very difficult to carry out detailed planning because

we don't know what happens next. I've listened to Leave campaigners

and it's a bit like somebody who's throwing a brick through a window

and said how do we put the window back together again. Didn't you have

anybody in Cardiff Bay saying, that we might vote out, what will we do

afterwards? It would have been a different scenario if we had baited

to remain rather than leave. -- voted. We would be speaking to

Gibraltar, Scotland and Northern Ireland about how to protect

ourselves. We voted to leave so we will be discussing how to get the

best deal with after leaving. I got hands tied because of that? Only

because that is what people wanted. There's no getting away from that. I

do not want to see the money that Wales receives at the moment

disappear into a money box in London. We need to get the best deal

possible for our people. You say that you want to be part of the

single market. You know that free movement of labour will be an

intrinsic part of that. If you allow that to happen, isn't that going

against the wishes of the people in Wales who have said they don't want

that? At the moment the only models on the table involve free movement

of people for market access. Some people have said that will change.

Well, let's see. From my perspective, I went be saying that

we want is the pre-movement of people but what we do wonders access

to the single market. After that vividly vital for Welsh business.

How do you square that circle? Let's see how flexible the European Union

are prepared to be. Flexibility isn't normally a word you'd

associate with the European Union. If an oil tank. The question for me

is, the union needs to survive. It needs to be far more flexible to

survive. That means being farm flexible in terms of changing the

ways that have been traditional for 40 years but have to change. You've

clearly set up on these negotiations now. Are you concerned that barely

made infrastructure projects, such as the Metro project, might be

kicked into the long grass now or cancelled altogether? I wrote to the

Prime Minister asking him to keep to the promise that every single penny

wheelies will be made up by the government. It wasn't his promise

there, was it? I expect that promise to be kept by whoever is bigger than

ever to Prime Minister. If that promise is not kept we went be able

to fund projects that had an element of European funding, which would

mean that Wales loses out. What would be the effect if that money

that was coming in doesn't come in any more? If we don't get the money

from London, the Metro is in difficulty. There are road schemes

and apprenticeship schemes that would be in difficulty as well. The

leave campaigners made a pledge that everything up any of that scheme

would come to Wales for us to decide how the money would be spent. If

that money doesn't come, we have a number of problems. We saw in

Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon called an emergency cabinet, was calling

leaders. Do you regret that it was Monday before you had another

cabinet. Why not hold it 2448 hrs earlier? Two things, I'm not sure

why the -- whether the Scots have got anywhere. And it was a different

object array. Scotland voted to remain, Wales didn't. Scotland has

decided it wants to stay in the EU. The Scottish Government has decided

that means independence. That is not the view of the people of Wales.

From our perspective, this is a long-term game. This will not be

resolved in the next week or two but it is something which needs to be

resolved in the best interests of the people of Wales in regard to

what they baited next week. Considering how Scotland and Wales

-- Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, what went wrong in

Wales? If it was in my control, I would not have chosen this time to

have a vote. The English papers and the Eurosceptics have much more

penetration in Wales than they do in Northern Ireland and Scotland. That

affected people. People were raising immigration with me and where

immigration was low, people thought it was a much more important issue.

A strange paradox but that is what happened. People would say to me

when I pointed out European projects that it is our money anyway. It

wasn't but now they expect it to be delivered by the Leave Campaign.

Isn't it a fairly damning indictment of the Labour government since

devolution that we had billions of pounds coming in, 15 years of that,

that they turn round and say, we are not interested in that at all, we

will turn our backs on the institution that was giving us the

money. That's because of the way you have handled that, isn't it? No,

people were saying to me that this is our money. From Wales's

perspective this was money coming in from the European Union and it is

money that needs to keep coming in. Why went to bed saying, if Carl

Wynne Jones says so, that must be it? Six weeks after the election

campaign, it is impossible to have an effective referendum campaign.

Most Labour voters voted to remain and most conservative voters voted

to leave and that tells you something. It was a difficult

campaign to fight. We have had people saying there needs to be a

time of soul-searching, of listening because we don't connect with our

working class communities, what's the point of labour gesture market

doesn't seem to me that you are buying into that. That is correct.

-- she is correct. We had an election six weeks ago and they gave

us the largest share of the vote. There was a massive drop in your

share. We worked hard to make sure that we maximised our vote and I was

told it would be worse. There are some communities that will

disconnected from politics, from all politics, and some people were

saying to me it is a protest vote. They are angry and this is how they

are letting it out. Lots of people were saying to me, we are still

labour, I am going to vote Labour but I'm going to give the Tories a

kicking. When you tried to explain this was not how to do it, they

didn't want to hear that. What is clear is that those who made the

promises to Wales have do keep them and we make sure the money still

comes to Wales. That glosses over the disconnect between you and your

heartland, the working-class areas, which I've always supported Labour

and now certainly from your point of view, from Jeremy Corbyn's point of

view, and listening, aren't interested. Many of our voters

disagreed with us on the referendum question for a number of issues.

There are questions for us as a party to make sure we can connect

with many of our voters again and we can -- we have had this conversation

within the party. That means we have got local government elections next

year, hugely important that our counsellors are active in our

communities as many of them are in order to build up from grass weeds.

You say you need to listen, something needs to change. What is

going to change? We've heard this before and yet here you are being

given a kicking in your heartland. Part of the answer lies in job

security. I came across people and it was clear to me that the U was

the target for them because they felt insecure. They doubt that there

are jobs were not valued, why not well paid, there was no union

representation and they were without job security. They remembered their

parents having all those things. How do you deal with all of that? We

have to move back to the days when the society had proper employment

rights and people felt desperately insecure and will express that

unless they get the kind of security in their lives that they once

enjoyed. Globalisation is a good thing in some ways but for many

people it's led to secure well-paid jobs becoming insecure, temporary

contracts, sometimes zero hours, with Labour pensions at the end of

it. That needs to be dealt with properly so that people have

implement rights at a UK level. At a UK level, I mentioned there was a

failure on your part and Jeremy Corbyn could have the same said

about him. What do you make of the contest? This was never going to be

resolved in any other way. The party is deeply divided. We have no hope

of winning an election if we carry on like this. There needs to be a

resolution and then of course that means a leadership election. Do you

think there will be an election later this year? It would need

support from Labour MPs for that to occur and that would be difficult. I

want to be in a position in October when we are far stronger and in a

position to win in an election but we're not at the moment. Would

Jeremy Corbyn be your first choice of leader to go into that election?

I never support any particular candidate for a leadership bid. I

never call on other leaders of my own party to consider their

position, that is not my role. What I do say and what is obvious to

everybody is that we can't carry on with things as they are. The only

way to resolve this is through another leadership contest. If you

have a situation down here in the Assembly where the overwhelming

majority of Assembly members here were calling for you to stand down

and no confidence, as Jeremy Corbyn housing, would you carry on as he

has done? It is difficult to see how that would be possible if it

happened here in Cardiff. The only way to resolve this is through

another leadership contest. Is the outcome of that leadership contest

going to be that Jeremy Corbyn will win again because he has the

overwhelming support of members? He did last year but we don't know what

the outcome will be this time around but what we do know is that we can't

carry on as we are. We can't be in a situation where we have the vast

majority of MPs was no confidence in their own leader and the only way to

resolve it is through another leadership contest. Is there a

problem if Jeremy Corbyn has to stand again and wins, what does that

say to you going into the general election we might see later this

year when the party will be massively divided in terms of MPs

having to fall behind a leader they don't really want? We can't win an

election if we are seen as divided. It is obvious, we saw that in 1983.

You say you were call for him to leave but it seems to me that

everything you are saying is that he should probably leave. No, I am

saying there should be another leadership contest and that is the

only way that this can be resolved. How hopeful are you with any chance

of winning an election with Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of Labour? We

have no chance as things stand given the current state of the party

Westminster and this needs to be revolved -- resolved. That was the

First Minister. The new leader will have a fully

tray waiting when they take up office in September but the first

task is the not so small matter of negotiating the British withdrawal

from the European Union. Key to making the Welsh voice heard in

those negotiations as the Secretary of State, the Conservative MP, Alun

Cairns, I caught up with him earlier.

We are few days on an hour from the referendum campaign. Why did Wales

and the UK vote to leave the European Union? What is really

important is that we have to respond to the referendum outcome. People

voted and they have made their decision so it is up to the

government now to respond positively on that basis so as a result I have

been holding a series of meetings with business leaders and with

higher education and further education colleges and local

authorities and I have plans of meeting a range of charities as well

that benefit from the European single market or European aid.

Coming on to that in a moment. I just want to get your views on what

happens, especially in those parts of Wales that we have been

discussing that received most money from the European Union grants and

the ones that strongly voted to leave the European Union. What went

on there, do you think? It is difficult to tell but it is almost

irrelevant at this stage because we need to demonstrate that we are

responding to the demand to leave the European Union but we also need

to understand why and Willie to look at the European aid programmes in

those areas that would have voted most in favour of remaining in the

European Union and a small part of that might be how the lack of

traction of those schemes would have had. Some of the projects that were

being pursued might not have resonated in the way that the

designers of those projects would have thought. That might have been

part of it but the wider issue of benefit claimants across people in

Europe and immigration problems and how they saw that that was not being

managed. Is that saying that grant money was wasted money? We need to

look at that. I am not saying it is the single answer but it is a

complex situation about relationships between communities

that certain parts of the country voted leave and other parts of the

country voted remain and we need to analyse that end it is far too

simplistic to come up with one answer. Looking at your colleagues

as Conservative MPs and awful lot of promises were made about that money

coming to Wales and Wales would not be a penny worse off in the event of

a leave vote. How important is it for you now that you personally hold

those colleagues of yours to account and make sure they keep their

promises? The referendum decision has been taken and the Prime

Minister set up a specialist unit in Whitehall that will analyse all of

the implications so that by the time the new Prime Minister is in place

in a couple of months' time, that he or she would be in the best possible

place to respond. I have been meeting with businesses, with

universities and further education colleges and local authorities to

find out what are their priorities so as the Secretary of State I will

be feeding into that unit but also responding to the recommendations of

that unit in the Cabinet table. You are the voice of Wales in that

cabinet table and promises were made that money would still be coming to

Wales. Surely it is your job to say that you need to keep that promise?

Of course there are lots of uncertainties but I will absolutely

be banging the jump for Wales as I know the First Minister will be and

I will be working and in glove in getting a fair settlement for Wales

but there are lots of uncertainties and we don't know the impact on the

economy but I have been hugely encouraged today by the response

from businesses and the best quote I heard was that entrepreneurs thrive

on change and that was the response from businesses who are exporting

already and importing now and it demonstrates the dynamism that

exists. We are in a much stronger position. The deficit is at a much

lower level than it was and the economy is in a robust position and

we have the fastest growth of any of the world's leading nations so when

you put it all in contacts we are in a good position to respond.

When you businesses say they thrive on change and so on, that is in

marked contrast to what we had in the referendum campaign and might

feed into the idea that it was a project fear on behalf of the remain

campaigners. Businesses are telling me that they see the opportunities

now that they have here and they are realists and they are pragmatic and

they have to react on the decision of the referendum, there is no point

wallowing in it and saying it is doom and gloom because we can't get

access anymore but they now see that markets elsewhere, they now see that

they are rightly making demands that they will have as much of open

access to the open market as possible. I have said to them that I

will be making the UK Tite resource available to them so that the

response from the UK Government, that they are fully part of that to

trade and import and export to places not only in Europe but well

beyond. I guess for businesses, they always say uncertainty is the enemy

of businesses so wouldn't it it therefore have been better if the

whole process and negotiation began immediately and in that regard may

be David Cameron's idea to stand down and nothing starting now until

September and all that uncertainty will continue for two months. I was

so recovered -- encouraged by the response from business and

universities and the local authorities. None of them want

article 50 invoked immediately, they would prefer a period of calm so

that we can analyse what the implications are and then the Prime

Minister is in the strongest position to respond when he or she

becomes Prime Minister. I would expect, and let's be frank, for the

next two years absolutely, and I would suggest beyond that, for the

next two years we are full and active members of the European Union

so we get full access to the markets and full draw down on the benefits

that come out of Europe and then we should not be ashamed of that but at

the same time we will be negotiating how we leave and what lies beyond.

You're going to have two sides of the Conservative Party who have been

throwing insults at each other and now they somehow have to come

together and unite under one leader. I have spoken to most of the

leadership contenders and I will speak to them all before the day is

out. They are all calling for calm, they are all recognising the work

that needs to be done before the formal negotiations start. There is

an awful lot of work to be done that is why I have been talking to

businesses and local authorities and colleges and universities and so on

to understand their priority because I will be taking the priority to the

European Union unit and I will also be responding around the Cabinet

table to the recommendations that come out of that unit said the

opportunities that have been highlighted and the concerns that

been written expressed will be responded to absolutely run the

Cabinet table. Who should be at the head of that table and the next

Prime Minister, in your view? I have said I am supporting Stephen Crabb.

I worked very closely with him when he was Secretary of State for Wales

Andy had an enormous positive impact on people will remember the tanking

of the electrification of the valleys line, for example. I also

remember the problems of the Wales Bill under his leadership. Should it

be someone who was campaigning to leave the European Union, given that

it will be the most important issue facing the next Prime Minister? The

next Prime Minister will be one who unifies the party, quite obviously

it will be on that basis. All of the potential leaders have talked about

bringing the party together, about responding to the situation that we

are in. The country has taken the decision and Wales has taken the

decision and sometimes of the most deprived communities to leave the

European Union so it is up to us as politicians to provide leadership

and respond to their demands and that is what I am absolutely

determined to do and that is what I am talking to businesses and

colleges and universities and to the communities themselves about what

they need out of this new situation. We'll Stephen Crabb really be able

to tell people and convince them that he in what he is doing when

actually he was voting for the complete opposite to happen? Time is

past. The referendum was last we are responding to that referendum. We

have set up the unit and the negotiations have started with the

Prime Minister at the European Commission. He has already been

building relationships individually with those leaders. I am already

feeding in the responses from businesses and universities and so

on to that unit and I have already championed the case of wells around

the Cabinet table because we absolutely need to ensure that the

union is not fragmented and Wales gets its fair share and I will

absolutely deliver on that. Have you spoken to Carwyn Jones or anyone

from the Welsh government in terms of how you move with them to move

on? I have. I spoke to them immediately after the referendum and

we work closely anyway and I met him at an event on Saturday where we

were jointly standing at Armed Forces Day. We obviously had

informal discussions of immediate priorities... Just informal, though,

no cast-iron guarantees? I have said I will absolutely work hand in glove

to make sure that his priorities and my priorities coincide so that the

European Union who are preparing negotiations for the disentanglement

is absolutely in the interest of Wales. The Welsh government has gone

ahead and set up its own unit in Brussels working with institutions

there, getting on with the work already, are you feeding into that

at all? The prime negotiations will be done from the European Union --

unit at Whitehall because it is the member state that does it but any

additional work and support the Welsh government can provide we will

use the information... They say they are just ploughing

ahead without Whitehall and they just want to get the work done. We

are working already on preparations for it but let us not forget that we

don't want to see Article 50 invoked or the formal negotiations to star

because once it does the clock starts ticking to two years and the

more work we can do before that, the stronger position the next Prime

Minister will be in in order to use that information to strike the best

deal. At the same time we needed to calm down and we need relationships

across Europe to be strengthened between the European nations but

also between Britain and those individual countries. Some countries

are more sympathetic to our position than ours and we clearly want to

evolve that relationship so that they will be influencers and friends

around the negotiation table. Alun Cairns, thank you very much.

Unlike Wales and England, Scotland and Northern Ireland

voted to stay in the EU, so what could all of this mean for

The Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has suggested a second

independence referendum could be held if it emerged as

the only way to protect Scotland's place in the EU.

And the question of independence is also being raised here in Wales,

by Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood, who is proposing a new union

Until now, Plaid has only regarded an independent Wales

Thank you for coming in this evening. What happened last Thursday

that makes you think an independent Wales more than ever before is the

answer? This is not a situation of our own choosing. People voted last

week to Brexit, but Scotland clearly voted to remain and Northern Ireland

did as well, and what we have heard since then is that people in

Scotland looks set to pursue and agenda, a referendum agenda, and if

they vote to leave the United Kingdom of course the United Kingdom

will exist no more, so under those circumstances we believe that there

is an opportunity for Wales now to have a conversation about our

long-term future and we believe that Wales as an independent nation, in a

new union of nations, within the United Kingdom could be a way

forward for us if that is what people would choose. Why should

Wales be any different to England? The referendum result was pretty

much the same so why would people go for independence on the basis of

that? The UK referendum result last week was the same for both of us.

People voted for the UK to pull out of the European Union. They did not

vote for Wales to disappear. There is a very real risk that we could

lose our national identity if the UK is no more. The idea of a right-wing

England and Wales entity is something that I am not prepared to

put up with without being able to offer an alternative. You talk about

a new union. What does independence mean if it is a union and would

Scotland be interested in that? Regardless of what happens in terms

of each individual nation's independence, there would still be a

need for the four countries that currently make up the United Kingdom

to cooperate together. If independence is on the cards for

Scotland, they said in the last referendum that they would continue

with the same currency as the rest of the UK. So there are means by

which we would need to pool some functions and it's up to each of us

as independent individual nations then to decide how much we pool and

how much we keep for ourselves. For example, you'd know the report

earlier this year said an independent Wales would have a

financial black hole of about ?15 billion a year because tax taken

isn't as much as the benefits. That would stay then? One option would be

for us to work out between us how we can redistribute the United

Kingdom's current wealth between us as nations. That is one option.

Short of full financial independence, because you are right.

There is a big job of work to do to close that financial prosperity gap

and that his work we need to do as well. Plaid Cymru has been saying

that for a long time. We want to be in the position of having a path

potentially back into European Union membership if that's something that

people want to do long term. You seem to be ignoring what happened

last Thursday. You are treating Wales as if it was Scotland. People

in Wales voted out of the EU and you seem to be trying to find a path

back in. You are right, people voted out, but we are talking about a new

context. If the UK is no more and Wales chooses to go down the path of

independence within a new union of nations, that opens up new

possibilities for us and we should be prepared to look at all

possibilities on the table. We interviewed Carwyn trained earlier

on and I said he wasn't true to Labour's heartland and isn't the

same from you. Is there any wilful independence in Wales? I think what

happened last week is that people voted for posterity. -- they voted

for change. They wanted to fight against austerity and I don't think

that what we saw on Thursday was any different to me winning the Rhondda.

They are losing out and they want to have a voice and they say. Of course

we respect that. But also we have do think about Wales and its long-term

needs and as things stand at the moment we have no clue where we are

going. Our economy is under threat, jobs are under threat, finances for

Wales are under threat. We need to have some idea where we are going as

a nation and Plaid Cymru believes that a number of options should be

on the table and nothing should be ruled out. In the more immediate

future, discussions will be taking place in the next few days and

weeks. Should you be part of those negotiations? Yes, I think we did

have a team Wales approach to this. We should speak as one voice, as

Wales, in terms of making sure that our needs articulate it and that we

are very clear about what we all want from the situation. Nicola

Sturgeon is going on harrowing. I'm the one making the decisions. She is

not listening to anyone else. Why should Carwyn Jones? She has a

mandate to remain from the people in her country. In Wales, it is less

clear-cut. People voted pretty much the D - 50. Maybe that if a mandate

for decisive action now so as not to confuse things? What we have to do

is to make sure that Wales and its needs are met in full and I believe

we can best make that happen by approaching it is Wales now, not as

Welsh government. The worst government is a minority

government... As is the SNP in Scotland? I think they have much

more of a mandate to speak about half of the people of Scotland

bearing in mind the referendum result than the First Minister of

Wales does. The implications of the referendum results will no doubt be

debated for years to come. The apparent disconnect

between our politicians and voters will be a big part

of that conversation. With most Welsh politicians

supporting the UK's continued membership of the EU

and the majority of voters in Wales choosing to leave,

are our politicians out of touch? I'll be discussing this

with political commentators Professor Laura McAlister

and Daran Hill in just a moment. But first, here's the view

from Ebbw Vale, in Blaenau Gwent, which returned the biggest

leave vote in Wales. My parents voted Labour and it was

always thought that Labour were for the working people but that's no

longer true. Their role as bad as each other. They don't tell the

truth, they lie about everything. They only have to open their mouths

and they are lying, most of them. David Cameron, my boat out of Europe

was a protest against him. I would vote for you Ukip and that would be

a protest vote against the other parties. I've never voted before and

I'll never vote again. 40 years ago our country was fabulous and now it

is a shambles. It can't get anywhere, can it? We need to stand

on our own two feet. We don't need other people. We want our country to

be ours. There was nobody in particular that I was voting

against. I just think we need a change. We have to think about our

children's beach. We don't want them struggling like we have struggled. I

vote for the people -- the party that I think will be the best for

the people. I don't think there's anyone they get that I can... I

think they want to get rid of the lot of them and start again. Start

with a clean slate. Well, plenty to discuss them with my guests.

Professor Laura McAlister and Daran Hill.

Thank you for coming in this evening. That makes a grim viewing

for any politician in terms of the complete disconnect not with any

party but with politics in general. In fairness, this has been a long

time coming. Rather be right back to the beginning of devolution when we

had such a long -- Ltd popular support for establishing the

assembly and we have seen low turnouts, the electoral system

benefiting one big party in terms of getting elected, but there's been no

real big will towards either the project or the politicians and this

referendum of last week, where we saw a much bigger turnout of course

than any assembly election, reflected the chasm which exists now

between elected representatives, politicians, and those who are

baiting. Will this be a wake-up call? In terms of labour losing its

heartlands, Plaid Cymru not convincing the newly found support,

they have turned their back on everyone? Will this change things? I

have been waiting for a change in the last three years since Ukip did

really well in the European elections and almost beat the Labour

Party. I watched last year when Ukip held every deposit. Every pattern of

voting suggests to me that something radically has changed in terms of

the way many people connect with politics. Since that boat came in on

Friday, finally, Plaid Cymru, that Liberal Democrats, the mainstream

Labour Party have all realised what was blindingly obvious to many other

people, that on the question of Europe, fundamentally, Wales was not

with them and Wales was not ready to be taken for granted. But let me

pursue this point. Since that fate last week, what's really changed in

terms of the narrative coming out about main political parties? Plaid

Cymru has been calling for independence and trying to pretend

that Wales almost wanted to stay in in the fairway that Scotland did and

the Labour Party is talking about protecting funding, ie no real

change, just carry on spending the same blocks of money in the same

way. Laura, we spent two Carwyn Jones today and up at the point to

him that there needs to be a lot of soul-searching for the Labour Party

now. If we don't represent the working class communities, what's

the point? It doesn't seem to me that he was embracing the need for

any change. Is there a danger that they will carry on regardless,

ignoring, to an extent, the result last week? I can't see a big danger

than ignoring this result, to be honest. If every one of the

political parties don't do some really serious analysis, and really

forensic soul-searching, of the kind that Daran was talking about, they

are all in trouble. The point is, they can't do this alone. If they

look parochially at their own teams that listening to the electorate,

they are missing big messages that came over last week. What you make

of the Plaid Cymru response which is that actually, let's go for

independence again. Is that a knee jerk reaction? I understand it but

they have a couple of fundamental problems that stop at the

incredible. First of all, as we said a moment ago, Wales didn't vote like

Scotland. That is really fundamental. Secondly, it was clear

that all of the political leaders in Wales failed to get any kind of

traction with the electorate in terms of what they were saying.

Leanne Wood's own constituency voted in favour of leave and thirdly, the

population of Wales is not like the population of Scotland. There is in

this groundswell of support for the independence and the economic

situation that we face now makes the Welsh economy even less sustainable

than it might have been before the way -- before the vote last week.

Just under half of Wales were for remaining if you look at the

statistics. Is it worth looking at that, tapping into it and saying the

only way to remain in that is to become independent. The cynical part

of me thinks that they just assumed we would vote remain, England would

fade out and then they would be able to dust of the independence card. My

concern is that we are in danger of losing a national Welsh politics

here. If you look back at the elections, the assembly elections,

that was just a selection of local elections. That is the problem we

have now. We have a progressive elite in some of the metropolitan

areas like Cardiff who can't quite believe what the rest of Wales is

voting and yet anybody who is committed to a national solution to

this in Wales has do really embrace all these areas and come up with a

plan to satisfy more people than just those in their immediate

facility. I was really surprised when people said they couldn't

believe how many people voted leave. I think a lot of us could believe

it. Maybe they are not talking to people in the right way in the right

circles, because as your clip showed a moment ago, there is a complete

lack of trust and a complete lack of respect for politicians as they are

seen by the electorate. But we are where we are now, as a country

moving ahead. I don't mean this as a criticism, but you do get the idea

that maybe a lot of the politicians are stumbling in the dark at the

moment, not really sure what will happen next, where will they go,

what will they do? Is that a fair summary? It's difficult to get a

battle plan when the world is falling apart around your ears,

regardless of which political party you are in, there are so many

seismic changes occurring. For lots of individuals and lots of people in

the hierarchies of the political parties that were on the remain

side, they need to have a serious think about how they failed to

convince the Welsh electorate. I think that stronger in was the worst

political campaign, you use the word elitist, are back that up 100%. No

wonder they won in Cardiff and lost everywhere else. The messages were

establishment based. They kept talking about figures and spending

without referring to individual projects. Do you know what? I don't

think people believed them. I think in the poorest parts of Wales,

obviously there was a corollary between deprivation and Vote Leave

in the patterns of voting, in the poorest areas of Wales, as Daran

said, those arguments about protecting savings and pensions and

jobs didn't have any traction is because a lot of people didn't have

jobs or savings. It is naive to think that argument would land well

in those areas. Thank you both very much. I can't let you go though

without talking about one element of where we are still in Europe. How is

it going to look on Friday? I am quietly confident. It will be a hard

game against Belgium but the word from Wales camp is that they have

real confidence that we can get past them and my tip is that it will be

in extra time. You heard it here first.

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