29/06/2016 The Wales Report


Arwyn Jones presents the current affairs series taking a look at issues that matter in Wales and asks decision-makers about the consequences of their choices.

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We have the Secretary of State for Wales, the leader of Plaid Cymru and


either a couple of experts in order to answer questions on what next for


Wales. Good evening and welcome


to a special Wales Report. Tonight, we'll be looking


at the impact of last week's referendum and the UK's decision


to leave the EU on us here in Wales. The fallout from the result


shows no sign of waning, with the impact of the Brexit vote


being keenly felt by the main political parties, both


in Westminster and in the Senedd. Like England, Wales voted to leave


the EU, but most Welsh politicians had called on people to back


the Remain campaign, leaving them with some pretty big


questions to answer. Remember, you can join


in the discussion - Colin Jones, can you update is on


where you are with negotiations on where we are with the European


Union. We are setting up our own team in Brussels and the job of that


team will be to start negotiations. We are in a different position to


Scotland. Our people voted to leave the European Union. There is no


getting away from that. But they voted to leave the European Union,


not get done over by them. What are your team doing? We are putting


experience into the team there and taking advice from the people


involved in the Democratic vote. We are on a different perspective to


Scotland and from my perspective I want to make sure we get the best


deal for Wales. The money coming should not be stuck in London. In


terms of those carrying out the discussions, we know that the Leeds


side wanted some of their representatives to be part of that


sensation team. Is that something you'd consider or allowed to happen?


They don't know what they want both. I listened carefully to the leader


of the Welsh Conservatives yesterday, asking him for 3


advantages of leaving the EU, and he couldn't even give me 1. This is a


Welsh government negotiation. Of course we will report back to the


other parties but we need to get on with this. You say you have got


teams out there doing work. How much planning happened before the vote on


Thursday. It's very difficult to carry out detailed planning because


we don't know what happens next. I've listened to Leave campaigners


and it's a bit like somebody who's throwing a brick through a window


and said how do we put the window back together again. Didn't you have


anybody in Cardiff Bay saying, that we might vote out, what will we do


afterwards? It would have been a different scenario if we had baited


to remain rather than leave. -- voted. We would be speaking to


Gibraltar, Scotland and Northern Ireland about how to protect


ourselves. We voted to leave so we will be discussing how to get the


best deal with after leaving. I got hands tied because of that? Only


because that is what people wanted. There's no getting away from that. I


do not want to see the money that Wales receives at the moment


disappear into a money box in London. We need to get the best deal


possible for our people. You say that you want to be part of the


single market. You know that free movement of labour will be an


intrinsic part of that. If you allow that to happen, isn't that going


against the wishes of the people in Wales who have said they don't want


that? At the moment the only models on the table involve free movement


of people for market access. Some people have said that will change.


Well, let's see. From my perspective, I went be saying that


we want is the pre-movement of people but what we do wonders access


to the single market. After that vividly vital for Welsh business.


How do you square that circle? Let's see how flexible the European Union


are prepared to be. Flexibility isn't normally a word you'd


associate with the European Union. If an oil tank. The question for me


is, the union needs to survive. It needs to be far more flexible to


survive. That means being farm flexible in terms of changing the


ways that have been traditional for 40 years but have to change. You've


clearly set up on these negotiations now. Are you concerned that barely


made infrastructure projects, such as the Metro project, might be


kicked into the long grass now or cancelled altogether? I wrote to the


Prime Minister asking him to keep to the promise that every single penny


wheelies will be made up by the government. It wasn't his promise


there, was it? I expect that promise to be kept by whoever is bigger than


ever to Prime Minister. If that promise is not kept we went be able


to fund projects that had an element of European funding, which would


mean that Wales loses out. What would be the effect if that money


that was coming in doesn't come in any more? If we don't get the money


from London, the Metro is in difficulty. There are road schemes


and apprenticeship schemes that would be in difficulty as well. The


leave campaigners made a pledge that everything up any of that scheme


would come to Wales for us to decide how the money would be spent. If


that money doesn't come, we have a number of problems. We saw in


Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon called an emergency cabinet, was calling


leaders. Do you regret that it was Monday before you had another


cabinet. Why not hold it 2448 hrs earlier? Two things, I'm not sure


why the -- whether the Scots have got anywhere. And it was a different


object array. Scotland voted to remain, Wales didn't. Scotland has


decided it wants to stay in the EU. The Scottish Government has decided


that means independence. That is not the view of the people of Wales.


From our perspective, this is a long-term game. This will not be


resolved in the next week or two but it is something which needs to be


resolved in the best interests of the people of Wales in regard to


what they baited next week. Considering how Scotland and Wales


-- Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, what went wrong in


Wales? If it was in my control, I would not have chosen this time to


have a vote. The English papers and the Eurosceptics have much more


penetration in Wales than they do in Northern Ireland and Scotland. That


affected people. People were raising immigration with me and where


immigration was low, people thought it was a much more important issue.


A strange paradox but that is what happened. People would say to me


when I pointed out European projects that it is our money anyway. It


wasn't but now they expect it to be delivered by the Leave Campaign.


Isn't it a fairly damning indictment of the Labour government since


devolution that we had billions of pounds coming in, 15 years of that,


that they turn round and say, we are not interested in that at all, we


will turn our backs on the institution that was giving us the


money. That's because of the way you have handled that, isn't it? No,


people were saying to me that this is our money. From Wales's


perspective this was money coming in from the European Union and it is


money that needs to keep coming in. Why went to bed saying, if Carl


Wynne Jones says so, that must be it? Six weeks after the election


campaign, it is impossible to have an effective referendum campaign.


Most Labour voters voted to remain and most conservative voters voted


to leave and that tells you something. It was a difficult


campaign to fight. We have had people saying there needs to be a


time of soul-searching, of listening because we don't connect with our


working class communities, what's the point of labour gesture market


doesn't seem to me that you are buying into that. That is correct.


-- she is correct. We had an election six weeks ago and they gave


us the largest share of the vote. There was a massive drop in your


share. We worked hard to make sure that we maximised our vote and I was


told it would be worse. There are some communities that will


disconnected from politics, from all politics, and some people were


saying to me it is a protest vote. They are angry and this is how they


are letting it out. Lots of people were saying to me, we are still


labour, I am going to vote Labour but I'm going to give the Tories a


kicking. When you tried to explain this was not how to do it, they


didn't want to hear that. What is clear is that those who made the


promises to Wales have do keep them and we make sure the money still


comes to Wales. That glosses over the disconnect between you and your


heartland, the working-class areas, which I've always supported Labour


and now certainly from your point of view, from Jeremy Corbyn's point of


view, and listening, aren't interested. Many of our voters


disagreed with us on the referendum question for a number of issues.


There are questions for us as a party to make sure we can connect


with many of our voters again and we can -- we have had this conversation


within the party. That means we have got local government elections next


year, hugely important that our counsellors are active in our


communities as many of them are in order to build up from grass weeds.


You say you need to listen, something needs to change. What is


going to change? We've heard this before and yet here you are being


given a kicking in your heartland. Part of the answer lies in job


security. I came across people and it was clear to me that the U was


the target for them because they felt insecure. They doubt that there


are jobs were not valued, why not well paid, there was no union


representation and they were without job security. They remembered their


parents having all those things. How do you deal with all of that? We


have to move back to the days when the society had proper employment


rights and people felt desperately insecure and will express that


unless they get the kind of security in their lives that they once


enjoyed. Globalisation is a good thing in some ways but for many


people it's led to secure well-paid jobs becoming insecure, temporary


contracts, sometimes zero hours, with Labour pensions at the end of


it. That needs to be dealt with properly so that people have


implement rights at a UK level. At a UK level, I mentioned there was a


failure on your part and Jeremy Corbyn could have the same said


about him. What do you make of the contest? This was never going to be


resolved in any other way. The party is deeply divided. We have no hope


of winning an election if we carry on like this. There needs to be a


resolution and then of course that means a leadership election. Do you


think there will be an election later this year? It would need


support from Labour MPs for that to occur and that would be difficult. I


want to be in a position in October when we are far stronger and in a


position to win in an election but we're not at the moment. Would


Jeremy Corbyn be your first choice of leader to go into that election?


I never support any particular candidate for a leadership bid. I


never call on other leaders of my own party to consider their


position, that is not my role. What I do say and what is obvious to


everybody is that we can't carry on with things as they are. The only


way to resolve this is through another leadership contest. If you


have a situation down here in the Assembly where the overwhelming


majority of Assembly members here were calling for you to stand down


and no confidence, as Jeremy Corbyn housing, would you carry on as he


has done? It is difficult to see how that would be possible if it


happened here in Cardiff. The only way to resolve this is through


another leadership contest. Is the outcome of that leadership contest


going to be that Jeremy Corbyn will win again because he has the


overwhelming support of members? He did last year but we don't know what


the outcome will be this time around but what we do know is that we can't


carry on as we are. We can't be in a situation where we have the vast


majority of MPs was no confidence in their own leader and the only way to


resolve it is through another leadership contest. Is there a


problem if Jeremy Corbyn has to stand again and wins, what does that


say to you going into the general election we might see later this


year when the party will be massively divided in terms of MPs


having to fall behind a leader they don't really want? We can't win an


election if we are seen as divided. It is obvious, we saw that in 1983.


You say you were call for him to leave but it seems to me that


everything you are saying is that he should probably leave. No, I am


saying there should be another leadership contest and that is the


only way that this can be resolved. How hopeful are you with any chance


of winning an election with Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of Labour? We


have no chance as things stand given the current state of the party


Westminster and this needs to be revolved -- resolved. That was the


First Minister. The new leader will have a fully


tray waiting when they take up office in September but the first


task is the not so small matter of negotiating the British withdrawal


from the European Union. Key to making the Welsh voice heard in


those negotiations as the Secretary of State, the Conservative MP, Alun


Cairns, I caught up with him earlier.


We are few days on an hour from the referendum campaign. Why did Wales


and the UK vote to leave the European Union? What is really


important is that we have to respond to the referendum outcome. People


voted and they have made their decision so it is up to the


government now to respond positively on that basis so as a result I have


been holding a series of meetings with business leaders and with


higher education and further education colleges and local


authorities and I have plans of meeting a range of charities as well


that benefit from the European single market or European aid.


Coming on to that in a moment. I just want to get your views on what


happens, especially in those parts of Wales that we have been


discussing that received most money from the European Union grants and


the ones that strongly voted to leave the European Union. What went


on there, do you think? It is difficult to tell but it is almost


irrelevant at this stage because we need to demonstrate that we are


responding to the demand to leave the European Union but we also need


to understand why and Willie to look at the European aid programmes in


those areas that would have voted most in favour of remaining in the


European Union and a small part of that might be how the lack of


traction of those schemes would have had. Some of the projects that were


being pursued might not have resonated in the way that the


designers of those projects would have thought. That might have been


part of it but the wider issue of benefit claimants across people in


Europe and immigration problems and how they saw that that was not being


managed. Is that saying that grant money was wasted money? We need to


look at that. I am not saying it is the single answer but it is a


complex situation about relationships between communities


that certain parts of the country voted leave and other parts of the


country voted remain and we need to analyse that end it is far too


simplistic to come up with one answer. Looking at your colleagues


as Conservative MPs and awful lot of promises were made about that money


coming to Wales and Wales would not be a penny worse off in the event of


a leave vote. How important is it for you now that you personally hold


those colleagues of yours to account and make sure they keep their


promises? The referendum decision has been taken and the Prime


Minister set up a specialist unit in Whitehall that will analyse all of


the implications so that by the time the new Prime Minister is in place


in a couple of months' time, that he or she would be in the best possible


place to respond. I have been meeting with businesses, with


universities and further education colleges and local authorities to


find out what are their priorities so as the Secretary of State I will


be feeding into that unit but also responding to the recommendations of


that unit in the Cabinet table. You are the voice of Wales in that


cabinet table and promises were made that money would still be coming to


Wales. Surely it is your job to say that you need to keep that promise?


Of course there are lots of uncertainties but I will absolutely


be banging the jump for Wales as I know the First Minister will be and


I will be working and in glove in getting a fair settlement for Wales


but there are lots of uncertainties and we don't know the impact on the


economy but I have been hugely encouraged today by the response


from businesses and the best quote I heard was that entrepreneurs thrive


on change and that was the response from businesses who are exporting


already and importing now and it demonstrates the dynamism that


exists. We are in a much stronger position. The deficit is at a much


lower level than it was and the economy is in a robust position and


we have the fastest growth of any of the world's leading nations so when


you put it all in contacts we are in a good position to respond.


When you businesses say they thrive on change and so on, that is in


marked contrast to what we had in the referendum campaign and might


feed into the idea that it was a project fear on behalf of the remain


campaigners. Businesses are telling me that they see the opportunities


now that they have here and they are realists and they are pragmatic and


they have to react on the decision of the referendum, there is no point


wallowing in it and saying it is doom and gloom because we can't get


access anymore but they now see that markets elsewhere, they now see that


they are rightly making demands that they will have as much of open


access to the open market as possible. I have said to them that I


will be making the UK Tite resource available to them so that the


response from the UK Government, that they are fully part of that to


trade and import and export to places not only in Europe but well


beyond. I guess for businesses, they always say uncertainty is the enemy


of businesses so wouldn't it it therefore have been better if the


whole process and negotiation began immediately and in that regard may


be David Cameron's idea to stand down and nothing starting now until


September and all that uncertainty will continue for two months. I was


so recovered -- encouraged by the response from business and


universities and the local authorities. None of them want


article 50 invoked immediately, they would prefer a period of calm so


that we can analyse what the implications are and then the Prime


Minister is in the strongest position to respond when he or she


becomes Prime Minister. I would expect, and let's be frank, for the


next two years absolutely, and I would suggest beyond that, for the


next two years we are full and active members of the European Union


so we get full access to the markets and full draw down on the benefits


that come out of Europe and then we should not be ashamed of that but at


the same time we will be negotiating how we leave and what lies beyond.


You're going to have two sides of the Conservative Party who have been


throwing insults at each other and now they somehow have to come


together and unite under one leader. I have spoken to most of the


leadership contenders and I will speak to them all before the day is


out. They are all calling for calm, they are all recognising the work


that needs to be done before the formal negotiations start. There is


an awful lot of work to be done that is why I have been talking to


businesses and local authorities and colleges and universities and so on


to understand their priority because I will be taking the priority to the


European Union unit and I will also be responding around the Cabinet


table to the recommendations that come out of that unit said the


opportunities that have been highlighted and the concerns that


been written expressed will be responded to absolutely run the


Cabinet table. Who should be at the head of that table and the next


Prime Minister, in your view? I have said I am supporting Stephen Crabb.


I worked very closely with him when he was Secretary of State for Wales


Andy had an enormous positive impact on people will remember the tanking


of the electrification of the valleys line, for example. I also


remember the problems of the Wales Bill under his leadership. Should it


be someone who was campaigning to leave the European Union, given that


it will be the most important issue facing the next Prime Minister? The


next Prime Minister will be one who unifies the party, quite obviously


it will be on that basis. All of the potential leaders have talked about


bringing the party together, about responding to the situation that we


are in. The country has taken the decision and Wales has taken the


decision and sometimes of the most deprived communities to leave the


European Union so it is up to us as politicians to provide leadership


and respond to their demands and that is what I am absolutely


determined to do and that is what I am talking to businesses and


colleges and universities and to the communities themselves about what


they need out of this new situation. We'll Stephen Crabb really be able


to tell people and convince them that he in what he is doing when


actually he was voting for the complete opposite to happen? Time is


past. The referendum was last we are responding to that referendum. We


have set up the unit and the negotiations have started with the


Prime Minister at the European Commission. He has already been


building relationships individually with those leaders. I am already


feeding in the responses from businesses and universities and so


on to that unit and I have already championed the case of wells around


the Cabinet table because we absolutely need to ensure that the


union is not fragmented and Wales gets its fair share and I will


absolutely deliver on that. Have you spoken to Carwyn Jones or anyone


from the Welsh government in terms of how you move with them to move


on? I have. I spoke to them immediately after the referendum and


we work closely anyway and I met him at an event on Saturday where we


were jointly standing at Armed Forces Day. We obviously had


informal discussions of immediate priorities... Just informal, though,


no cast-iron guarantees? I have said I will absolutely work hand in glove


to make sure that his priorities and my priorities coincide so that the


European Union who are preparing negotiations for the disentanglement


is absolutely in the interest of Wales. The Welsh government has gone


ahead and set up its own unit in Brussels working with institutions


there, getting on with the work already, are you feeding into that


at all? The prime negotiations will be done from the European Union --


unit at Whitehall because it is the member state that does it but any


additional work and support the Welsh government can provide we will


use the information... They say they are just ploughing


ahead without Whitehall and they just want to get the work done. We


are working already on preparations for it but let us not forget that we


don't want to see Article 50 invoked or the formal negotiations to star


because once it does the clock starts ticking to two years and the


more work we can do before that, the stronger position the next Prime


Minister will be in in order to use that information to strike the best


deal. At the same time we needed to calm down and we need relationships


across Europe to be strengthened between the European nations but


also between Britain and those individual countries. Some countries


are more sympathetic to our position than ours and we clearly want to


evolve that relationship so that they will be influencers and friends


around the negotiation table. Alun Cairns, thank you very much.


Unlike Wales and England, Scotland and Northern Ireland


voted to stay in the EU, so what could all of this mean for


The Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has suggested a second


independence referendum could be held if it emerged as


the only way to protect Scotland's place in the EU.


And the question of independence is also being raised here in Wales,


by Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood, who is proposing a new union


Until now, Plaid has only regarded an independent Wales


Thank you for coming in this evening. What happened last Thursday


that makes you think an independent Wales more than ever before is the


answer? This is not a situation of our own choosing. People voted last


week to Brexit, but Scotland clearly voted to remain and Northern Ireland


did as well, and what we have heard since then is that people in


Scotland looks set to pursue and agenda, a referendum agenda, and if


they vote to leave the United Kingdom of course the United Kingdom


will exist no more, so under those circumstances we believe that there


is an opportunity for Wales now to have a conversation about our


long-term future and we believe that Wales as an independent nation, in a


new union of nations, within the United Kingdom could be a way


forward for us if that is what people would choose. Why should


Wales be any different to England? The referendum result was pretty


much the same so why would people go for independence on the basis of


that? The UK referendum result last week was the same for both of us.


People voted for the UK to pull out of the European Union. They did not


vote for Wales to disappear. There is a very real risk that we could


lose our national identity if the UK is no more. The idea of a right-wing


England and Wales entity is something that I am not prepared to


put up with without being able to offer an alternative. You talk about


a new union. What does independence mean if it is a union and would


Scotland be interested in that? Regardless of what happens in terms


of each individual nation's independence, there would still be a


need for the four countries that currently make up the United Kingdom


to cooperate together. If independence is on the cards for


Scotland, they said in the last referendum that they would continue


with the same currency as the rest of the UK. So there are means by


which we would need to pool some functions and it's up to each of us


as independent individual nations then to decide how much we pool and


how much we keep for ourselves. For example, you'd know the report


earlier this year said an independent Wales would have a


financial black hole of about ?15 billion a year because tax taken


isn't as much as the benefits. That would stay then? One option would be


for us to work out between us how we can redistribute the United


Kingdom's current wealth between us as nations. That is one option.


Short of full financial independence, because you are right.


There is a big job of work to do to close that financial prosperity gap


and that his work we need to do as well. Plaid Cymru has been saying


that for a long time. We want to be in the position of having a path


potentially back into European Union membership if that's something that


people want to do long term. You seem to be ignoring what happened


last Thursday. You are treating Wales as if it was Scotland. People


in Wales voted out of the EU and you seem to be trying to find a path


back in. You are right, people voted out, but we are talking about a new


context. If the UK is no more and Wales chooses to go down the path of


independence within a new union of nations, that opens up new


possibilities for us and we should be prepared to look at all


possibilities on the table. We interviewed Carwyn trained earlier


on and I said he wasn't true to Labour's heartland and isn't the


same from you. Is there any wilful independence in Wales? I think what


happened last week is that people voted for posterity. -- they voted


for change. They wanted to fight against austerity and I don't think


that what we saw on Thursday was any different to me winning the Rhondda.


They are losing out and they want to have a voice and they say. Of course


we respect that. But also we have do think about Wales and its long-term


needs and as things stand at the moment we have no clue where we are


going. Our economy is under threat, jobs are under threat, finances for


Wales are under threat. We need to have some idea where we are going as


a nation and Plaid Cymru believes that a number of options should be


on the table and nothing should be ruled out. In the more immediate


future, discussions will be taking place in the next few days and


weeks. Should you be part of those negotiations? Yes, I think we did


have a team Wales approach to this. We should speak as one voice, as


Wales, in terms of making sure that our needs articulate it and that we


are very clear about what we all want from the situation. Nicola


Sturgeon is going on harrowing. I'm the one making the decisions. She is


not listening to anyone else. Why should Carwyn Jones? She has a


mandate to remain from the people in her country. In Wales, it is less


clear-cut. People voted pretty much the D - 50. Maybe that if a mandate


for decisive action now so as not to confuse things? What we have to do


is to make sure that Wales and its needs are met in full and I believe


we can best make that happen by approaching it is Wales now, not as


Welsh government. The worst government is a minority


government... As is the SNP in Scotland? I think they have much


more of a mandate to speak about half of the people of Scotland


bearing in mind the referendum result than the First Minister of


Wales does. The implications of the referendum results will no doubt be


debated for years to come. The apparent disconnect


between our politicians and voters will be a big part


of that conversation. With most Welsh politicians


supporting the UK's continued membership of the EU


and the majority of voters in Wales choosing to leave,


are our politicians out of touch? I'll be discussing this


with political commentators Professor Laura McAlister


and Daran Hill in just a moment. But first, here's the view


from Ebbw Vale, in Blaenau Gwent, which returned the biggest


leave vote in Wales. My parents voted Labour and it was


always thought that Labour were for the working people but that's no


longer true. Their role as bad as each other. They don't tell the


truth, they lie about everything. They only have to open their mouths


and they are lying, most of them. David Cameron, my boat out of Europe


was a protest against him. I would vote for you Ukip and that would be


a protest vote against the other parties. I've never voted before and


I'll never vote again. 40 years ago our country was fabulous and now it


is a shambles. It can't get anywhere, can it? We need to stand


on our own two feet. We don't need other people. We want our country to


be ours. There was nobody in particular that I was voting


against. I just think we need a change. We have to think about our


children's beach. We don't want them struggling like we have struggled. I


vote for the people -- the party that I think will be the best for


the people. I don't think there's anyone they get that I can... I


think they want to get rid of the lot of them and start again. Start


with a clean slate. Well, plenty to discuss them with my guests.


Professor Laura McAlister and Daran Hill.


Thank you for coming in this evening. That makes a grim viewing


for any politician in terms of the complete disconnect not with any


party but with politics in general. In fairness, this has been a long


time coming. Rather be right back to the beginning of devolution when we


had such a long -- Ltd popular support for establishing the


assembly and we have seen low turnouts, the electoral system


benefiting one big party in terms of getting elected, but there's been no


real big will towards either the project or the politicians and this


referendum of last week, where we saw a much bigger turnout of course


than any assembly election, reflected the chasm which exists now


between elected representatives, politicians, and those who are


baiting. Will this be a wake-up call? In terms of labour losing its


heartlands, Plaid Cymru not convincing the newly found support,


they have turned their back on everyone? Will this change things? I


have been waiting for a change in the last three years since Ukip did


really well in the European elections and almost beat the Labour


Party. I watched last year when Ukip held every deposit. Every pattern of


voting suggests to me that something radically has changed in terms of


the way many people connect with politics. Since that boat came in on


Friday, finally, Plaid Cymru, that Liberal Democrats, the mainstream


Labour Party have all realised what was blindingly obvious to many other


people, that on the question of Europe, fundamentally, Wales was not


with them and Wales was not ready to be taken for granted. But let me


pursue this point. Since that fate last week, what's really changed in


terms of the narrative coming out about main political parties? Plaid


Cymru has been calling for independence and trying to pretend


that Wales almost wanted to stay in in the fairway that Scotland did and


the Labour Party is talking about protecting funding, ie no real


change, just carry on spending the same blocks of money in the same


way. Laura, we spent two Carwyn Jones today and up at the point to


him that there needs to be a lot of soul-searching for the Labour Party


now. If we don't represent the working class communities, what's


the point? It doesn't seem to me that he was embracing the need for


any change. Is there a danger that they will carry on regardless,


ignoring, to an extent, the result last week? I can't see a big danger


than ignoring this result, to be honest. If every one of the


political parties don't do some really serious analysis, and really


forensic soul-searching, of the kind that Daran was talking about, they


are all in trouble. The point is, they can't do this alone. If they


look parochially at their own teams that listening to the electorate,


they are missing big messages that came over last week. What you make


of the Plaid Cymru response which is that actually, let's go for


independence again. Is that a knee jerk reaction? I understand it but


they have a couple of fundamental problems that stop at the


incredible. First of all, as we said a moment ago, Wales didn't vote like


Scotland. That is really fundamental. Secondly, it was clear


that all of the political leaders in Wales failed to get any kind of


traction with the electorate in terms of what they were saying.


Leanne Wood's own constituency voted in favour of leave and thirdly, the


population of Wales is not like the population of Scotland. There is in


this groundswell of support for the independence and the economic


situation that we face now makes the Welsh economy even less sustainable


than it might have been before the way -- before the vote last week.


Just under half of Wales were for remaining if you look at the


statistics. Is it worth looking at that, tapping into it and saying the


only way to remain in that is to become independent. The cynical part


of me thinks that they just assumed we would vote remain, England would


fade out and then they would be able to dust of the independence card. My


concern is that we are in danger of losing a national Welsh politics


here. If you look back at the elections, the assembly elections,


that was just a selection of local elections. That is the problem we


have now. We have a progressive elite in some of the metropolitan


areas like Cardiff who can't quite believe what the rest of Wales is


voting and yet anybody who is committed to a national solution to


this in Wales has do really embrace all these areas and come up with a


plan to satisfy more people than just those in their immediate


facility. I was really surprised when people said they couldn't


believe how many people voted leave. I think a lot of us could believe


it. Maybe they are not talking to people in the right way in the right


circles, because as your clip showed a moment ago, there is a complete


lack of trust and a complete lack of respect for politicians as they are


seen by the electorate. But we are where we are now, as a country


moving ahead. I don't mean this as a criticism, but you do get the idea


that maybe a lot of the politicians are stumbling in the dark at the


moment, not really sure what will happen next, where will they go,


what will they do? Is that a fair summary? It's difficult to get a


battle plan when the world is falling apart around your ears,


regardless of which political party you are in, there are so many


seismic changes occurring. For lots of individuals and lots of people in


the hierarchies of the political parties that were on the remain


side, they need to have a serious think about how they failed to


convince the Welsh electorate. I think that stronger in was the worst


political campaign, you use the word elitist, are back that up 100%. No


wonder they won in Cardiff and lost everywhere else. The messages were


establishment based. They kept talking about figures and spending


without referring to individual projects. Do you know what? I don't


think people believed them. I think in the poorest parts of Wales,


obviously there was a corollary between deprivation and Vote Leave


in the patterns of voting, in the poorest areas of Wales, as Daran


said, those arguments about protecting savings and pensions and


jobs didn't have any traction is because a lot of people didn't have


jobs or savings. It is naive to think that argument would land well


in those areas. Thank you both very much. I can't let you go though


without talking about one element of where we are still in Europe. How is


it going to look on Friday? I am quietly confident. It will be a hard


game against Belgium but the word from Wales camp is that they have


real confidence that we can get past them and my tip is that it will be


in extra time. You heard it here first.


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