19/10/2016 The Wales Report

Tonight on The Wales Report, I'm in Westminster to discuss

the latest Brexit negotiations and what they mean for Wales.

And I'm here in the Senedd, where we'll be discussing

the implications of the Welsh Government's budget announcement.

And in this week of the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster,

will be talking to the leading expert about what happened in the

enquiry. Good evening and welcome

The Wales Report. where Brexit remains

at the top of the agenda. And we'll bring you the latest

fall-out from the Welsh Government's We will be discussing Aberfan later

in the programme. Remember you can join

in the discussion online. The debate around Britain's exit

from the EU, in all its complexity, looks like it won't be coming

to an end anytime soon. We thought it might be useful to ask

three people facing very different challenges what they were hoping

for. I'm Wayne Priest, Chief Executive

of Hydro Industries, a Welsh-based water technology company

operating globally. What we want out of Brexit

is we see this as a great opportunity to initiate

and implement world trade deals in markets that are sometimes

regarded as high risk. market and we think the money that

has been spent currently in Europe could be diverted to a longer term

plan to develop these markets which are fast growth, which would help

best and help the local economy. I'm Gemma Jones from Cwmbran

and I've been working with Bridges Into Work to get

the skills for a job that I've now got working as a creche worker,

if it wasn't for the guys in Bridges who are funded

by the EU I wouldn't have had the chance

to do what I've done. I hope these guys keep getting

the funding they need, whether it is through the EU

or anyone else because they do a I'm Brian Bolland, hill farmer

from Tredegar, what I want out of the Brexit deal

is ideally a ring fenced agricultural budget so we know

where we're going. A lengthy transition period

to allow us to adjust, and to have access to the single

market so that we have somewhere to sell goods

after we've produced it. Some different voices there on the

Brexit hopes and aspirations. I'm joined now by the Wales Office

minister, the Conservative MP, Guto Bebb. Where is the Wales voice to be

heard in these negotiations? The Wales Office is fully involved in

Westminster, and the Secretary of State is in Cabinet to make sure

that the voice of Wales is heard. Also the Wales government has been

significant. We have a devolved institution in Wales, and it is

involved in the whole process. It is a wide ranging stakeholder

engagement, which has been ongoing since the referendum. If somebody

said to you that the main business would take place in that

all-important Cabinet committee on the strategy that the UK Government

is going to pursue, there is no Welsh voice in that committee, so

you cannot pretend that the Welsh voice will be loud and clear. But

they report to Cabinet, where the Secretary of State for Wales sits,

and the Secretary of State will be involved where appropriate. Who

decides when it is appropriate? It will be decided by the needs of

Wales and by ensuring the voice of Wales will be heard. Wouldn't it be

easier to have a permanent voice on that committee? If everyone had a

permanent voice in Westminster at all times, I'm not sure that would

be the way forward. That committee reports to Cabinet. And the Wales

Office has been in engagement with all the departments in Westminster.

It is a process by which the Wales Office have been encouraged by the

fact we are relevant in a Welsh context to make sure that the Brexit

works for Wales as well as the rest of the UK. You are suggesting all

Westminster departments. Surely it will involve a Scottish voice, a

Welsh voice and a voice from Northern Ireland? With respect of

the devolved institutions, that is imperative. We do have devolved

institutions in Britain, who do have to be listened to. I wouldn't want

to be in a situation where the voice of Wales or the Welsh government

wasn't heard. But foreign affairs have not been devolved, so the

ultimate decisions will be taken in Westminster. It is the engagement

that is important. Other voices in Wales have to be heard, farming

unions, educational establishments and businesses. So the engagement is

important, but there is an example here of a government that is

listening, and making sure that the voice of Wales is being heard.

Carwyn Jones said not so long ago that the ratification process needed

to take full account of the Welsh government's view, implying that the

Scottish Government or the Welsh government could put the brake on

things. Clearly, the Prime Minister disagrees with that. Who is right?

The people of Wales never voted for the Welsh government to have a veto

on foreign affairs decisions. There is no veto on any forum affairs

decision, nor this issue. Yesterday, Carwyn Jones met with the Secretary

of State for Brexit and this Secretary of State for Wales. Very

positive. They went on to discuss issues facing education in Wales. It

is all well and good to say they want to have a veto on the issue,

but that isn't very constructed. The needs of Wales are represented by

the Welsh government and the Wales Office to make sure they are taken

into account when we formulate policy about Brexiting the European

Union. Would the needs of Wales be better served staying within the

single market, as members, or negotiating some kind of access to

it. As someone who campaigned to stay in the EU, what is your view? I

had strong views as to the appropriateness of being in the

single market. We cannot escape from the fact that the votes and the

referendum sent strong messages in relation to immigration, for

example. That message is not easy to reconcile with full, tariff free

access to the single market. I do think it's imperative we have as

good a deal for the UK as possible, but also there is a democratic

imperative to ensure we are dealing with the concerns expressed by

people in relation to immigration, which are high in some people's

minds. The government is working to ensure we have strong access the

markets. What does that mean? Strong access, whilst accepting there are

issues in terms of freedom of movement, which will be problematic.

They are very nebulous terms. What does strong access mean in practical

terms? We are looking at ensuring we have as much access to the single

market as possible, whilst reflecting the Democratic view of

people in relation to immigration. We are guilty of thinking that the

only market that matters is the European market. It is clearly very

important, that we need to look at opportunities for Wales to export to

other parts of the world as well. I am looking for the UK to have a free

trading arrangement with Europe and the rest of the world that is as

advantageous to business as possible, whilst also reflecting the

democratic decision taken by people of Wales and the United Kingdom on

the freedom of movement of people. We had some figures from industrial

leaders from Germany, including the car industry, which was a very

important export market for them, saying that we are not looking for

any kind of deal that will look so attractive that other member states

will think, hang on, this looks good. The deal will be a tough one.

The deal, for you as a Wales Office minister, is one that might cause

you concern in terms of the economic impact. I would not be surprised we

are hearing tough noises coming from some of the negotiating partners.

Two sides are playing poker in this game. That is not surprising, but

ultimately, the job of the the UK Government is to secure as good a

deal as possible, and freedom for trade is important to that deal.

That will be a deal between us and the partner organisation. You must

be very tempted to go around parts of Wales and say, I told you so. We

have the pound in a very fragile state, inflation moving upwards, all

the things that campaigners like you said would happen. What are you

saying to people when they say, actually, you might not have been

wrong after all. We decided to legislate for a referendum. The

referendum delivered a result. My responsibility is to ensure we try

to achieve as good a deal as possible for businesses and

stakeholders in Wales. If I went round saying I told you so, I'd be

doing nobody any favours. I need to be constructive and try to make a

difference. When farmers say to me, we need full access to the single

market, it is a case of arguing on behalf of farmers whilst respecting

the referendum result. The same with other areas like universities. We

have indicated a willingness to underwrite European funding up to

2020, which is a way of telling people in Wales that they can

undertake certain projects. We are trying to underpin stability, rather

than deliver a message on what should or shouldn't have happened.

Thank you. It's 50 years since 116

children and 28 adults This week there are many

programmes and events to commemorate the anniversary,

and an important question that has been raised in a programme

on BBC One last night is the role played by the inquiry,

which was held only a few The programme reconstructed parts of

the official enquiry. It lasted five months and heard over

2.5 million words of evidence. At the start of the inquiry,

the National Coal Board repeated their claim

that the disaster could not But that wasn't true. There had been

plenty of warnings. Finally, after over

70 days, Lord Robens, the Coal Board chairman,

admitted that the disaster The inquiry had finally

achieved some justice for the families, but no one

from the National Coal Board named in the inquiry

report lost their jobs. The closing statement of the enquiry

by the Aberfan families QC conveyed the outrage conveyed by so many --

felt by so many. I merely wish this conclusion: Those

who died in this disaster lost their lives not

because of the occupational hazards which are ever present

in these mining valleys - there was no sudden collapse

of underground working, no unforeseeable or unforeseen

explosion. This was a slow-growing man-made

menace, fed by the indifference of those who should never have

permitted its existence. There can be no more bitter reminder

of the truth and wisdom The worst sin towards our fellows

is not to hate them, For that is the essence

of inhumanity. The injustice suffered by the people

at Aberfan clearly made an impact on people that Westminster today,

because it was mentioned by both benches during Prime Minister's

Questions. I know the whole house will want to join me in remembering

those who lost their lives and were affected by the Aberfan disaster 50

years ago this week. It claimed the lives of 144 people, the vast

majority children. It caused devastation to the local community.

It's right that we pause and reflect on this important anniversary, and

recognise the solidarity and resilience of the people of Aberfan

to overcome this tragedy. Many in that community are still living with

that tragedy, and will until the end of their days. I remember it very

well as a young person growing up at that time. Just a sense of today's

events in Parliament. I'm joined by Professor Iain McLean, a leading

expert on the Aberfan disaster, and on the government's response to it.

Thank you for coming in. Given what we now know, and all the work you

have done over the years to expose the work on the enquiry, what is the

main thing people should take away from this?

And think it is this powerful people who know something terrible has

happened have immense resources for ensuring the blame goes anywhere but

on them and Aberfan was such a clear jungle of that. For us now, the idea

that Lord Rubens could survive in post is inconceivable, that his

director of production, who some might have seen on last night's

reconstruction, should have been promoted to the main coal board

after that devastating hearing. That would defy belief if it were to

happen now. Why did it happen then? Was it a deferential press and

media? People didn't want to change people of authority? What was the

condition of circumstances? Combination of more deferential

press and media and a Government that was frankly terrified of Lord

Rubens. The underlying story is. Why? Because governments of both

parties, Lord Rubens was appointed by the previous Conservative

Government, knew that they had to slim down the coal industry. They

also knew that the National union of Mineworkers was believed to be the

most powerful union in the country and Rubens could deal with the

miners, the Government thought, nobody else could. When we look at

the financial side, but Lord Rubens to one side for a moment, look at

the fact that a contribution was required as George, said from the

local community and their charitable fund, again, today it seems an

outrage, it was an average, how was it allowable at that time? It should

not have been allowed, it was unlawful as you sign a documentary

that went out last night, the Charity commission was nowhere to be

seen, they actually caused the disaster fund some trouble and they

were nowhere to be seen when George Thomas demanded an unlawful

contribution from the fund. When you look at the way that Labour as an

institution in South Wales because let's face it, it was at that time

still an incredibly strong Labour five to -- fiefdom, why didn't the

Labour machine a step in to do something? What forces were over?

The fundamental force at work was that everybody in the Labour Party

in South Wales, almost, thought that call nationalisation was the jewel

in the Crown of current active plasma governments of the Aberfan

defeat in 1967 was deeply depressing because a string of Labour MPs stood

up and have nothing to say, two good speeches, one by Leeuwarden who

represented South Wales but did not have mining links and won by

Margaret Thatcher who had just been appointed as shadow spokeswoman on

power and almost got to the heart of the matter. What did she say? She

said, why were two officials whom she named kept out of it? And why

had Mr Sheppard, who we saw last night, Green promoted? These were

excellent questioned and the Government spokesman had no answer.

We've been pointed at George Thomas Bosman rule, what was the premise

to's rule? I give Harold Wilson lots of credit, the machinations that

were going on in the summer of 19 six to seven weather report came out

all laid out in rigid Crossman's diaries so we know what happened. --

19 67. Harold Wilson wrote in Green ink on this copy, this report is

devastating and it was one of the ministers that want sacked Rubens

but the majority of the Cabinet wouldn't have it. By the time of the

George Thomas a fair in paying for the removal of the tips the Prime

Minister had faded out of the story, it was a Welsh matter and up to the

Secretary of State for Wales. I think stopping that nonsense is

something that Harold Wilson could and should have done, the Government

collectively should have done and they didn't. When we look at today's

situation, not just with the media but the way Government works, we've

reported recently on Hillsborough, 1989, the fact it took so long for

South Yorkshire Police to be corrected in a very big way in terms

of how they behave. If someone asked you today includes 16, could we see

a response to a major disaster involving in the same kind of way,

what would you answer be? In some ways I fear it would be the same

because of the incentive for people in power to cover up. In other ways

not. Clearly Lord Rubens and Mr Shepherd would not have survived

five minutes in the modern climate, on the other hand Hillsborough story

is not entirely reassuring, it's taken 25 years and even in current

times there are about what is involving South Yorkshire Police. --

there are backwaters. Things are better but not necessarily that much

better. Thanks for enjoying us and I'm pleased undermine mind if I were

working done over the years on this. Thank you. In those distant days the

Wells purse strings were tightly controlled here at Westminster.

These days the Welsh element do have some freedom to spend the Welsh

budget as a blizzard and the budget announcement this week was a chance

to spell a new priority is after the elections with help of Plaid Cymru.

Its joint R.N. Jones in the Senate. It is a Welsh, set out how it

intends to spend the best part of ?15 billion it gets from the UK

Government next year, today we find out how much will go to local

authorities ahead of those all-important council elections next

year, plenty to discuss with my guest, the finance and Local

Government Secretary Margaret Clifford. Thank you for joining us

on the Wells report. Freshly your first budget and you must have been

quite pleased the UK Government give you some extra cash to spend? My job

has been made easier by the fact we have a little more revenue that we

might have expected for the next financial year. It's been made a lot

more difficult, however, by the highly uncertain circumstances in

which we make a budget. The impact of Brexit and Autumn Statement we

won't see until November and so on. We'll come to Brexit in a moment but

the amount of money you get from the UK Government, we new steering from

the Welsh Government austerity and challenges you face and the problems

caused by the UK Government policies, this year surely you

should welcome the fact that austerity shouldn't have such a

large part in your spending priorities? We have been very clear

throughout that austerity is a foolish and self-defeating policy.

What we have over the period of this assembly is budget that go down

every year beyond this year and we will have 9% less in real terms to

spent in 2019 than 2009, our capital budget will go down by a third, this

is a very small and very marginal respite in a journey that otherwise

has only one direction. UK Government say that over the next

four years we will give the Welsh Government an additional ?370

million that is something? The money goes up in cash terms but everything

else goes up as well, wages rise, price rises and so on, in real terms

budget goes down and will have ?1.5 billion less to spend on vital

public services than we did a decade ago. After so many increases this

year, more for the health service and apprenticeships and a pilot

scheme, only ?10 million this year for additional childcare that could

go up to ?2 million a year, we are other savings going to be coming?

Over the next few years we will face harder choices and more difficult

times, I've booed at the very clear to my Cabinet colleagues and the

services we find. -- I've made that very clear. In this budget we had to

decide to stop some projects that are time-limited and will not be

funded next year, we will have to make adjustments, it's a matter of

priorities when you set a budget, we are determined to deliver on the

ambitious programme we set before the voters in May of next year and

some things will have to be pulled back or stop altogether in future

budgets to allow for that to happen. When you look at the possibilities

of the possible problems that might be thrown about Brexit, positive

stories as well but may be problems, how concerned are you about the

possibility, for example we saw the leaked Treasury report, ?66 billion

over deficit and a black qualified as is, how much of a concern is

that? It is a major concern, the Welsh Government were unambiguous in

our advice to people in June that the future of Wales would be better

protected in the European Union than out of it. We got a different

message back and we live with that and have to act on it but there are

two mad difficulties, at least the flow from it, funding that we were

guaranteed to get from Europe might not, are we after we leave the

European Union. And more significantly the ?66 billion figure

is the result of a calculation outside the European Union UK

economy will grow more slowly than it would have done if we were in the

European Union, that will lead to a reduction in tax receipts and that

will flow into even further cuts for public services. What will be the

knock-on effect in terms of your spending? Further cuts but also for

the first time the Welsh Government and you as the finest secretary have

at your disposal additional levers for taxation levers, do you think

you might have to consider using those to give a boost to the

economy? The taxes we will inherit in April 2018 are modest but

important, the message we've had unambiguously from people who work

in these fields is they need a smooth transition from the system we

have now to the one in the future so I don't envisage rapid or clinking

changes of here to gear in how we employ those, but there will be

levers the Welsh Government in the future has in its hands. A sensible

person in my position will wait to see the circumstances they face much

closer to the time before deciding how to use them. You will know in

the election manifesto ahead of me's assembly elections you committed not

to increase income tax, is that still your guarantee for this

assembly term at least? I don't see them circumstances in which income

tax rates will vary in the early period we get these powers come if

we get them, we haven't even got the power is as yet, we are speaking

about some fairly remote contingencies. If income tax varying

powers come to Wales in early period quite certainly we will take

precautionary approach to their use but any Government would to reserve

the right to weigh up all the circumstances we faced at the time

you face them. But not in this assembly? Not until after the next

election? I wouldn't envisage it. Another element of uncertainty is we

have the Autumn Statement, next year the Government plans her day was

spend over the next few years, why didn't you wait until you know what

will come then before announcing this year's budget? I'm bound by the

rules of the National Assembly for Wales, there is a timetable of

standing orders. He waited last year, the budget was little last

year, why not do the same this year? We made a commitment to stick to

timetable that allows the assembly and its various committees to

scrutinise our budget and do it according to the timetable that

gives them the time they need to do that, although they would have been

advantages in which into the 23rd of November it would have squeezed

those timetables very radically, I did not want to be in that position.

You might have to change it now with Philip Hammond comes out and says

anything major you might have to change again? Had to make a judgment

as to what we might expect in the Autumn Statement, I laid a four-year

capital budget because if there are signs out of Whitehall it might be

there will be some booze to infrastructure spending and

therefore all I would do is add to the ability of Cabinet colleagues to

build on what they already know. We found out today Hamide Kurt us will

get, slightly up and some slightly down but inflation is taken into

account, they are all down. -- how much each council. There is still

cut the head. What would you sit any council thinking of increasing

council tax? The are to you my message to them, we have been able

to provide an 18 month period of relative stability to our public

services including local Government but there are more difficult choices

and more difficult times ahead and they must use this period of

stability to prepare for that, they must think it is a period to sit

back and have a breather because for one year things are less awful than

they have been, they must use this period purposefully. In terms of

council tax I expect them to weigh up what I know are some competing

priorities, they must make a contribution to public services

through the council tax and think of those high prices and is the have to

bear the burden. Thank you for your time this evening, letters of us.

That was the finance secretary a short while ago.

If you'd like to get in touch with us about what's been discussed

tonight or anything else, email us at

[email protected], or follow us on social media,

We'll leave you now with some poignant images from Aberfan,

taken in the aftermath of the disaster by American

Half a century on the pain of Aberfan and the injustice suffered

not forgotten. Everyone's living these

amazing lives, You're like a...

Different person?