12/10/2016 The Wales Report

Testing times ahead for Welsh schools and

We speak to the Education Secretary, Kirsty Williams.

what role for Wales in trying to settle the UK's

And the harsh reality of prostitution in towns and

would decriminalisation make sex work safer?

People judge us. They say because we are street workers, we are this or

that. We're not all the same. Good evening, and welcome

to the Wales Report. Does education in Wales

pass the test? How could our schools

and universities do better? You can join our discussion

tonight on social media Well, the woman in charge,

the Liberal Democrat Kirsty Williams, takes

on the role of Education Secretary at a time of very

big decisions ? higher education funding,

a new curriculum, and how to improve Wales's performance

in the international So, it's a pretty full

in-tray for the Education Secretary, and we'll hear

from Kirsty Williams in just But first, let's take

a look at some of the The only Lib Dem in Government,

Kirsty Williams faces vital decisions about the future of our

schools, colleges and universities. First up, higher education. Last

month, Professor Ian Diamond delivered his recommendations for

how universities in Wales should be funded, and the sector seems to

think it is just what is needed. It has been long in gestation, the

report. I think it is positive for students, applicants, who will be

the students of the future, and for their families as well, and for

Wales, because it is important that we have a fair system of support for

students who come from Wales, and it's important that universities in

Wales are well funded, to the degree that allows them to play their part

in the future of this country. Next, schools and the new PISA rankings in

December. Wales's results started badly and have been getting worse.

Is improvement expected this time? I don't think they will be better,

they may be worse. If they are the same or worse, we have the radically

think about what it is that we have done in these last ten years. There

is no point in going on as we have in the last ten years if the

headline indicator we are all committed to shows you are going

nowhere. Yet another set of disappointing PISA results will be

sober reading for the first Minister. For more than a decade,

the Wales Government has tried to improve Wales's performance, with

intense pressure on teachers and schools. Local education authorities

have been placed into special measures, and regional education

consortia have been created to drive up standards. But some think the

problem for the education Secretary is far closer to home. The great

thing we have never tackled, as far as I can see, is to reform the

Department of Education itself. The OECD, who run PISA, were damning in

a report they published in 2014, saying the national Government, the

Wells Government, hadn't provided a coherent narrative for education in

Wales. We are feeling our way towards that. It would be something,

if Kirsty Williams wanted to leave office having achieved something,

would be to say, we have a clear, coherent vision for education. We

still do not and we are feeling our way towards it. We badly needed, but

if we don't get it, we won't improve in PISA and our students will lag

behind compared to other students in the United Kingdom. And there is a

warning to the Cabinet Secretary to reach out and listen. I think Kirsty

Williams has to tread carefully, because she can end up carrying the

can for 17 years of Labour rule. She has been -- she has to be very

careful about where she takes advice from. If she takes it from her own

department, she is only receiving the same as in -- the same advice as

her predecessors. She needs to make sure she is getting advice and

expert opinion from outsiders who will tell her things civil servants

won't want to hear. For an outsider brought into one of the most

high-profile jobs in Wells Government, the stakes could not be

higher. A radical new curriculum will be brought in from 2018.

Teachers will have to be prepared. Some are warning that the coming

years are make or break for education in Wales. I think there

are challenges, obviously, but it is a huge opportunity. I think if she

can connect with the Welsh teaching profession in may be ways that some

of her predecessors didn't, and if she can set the right emotional

tone, and if she can actually get teachers and the Welsh nation to

think that we need some kind of crusade here. To the Welsh and

well-educated as part of our history but not the case now. If she can put

together a crusade and put together a coalition of teachers and parents,

then it would be an incredible contribution to our future. Without

it, one fears for our future. Earlier, I spoke to the education

secretary, Kirsty Williams, in the Senedd. Huge challenges ahead for

you - how will you be different from your predecessors? It is a big

challenge, but it is an exciting one. I am ambitious for Welsh

education, for our children and for our teaching profession. I think we

are embarking on a new national mission that recognises that working

with the profession, with parents, we can make Welsh education

stronger, high attaining education system. For many years, we have

looked around the world for examples of good practice, and we will

continue that, to challenge ourselves against the best. But I

want us to be the nation that people look to to see what we have done.

Maybe you are referring to Wales or the Welsh Government. It is

intriguing how this works. You're the only Lib Dem in the village,

when it comes to the table. Are you trying to implement Lib Dem

education policy and a very different vision to what we've had

for 16 years? You yourself have been so negative about what we have had

for the past 16 years. When I say we, I mean Welsh Government, but I

also mean the teaching profession. I am clear that we cannot change

education from the fifth floor office of the Welsh Government

building. We need to create a coalition between Welsh Government,

those in local education authorities and regional consortia, who are

charged with school improvement, working with head teachers, teachers

in the classrooms, and parents. It is only by working together to share

that national mission of high standards, getting the basics right

in our schools, that we will make a difference. And yes, being the only

Liberal Democrat creates a new dynamic. Let's be clear, when I

wasn't in the Government, my party prioritised education spending in

our budget, and only recently, we have seen the gap between the

performance of our poorest children closing. It is a noble aspiration,

but I'm trying to get out what is going to change now that we have a

Lib Dem in charge of education. We will have a new vision, which the

OECD called for, which sets out our strategic ambitions for our

education system. We will have a relentless focus on standards,

looking at how we improve our initial teacher training so that

those coming into the profession have the skills they need. New

professional standards for teachers as a whole, ensuring they have the

opportunity to constantly improve. What about money, then? Can you

guarantee the money? Next week, we will hear about cuts in the budget,

and educational have to be cut, it? Next week, we will see a challenging

set of financial circumstances that the Welsh Government find themselves

in, so we will be ensuring that the money that is available to me as

Cabinet Secretary for education is spent on those priorities. So,

additional resources I hope we will see for school improvement in the

budget, a continued commitment to the pupil depravation grant. But

what will you cut? You will have to cut something. We will have to see

how the budget is published, but I am clear that we need to use the

resources available to do what we need to do, to fulfil that national

mission. So, reforming teacher training, additional resources for

school improvement. Let's talk about school improvement. You're not

expecting good PISA result in December, you have said that. Do you

not expect any improvement? The test that were taken last year, we have

to accept, have taken place at a time when we are in a process of

changing and reforming the system. When the OECD came and wrote a very

challenging report, damning in many ways about the state of Welsh

education, they said it would take a number of years for reforms to bed

in. What I want to do, because the PISA results in the past have not

been good enough, but I am not sitting back just waiting for this

next set of PISA results to be published. I have invited the OECD

's comeback to Wales, to examine the programmes we are implementing and

the policies I want to take forward, to make sure we have that rigour and

challenge from not just within the civil service but outside, that they

are the bright programmes we need. Anyone who knows anything about

education will tell you, the reforms we are undertaking will take some

time to bed in. Which is what your predecessors used to say. When the

last set came out in 2013, you deleted I am really sad and angry

that 14 years of Labour policy has led us to these PISA results.

Because they are not good enough. Let's look to 2019. You will have to

deliver better results. Will you make PISA a priority for teachers as

well? That has been a problem, that perhaps teachers aren't focusing on

PISA the way that Government is. They are getting on with GCSE? And

some might even see PISA as a distraction. Will you tell them they

have to take PISA more seriously? We have been clear that PISA is an

important way in which we can benchmark ourselves against the rest

of the world, and I want to see us make improvements in our PISA

performance. I don't now say that our PISA performance has been good

because I am the Cabinet Secretary. I have the opportunity to make the

changes to make sure we don't find ourselves in that position in the

years to come, and I am focused on that, improving standards, creating

a curriculum that actually gives our young people the skills that they

need to do well in PISA as well as a whole raft of other reforms which

were embarked upon. We have to be clear, we cannot afford, as a

Government, when we're changing education, to be changing every time

there is a bump in the road, dashing off in a different direction. Do you

think there has been too much change? Over the years, we have had

changes that have not been the right ones, not based on evidence about

what works. I think we have embarked now on a radical programme of

change. What the OECD said is that we do need that vision. I will be

making further announcements this autumn term about that strategic

vision, and then we need to stick to it. I am bringing the OECD back in.

Let's have a quick look at the Diamond review. You are minded to

accept all its recommendations and plough through with that, in what

kind of timescale? I am clear that I accept the principles outlined in

the Diamond review. It says clearly that we need to focus on the problem

is that really affect students will stop all the recommendations? We

have accepted the principles behind the recommendations, especially the

principle that it is upfront living costs that are the real barrier for

young people going on to study in higher education, something I have

said before the election and for many years. I am glad that Diamond

has agreed with that. So, we will have to now look at how we can move

from the principles in the report to a system that students can access.

Timescale, roughly? We have seen a go at -- we had to have negotiations

with the Treasury and the student loans Company. I hope to have a

detailed consultation and a detailed response this autumn. I want

something that can be fermented by 2018. Argue enjoying Government? --

that can be implemented by 2018. Argue enjoying Government? It is

good to make decisions and affect -- effect change. We will be reforming

the curriculum, it is a wonderful opportunity. Kirsty Williams, thank

you. grapple with how the UK

will leave the European Union, what does it all mean

for Wales? And how much of a say, if any,

will Wales have in the The Prime Mininster Theresa May

says she'll listen to the devolved administrations

but is adamant that the UK Government will

do the negotiating. So, what does the leader

of her party in Wales make of that? Before we hear from

Andrew RT Davies, let's remind ourselves of what

the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, told this

programme last week. What I have said is we expect to be

part of not what is happening but to be able to feed in what the UK's

position is. The difficulty we have is the UK Government has no real

idea of where it goes next. My greatest fear is that they will

focus on the City of London at the expense of other areas of the

economy. The First Minister, Carwyn Jones,

and his red line. The leader of the Welsh

Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies, was prominent in the Leave campaign

in Wales and he joins me now. More than three months now after the

referendum. What will Brexit mean for Wales? In means a strong UK

Government negotiating an UK's- making sure we get the best deal

possible. That is problematic because of

many of those continental partners up for election next year. There is

no clear direction coming out of the European Union as the they want. But

what we want is a trade access deal that gives us access to the European

market. So you want to remain in the single European market. You want

soft Brexit? We want access to the European market. How that will look

will come out in negotiations. What we found out as the article 50 will

be invoked in the early part of next year and then there is a two-year

window for those negotiations to take place. But it would be wrong to

go into those negotiations, saying you cannot do this or that. But you

will first in the books in terms of leaving. Do you want the UK to be

part of the single market? I want them to make the decisions in the

parliaments and assemblies of the UK. This is an important

consideration. What we need to do now in the negotiations is securing

the best impossible for British exporters, both to the European and

global market. We know the issues and we

know as a party, you seem divided. Those want hard Brexit, which is the

one to be like America, Bondo sorts of terms, and those who want soft

Brexit, they want to remain in the single European market, and if that

means the freedom of movement of people, so be it. I disagree that we

are a divided party. There are many views within your party. There are

many views within all political parties. Everyone is united about

getting a deal that allows Britain to continue to trade with Europe,

and that will have some restrictions on the movement of people, so that

will have consequences. The First Minister admits that. What about

you? I have said all along there will have to be restrictions on the

free movement of people. I believe immigrants make an improvement and

benefit the English and Welsh society but I respect the view that

immigration was a real issue the electorate want politicians to

respond to. The First Minister suggested freedom of movement of

workers, how would that work? The issue for the First Minister is, he

had a protocol which he came up with. He has moved from that now the

goods and services rather than people. He then wanted article 50

invoked as soon as possible. Let us talk about you in your position.

From the Welsh government point of view, it is very difficult to

understand what they want going into these negotiations. But I have said

we have to respect the electorate, there will have to be certain

conditions on the movement of people in an out of the United Kingdom, but

we must make sure that does not harm the UK economy. What does Theresa

May want? She wants a deal but respect the views. They want the UK

to renegotiate their place in the world. Our place in the world is the

a competitive dynamic economy trading globally. She keeps telling

us she wants to give us a running commentary. Did she give you one? I

have an excellent relationship with her and her team as I do with the

Secretary of State and that is heartening but it is right the Prime

Minister does not give a running commentary. I am just wondering how

involved you are personally at the top table of these Brexit talks. I

am involved working with the Secretary of State in the Prime

Minister's team but I know she is reaching out to be devolved

administrations as well. But these negotiations would be over a period

of time and the UK Government is taking the right approach by mapping

at how they would go about those negotiations. Like the First

Minister did in the early days after the referendum. We will have to wait

and see on the single market. In terms of the money, we remember that

big bus. Do you expect or that the comeback? We spend ?18 billion by

being members of the European Union. That money is available to a UK

Government to spend as it sees fit. There is talk now of perhaps the UK

paying something in, not to the EU perhaps but to a fund, just to keep

access to the single market. You would rule that out? That money is

British money. It is up to the British government how it wants to

spend it. If it believes it spends money to be a member of the club,

that might be a consideration. We live in a democracy. The government

is elected by the people and if it decides it wants to spend the money

that way, it can. If it was the spend all that money on the NHS, it

can. If it wants to parcel that money up, it can do that. That is

what democracy is about. You really want to do this. Are you living the

dream? It is not about living the dream but what is in the best

interest of the people of Wales in the UK. Unequivocally, the best

interests of this country is served by being a strong independent

country standing on its own two feet. Rather than part of a club

that is in decline in economic, socially and culturally.

Should prostitution be decriminalised?

Well, members of the Home Affairs Select Committee at Westminster

think the laws in England and Wales need radical change.

They believe that soliciting sex should no longer be

They've looked at laws in various parts of Europe.

Northern Ireland and France, for example, have adopted

the so-called Nordic model where the person paying for sex

This is the story of one women, told by an actor to protect her identity.

It is very scary becoming a street worker. You do not know who you will

meet from day-to-day. Some nights, I finish as late as 5am. My friend got

me into it. She worked at a parlour. I was there with her when she said,

do you want to come to work? And I ended up with the job. She did not

want me sitting around the flat! The parlour was more working men, office

men. But I lost my job because I had an argument with one of the girls.

She thought she could run me down site for her in her place. I met up

with Daniel. He introduced me to life on the beat. He was a big drug

user. I have to help him with his habit. If I do not get money quick

enough, he would not be happy, he would become ill because he needs

his fix. One day, I said, I do not want to go out any more, so he

kicked me in the face and said, you know I need to get money. It cost

?420 a week, ?60 a night, his heroin addiction. That is a deposit on a

flat. I was almost raped the other night. Upon the wanted business. The

only paid for half and I decided, that's enough. He was insistent. I

was not going home. He tried to take sex of me. Luckily enough, I got

away from him. There was another guy. I was thrown out of a moving

car on a cold winter's night, freezing cold, left in the woods. If

it was not deliver a lady, I do know how I would've got home. People

throw things out of cars, shouting, how much? Then they just drive off.

I hope one day those girls are never in the situation. You do not know

the situation behind things, so keep your mouth shut. People judge us.

They think because we are street workers, we have this or that. But

we are not all the same. We are all different. We have all got different

story to tell. I'm joined now by Bernie Bowen

Thomson from the organisation Safer Wales, which helps women

working on the streets, and Carrie Mitchell, who represents

the English Collective of Prostitutes, which

also covers Wales. Bernie, as we saw from that film,

there is no such thing as a typical sex worker, and you come across an

awful lot in Wales, we are talking 2500 working in that industry in

Wales. The most recent research shows that. I can speak about the

women we work with through our street live service. We work with

hundreds of women, the majority of whom are working on the streets. How

did they fall into prostitution? Is there some common factor? It does

vary. Some research we undertook a few years back now showed that some

of the women who we worked with had been sexually exploited his

children. The had faced significant levels of trauma and exploitation

and that carried on into adult hood. Carry, there is a report which says

it should be decriminalised. Is that the answer here? It is one of the

answers. The Home Affairs Select Committee, a very prestigious

Parliamentary committee, has come out with a very important report,

part of which recommends that soliciting no longer be an offence.

Most women who work on the streets have a record and that makes it

almost impossible to get another job because once you present to an

employer and they find you have a record under sexual offences, it is

almost impossible then to leave, so you are stuck on the street. Bernie,

how would criminalising the customer and decriminalising the person

selling the sex worker, how would that make their life safer? We do

not want to see women who are sex working, we did not want to see them

criminalised. What is important is we look across how we can support

women across a whole number of areas, mental health, substance

issues housing. The women we work with and

support have significant problems, huge difficulties and complex needs.

It is not as simple as looking at it through a lens through criminal

justice. We need to improve the lives of these women and help them

make real choices and address some of the traumas they have

experienced. It is the oldest profession you could argue, it will

always be around. Is the idea of criminalising going to drive it

further underground? Criminalising clients come in Sweden where they

have done that, particularly on the street, it has made it more

dangerous because clients are nervous, women have no time to check

out clients, attacks have gone up, women are saying it is more

difficult and dangerous now. On the question of decriminalisation, they

have done that in New Zealand. It has made it safer. There has been

increased in prostitution, women are able to come forward now and report

attacks to the police, said that has made big difference.

If you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email us

at [email protected] or follow us on social

media - #TheWalesReport. We'll be back next week.

I'll never ever forget. It's as vivid as if it was yesterday.