25/01/2017 The Wales Report


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25/01/2017

In a week where Brexit is dominating the headlines, the Wales Report is back with a special programme. Huw Edwards speaks to first minster Carwyn Jones about Wales's Brexit plan.


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Tonight in a new season of the Wales report: the National Assembly will

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not have a formal say in the start of the Brexit process. So, how will

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a Welsh interest to be safeguarded in the years to come? We will be

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hearing card bay talking to Carwyn Jones and asking for his vision for

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Wales outside the European Union. Stay with us.

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Good evening. And welcome back to the Welsh Report. This place, the

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National Assembly for Wales will not have a formal say in the start of

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the Brexit process. The UK Supreme Court has decided that that is a

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matter for both houses of parliament at Westminster. There is no legal

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requirement to get the approval from Cardiff or Edinburgh or Belfast.

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This week, Welsh Labour, Plaid Cymru, the Lib Dems, launched her

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own White Paper on Brexit. They are calling for full, unfettered access

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to the single market. How realistic is that? In, we will ask Carwyn

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Jones for his vision of Wales outside the EU. Don't forget, you

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can join in the debate on social media. The hashtag is the Wales

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report. First, let us look at the next steps in this rather tricky

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process. Who needs to go to the theatre when you have the ongoing

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drama of Brexit? On Monday, the First Minister and leader of Plaid

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Cymru took centre stage with a white Paper setting out the Welsh Brexit

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plan. At the heart of this plan is the importance of full and

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unfettered access to the single market for our businesses and our

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economy. 24 hours later, a ruling from the Supreme Court and MPs from

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Westminster will have a vote on triggering Article 50 to leave the

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EU. But this place will not be consulted. The court unanimously

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rules that UK ministers are not legally compelled to consult the

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devolved legislatures for triggering Article 50. So no officials say for

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the Assembly on the triggering Brexit. And they plan at odds with

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the Prime Minister's. Theresa May made it clear last week that

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membership of the single market is off the agenda. It will be White

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Paper have any effect on the Brexit battle ahead? We have structures in

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place to listen, but whether or not politically that will result in and

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out, that takes seriously the requirements that Wales and Scotland

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have put forward around remaining in the single market, I think there is

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some doubt to that. And there are those who say the First Minister is

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not facing up to the reality of post-Brexit Wales. I don't think

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Carwyn Jones would have ever taken any notice of the Leave campaign

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even though their constituencies voted to do so. They could have

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reached out and bought a consensus. In fact, in Carwyn Jones's opening

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paragraph, you said we've tried to table of leave and remain opinion on

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board. I know precious few Leave campaign as he has bothered to

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engage with. What next in this unfolding drama? Is the First

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Minister's voice so far offstage it cannot be heard? The First Minister

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is with me now. For lots of people, the Supreme Court verdict was a big

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victory for Parliamentary democracy at Westminster. But not such good

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news for people in Cardiff and in Edinburgh and Belfast. How do you

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see it? The keywords where we are not legally compelled to be

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consulted. The Constitution, we are. They depends on what the bill says.

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To be clear, there will be a vote in the Assembly on Article 50 members

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will their views. But we know from the Supreme Court judgment that we

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have some clarity in terms of what is legally expected and what is not,

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but constitutionally, that's a different matter. If you are taking

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a brutal of view, the votes could go either way in the Assembly, but

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there's no obligation for ministers at Westminster to take any notice.

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Politically, there is. The UK is a precarious position. I've warned

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against the UK the EU and its potential collapse. The process and

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deal itself must have the widest possible support across the UK.

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Ignore the Celtic nations is to me, a recipe for this unity in years to

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come. I don't want to see that. You must be disappointed the Supreme

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Court said, as you just quoted, that there was no legal requirement,

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because lots of people are hoping that condition would be part of the

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ruling. When you heard that, were you disappointed? What the Supreme

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Court did was say, look, external relations, foreign relations are a

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matter for the UK Government. So there's no requirement to console

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devolved legislatures. But if the bill itself does impinge on the

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rights and responsibilities of the devolved assemblies, that's a

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different matter. We need to see what it says. Regardless, there will

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be a vote in the Assembly, personally, we have to take into

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account the way people voted in Wales. I do not want to delay what

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is going to happen, which is that the UK will leave the EU, but it's

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important the process is done in such a way that is the least harmful

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to Wales and Britain. So, you are saying you did not find the ruling

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than expected, but were you disappointed? Yes. From our

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perspective we took the view that were the UK and Parliament wanting

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to change the law, then it affects Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

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and the devolved responsibilities we have amended our consent. If the

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bill is detailed and clearly impinges upon the rights of the

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people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, then the view may

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change. But until we see the bill, we will have to wait and see what

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journey we take. What do you make of the tone coming out of Westminster

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on this? It is allied to a message that says, this is a matter for the

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UK Parliament? It is not a matter, this process, for Wales and

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Edinburgh and Belfast. That is the message repeated all the time. You

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can talk in positive ways about getting the Welsh voice heard, but

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if that's the message from there, it's not encouraging. Rider that the

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UK Government want to go into negotiations with the EU. Is not

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what I start from, I want to get to a position where we can agree common

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terms of reference and a common strategy. That will help the

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Government in London. Ultimately, when the final deal is agreed, it

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doesn't need to get support from across the UK. Farming and

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fisheries, for examples. UK doesn't exist as far as farming of a shift

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-- fishes are concerned. We can't have the UK negotiating a settlement

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on those things where they are acting as the English Government. So

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there is a role for the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government

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and the Northern Ireland executive in terms of framing the future for

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those areas. There is no UK or UK role in the future either. You took

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of a vote in the National Assembly on the beginning of this process, we

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know at Westminster that Labour is saying he does not want to be seen

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to be blocking Article 50 because it recognises the referendum result.

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Can I ask what you will descend your colleagues here in Cardiff about how

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they should be voting on the triggering of Article 50? I will say

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they can't block the process all look to overturn the referendum

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result. There's no going back from that. But we produced a white Paper

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this week and it gave ideas as to what the way forward should be. The

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response we have to that sometimes is, you fight in the campaign. It is

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not, it is the lever to keep fighting that, it is done and

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dusted. We need to move on from that. The debate is now about how we

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leave not if. That debate has enormous consequences. If it goes

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right, it's manageable. If it is messed up, the consequences for the

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Welsh economy for many years will be disastrous. What you say to those

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who say the White Paper was unrealistic? To talk about full,

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unfettered access to the single market. Nonmembership, access. You

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know that comes at a price on the price is freedom of movement. Watch

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your calculation? I noticed the Prime Minister said she wanted the

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fullest possible accents. -- access. There is compromise needed, but for

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me, what we have put forward is a system of freedom of movement that

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is tied to people having a job. So instead of a general right to move

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anywhere within the area of the single market, people can move if

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they have a job. If they lose it, a certain amount of time is allowed

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for looking for another and I think that is rational to approach it this

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way. If we don't have the system, I know when they are concerned about

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the current system, we moved to a new one. But I think that's much

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fairer. You listen to people like Angela Merkel and other European

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leaders, they all say the same thing. You can't really qualify for

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the system of freedom of movement. If you want full, unfettered access,

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as you do, you have to accept freedom of movement as they define

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it. It is not your qualified version, but their full version. It

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is not representative of the system is applied across the EU. Well, what

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you have to remember with freedom of movement is when the East European

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countries joined the EU, the UK had a different system to other

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countries. We imposed a moratorium. So what the rules say and the way

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they are interpreted two different things. The Norwegian system is

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perfectly sensible. It is not our system, and it does tie the ability

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of somebody to live in a country whether they'll be having a job and

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that is within the rules, we think. The UK interpreted differently than

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other countries. Even if it is within the rules, the Prime

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Minister's has said we don't want anyone else's model. She's used the

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Norway model as an example in the past. Freedom of movement to work.

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The UK can't have everything. There has to be compromise. There is a lot

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of posturing and outlining negotiating positions, but you have

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two choices to me, either sell in the single market, which is crucial

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to the Welsh economy, or you sell to control immigration we can't do

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that. There will be an open border with the EU. The irony is, the UK

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cannot control immigration without the support of the European Union

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because the open border with Ireland. There's lots of issues

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there that are not dealt with. Given the sensitivity around immigration

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which we saw with the campaign, and you reflect that and we've tried to

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explain your thinking on freedom of movement, do you think that even the

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qualified system you are talking about today is one I Welsh voters

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would find acceptable given the way they voters strongly last year? With

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the difficulty we have is we know what people don't want. They want

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out of the EU, that is decided. Wooden or people actually want. --

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we don't know what people actually want. Some people do want

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immigration, we can't win them over, their minds are made up. Some are

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convinced there are hundreds of thousands of people living in well

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some other countries, in fact, there are 70 9000. Bearing mind, one of

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the interveners in the Supreme Court case was representing 2 million UK

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citizens living elsewhere in Europe. Do they lose their access to health

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care? Even fundamental issues such as driving lessons, will they still

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be valid, or car insurance still be valid? Of course, they should be,

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these will take negotiation and agreement rather than being taken

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for granted as they have been because of EU membership.

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There is a blunt chin to be asked about, to what extent does the Welsh

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voice, your voice, can be properly respected? If you get a position

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where the UK Government has come to a view on the Brexit plan, you don't

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have to like it, maybe the leaders in Northern Ireland and Scotland do

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not like it, ultimately, in this framework, you have no power to

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change that position - does that cause you concern? I think the UK

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would be very precarious if that happens. There would be the danger

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of a Scottish referendum. We are already seeing difficulty in

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Northern Ireland. The UK is not in the strong disposition here. For me,

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the final outcome is, the UK gets a deal which is acceptable to all

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countries in the UK, and we can then move forward. If we look at a

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free-trade agreement, some people say we will have one with New

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Zealand. On the face of it, it is a matter for the UK Government. But if

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as a result of that agreement we saw New Zealand lamb being allowed into

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the UK with no quota and no tariff, that destroys the Welsh farming

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industry. I don't think that is a sensible way to look at politics in

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the future. We must get away from this idea that all power comes from

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Whitehall and Westminster. We share power across the UK. The Canadians

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do it perfectly well. And the most lasting settlement for the good of

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the UK would be the one which commands the most support across the

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nations of the UK. And the dominant nation being England, and the debate

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country as structured, whether people like it or not, lots of it is

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to do with English Conservative MPs and a Conservative governance at

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west Leinster. They are dominating the debate by force of numbers. The

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problem is that the debate has not been about what is good for the UK,

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but about reconciling tensions in the Conservative Party. And they are

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not the same thing. This is not an attack on anybody, this white paper

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is something to put on the table, to look through so that people have an

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idea of what we are thinking. It gets criticised by people who have

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no clue about what they want to do. If it had been a cross-party

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document, it might have got less criticism? Let's examine what the

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Conservatives did. When the white paper was about to be published, the

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leader of the Welsh Conservatives sent out a tweet saying, latest

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edition of the Beano. That's not very grown-up. And no time has he

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said he wanted to be part of a process to work out what the journey

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should be for Wales. Every time he stands up in the chamber and he's

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asked, what is your view, it is basically, whatever Theresa May

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says. We expect better than that from one of the major opposition

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parties. I have absolutely no idea what the Welsh Conservative view is

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on what should happen after Brexit. So I would suggest, to the

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Conservatives, why don't you get consensus within your own party

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before you start lecturing others? We have a Conservative leader in

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Wales who successfully read the mood in the referendum in a way that

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other party leaders didn't? He also said that he would be First

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Minister. He did not read that very well. Yes, he was on the winning

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side in the referendum, on the mood inside in the election. -- on the

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losing side. I do not detect that there is a surge towards the

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Conservatives in Wales as a result of. On this, they did not agree with

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us, that is the nature of referendums, they cut across party

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lines. Final point on this, and it is to do with the way that you

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manage I suppose the personal relationship with the Prime Minister

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and others at Westminster. URL Labour politician, you are a Labour

:16:57.:17:01.

politician in power, which is a rare thing in the UK these days, and

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you're dealing with a Conservative government. There must be tensions,

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and that might be a disadvantage to you in terms of how you can interact

:17:10.:17:13.

with them, is that fair? I don't think as in any personal tensions.

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The degree we are a long way apart of course. Theresa May is difficult

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to read, she does not give a lot away. I have had open conversations

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with David Davies. We can talk to each other. Politics obliquely is

:17:30.:17:34.

about people debating with each other. But privately, there have to

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be ways that people can sit down and talk to each other and find a way

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forward and that is the way we see it. This is not a party political

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battle, it is making sure that Wales and Britain prospers in the future.

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If we can find common ground in order for that to happen, I think

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that is exactly what people would expect us to do. That brings me to

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the next thing. It has been a very big week in terms of the governments

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of Wales. The Wales Bill has completed its Parliamentary stages.

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Forget we have lined up three expert witnesses if you like to give us

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their perspectives on what's going on.

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Well, I think it takes us forward much more to the kind of settlement

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they have in Scotland, where you have a broad range of legislative

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powers and also some taxation responsibility. And I think it is a

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good mix. In principle there are two sorts of

:18:35.:18:46.

things you could do. You could either cap the top rate as a revenue

:18:47.:18:51.

raising measures in the long run, and maybe encourage some business in

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Wales, or you could raise the basic rate if you wanted to, for revenue

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purposes. Those are the two strategies. Raising the top rates of

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income tax as a revenue raising measures doesn't make sense. And the

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reason is, we've got this huge open border with England, people move

:19:13.:19:18.

once every ten years on average, people work in England and live in

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Wales or the other way round, and it's just so easy to move across the

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border. There are some really important constitutional potential

:19:30.:19:33.

lying within the bill, particularly around alterations to the size of

:19:34.:19:37.

the Assembly, the number of constituencies, the electron system,

:19:38.:19:41.

the name, the age at which people are allowed to vote and so on. They

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may not seem exciting but we know that the National Assembly has

:19:51.:19:52.

serious capacity issues at the moment, assembling them has asked

:19:53.:19:56.

wretch in terms of their scrutiny. So this gives us an opportunity to

:19:57.:20:00.

at least look at that area of development. We know there needs to

:20:01.:20:05.

be a lot more done to make people will be Wales feel that having an

:20:06.:20:09.

institution is Cardiff is significant and makes a difference

:20:10.:20:13.

to their lives. Obviously, the success of government is how you use

:20:14.:20:17.

the powers that you have. And that would be the true test, whether the

:20:18.:20:22.

lives of the people of Wales were improved by these new powers. It

:20:23.:20:25.

will not improve things automatically.

:20:26.:20:37.

First Minister, is this Wales Bill a lasting settlement? No, is the

:20:38.:20:44.

simple answer. It does take us forward and there are things which I

:20:45.:20:50.

can welcome in it. For we were not treated in the same way as Scotland

:20:51.:20:54.

and there are still some issues which are outstanding in order to

:20:55.:20:57.

make the UK and Wales work better. Why were you not able to get into a

:20:58.:21:00.

position where the bill was in better shape? I think there is a

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limit to how much influence the Wales office has in the Welsh

:21:06.:21:09.

government. We met a lot of resistance from the Ministry of

:21:10.:21:11.

Justice, who did not seem to understand devolution at all. Other

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departments were fine. That is the nature of Whitehall. It is a step

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forward for Wales but it is far from being a lasting settlement. How can

:21:21.:21:24.

it be when there are so many issues outstanding, such as policing and

:21:25.:21:29.

legal jurisdiction? It is important that people realise how this changes

:21:30.:21:32.

things and how it might change their own lives. So how would you explain

:21:33.:21:38.

to people at home, what does this Wales Bill do in terms of changing

:21:39.:21:44.

life in Wales? It gives Welsh people control over this place as an

:21:45.:21:47.

institution, the way that it runs. If we look at areas like energy

:21:48.:21:50.

projects, where we will have to develop them to create jobs in

:21:51.:21:56.

Wales, to do with water, a very emotional issue in Wales, as we

:21:57.:22:01.

know. And other areas, for example, it will devolve a chunk of income

:22:02.:22:05.

tax. We are not looking to increase income tax in Wales, but it allows

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us to be able to borrow. Everyone else does it to pay for big

:22:10.:22:13.

projects. This gives us the opportunity to do that and to fund

:22:14.:22:17.

transport schemes, for example, which we know will make a real

:22:18.:22:20.

difference to people is lives. When you think about tax, very emotive

:22:21.:22:26.

subject again, income tax, and those powers, granting those powers is

:22:27.:22:30.

clearly very significant, it can allow you to do some rather dramatic

:22:31.:22:35.

things, just a penny on the basic rate will give you about ?180

:22:36.:22:39.

million to play with, which could be useful for the Health Service and

:22:40.:22:43.

other things - how likely are Welsh voters to see you starting to use

:22:44.:22:48.

those powers? 0 chance of that. We made a pledge in our manifesto that

:22:49.:22:51.

we would not alter the rate of income tax and any other bands in

:22:52.:22:57.

Wales during the course of this Assembly. Income tax devolution

:22:58.:23:00.

gives us the opportunity to create a revenue stream to borrow. Borrow

:23:01.:23:04.

prudently, not which you cannot afford to pay back. But it means we

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can fund transport scheme which could not be funded in Wales because

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they were in Wales, whereas England, Scotland and Northern Ireland could

:23:15.:23:17.

do it. But there's absolutely no chance of taxes being increased in

:23:18.:23:22.

Wales. The point about having a big open border with England,

:23:23.:23:26.

competitiveness, and looking not just on basic rate but at higher tax

:23:27.:23:31.

rates as well as both to you buy that argument? Yes. I think he is

:23:32.:23:35.

spot on about this. In fact if you raise the higher rate, you do not

:23:36.:23:41.

raise much money. Proportionately we have fewer higher rate taxpayers in

:23:42.:23:45.

Wales. Because those are the people who are the most mobile anyway. To

:23:46.:23:49.

my mind, increasing taxes in Wales is not on the agenda during this

:23:50.:23:55.

period. What would you say to the person sitting at home may be

:23:56.:23:57.

feeling frustrated thinking, we've got the Welsh government, they're

:23:58.:24:02.

gaining more powers, they can spend on things they think they would like

:24:03.:24:05.

to spend more on, but they're not using the powers, to the point of

:24:06.:24:10.

having them? The ability to borrow, that's the initial thing for me. The

:24:11.:24:14.

fact that we can then borrow against the funding stream that we have from

:24:15.:24:17.

income tax in order to pay for transport projects which are needed

:24:18.:24:21.

in so many parts of Wales. Does we could not do otherwise. If we look

:24:22.:24:31.

at the M4 relief road in Newport, we could not do it at all if we could

:24:32.:24:35.

not borrow money. We need to have access to that kind of money. Every

:24:36.:24:41.

other government in the UK has that. What kind of borrowing are we

:24:42.:24:45.

talking about over and above the borrowing that we would have talked

:24:46.:24:49.

about maybe 12 months ago? There's a difference between what we can

:24:50.:24:53.

borrow and what we should borrow. We have to service any debt. We are not

:24:54.:24:58.

Kulasekara we are going to borrow because we can. We have to take if

:24:59.:25:04.

you on what we think is needed and also what is affordable. And what is

:25:05.:25:09.

that? We are talking hundreds of millions, rather than billions. To

:25:10.:25:16.

be clear, this is not all the money to fund year-on-year revenue, this

:25:17.:25:20.

is about oil and money for specific projects which have a one-off cost.

:25:21.:25:29.

-- this is about borrowing money. But in your own mind, what is an

:25:30.:25:33.

acceptable limit on that kind of borrowing, half a billion, 700

:25:34.:25:38.

million, 800 million? Depends on the terms of borrowing. At the moment it

:25:39.:25:42.

is a good time to borrow money with interest rates so low. But it may

:25:43.:25:46.

not always be that way. We have to make and assessments, what effect

:25:47.:25:50.

would a possible increase in rates have on our borrowing, it is not

:25:51.:25:55.

possible to put an absolute figure on it. Less than 1 billion? Yes. Who

:25:56.:26:00.

are not going to borrow to the limit. That would not be prudent.

:26:01.:26:06.

But over half a million? Depends what the project is. If it is a

:26:07.:26:10.

worthwhile and affordable project, then yes, we would consider funding

:26:11.:26:15.

such a project. Practical things to do with the place that we are in

:26:16.:26:18.

today, the size of the Assembly, for example. Would you use powers to

:26:19.:26:22.

change the membership? I think that is a highly sensitive and

:26:23.:26:27.

controversial area. If we look at it from one angle, there are 60 members

:26:28.:26:32.

here, Northern Ireland has 109, even though they have half the

:26:33.:26:36.

population. Scotland has 129 members, even though it is not twice

:26:37.:26:40.

the size of Wales. But let's face it, saying we need more politicians

:26:41.:26:43.

is not the most popular stance to take. I think there is a lot of

:26:44.:26:49.

explanation which would have to be done if we were going to increase

:26:50.:26:53.

the numbers here to 80, for example. There is no doubt that the workload

:26:54.:26:57.

of Assembly members is huge compared to people in other assemblies. But

:26:58.:27:03.

that is not going to win the public over necessarily. You think it is a

:27:04.:27:08.

case worth making? I can see it from one angle in terms of the workload

:27:09.:27:13.

for members. But I am sensitive to public opinion and the last thing I

:27:14.:27:16.

want to do is to take a position as lead when we get the powers. We do

:27:17.:27:20.

not want to say in the first few weeks, we're going to increase the

:27:21.:27:23.

number of politicians straightaway. That would make us look ridiculous

:27:24.:27:28.

in the eyes of the people of Wales. A lot of work has to be done here to

:27:29.:27:32.

illustrate the people have ears and the works and whether they think

:27:33.:27:37.

actually, given that we might see a cut in the number of Welsh MPs, a

:27:38.:27:42.

tiny voice in Westminster, whether there needs to be an increase in the

:27:43.:27:47.

Assembly here in Cardiff. Would you be comfortable going into the next

:27:48.:27:51.

Assembly elections with the same size of chamber here? The strange

:27:52.:27:56.

thing is, when you're in government, you don't notice it in the same way.

:27:57.:28:00.

Of you're a backbencher, and you're on two or three committees are

:28:01.:28:04.

weak... I get a lot of support, as First Minister, it is the

:28:05.:28:08.

backbenchers who feel it the most. -- two or three committees a week.

:28:09.:28:12.

Are there enough members here to hold the government to account? They

:28:13.:28:20.

do it, but it is a struggle. So in five years' time? This is a part of

:28:21.:28:26.

the plate which we have to have... You clearly do not think that the

:28:27.:28:30.

system as it is is going to be as efficient in five years' time? It

:28:31.:28:36.

works, but it is under strain, that is the way I would put it. Will you

:28:37.:28:40.

be making the case for increasing the size of the chamber? What I

:28:41.:28:44.

would say is, we need more politicians. It needs to be part of

:28:45.:28:48.

a package around how the Assembly operates, and also we may end up

:28:49.:28:52.

with fewer MPs. I am not making the link. I would rather we kept the

:28:53.:28:57.

same representation at worse Mr. But these are the issues which will have

:28:58.:29:01.

to be debated over the next few years.

:29:02.:29:09.

I don't think that would do us a great deal of good. The number of

:29:10.:29:17.

constituencies? That is even more difficult. Even if you can get an

:29:18.:29:22.

agreement to having 80 members, you have to have all elected. All

:29:23.:29:25.

parties are different views on how to operate that. It is a tricky

:29:26.:29:29.

issue and would take a great of diplomacy. That's an understatement.

:29:30.:29:35.

The number of constituents come you've mentioned the voting system.

:29:36.:29:39.

On a personal level, can you foresee circumstances in which you will be

:29:40.:29:44.

making an argument for a different kind of voting system, allied to

:29:45.:29:47.

other changes around the Assembly in years to come? There were pamphlets

:29:48.:29:55.

years ago suggesting we should of 80 members elected first past the post.

:29:56.:30:00.

That was the case I made at that point. It will not be on that basis

:30:01.:30:04.

and I accept that. But it is a question of what sort of system we

:30:05.:30:10.

use, what the mix is, do we carry on with the regional members, these are

:30:11.:30:13.

all issues we need to look at carefully before the final decision.

:30:14.:30:18.

The voting age, lowering it. Would you like to take action? Yes, 16. It

:30:19.:30:24.

was 60 in Scotland in the referendum. If that is OK, is

:30:25.:30:29.

difficult to argue against the bingo cane every other election, so my

:30:30.:30:34.

point of view is that 16 in this day and age is the proper age people can

:30:35.:30:38.

vote. My daughter will be delighted to hear me say that. I'm sure she

:30:39.:30:46.

will. The answer to what you might changes I'm not sure or we will

:30:47.:30:50.

think about that. Give the impression you are giving that

:30:51.:30:56.

you're getting more powers, but are either reluctant to use them or will

:30:57.:30:59.

not use them because they are too risky politically. Is that the

:31:00.:31:04.

message people will get? We do not jump headlong into change for the

:31:05.:31:09.

sake of it. If you look at income tax, for me, the most important

:31:10.:31:14.

thing is we are setting up a new body, and it must be set up. It has

:31:15.:31:20.

to add Minister not just income tax, that transaction tax which will take

:31:21.:31:23.

over from stamp duty. We need to ensure it is up and running first

:31:24.:31:27.

bit for we make sure there were no glitches or problems. Family 's

:31:28.:31:33.

Tavern before we look at what happens after. Let us get the new

:31:34.:31:37.

system up and running and the debate is beyond the next election. A final

:31:38.:31:43.

point about national perceptions of the way this place works, not just

:31:44.:31:47.

the Assembly, but the Government. After all the debate about the Wales

:31:48.:31:51.

Bill, is there a healthier perception of the way that the

:31:52.:31:55.

Government here works now after the debate? Because the debate got

:31:56.:31:58.

bogged down in all kinds of issues which you are involved in and you

:31:59.:32:04.

know, at Westminster and here. What have that done for perceptions of

:32:05.:32:09.

the way the Government here is perceived? The first draft though

:32:10.:32:14.

they produced in Westminster was so awful that no one could support it.

:32:15.:32:17.

It overturned the referendum results. That's what they were

:32:18.:32:24.

trying to do in Westminster, overturned the clearly expressed a

:32:25.:32:27.

view of the Welsh people in 2011 that they wanted all the laws in

:32:28.:32:31.

effect in Wales to be made here in Wales. They try to overturn that and

:32:32.:32:35.

we have to go back to the drawing board and produce the better. Good,

:32:36.:32:40.

but not so good that it can't be improved upon, as we say. That's

:32:41.:32:45.

what we have to look out for. People in Wales proud to have

:32:46.:32:51.

representation and a Government, all the opinion polls show us that the

:32:52.:32:56.

case. We've moved beyond should Wales have a voice? Two how should

:32:57.:33:01.

that voice be exercised? First Minister, thank you. That was Carwyn

:33:02.:33:05.

Jones, talking to me a little earlier. That is all for tonight. If

:33:06.:33:09.

you would like to get in that about the programme or anything else,

:33:10.:33:14.

e-mail us. Or follow us on social media. The debate continues. The

:33:15.:33:20.

hashtag is the Welsh report. We return next week. Good night.

:33:21.:33:24.

Huw Edwards asks the questions that matter to you about your job, your health, your future. Calling to account the decision-makers here in Wales and beyond our borders too, each week the team bring you in-depth reports on pressing issues that matter to the lives of everyone living in Wales.