01/02/2017 The Wales Report

It's official - the Brexit process is underway.

We speak to Wales' voice at the cabinet table,

And protecting our past for future generations ?

could plans to create a new heritage body

Change is coming, but that change must leave our heritage

organisations with the expertise and cloud to be able to protect our

historic treasures. -- cloud. Good evening and welcome

to The Wales Report. So, the Brexit journey

has gone up a gear. Tonight, MPs voted with

the Government to get the formal A little earlier, two days of debate

on triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to start

that process came to a close, with a majority in favour

of starting official talks between the UK and

the European Union. The ayes to the right, 498, the noes

to the left, 114. So the ayes have it. The ayes have it.

So, they have had their say, and now you can have yours.

You can join in the discussion tonight.

In a minute, we will be speaking to Wales' voice at the Cabinet table,

Alun Cairns. But how far apart at the British and

world governments? Here's political

commentator Daran Hill. I think the British government are

in a difficult position. They don't have any legal right to impact on

the final decision, but in a moral and political reasons, -- there are

moral and article reasons why they need to be involved. It seems to me

that over the last few weeks, particularly from the point when

Theresa May set out their stall with the 12 points that she illustrated,

and then we saw clear white paper from the Welsh government in terms

of what they wanted, there is a lot less bluster around now, and people

can actually, hopefully, from both sides look to come together and try

to achieve what is best for Wales. Someone who was

at that meeting on Monday is Finance Secretary

Mark Drakeford. The First Minister for Wales again

emphasised our top priority is full and unfettered participation in the

single market, because that will have the greatest economic impact

here in Wales. The Prime Minister agreed at the end of the meeting

that there should be intensification of discussions of these matters at

the GMC that has been set up for this particular purpose. It is very

important from the devolved administration's point of view that

we get on with that work, we do it pays only -- purposefully, and that

the views we are expressing in that form are seen to make a difference

to the UK Government's negotiating position. I think we begin to hear

UK ministers use some of the language we have used in relation to

the importance of access to the single market, the fullest possible

access. The Prime Minister said the extent

to which the UK Government is prepared to make the necessary

trade-offs between single market access and other parts of the

negotiations is something we need to pursue with the remaining JNC

discussions. We say unambiguously that Wales must do no words out of

our membership of the United Kingdom than we have done out of our

membership of the European Union, and we will pursue that line of

argument throughout the discussions. The Finance Secretary

Mark Drakeford there. Earlier, I spoke to the Secretary

of State for Wales, I asked him how much of a voice

Wales and the Welsh government should have in those negotiations.

Well, Wales has got a strong say. I sat on the Cabinet subcommittee and

the Cabinet committee that will ultimately make the decision, but in

getting to that decision, or those decisions, there are the joint

ministerial committee, the one that the Prime Minister chaired earlier

this week, as well as the fortnightly meeting that David Davis

chairs. So I have the privilege of sitting on all of them, and on top

of that, we have the bilateral arrangements that I meet the First

Minister regularly, and talk to Mark Drakeford, leaving for the Welsh

government, too. But you have made clear this is a UK Government

decision. We know what the Welsh government

wants when it comes to, for example, the single market. They want full

and unfettered access. Will they get that?

Well, we want a free trade agreement, and I think the Welsh

government have recognised that their phrasing of unfettered access

to the single market is not inconsistent with the Prime Minister

and the UK Government's position that we want a free trade agreement.

So on that basis, I am confident that we can get a deal that works

for every part of the UK, including Wales. A manufacturer based in Wales

will have similar concerns to one based in the West Midlands or east

Midlands, and farmers based in Wales will have similar concerns to

farmers based in Cumbria or Scotland.

So you are saying that the Welsh government, we will get full and

unfettered access to the single market, your wording, I think, as a

government, is the greatest possible access. Is there a difference there?

Well, the First Minister has said that he doesn't see an

inconsistency. Do you think there is a difference? No, I don't think

there is a difference, because we want a free trade agreement which is

similar to that which Canada has got, which Mexico has got, but we

want one which is right for the UK, and on that basis, we will negotiate

on a deal that works for every part of the country and Wales being a

fundamental part. So that means freedom of movement,

doesn't it? If we have full and unfettered access to the single

market, we have two except free movement of people? Well, we want a

free trade agreement. Free trade agreements don't have the same

principle of the free movement of people. Immigration is a good thing,

but on that basis, we need to manage immigration appropriately to make

sure it works for every community in the UK and specifically Wales.

Well, these are part of the negotiations, so that is why we want

a free trade agreement, but membership of the single market that

some are calling for requires free movement of people, so on that

basis, we cannot be a member of the single market, because that would

mean remaining a member of the EU by some other name. So therefore, we

want a free trade agreement that would allow a Welsh business or a

Welsh farmer 's import and export to and from Europe. It is in Europe's

interest that our economy continues to grow, as well as in our interest

that Europe continues to grow. We went Europe to be a success,

although we will have a slightly different relationship. So to be

clear, we would no longer be a member of the single market, but

would have full and unfettered access to it, we wouldn't except

free movement of people, so there would be a cost. There would be a

financial cost, and we would be paying into the EU pot, wouldn't we

tee we have said that we want a free trade agreement. There will be terms

associated with that free trade agreement, and that's what the

negotiations are about. Me too outline exactly the detail terms,

because there are two macro parties to negotiation, and on that basis,

we want to get the deal that work for everybody in the UK. But the

Prime Minister has also said that no deal is better than a bad deal, so I

am optimistic. Let's just stay and contributions. It was a big part of

the referendum. People fed up of paying into Brussels, and what we

have had from is that we will no longer be making that contributions

to the EU. -- what we have had from Theresa May. Their words are that we

will not be paying vast sums, but will still be paying into the pot, I

will have to pay to get access to the single market. The people of

Wales want to know will Welsh taxpayers still be paying into the

EU pot, yes or no? I think you are reading between the lines and coming

up with a conclusion we simply have not got to. There is a negotiation

that will take place. Clearly, I want the best deal that works for

every part of the UK and I am at the Cabinet table. Clearly, but I am

just wondering whether you can give Welsh taxpayers, then, I guarantee

that they won't be paying into an EU pot? Can you give that guarantee?

This is part of a negotiation. I can't second-guess where we will get

to, because there is a long way to go with that process. I am

optimistic with our relationship with Europe. We want Europe to

succeed and we believe it is in their interest for us to continue to

grow. We have the fastest growing economy in the developed world, and

the fastest in Europe, and if you think back to the recession over the

last five or six, seven years ago, when we were at risk of a double dip

or even triple dip recession, it is the UK that drag Europe out of that

recession, so therefore I am optimistic that we need to get that

good deal that works through every part of the UK and every industry,

particularly in Wales. You are an optimistic Brexiteer.

Back in June, you were saying we need EU because the economy is built

around it, Tata depends on it, manufacturing and the automotive

industry depend on it. You have clearly changed your mind, and you

could argue you are following the Democratic vote, but personally, how

do you find that? How difficult is it personally to be doing now in

favour of something you very much opposed a few months ago? Well, we

have been given direction by the British people, but specifically, in

Wales, by the Welsh people, who voted to leave the EU. But I would

also say the same time, there were many independent and economists that

said we would be in recession by this stage. That is not the case. In

fact, the IMF has upgraded the growth projection for the UK. So

were you on the wrong side of the argument during a referendum? Were

you wrong? Well, I think when the facts change, and there is an

outcome of a referendum, you have got to act on that, and develop the

approach according to the fact that exist at the time. But do you group

regret the way you campaign? Know, at the time, that was the best

information we had available, but the public in Wales and across the

UK rejected that and therefore, we said that the referendum would be

binding and work on that, and that is what we are doing. Now, no land

grab has been said about the powers that are currently in Brussels, that

Theresa May won't be effecting any land grab of powers, and anything

that is devolved will be coming straight back to Wales. Is that your

understanding? And fisheries, and fishing, everything will come

directly to Cardiff a? That is the principal on the bases which we are

working. We want devolution. The Wales Bill has just passed,

extending the powers of the Welsh government and assembly extensively,

and I hope people would like the approach we took there to

demonstrate the approach we will take to negotiate in the accident of

the European Union and where there's powers will lie. I would also say at

the same time, we need to get the transitions and make the other

devolved leaders realise that the market within the UK works as well,

so state aid rules, for example, and there needs to be a framework that

will work for every part of the UK. So I am optimistic we can get to

that position. No specific decisions on individual elements have yet been

taken, because we don't know the form of a negotiation yet with the

EU, but we have talked about the principle that we want to devolve as

much as possible, we want to give as much flexibility to the devolved

administrations to act within the areas that they act at the moment,

but of course, we need to ensure that the UK market works as well as

the positives that come out of exiting the European Union or the

new positives, I would say, and that is striking trade deals with other

parts of the world. So at the UK Government negotiates with the parts

of the world, be that Australia or North America, for example, we need

to be able to command a negotiating position that takes all of the UK

with us. And on that, and free-trade deals

beyond EU, what will be the approach? Will it be a bit like

Trump, America first? Will it be Britain's first tee will there be a

Briton and a Wales which is more protectionist after Brexit? Is that

the model? You would expect any Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

to put the United Kingdom's interests first. Those are -- that

is the basis on which we are working. We want trade agreement

internationally. Lots of countries are showing interest in negotiating

with us, but the trade deal on the right terms that work for us as well

as for that nation. And I think there is a great prospect. The Prime

Minister has said she wants the UK to be global leaders in free trade,

but that is not to undermine any particular sector of the UK economy.

We are seeing as an open economy, we gain economic recognition for being

an open economy, and economic benefits as a result. Continue along

that track, it offers great benefits to Wales in the UK.

And relationships with the US will be crucial in trade deals. Let's

talk about Mr Trump. You would love to see him in Wales, you have said.

We think he is coming on a state visit at the moment. You would

welcome him in Wales? An invitation has been extended and

that has been received and accepted and we are working on that basis. He

will be welcome to the United Kingdom and Wales is the fundamental

part of the UK and that is the way we will continue to act. Were we

quick as the government to roll out the red carpet for him?

The best way to influence any world leader is to engage positively to

them. If you go back to last three, the Prime Minister went to

Washington, there were some concerns as to some of the comments that had

been made during the presidential campaign about the President's's

attitude towards Nato. But by engaging positively, the Prime

Minister got the 100% support of the president. The June oh Theresa May

new Donald Trump would make an announcement on the restrictions on

travel from seven Muslim countries? Metcher is made of those comments at

the time but since then I've I wonder she knew he was going to make

that announcement. She has made her position clear and

I have made my position clear that we disagree. The only way to try to

influence somebody positively is by engaging with them. So she did not

know? You are in the cabinet with her. Did she knows he was about to

make that announcement? The Prime Minister made it clear she disagrees

with it. I don't see the logic behind the question because the

Prime Minister has made it clear. The Prime Minister always acts on

evidence. It has been some confusion coming out of the State Department

about the details surrounding the statement. If she did know, I wonder

if she encouraged him not to go ahead with it. If she did not know,

what does that say about the relationship? Once she is out the

door he lands aid bombshell that perhaps she would have had like to

have knowledge of. Donald Trump is one of the most powerful leaders in

the world. We should engage positively with them. It is in our

interest to try to influence positively towards... For them to

understand our position. That is the mature way in which any relationship

works whereby you can say when you disagree with the policy, as the

Prime Minister has understandably said, but also you can try to

influence them, to win them around to see things your way. Given those

comments now, I went if you feel it would be wise to postpone the state

visit until next year, perhaps, or is it any much as soon as is of?

An invitation has been extended, that has then received and accepted.

On that basis the Times would be negotiated between the governments.

That is the mature way in which to engage. The more positive influence

we can have on any world leader is it good thing for the UK. If Wales

is part of the UK and this to have its own influence, I want to play

any part of it. The Brexit negotiations get underway. That is

at the time when the long torturous nights, discussing The Wales Bill

had come to an end. You must be glad to see the back of that. That is the

bumpy ride. I was confident The Wales Bill would go through because

it was eight good deal for Wales. That means any -based funding

settlement has been introduced. What that means is Wales gets additional

resource because of the special circumstances in Wales. You and I

will know that opposition politicians, labour, Plaid Cymru,

the Liberal Democrat and Conservative politicians have been

asking for this for over the decade. I was delighted that as Secretary

state for Wales, it was UK Conservative government that could

bring about in long-term fair funding settlement for Wales. They

are not my words, they are the world of Jeremy Hunt. -- Jeremy Hall firm.

Those politicians you mention are calling for a new settlement. This

doesn't constitute the end. Can you guarantee they will not be another

The Wales Bill? Powers are returning from the

European Union and many of those will be devolved as we have said in

terms of the principles as word approaching it. Devolution will

involve to the change in circumstances that take place, as

the economy demands more we will look at that. As the economy demands

may be different sort of devolution, where power goes direct to

communities, that is positive thing as well. We are not fixed in our

dears. This is lasting settlement that gives is clarity but it gives

the most fair, generous funding settlement is we have seen. Thank

you very much. So that's a look at the future,

perhaps, but what about our past? The Welsh Government

wants to introduce a new It would bring together

the commercial parts of National Museums Wales and Cadw,

an arm of the Welsh Government responsible for protecting

historic sites. The idea of a merger though has

caused great concern among experts, who believe it could undermine

the independence of our national museums and leave the

organisation as they put it What is it about Wales that is

unique, special and worth protecting? Heritage is incredibly

important to our country whose national identity has been

challenged time and time again by the march of history. It is how we

tell our national story both to ourselves and to the world. Stories

like the one that unfolded here in Monmouth where chartists were tried

for high treason following the Newport rising. To some extent, we

define ourselves by these events. So why is the heritage sector in Wales

finding itself put on trial? The numbers tell their own story.

Heritage sites attract 30 million visitors annually and contribute

?750 million to the economy. But we can't simply look at this in terms

of cold, hard finance. Heritage is too important to be left to

accountant. That is why decent proposals have left the heritage

sector reeling. The commercial operations of our main providers,

national museums Wales and Cadw could be merged into new

organisation end the umbrella title of Historic Wales. Most government

argued this would make the sector more robust. That may well be true.

The merger may leave is better equipped to pay for our heritage but

will it leave is properly equipped to protect it? Independence is

important here. The national museum operates at arms length from Welsh

Government and any effort to change that relationship would be without

precedent in the British Isles. No other national museum in the UK is

directly run by its government. And for good reason. Do you really want

politicians deciding which part of Welsh distillery are the right parts

to share with the nation and the world? Museums must not freely of

political control or their ability to tell the story of our history

will be severely compromised. Of course, we are in any time of

squeezed public spending and heritage institutions are not immune

to this and need to adapt. But there adaptation have to mean loss of

control? All the while, you can't escape the feeling we have been here

before. In 2014, the Welsh Government attempted to merge Cadw

with the Royal commission on the historical monuments of Wales. In

the face of huge academic and professional hostility the Welsh

Government caved on an unpopular proposal which threatened the

independence of our heritage providers. We seem to be in the same

position now. Have lessons being learned? Or our Welsh Government is

going against expert advice and the weight of opinion? Changes come in.

That change must leave our heritage organisations with the expertise and

clout to be able to protect our historic treasures.

The Welsh Government has provided us with the following statement.

I'm joined now by Sharon Heal, the Director of the UK

Museums Association and the Labour AM Jeremy Miles.

Thank you for joining us. Jeremy Miles, let's start off with

independence, the points made there. It is crucial. Why change that and

why involve the government in the running of museums?

The challenge is in the context of financial pressures to find the

model which preserves the institution 's ability to protect

our heritage but to extend their reach as far as possible. It is the

question of finding the right model for doing that. I does recognise the

model described in the film. What has been talked about is how the

institutions through new body, Historic Wales, can collaborate on

the commercial side of things they do rather than an institutional

merger which is the sort thing described. Is embedded danger that

if you merge the commercial functions that not only will you

create the new layout of bureaucracy, another tier of staff

and that will end up mired in as bureaucracy but also there is danger

you take the opportunity to control and develop that commercial income

away from the national museum and away from Cadw as separate

organisations? The presses have been obvious for some times. The

institutions have been collaborating to try and generate more revenue. It

hasn't happened to the extent it needs to happen. What about the

editorial independence of museums? Is embedded danger that perhaps

Labour government could stress industrial heritage come if we had

the Plaid Cymru government they could promote more nationalistic

exhibitions in museums. Nobody is talking about that model. But that

is the concern. It is possible to find the model which preserves as it

should the independence of the institutions but also enables them

to work together, to generate revenue. Take the BBC that you

having public broadcaster Anne Patterson is being compromised by

having eight commercial arm. -- and that hasn't been compromised. It

bring money into the Potter people can do what they like in museums.

That is misunderstanding of what the commercial functions of museums and

galleries are because it isn't just about who runs the cafe, it isn't

just about running the shop and retail. Museums have worked hard to

generate more income from those sources that it is also about

programming, exhibitions, it is about deciding about school visits

and community engagement. If you take away the ability of those

organisations to be able to determine that, you really disengage

them from their own future. That isn't necessarily what is on the

table. What is on the table? There is steering group where all the

institutions are represented and they are coming up with the model

which addresses all the concerns you are talking about. They are

participants in that discussions. Do you acknowledge the current way is

untenable? Or do you want the status quo?

National museums Wales have been at the forefront of leading

collaboration and partnership that not just collaboration and

partnership with the national organisations, collaboration with

their communities and that is the key and at the heart of what museums

should be doing in order for them to develop as they sustainable future.

No one is saying the status quo, even with the existing

collaborations is the way forward. Finally, when Lulu be getting the

reports? That's when will we stop it is intended to be early in the year.

And you both very much. If you'd like to get

in touch email us at Or follow us on social media

where the discussion continues. We'll be back next week.

Thanks for watching.