01/02/2017 The Wales Report


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It's official - the Brexit process is underway.


We speak to Wales' voice at the cabinet table,


And protecting our past for future generations ?


could plans to create a new heritage body


Change is coming, but that change must leave our heritage


organisations with the expertise and cloud to be able to protect our


historic treasures. -- cloud. Good evening and welcome


to The Wales Report. So, the Brexit journey


has gone up a gear. Tonight, MPs voted with


the Government to get the formal A little earlier, two days of debate


on triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to start


that process came to a close, with a majority in favour


of starting official talks between the UK and


the European Union. The ayes to the right, 498, the noes


to the left, 114. So the ayes have it. The ayes have it.


So, they have had their say, and now you can have yours.


You can join in the discussion tonight.


In a minute, we will be speaking to Wales' voice at the Cabinet table,


Alun Cairns. But how far apart at the British and


world governments? Here's political


commentator Daran Hill. I think the British government are


in a difficult position. They don't have any legal right to impact on


the final decision, but in a moral and political reasons, -- there are


moral and article reasons why they need to be involved. It seems to me


that over the last few weeks, particularly from the point when


Theresa May set out their stall with the 12 points that she illustrated,


and then we saw clear white paper from the Welsh government in terms


of what they wanted, there is a lot less bluster around now, and people


can actually, hopefully, from both sides look to come together and try


to achieve what is best for Wales. Someone who was


at that meeting on Monday is Finance Secretary


Mark Drakeford. The First Minister for Wales again


emphasised our top priority is full and unfettered participation in the


single market, because that will have the greatest economic impact


here in Wales. The Prime Minister agreed at the end of the meeting


that there should be intensification of discussions of these matters at


the GMC that has been set up for this particular purpose. It is very


important from the devolved administration's point of view that


we get on with that work, we do it pays only -- purposefully, and that


the views we are expressing in that form are seen to make a difference


to the UK Government's negotiating position. I think we begin to hear


UK ministers use some of the language we have used in relation to


the importance of access to the single market, the fullest possible


access. The Prime Minister said the extent


to which the UK Government is prepared to make the necessary


trade-offs between single market access and other parts of the


negotiations is something we need to pursue with the remaining JNC


discussions. We say unambiguously that Wales must do no words out of


our membership of the United Kingdom than we have done out of our


membership of the European Union, and we will pursue that line of


argument throughout the discussions. The Finance Secretary


Mark Drakeford there. Earlier, I spoke to the Secretary


of State for Wales, I asked him how much of a voice


Wales and the Welsh government should have in those negotiations.


Well, Wales has got a strong say. I sat on the Cabinet subcommittee and


the Cabinet committee that will ultimately make the decision, but in


getting to that decision, or those decisions, there are the joint


ministerial committee, the one that the Prime Minister chaired earlier


this week, as well as the fortnightly meeting that David Davis


chairs. So I have the privilege of sitting on all of them, and on top


of that, we have the bilateral arrangements that I meet the First


Minister regularly, and talk to Mark Drakeford, leaving for the Welsh


government, too. But you have made clear this is a UK Government


decision. We know what the Welsh government


wants when it comes to, for example, the single market. They want full


and unfettered access. Will they get that?


Well, we want a free trade agreement, and I think the Welsh


government have recognised that their phrasing of unfettered access


to the single market is not inconsistent with the Prime Minister


and the UK Government's position that we want a free trade agreement.


So on that basis, I am confident that we can get a deal that works


for every part of the UK, including Wales. A manufacturer based in Wales


will have similar concerns to one based in the West Midlands or east


Midlands, and farmers based in Wales will have similar concerns to


farmers based in Cumbria or Scotland.


So you are saying that the Welsh government, we will get full and


unfettered access to the single market, your wording, I think, as a


government, is the greatest possible access. Is there a difference there?


Well, the First Minister has said that he doesn't see an


inconsistency. Do you think there is a difference? No, I don't think


there is a difference, because we want a free trade agreement which is


similar to that which Canada has got, which Mexico has got, but we


want one which is right for the UK, and on that basis, we will negotiate


on a deal that works for every part of the country and Wales being a


fundamental part. So that means freedom of movement,


doesn't it? If we have full and unfettered access to the single


market, we have two except free movement of people? Well, we want a


free trade agreement. Free trade agreements don't have the same


principle of the free movement of people. Immigration is a good thing,


but on that basis, we need to manage immigration appropriately to make


sure it works for every community in the UK and specifically Wales.


Well, these are part of the negotiations, so that is why we want


a free trade agreement, but membership of the single market that


some are calling for requires free movement of people, so on that


basis, we cannot be a member of the single market, because that would


mean remaining a member of the EU by some other name. So therefore, we


want a free trade agreement that would allow a Welsh business or a


Welsh farmer 's import and export to and from Europe. It is in Europe's


interest that our economy continues to grow, as well as in our interest


that Europe continues to grow. We went Europe to be a success,


although we will have a slightly different relationship. So to be


clear, we would no longer be a member of the single market, but


would have full and unfettered access to it, we wouldn't except


free movement of people, so there would be a cost. There would be a


financial cost, and we would be paying into the EU pot, wouldn't we


tee we have said that we want a free trade agreement. There will be terms


associated with that free trade agreement, and that's what the


negotiations are about. Me too outline exactly the detail terms,


because there are two macro parties to negotiation, and on that basis,


we want to get the deal that work for everybody in the UK. But the


Prime Minister has also said that no deal is better than a bad deal, so I


am optimistic. Let's just stay and contributions. It was a big part of


the referendum. People fed up of paying into Brussels, and what we


have had from is that we will no longer be making that contributions


to the EU. -- what we have had from Theresa May. Their words are that we


will not be paying vast sums, but will still be paying into the pot, I


will have to pay to get access to the single market. The people of


Wales want to know will Welsh taxpayers still be paying into the


EU pot, yes or no? I think you are reading between the lines and coming


up with a conclusion we simply have not got to. There is a negotiation


that will take place. Clearly, I want the best deal that works for


every part of the UK and I am at the Cabinet table. Clearly, but I am


just wondering whether you can give Welsh taxpayers, then, I guarantee


that they won't be paying into an EU pot? Can you give that guarantee?


This is part of a negotiation. I can't second-guess where we will get


to, because there is a long way to go with that process. I am


optimistic with our relationship with Europe. We want Europe to


succeed and we believe it is in their interest for us to continue to


grow. We have the fastest growing economy in the developed world, and


the fastest in Europe, and if you think back to the recession over the


last five or six, seven years ago, when we were at risk of a double dip


or even triple dip recession, it is the UK that drag Europe out of that


recession, so therefore I am optimistic that we need to get that


good deal that works through every part of the UK and every industry,


particularly in Wales. You are an optimistic Brexiteer.


Back in June, you were saying we need EU because the economy is built


around it, Tata depends on it, manufacturing and the automotive


industry depend on it. You have clearly changed your mind, and you


could argue you are following the Democratic vote, but personally, how


do you find that? How difficult is it personally to be doing now in


favour of something you very much opposed a few months ago? Well, we


have been given direction by the British people, but specifically, in


Wales, by the Welsh people, who voted to leave the EU. But I would


also say the same time, there were many independent and economists that


said we would be in recession by this stage. That is not the case. In


fact, the IMF has upgraded the growth projection for the UK. So


were you on the wrong side of the argument during a referendum? Were


you wrong? Well, I think when the facts change, and there is an


outcome of a referendum, you have got to act on that, and develop the


approach according to the fact that exist at the time. But do you group


regret the way you campaign? Know, at the time, that was the best


information we had available, but the public in Wales and across the


UK rejected that and therefore, we said that the referendum would be


binding and work on that, and that is what we are doing. Now, no land


grab has been said about the powers that are currently in Brussels, that


Theresa May won't be effecting any land grab of powers, and anything


that is devolved will be coming straight back to Wales. Is that your


understanding? And fisheries, and fishing, everything will come


directly to Cardiff a? That is the principal on the bases which we are


working. We want devolution. The Wales Bill has just passed,


extending the powers of the Welsh government and assembly extensively,


and I hope people would like the approach we took there to


demonstrate the approach we will take to negotiate in the accident of


the European Union and where there's powers will lie. I would also say at


the same time, we need to get the transitions and make the other


devolved leaders realise that the market within the UK works as well,


so state aid rules, for example, and there needs to be a framework that


will work for every part of the UK. So I am optimistic we can get to


that position. No specific decisions on individual elements have yet been


taken, because we don't know the form of a negotiation yet with the


EU, but we have talked about the principle that we want to devolve as


much as possible, we want to give as much flexibility to the devolved


administrations to act within the areas that they act at the moment,


but of course, we need to ensure that the UK market works as well as


the positives that come out of exiting the European Union or the


new positives, I would say, and that is striking trade deals with other


parts of the world. So at the UK Government negotiates with the parts


of the world, be that Australia or North America, for example, we need


to be able to command a negotiating position that takes all of the UK


with us. And on that, and free-trade deals


beyond EU, what will be the approach? Will it be a bit like


Trump, America first? Will it be Britain's first tee will there be a


Briton and a Wales which is more protectionist after Brexit? Is that


the model? You would expect any Prime Minister of the United Kingdom


to put the United Kingdom's interests first. Those are -- that


is the basis on which we are working. We want trade agreement


internationally. Lots of countries are showing interest in negotiating


with us, but the trade deal on the right terms that work for us as well


as for that nation. And I think there is a great prospect. The Prime


Minister has said she wants the UK to be global leaders in free trade,


but that is not to undermine any particular sector of the UK economy.


We are seeing as an open economy, we gain economic recognition for being


an open economy, and economic benefits as a result. Continue along


that track, it offers great benefits to Wales in the UK.


And relationships with the US will be crucial in trade deals. Let's


talk about Mr Trump. You would love to see him in Wales, you have said.


We think he is coming on a state visit at the moment. You would


welcome him in Wales? An invitation has been extended and


that has been received and accepted and we are working on that basis. He


will be welcome to the United Kingdom and Wales is the fundamental


part of the UK and that is the way we will continue to act. Were we


quick as the government to roll out the red carpet for him?


The best way to influence any world leader is to engage positively to


them. If you go back to last three, the Prime Minister went to


Washington, there were some concerns as to some of the comments that had


been made during the presidential campaign about the President's's


attitude towards Nato. But by engaging positively, the Prime


Minister got the 100% support of the president. The June oh Theresa May


new Donald Trump would make an announcement on the restrictions on


travel from seven Muslim countries? Metcher is made of those comments at


the time but since then I've I wonder she knew he was going to make


that announcement. She has made her position clear and


I have made my position clear that we disagree. The only way to try to


influence somebody positively is by engaging with them. So she did not


know? You are in the cabinet with her. Did she knows he was about to


make that announcement? The Prime Minister made it clear she disagrees


with it. I don't see the logic behind the question because the


Prime Minister has made it clear. The Prime Minister always acts on


evidence. It has been some confusion coming out of the State Department


about the details surrounding the statement. If she did know, I wonder


if she encouraged him not to go ahead with it. If she did not know,


what does that say about the relationship? Once she is out the


door he lands aid bombshell that perhaps she would have had like to


have knowledge of. Donald Trump is one of the most powerful leaders in


the world. We should engage positively with them. It is in our


interest to try to influence positively towards... For them to


understand our position. That is the mature way in which any relationship


works whereby you can say when you disagree with the policy, as the


Prime Minister has understandably said, but also you can try to


influence them, to win them around to see things your way. Given those


comments now, I went if you feel it would be wise to postpone the state


visit until next year, perhaps, or is it any much as soon as is of?


An invitation has been extended, that has then received and accepted.


On that basis the Times would be negotiated between the governments.


That is the mature way in which to engage. The more positive influence


we can have on any world leader is it good thing for the UK. If Wales


is part of the UK and this to have its own influence, I want to play


any part of it. The Brexit negotiations get underway. That is


at the time when the long torturous nights, discussing The Wales Bill


had come to an end. You must be glad to see the back of that. That is the


bumpy ride. I was confident The Wales Bill would go through because


it was eight good deal for Wales. That means any -based funding


settlement has been introduced. What that means is Wales gets additional


resource because of the special circumstances in Wales. You and I


will know that opposition politicians, labour, Plaid Cymru,


the Liberal Democrat and Conservative politicians have been


asking for this for over the decade. I was delighted that as Secretary


state for Wales, it was UK Conservative government that could


bring about in long-term fair funding settlement for Wales. They


are not my words, they are the world of Jeremy Hunt. -- Jeremy Hall firm.


Those politicians you mention are calling for a new settlement. This


doesn't constitute the end. Can you guarantee they will not be another


The Wales Bill? Powers are returning from the


European Union and many of those will be devolved as we have said in


terms of the principles as word approaching it. Devolution will


involve to the change in circumstances that take place, as


the economy demands more we will look at that. As the economy demands


may be different sort of devolution, where power goes direct to


communities, that is positive thing as well. We are not fixed in our


dears. This is lasting settlement that gives is clarity but it gives


the most fair, generous funding settlement is we have seen. Thank


you very much. So that's a look at the future,


perhaps, but what about our past? The Welsh Government


wants to introduce a new It would bring together


the commercial parts of National Museums Wales and Cadw,


an arm of the Welsh Government responsible for protecting


historic sites. The idea of a merger though has


caused great concern among experts, who believe it could undermine


the independence of our national museums and leave the


organisation as they put it What is it about Wales that is


unique, special and worth protecting? Heritage is incredibly


important to our country whose national identity has been


challenged time and time again by the march of history. It is how we


tell our national story both to ourselves and to the world. Stories


like the one that unfolded here in Monmouth where chartists were tried


for high treason following the Newport rising. To some extent, we


define ourselves by these events. So why is the heritage sector in Wales


finding itself put on trial? The numbers tell their own story.


Heritage sites attract 30 million visitors annually and contribute


?750 million to the economy. But we can't simply look at this in terms


of cold, hard finance. Heritage is too important to be left to


accountant. That is why decent proposals have left the heritage


sector reeling. The commercial operations of our main providers,


national museums Wales and Cadw could be merged into new


organisation end the umbrella title of Historic Wales. Most government


argued this would make the sector more robust. That may well be true.


The merger may leave is better equipped to pay for our heritage but


will it leave is properly equipped to protect it? Independence is


important here. The national museum operates at arms length from Welsh


Government and any effort to change that relationship would be without


precedent in the British Isles. No other national museum in the UK is


directly run by its government. And for good reason. Do you really want


politicians deciding which part of Welsh distillery are the right parts


to share with the nation and the world? Museums must not freely of


political control or their ability to tell the story of our history


will be severely compromised. Of course, we are in any time of


squeezed public spending and heritage institutions are not immune


to this and need to adapt. But there adaptation have to mean loss of


control? All the while, you can't escape the feeling we have been here


before. In 2014, the Welsh Government attempted to merge Cadw


with the Royal commission on the historical monuments of Wales. In


the face of huge academic and professional hostility the Welsh


Government caved on an unpopular proposal which threatened the


independence of our heritage providers. We seem to be in the same


position now. Have lessons being learned? Or our Welsh Government is


going against expert advice and the weight of opinion? Changes come in.


That change must leave our heritage organisations with the expertise and


clout to be able to protect our historic treasures.


The Welsh Government has provided us with the following statement.


I'm joined now by Sharon Heal, the Director of the UK


Museums Association and the Labour AM Jeremy Miles.


Thank you for joining us. Jeremy Miles, let's start off with


independence, the points made there. It is crucial. Why change that and


why involve the government in the running of museums?


The challenge is in the context of financial pressures to find the


model which preserves the institution 's ability to protect


our heritage but to extend their reach as far as possible. It is the


question of finding the right model for doing that. I does recognise the


model described in the film. What has been talked about is how the


institutions through new body, Historic Wales, can collaborate on


the commercial side of things they do rather than an institutional


merger which is the sort thing described. Is embedded danger that


if you merge the commercial functions that not only will you


create the new layout of bureaucracy, another tier of staff


and that will end up mired in as bureaucracy but also there is danger


you take the opportunity to control and develop that commercial income


away from the national museum and away from Cadw as separate


organisations? The presses have been obvious for some times. The


institutions have been collaborating to try and generate more revenue. It


hasn't happened to the extent it needs to happen. What about the


editorial independence of museums? Is embedded danger that perhaps


Labour government could stress industrial heritage come if we had


the Plaid Cymru government they could promote more nationalistic


exhibitions in museums. Nobody is talking about that model. But that


is the concern. It is possible to find the model which preserves as it


should the independence of the institutions but also enables them


to work together, to generate revenue. Take the BBC that you


having public broadcaster Anne Patterson is being compromised by


having eight commercial arm. -- and that hasn't been compromised. It


bring money into the Potter people can do what they like in museums.


That is misunderstanding of what the commercial functions of museums and


galleries are because it isn't just about who runs the cafe, it isn't


just about running the shop and retail. Museums have worked hard to


generate more income from those sources that it is also about


programming, exhibitions, it is about deciding about school visits


and community engagement. If you take away the ability of those


organisations to be able to determine that, you really disengage


them from their own future. That isn't necessarily what is on the


table. What is on the table? There is steering group where all the


institutions are represented and they are coming up with the model


which addresses all the concerns you are talking about. They are


participants in that discussions. Do you acknowledge the current way is


untenable? Or do you want the status quo?


National museums Wales have been at the forefront of leading


collaboration and partnership that not just collaboration and


partnership with the national organisations, collaboration with


their communities and that is the key and at the heart of what museums


should be doing in order for them to develop as they sustainable future.


No one is saying the status quo, even with the existing


collaborations is the way forward. Finally, when Lulu be getting the


reports? That's when will we stop it is intended to be early in the year.


And you both very much. If you'd like to get


in touch email us at Or follow us on social media


where the discussion continues. We'll be back next week.


Thanks for watching.


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