22/02/2017 The Wales Report

Tonight on The Wales Report, I'm here in Westminster

In the week that Brexit has dominated proceedings here,

we'll be looking at what the latest twists and turns mean for Wales.

Stay with us for a special The Wales Report.

And fake news, who and what can you believe?

Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.

We're here in Westminster, where this week the Brexit process

has taken another step forward, passing its first hurdle

Remember, you can join in the discussion tonight -

So, the government's timetable for leaving

the EU appears on course, but what impact is Brexit having

The most optimistic production is the deal will take at least two

years and for the pessimists, it will take a lot longer than that.

I'll be speaking to the chair of the Welsh Affairs Select

But first, Welsh businesses are keeping a close eye on the progress

Wales exports more to the EU than the UK average,

with two thirds of goods that leave the country making

Wales is very reliant on trade with the EU.

We see a new ports around 56% of all exports go to the continent

and in Swansea and Cardiff, it's 60 and 61% respectfully.

So in terms of the number of goods and services that these

cities are sending abroad, actually the EU is a really,

It's about 20% of what we do as a company.

Historically, we've been moving goods backwards

and forwards to Europe over the last 30, 40 years.

Some businesses are telling us that they are finding

that their European customers are already starting to look

That is going to have a small effect now, but if that

continues after Brexit, then we potentially

Initially, we were surprised and nervous about the result

of the referendum and battened down the hatches, awaiting

what we consider to be economic gloom in front of us.

However, we have since employed more people, purchased more vehicles

to deal with the growing demands of our customers, following

It appears there is an improved export market in the UK

and our customers' order books appear to be full.

I don't think anyone is expecting the first day after Brexit

for everything to suddenly change, but it's going to be a gradual thing

where businesses won't be growing because they will choose not

to export because they don't have an easy way to doing it.

It depends what deal comes out of it with Brexit as to what happens

with the borders and what trade is available after that time.

Those goods will still need to move, exports from the UK will,

It means our vehicles will sit on borders perhaps

longer going into Europe, but I don't see that

If we don't get a good trade deal with the EU,

that does raise a lot of questions that has implications for jobs that

are available in those places and also the amount of money

that is available in people's pockets in terms

David Davies, the chair of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee,

we've heard in that little tape, there's a little bit

Is that how you would characterize where Brexit is going at the moment?

I wouldn't characterize Brexit as uncertainty at all.

I'm absolutely certain we are going to be leaving,

we're going to be triggering Article 50 at the end of March,

going to be out about two years' later and I'm also pretty certain

we're going to have a deal with the European Union.

But even if we don't, I'm absolutely certain we're

going to be carrying on trading with them, just as we did before

the single market came in place in the early 90s.

It was great to see that hauler there.

I was driving lorries and vans into Europe

before the single market came in and I remember we had a bit

Getting stuck in customs on the way into France and having to check

all your goods and bits on the way in?

No, bit of paperwork on the way in, that's all it was.

But I don't even think we'll be back to that.

What I can absolutely say is that we were trading before

we had the single market with the European countries,

we were doing in the 90s, I was driving vans and lorries

from the early 1990s to the mid-1990s,

before and after the single market came in.

I don't think anybody doubts that we'll still be trading with Europe,

it's just the terms under which we'll be trading.

I guess it's how much worse it will be than it will be now.

I heard someone on your video they're saying, 60% of exports

will go into the EU, 40% will go to places

with whom we don't have any kind of trade deal,

And yet 40% is a pretty high proportion.

The point is, of course we're going to carry on trading.

People were saying before the referendum, it'll be a disaster,

the economy will grind to a halt just with the vote.

That certainly hasn't happened and it's not going to happen.

Just as we currently trade with countries outside of the EU,

in fact our biggest trading partner is the United States,

we trade more with them more than with any country

But at a Wales level, as I'm sure you know,

it's actually Germany is our largest export partner, followed by France,

So actually, for Wales, we do turn towards Europe.

And we also import the huge amount from Germany, particularly cars,

but all sorts of other goods as well.

The Germans, I've been over to Germany since Brexit,

met with members of Parliament and met with business represented it

and they are desperate to ensure that there is a trade deal as well.

So it's in everyone's interest to come up with some sort of a deal.

What you think of what Theresa May has said, that if we can't reach

an agreement with the rest of the EU about it, then we'll just walk away,

leave you to your rules, and then what we do is we change our economy,

be more competitive, lower tax and attract business.

First of all, I agree entirely with what she's saying.

I hope we'll be looking to change our economy any ways.

I mean, we want to become competitive, we want

Well, yes, I'm in favour of lower taxes provided

we can balance the books, that's definitely a good thing.

If that's what we need to do to bring the boat in,

we've already been cutting taxes, we're already a much lower tax

economy than many other countries in Europe.

And I'm sure that's going to continue.

But what Theresa May is also saying is really,

We can't go into a negotiation saying, if we don't get X, Y and Z,

That's no way to conduct a negotiation.

What we have here, under those circumstances, is Theresa May,

an unelected Prime Minister, nobody elected her as Prime

Minister, fundamentally changing the economy of the United Kingdom

without any mandate to do so, all under the guise

First of all, Theresa May was elected, she was elected

as a member of Parliament, she's been chosen by a majority

If we want a presidential system, we can have one.

We can have a presidential system if people want

We have a parliamentary system and it's served us very well

But what's her mandate to cut taxes across the board?

She's clearly got a mandate to pull us out of Europe and hopefully

the Lords are going to recognise that and asked to do it at some

point and actually come on board with that and play a role in shaping

We're going to get the best agreement possible if everyone,

and that means Peter Hain and the House of Lords

and all the rest of them, if for absolutely clear

that they recognise that people voted for Brexit

and that we are coming out of the European Union.

The European Union and the other nations in Europe need to understand

that if we don't get a deal, if they don't want to come

out with a trade deal, we're still going.

Once they realise that, the impetus will be on them

to give us a good deal, a deal that works for all sides.

We don't want to cut ourselves off from Europe, we need

We want to carry on trade, have a good relationship

We want to continue to welcome people who are contributing to our

We've got to stop this ludicrous scare story,

that's never been put out by anyone in Brexit, that we're going to throw

out European Union citizens, because obviously we are not.

We've got to get people who were campaigning to remain

in the European Union to realise that the people have spoken,

just as I had to accept the Welsh Assembly 20 years ago,

people are going to have to accept leaving the European union.

We know in the House of Lords, what's your view

about what the Lords ought to be doing here now?

We know they'll be challenging on a lot of what the Government

My view is fundamentally they shouldn't do that.

They should understand that this goes...

Yes, this is a very short bill that gives the Government,

led by the Prime Minister, the power to negotiate the best

We don't want to go into negotiations with the European Union

thinking, if we deny them this or that, then they have

to change their minds and come back in with us.

They have to understand that we are coming out

Of course, we want to work with them.

The Lords need to come on board and recognise

Does it call into question the validity of the second chamber

I am your classic traditional Conservative.

I absolutely support the monarchy, I think the Queen is wonderful.

I'm a true blue Conservative and I've never really

But I am starting to think to myself, I looked around

the rest the United Kingdom, there's no second chamber

in Scotland, there's no second chamber in Wales...

I think the Lords can play a useful role in revising difficult

and complicated legislation, but this is very simple.

We are giving the Prime Minister the power to pull out

of the European Union, which is what the people want.

If the Lords want to start messing around with that,

I think it's not just going to be the far left that questions

questions their existence, it's going to be people

David Davis, thank you very much for your time.

The peers discussion of the Brexit bill this week has brought the role

of the House of Lords and the accountability of its

As the second chamber in the UK Parliament,

it helps make and shape new laws, scrutinises the work of Government

There are about 800 members, although not all of these regularly

Most are life peers put forward by the Prime Minister.

So, does their scrutiny of the Government over Brexit show

the need for calm heads to pour over legislation without the pressures

of elections, or does it highlight the democratic deficit

that the will of the people can be challenged by unelected

I'm joined now by the Plaid Cymru peer, Lord Dafydd Wigley,

the Liberal Democrat peer Baroness Jenny Randerson and

Thanks to all three of you for coming in.

Jenny Randerson - I guess, over the last week, what we've seen

is a different nature in the debate over Brexit in the Lords,

Is that because it's an unelected chamber?

I think it's because the power of the party is much less strong

People are much more likely to be expressing their honest and full

opinions, and also because, of course, peers don't have

to follow the local vote on this issue, or feel any obligation

to follow the local vote on this issue.

They feel an obligation to do what is our role.

Our role is to challenge the government and to ask them

to think again when we believe, and to challenge the Commons and ask

them to think again, when we believe they've

But we are in the situation we are in, and we're going to work

Dafydd Wigley, you've been campaigning almost

all of your political life to abolish an unelected House

of Lords, but here you are making a virtue of the fact that,

because you are not accountable to the voters, you can

The point is, if I was elected, if we were all elected,

we would have a much stronger stance in order to stand up on the issues

At the moment, many colleagues are feeling slightly blunted

I want to see a totally elected second chamber.

I believe in, a London context, there is a need for a second

chamber, but on an issue such as this, where we have very

strongly-held convictions, I think it's also right

that we don't sell out on what we believe, and what we've

But you would be saying, as an MP, about Brexit

Absolutely, and a few of my colleagues in the House of Commons,

Plaid Cymru MPs, voted against this bill.

That was because this is a very hard Brexit indeed.

If it had been a compromise, allowing a single market access,

then quite possibly we would have said,

But this is going to do so much damage to Wales.

Lord Peter Hain, you've said in the past that you will be voting

quite often against Brexit because you will be voting

with your conscience rather than reflecting the views

Isn't that the merit of having a second chamber, unelected,

where you don't have to worry about the will of the

Well, I have also always believed in an elected second chamber.

I'd settle for 80% elected and 20% crossbenchers

When Ed Miliband, my party leader, asked me to come to the Lords,

I said, "I don't believe in the place as it is.

He said, "That's why I want you to go there."

But on why I'm doing what I'm doing, two thirds of Labour

voters voted to remain, and of the many constituencies,

Labour-held constituencies, like my old one in Neath that voted

to leave, a majority of Labour voters,

Though they are the best evidence we've got.

In the end, for me, if you say, what is my mandate,

if you want to have a mandate of any kind, I feel I'm reflecting

the Labour Party's values of justice, equality

and internationalism, and that is a matter of conscience.

In an elected House of Lords, which you want to see,

you wouldn't be able to be free to vote according

You'd be far more closely tied in with the will of the people.

You say you want to represent the whole of Wales.

Yes, I understand that, but this is such a historic decision.

This, for me, is one of the biggest decisions

I've taken as a politician, about the whole future

This is a dangerous world at the moment, without getting

into all the arguments and re-arguing about the referendum,

this is such a seismic issue for me as a politician.

It goes to my very core of what I believe in.

And I'm not going to vote against something...

I'm not going to vote a way that I don't believe in.

When I was elected in 1974, I stood against my party's

When the vote came in 1975 in the referendum,

Yes, I told my collectors at home where I stood,

I had people coming to me and saying, "We can't vote

for you if you don't vote for capital punishment."

I said, "Then vote for somebody else."

The fact is, you have to stand on your party programme, yes,

All three of you are devolutionists, who believe in devolving

Yet what we have in the UK at the moment is an elected

assembly in Cardiff Bay, in Edinburgh and in Belfast,

with really no powers in terms of deciding how Brexit goes

from here on, and an unelected chamber here in Parliament

That doesn't seem to be right, does it?

Well, that tension isn't entirely right, of course,

but you don't put it right by saying, oh, the House of Commons

should just have a blank cheque to do what they want.

What we should be doing is ensuring - and I'm sure this will be a matter

for debate in the committee stage of the bill next week -

we want the Welsh government, the Welsh Assembly,

I, personally, would want the Welsh government to have proper channels

of communication with the UK Government, and it's essential

that the UK Government listens to what the Welsh Assembly says.

They really cannot afford to ignore what the elected representatives

of the people of Wales are saying on this issue.

One of the points you were making about the fact that you vote

Is there a danger, by doing that, you are a Labour peer,

are you undermining the efforts of your party trying to stand up

as a party who are not standing in the way of Brexit,

not ignoring the will of the British people, there is a danger that

you could be undermining those efforts, isn't there?

Well, I'm undermining the efforts of my party leader,

because I flatly disagree with him on Europe.

I think the majority of Labour voters and the majority of party

There's a lot of support in the Lords Labour group...

Those Labour MPs - voters may be one thing,

but they represent constituencies which did vote to leave.

There is an issue of a democratic accountability.

And that's why, in the end, the Commons will triumph over the Lords.

But I think we will win some important amendments,

We'll win the border issue, an open border

Why is the Tory government making such a fuss about this?

Why are they having a go at the House of Lords?

It's the first time in the history of Parliament,

that a Tory government has not had an automatic majority,

because Tony Blair abolished They are in the same

position now as all Labour governments have always been,

and that's why they're getting... Over the next couple of weeks,

what are you trying to achieve? What would you like to see

at the end of this Brexit At the end of the day,

I have to reluctantly accept that we are likely to leave

the European Union, but we have to make sure that for the Welsh

manufacturing industry, for the farmers and for everyone

else, that there is a total free That is at the core

of the Welsh White Paper, which Carwyn Jones, Leanne Wood

and with Liberal Democrat support That will be a good blueprint

for the UK Government, Well, I shall, along

with my colleagues, Lib Dem peers, we will be voting in order to ensure

that we stay in the single market if possible, and we will also,

above all, the voting not to ignore the referendum result,

but to ensure that, at the end of the negotiations,

the people have a voice. Because this started

with a vote by the people, and it must end with a vote

by the people. People voted to leave

the European Union, but they didn't vote for anything else,

because they were never At the end of this process,

when it's clear what the alternative is, I think there should

be a referendum. The people should

have the final say. Thank you all very much

for coming in this evening. Now, in politics, separating

fact from fiction has always been something

of a challenge. But with the growing

phenomenon of "fake news" ? that's false information

published under the guise of being authentic news -

there are fears that democracy itself could be

undermined, as well as Last month, the Culture,

Media and Sport Committee here in

Westminster said it would investigate concerns

about the public being swayed So, is our increasing use

of social media as a news source leaving us

vulnerable to hoaxers? Joining me to discuss

this are Kevin Maguire, associate editor of the Mirror,

and Elena Cresci, who works But first, here's Elena's handy

guide on how to spot fake news. It's an accusation that being banded

about a lot these days. And I think it's exciting

for all sorts of reasons. But we also have to recognise

that it has its drawbacks as our news feeds tend

to reflect our own views back at us and stories from reputable sources

are throwing together with... So, how can we find a foothold

in this new world of fake news, Here's my five step guide on how

to sort the facts from falsehoods, clarity from click bait and polemics

from otter poppycock. If you're unsure whether an online

story is fake or real, there are a couple of things

you can do. If you're willing to get

a little bit technical. When a new story pops up

on your feed, check the name If it looks a bit strange,

try googling the story and if it doesn't show up anywhere else,

that's when you got a problem. Also, be aware that some fake

news sites have names similar to real ones,

or even have a similar logo. First, is the story so outrageous

that you can't believe it? Second, is a story so outrageous

that you desperately Because of pesky human psychology,

prone to wanting our So if a story matches perfectly

with your already held opinions, you should probably take a moment

to check it's actually true. Always expect a new source to be

open with you about where There are perfectly valid reasons

for protecting a source's anonymity, but if a new site is cagey about

who or where they are coming from, Does the story to announce

the elite, the left, the right, Opinion pieces aside,

good reporting should be specific. Who was making a claim

about what and why? If it's asking you to make vague

assumptions about a group of people just because,

it's probably not worth your time. This is probably the most

important step in my guide. Make a point of checking

in with news sites that do not If you make a conscious effort

to seek out views you disagree with, you will be much better equipped

to spot when a fake news story is trying to play up

to your existing biases. The Internet and social media has

given us more access to news It's an amazing and

revolutionary tool that define But, like any tool, it can be used

for both good and bad things. And, as consumers and producers

of news, we can learn to use it We've heard your piece there,

looking at fake news, How worried should we be

about its existence? Well, there's been fake stuff

on the Internet for as long as there has been an Internet,

so I don't know, at this point, but it is concerning,

looking at what's happened in the States, where it seems

like fake news may have played But for me, even the term fake

news is just not a great I've been doing verification

for years now, which is why And when we saw a hoax,

we'd call it a hoax. When we saw someone had lied,

we'd say they lied, or they embellished,

or something like this. I worry, by having named it fake

news now, we have sort You see Donald Trump using it now,

"CNN, you're fake news. And I do worry a bit about that

section of it, I think. Is it, as a red top hack, something

which is an Internet phenomenon, or did it exist always,

it's just that now we've got the Internet, it sort

of exacerbates the problem? No, I think getting things wrong,

fake news, call it lies, They've been around for ever,

but it just spread so quickly now on the Internet,

and what people might have matted down a pub they can now

broadcast to the world. I thought your tips

were very sensible. We can fight it with accuracy,

with fact checking, calling it out, but in the mainstream media,

whether you're TV, radio or newspapers, I think there's

a greater onus on us now But isn't it a danger that everyone

can be a journalist on social media? An article you write

for the Mirror has almost the same level of accuracy,

for somebody watching or reading at home, as an article written

by somebody in their living room? People can publish and communicate

on the net now, and I think I think people have embraced forms

of communication we couldn't have However, the deliberate

attempts of hoaxers, whether it's doctoring photographs

or whether it is publishing lies, We saw it on both sides

in the Brexit campaign in Britain. Calling out fake news

and using that sort of element. Of course, we've always had this

trouble in journalism You've got to be truthful

all the time, and attempt to get to the truth,

but the fact is you can't always get the truth,

because you're not sure what it is. People aren't always

straight with you. They won't talk to you,

but you can be truthful. And if we can establish

that we are truthful, we can begin to see off

the fake news organisations. You will see studies that suggest

only 5% of people in Wales read Is fake news worse than no news,

when people aren't even aware I'm not sure, to be honest,

because, here's the thing. When it comes to the Internet,

the reason that fake news flourishes in the way that it does

is because it's attractive to read. Unfortunately, with the way that

some stories from Wales are framed, they are not framed

in a particularly I think Wales is hilarious

and very interesting. But I would rather people be able

to trust what they are seeing in the newspapers and on TV,

and that's why I agree with Kevin. The onus is on us as journalists

to be doing this right. People are not going to want to read

the news is they think that it's fake, and that's the real issue

here with this. It sounds kind of ridiculous to say

that, that the Internet can threaten press freedom,

but when you have politicians who can just turn around at a story

that may well be true and just dismiss it as fake news,

and the public doesn't know what to believe,

that's the real issue here. What about this issue

of the news cycle now? With 24-hour news channels,

it goes at 1 million miles an hour, so you can't have time to actually

develop a story and go How much of a concern would that

be, and how much does Rumours can be spread

as fact when they're not. And the pressure is intense,

because people want their news It's every minute of

every hour in the day. And you've got to resist

cutting the corners. Do not assert and say this is true

when you don't know. Thank you both very much for your

fake news input this evening. If you'd like to get in touch

with us about what's been discussed tonight or anything

else, email us at [email protected],

or follow us on social media ? where the

discussion continues.