Browse content similar to Election Special: Brexit. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In four weeks' time, voters will take part | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
in the general election of 2017 - the election that was | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
And casting a long shadow over the entire campaign | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
So tonight we start our election debates with a special edition | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
on the biggest political issue of our time. | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
So there are four weeks to go until election day on June 8th, | :00:22. | :00:38. | |
an election that's been called by Theresa May three years ahead | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
of the legal requirement because she says she needs | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
a strong mandate in the Brexit process ahead. | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
No general election should be about just one issue - | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
it's not a referendum, after all - and there are so many | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
challenges facing Wales and the UK beyond the Brexit question. | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
But there's no escaping the immediacy of the | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
The clock is ticking on the Article 50 process. | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
So for the first of our election editions, we'll explore the Brexit | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
Over the next few weeks we'll also be examining other key issues | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
in a series of special programmes culminating in a live leaders | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
If you'd like to be in the audience then please get in touch. | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
Before I introduce my guests this evening, let's hear | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
from some Welsh voters, and we've been speaking to some | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
in Blaenau Gwent which recorded one of the biggest Leave | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
I don't think Wales's voice is going to be heard but I do think there are | :01:37. | :01:59. | |
issues. Especially in this area. We have had a lot of European funding | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
in this area which is going to stop. And I have heard nobody saying they | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
are going to replace it with anything else. I would have to say, | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
I did vote to leave because I could see benefits of leaving. I think | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
it's taking far too long, people are stretching it out far too far and | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
there is obviously the reason for it. It seems that Britain is | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
expected to pave a large amount to leave than they were in the | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
beginning -- expected to pay. I always feel Waleed is the poor | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
relative and it's about time we spoke up as most people. -- Wales is | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
the poor relative. I . -- I voted Tuesday. If it goes | :02:39. | :02:50. | |
successfully I will put my hand up and say, you were right and I was | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
wrong but at the moment they are so busy squabbling with each other. | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
Instead of saying, sit down at the table, the | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
-- doesn't matter if it is Ukip, Labour, but find the best way | :03:03. | :03:11. | |
forward for everybody concerned. We should have our own opinions and our | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
own way of ruling our country and not allow the rest of Europe to | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
control what we do. With this toing and froing from all parties, | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
Conservatives, Labour, liberals, whatever it is, I'm in the middle. I | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
don't know which way to go but at the end of the day the people who | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
have voted for Brexit. I don't see the point in voting really because | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
nothing ever goes our way anyway so what's the point in voting if stuff | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
that we don't want happens? Our thanks to the people of Blaenau | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
Gwent for talking to us this week. We asked the five main parties | :04:01. | :04:01. | |
in Wales to nominate a representative for the programme | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
and they are, for the Labour For the Liberal Democrats, | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
Eluned Parrott. And if you want to join | :04:07. | :04:17. | |
the debate on social media You can add your comments as we go | :04:18. | :04:26. | |
along. Thank you for joining us, we have a lot of ground to cover. I | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
want to start with a brief comment from all of you on the Prime | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
Minister's own statement, the principle that informs the approach | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
to Brexit when she said famously, no deal is better than a bad deal. | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
However we want to define a bad deal, we will come onto that, but as | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
a printable, is it right? Absolutely right that she has gone into the | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
negotiation making it clear to the EU but if they don't want to deliver | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
access to the single market, we will pull out and continue to trade with | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
Europe and the rest of the world under WTO ruled and it would be | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
ludicrous going into a negotiation not making that clear otherwise we | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
will not get a deal in the first place. Nobly believes that Britain | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
actually means that. -- nobody believes. If we end a negotiation | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
with the consequence of which will be crashing our economy with | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
devastating effect on jobs and the standard of living, we should not be | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
signing up to the deal. We should continue to negotiate until we get | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
the best deal not just for Britain, but we don't want a reduction in the | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
kind of support we have seen coming from Europe to Wales specifically | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
all stock we will try to pick up on all of that. The principal, no deal | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
better than a bad deal? I think it's absolutely crazy and recklessly | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
irresponsible. The truth is that to crash out of the European Union | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
without the legal and financial ends tied together will leave us in a | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
chaotic situation where we don't know what we are faced with in the | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
future. We need to have some form of deal, we need to have some kind of | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
certainty for our business is otherwise the economic damage to the | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
economy will be catastrophic. Your point on the principle? To echo what | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
she is saying, I think it shows she is weak and unstable in her attitude | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
toward negotiations. It is important to define and consider what a bad | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
Brexit might mean and the different kinds of bad, what she might | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
continue to be a good Brexit I fear could be bad for Wales. We need to | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
be in a position where we work toward a departure from the EU which | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
genuinely reflect the different needs of the different parts of the | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
UK. Wales being a net exporter, for example, we should be able to | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
rubber-stamp bad deal and that is where I hope Plaid Cymru we will | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
defend Wales in that respect. I had hoped that in the past year it would | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
not have been a wasted year as it appears to be now because | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
negotiations have not taken place really. I feel in this way that | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
Theresa May has failed us. I want the best deal we can have for the UK | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
and obviously for Wales. I'm Welsh through and through and I want us to | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
see -- I want to see us doing well but particularly as I'm in the | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
assembly, devolved powers are obviously paramount important and I | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
want the best deal with tariff free access to the single market. Just to | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
reinforce, no deal would be better than a bad deal. Do you agree with | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
that? No, I want a positive deal for Wales and the UK. If it was a bad | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
deal... You can't have no deal and a bad deal, there is somewhere in | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
between which will benefit Wales and the UK. Within those areas and I | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
will pick up on some of those points, 60% of Welsh exports | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
currently go to the EU, a very big figure and bigger than other parts | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
of the UK. Looking at our access to the single market, it has clearly | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
been important to our economic well-being so, David, if that access | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
is no longer there, what does it mean for Wales? The access will be | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
there because there is a fundamental mistake people are making which is | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
to think that if we walk away without any sort of deal we won't be | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
able to trade with France or Germany any more and that's not correct. It | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
depends on the deal. It doesn't, we don't have a deal with America, we | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
trade with them, we trade with any country in world under WTO rules. We | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
can carry on trading with EU countries without a deal because | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
they cannot put up a protective wall against us. We will trade with them | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
but under WTO rules which means we pay a tariff. The general tariffs we | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
would pay would be less than as a percentage than the amount that | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
sterling has fallen. Even if we don't have a deal, our goods would | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
still be more competitive than they were before the vote. This is where | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
we come to the nitty-gritty, how much would those tariffs become for | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
example, on agriculture food products? We're looking at possible | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
tariffs of 40%. What do the food producers and farmers in your | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
constituency of that? We can't think no deal is an option. The tariff | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
thing is such a big issue because until we know what you're talking | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
about... I'm glad we've moved on and we've accepted we can trade without | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
a deal. Thank you, that's exactly the point. Now we have established | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
point that anybody can trade with anybody, we can talk about tariffs. | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
Let's talk about that because the average tariff is about 6% and on | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
industrial goods and that'll do think sometimes lower. There are | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
certain agricultural areas, particularly with lamb, where it is | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
higher, even higher than 50%. But the point is that we export a lot of | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
lamb to the European Union, about a third I think, and it is significant | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
but we import far more from the European Union in agricultural goods | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
than we export. That is by measure of about three to one. So while | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
there are risks to the lamb sector, other sectors will do very well. We | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
need to ensure that lamb farmers are using the extra tariff money we | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
would be getting when you try to export to us. The truth is that it | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
is not about average tariffs being local is about specific tariffs in | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
areas that are strategically important to the Welsh economy. | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
Welsh farming industry cannot take a hit from the European Union export | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
market when its produce is suddenly 50% more expensive. So what is the | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
answer? That we had to say straightaway that lamb is a problem, | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
an issue, because the tariffs are very high and we export about a | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
third of our lamb to the EU. Let's not pretend we will not be able to | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
trade with Europe, we have established that, and let's not | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
pretend that tariffs are very high because generally they are below | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
10%. The areas where there is a problem like lamb, we have to be | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
aware of that and be ready to put in place... If I am a Welsh farmer in | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
this area, you acknowledge it is a problem, that is not much comfort to | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
me. It is more comfort than saying we cannot trade with the EU. What is | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
clear is that the Tories have admitted it that they are prepared | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
to sacrifice the agricultural community on the altar of Brexit. | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
That's not true. Going beyond tariffs, it is about the paperwork | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
involved also in new cross from one border to another. It is absolutely | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
true. The ports in Wales, people are telling me that if we crashed out of | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
the customs union as well, we will have to check all the goods going | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
out, all the people coming in, all of that requires a huge amount of | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
time and effort and resources and will slow down the whole process. | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
Not just for agriculture but also for the supply chains which exist | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
within Wales. It is not just about the money, is about timing. | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
One more point. The other point. You keep on arguing this. It's | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
fascinating. That, oh, they trade with us. They do trade with us, but | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
48% of the UK's trade is with them. Only 8% is the maximum of any | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
country in the EU. So we will suffer a huge amount more than they will. | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
You have to remember that the European Union is a political | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
construct, it's not just an economic one. In the same way as the people | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
in this country voted on political reasons for leaving the EU, they | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
will be supporting the EU for political reasons as well. It's not | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
just all about the economy. Caroline. This is all about | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
successful negotiations because, at the moment, we have the EU has a | :13:25. | :13:32. | |
50-60 billion annual surplus with the UK. All right. So when we send - | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
when we deal with Germany and purchase car there is is ?20 billion | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
surplus. The negotiations that are taking place between the UK and the | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
EU is in the interests, for us, to strike a deal together for all the | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
economies in the EU and worldwide. Toll succeed because it's a two-way | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
thing. Despite the imbalance that she was talking about this? I'm talk | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
about striking a deal with everyone. We import German cars, ?20 billion | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
surplus. They will lose far, far less than us. This is the question | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
that you failed to address, time and time again, you have to understand | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
that the political construct and the one thing that Theresa May has | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
succeeded in doing is to unite Europe. To unite Europe. Toll say - | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
we're all going to come together and fight this one thing. Yeah. They are | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
certainly not united about that. Let's park the dynamics and strategy | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
at the minute. It has to be about successful negotiations because | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
there are things we apparently would lose on, but would gain on in other | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
areas. We have to strike a balance and we want tariff-free access to | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
the single market. We have now established that we will be able to | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
trade with the rest of the European Union. So it was incorrect - At | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
cost. Because we began this discussion saying we wouldn't be | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
able to trade with - I never said that. We have established that. We | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
will be looking Atta ifs, if we trade under WTO rules. Most of us, I | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
think we are actually agreed, we would rather have access to the | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
single market. We would rather have a deal. So the approach that Theresa | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
May has adoptside to sit down and say - we want to have single market | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
access deal, which will allow you to sell your cars and wine to us while | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
we sell our goods to you if we don't get one we will walk away. Jeremy | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
Corbyn's approach is we want single market access deal, if we don't get | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
one we might just stay in. They want us to stay in. Guess what, they will | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
not give us a deal if we sit down and take that attitude. Everyone | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
should be supporting Theresa May if she want a that deal. This year | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
could have been more productively spent by the Prime Minister. You | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
think it's been wasted year? I do. I want people's concerns to be | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
minimal. Instead of that - Will is a process. You can't just do it? She | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
had the mandate from the people of Wales, from the people, the mandate | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
from the House of Commons and Lords this election is totally | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
unnecessary. I want to talk to you - It's worse than a wasted year | :16:12. | :16:20. | |
because what Theresa May has done by her sabre-rattling her antagonism is | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
destroyed any good faith between the two negotiating parties and made all | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
of those talks - You mean in the statement in Downing Street she | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
made? The statement in Downing Street but month after month what | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
we've heard is, time and time again, a lack of respect. What we have to | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
do is build a rapport. You get a lack of respect in the European | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
Union - To be able to negotiate on a fairway. The point has been made. | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
Can I bring it back to what we are hopefully meant to be talking about | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
here, which is the affect of all of this on Wales. It's defending | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
Wales's interest. I thought it was all in the Wales context myself. I | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
accept - We are part of the UK. When you are talking about the EU being | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
net exporters to Britain, let us concentrate here, as Huw said at the | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
outset, on Wales being a net exporter to the EU, for example, | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
Wales being more of a beneficiary of European funding, for example, than | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
the rest of the EU. Those specific elements that we need to take to the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
table in negotiations on leaving the EU that have Welsh interests at | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
heart. We had those people in Blaenau Gwent, it's something I hear | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
time and time again. Nobody is listening to us here in Wales.s I | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
feel that. We need to make sure that our voice is heard. OK. Or our | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
interests will be ignored. Caroline, seriously, if we keep on this we | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
won't get anywhere. OK. Tens of thousands of EU nationals in Wales | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
and, you know, that is clearly a block of people whose rights have to | :17:57. | :17:58. | |
be addressed. British people in other parts of the EU, their rights, | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
too. I'm putting that in the context of the importance of freedom of | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
movement as well given that is one of the main planks of our deal, in | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
terms of the single market. On freedom of movement has Plaid Cymru | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
changed its tune? We are very clear that we need workers from across the | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
EU and beyond to keep our public services afloat. To help in our | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
economy in many, many ways and the agriculture sector and the | :18:29. | :18:30. | |
hospitality sector, for example. We need to be able, in the post-EU | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
world to, to have our say here in Wales on the kinds of... On the kind | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
of immigration that will help us here in Wales. I've heard what | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
people have said about wanting to take back control. One of those | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
elements of control that I think we can have, if we put defending Wales | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
at the heart of our thinking, is to have, for example, regional visas. | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
We can say we need those workers in these sector. How practical is that? | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
It works in Canada. A process by which people a visa to work in the | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
UK. Here in Wales, for example the health service. We can attract those | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
people. Would the Lib Dems welcome that policy? I think it's a | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
bureaucratic nightmare waiting to happen. . Need free movement of | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
people between Europe and Britain. Tens of thousands of our NHS workers | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
here in Wales are EU nationals or from other parts of the world. We | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
need them to keep our services running. In addition to that, they | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
are economically important to us as well. Our universities, that free | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
exchange of ideas, the things that create wealth for Wales and create | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
jobs for Wales they are dependent on our ability to be able to I a tract | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
the best minds to Wales and for our children and our children's children | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
to have the aspiration to be able to move around Europe and go elsewhere, | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
too. We have to remember the rights of EU citizens but British citizens | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
in Europe as well. Both of those things are incredibly important. On | :20:02. | :20:03. | |
the need question, this is the crucial thing. Where we are | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
dependent, like the health service, dependent on people to come here and | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
work and offer their services, what is your thought there on freedom of | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
movement? We want social cohesion to work and, in the interests of Wales | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
and the UK as a whole, we feel that immigration has to be controlled and | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
it has to be on a skills need basis. Obviously, if someone has a skill | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
that we need, then that person has access here. But it has to be an a | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
fair system and a points system he. We have to ensure that, for example, | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
in nursing, that we give our own people that want to be nurses, | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
people from Wales, a fair crack of the whip really and don't turn them | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
away. When we bring people in, we still have to train them. Don't | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
forget we are taking people from countries that - Some people come | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
ready trained? They have to be trained to understand the thinking | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
of the UK and the way in which the UK operates. David, it's whether you | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
think that controlling freedom of movement is a price worth paying for | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
continued access in some form to the market or where do you see the | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
importance of controlling freedom of movement in this debate? Well, if | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
you are talking about movement nobody is suggesting anyone won't be | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
able to move around. Freedom of movement is a technical phrase? | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
Immigration is far too high at the moment, and needs to come down. | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
You've had a lot long time to sort it out. They claim benefits for | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
children who don't live here and people who come for a short time and | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
work and can claim benefits. Outside of the EU? I don't think it's | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
acceptable you can come over here, work for a few months and be able to | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
claim all sorts of benefits. That's unacceptable. Having said that, my | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
wife is Hungarian, an EU citizen Hungary is still in the EU. She is a | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
Hungarian citizen she doesn't have a British passport. There is no threat | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
whatsoever to law abiding, hard-working Polish, hung garan and | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
other EU citizens who come here to work. These scare stories... This is | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
an important point. My wife doesn't need a British passport, she doesn't | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
need one - Lots of your colleagues in Government have not offered, in | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
those specific terms - Too many scare stories have been put out | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
there. She's not given that assurance. She wants to protect the | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
rights of British citizens in other parts of the European Union. She has | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
offered to have a negotiation with the rest of the EU about that before | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
any discussions start about Brexit. The negotiation means nothing is | :22:54. | :22:55. | |
certain. That is the point of a negotiation. Common sense tells us | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
all there is no way that we're going to start rounding up Polish or other | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
EU citizens - It's a question of people's rights. Whether they have | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
them. Whether they can stay or not. We have to understand is that | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
economically migrants from the EU contribute far, far more than they | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
take out across the United Kingdom they contribute ?6 billion, which is | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
what is paying for people's pensions and schools and hospitals. So you | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
can stop them if you want, there will be consequences to that. You | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
need to be honest with the public about the consequences. Are you | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
saying my wife will get thrown out. It's rubbish. You have given a | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
guarantee that Theresa May has failed to give. I would like to say | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
David has come out with immigration is too high. Since 2010 Theresa May | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
has promised to bring, with Cameron, to bring the levels down to tens of | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
thousands of people per year. Instead of that, two million people | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
since 2010 have entered. That commitment is still there? We can't | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
control incompetent immigration from within the European Union until we | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
leave. You can control it from outside, you aren't doing that. Let | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
David answer. I'm sure if the Labour Party would like to work with us to | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
bring about legislation that prevents some of the widespread | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
abuses going on at the moment. You had plenty of time to sort it out, | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
you haven't done it. David Davies is talking about scare stories about | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
people being thrown out of the UK. His party is responsible for the | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
scare stories based on no evidence about the negativity effects that | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
these immigration from the EU have when they are clearly net | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
contributors to our economy. One thing - We don't know that for sure, | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
actually. Yes, we do. No, we don't. If I could just continue. Today the | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
OBR had a report talking about the value of migrants to the economy. | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
Skwloo r What people tend to do is look at the fact that the majority | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
of EU workers are paying taxes. They don't cost the benefits, not | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
necessarily employment benefits, the cost of social housing, education | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
and so on. It's never been done. As Plaid Cymru's Shadow Health | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
Secretary, we need people from the rest of the EU to work in our public | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
services. Will we be able to retain those EU citizens currently working | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
in the NHS now. I hope so. I can't imagine a situation where they would | :25:32. | :25:39. | |
be rounded up, to use your words. Why No question. How many people out | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
there who might have considered working in Wales to help us deliver | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
the health service will not now be coming? We can't know about that. | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
Your thoughts? What is really sad in all of this is that there are human | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
beings here, individual human beings whose own status feels threatened. | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
People who are - they are doctors, nurses, translators. They are people | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
working in really useful jobs for our society who feel like they are | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
not wanted. Who feel like, regardless of the negotiations that | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
are yet to take place, that something has changed in this last | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
year. Suddenly, they are no longer wanted. Suddenly - This is not true. | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
Why do you say that? I know loads of Eastern Europeans, I'm married to | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
one. They don't feel that. They feel threatened they are told by | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
reluctant remainers there is a threat to their livelihood. There's | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
not. I met a French woman who is teaching in a London school the | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
other day, she has been here for 12 years she says very clearly - I'm | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
scared about whether I will be able to stay or not. Is she has probably | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
been watching the BBC. We can trade cheap jokes all night, we can. Out | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
of respect to viewers, people do say that. It's easy to just dismiss it? | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
As someone who has been a member of Parliament for many years there is | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
no threat whatsoever to hard-working, law abiding citizens | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
to anybody Testimonisome not giving that guarantee. You are not the | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
Prime Minister. She should be giving it and she's not doing it. She has | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
made that clear. She has not. People are worried because the Prime | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
Minister of this country has not given us the assurance we needed | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
that they are going to be able to stay. We have every confidence that | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
Theresa May is - You made the point very clear. Two billion give or take | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
in structural funds Wales has benefitted from that. 2014 the | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
figures we have been able to analyse in detail, Wales net beneficiary of | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
funds the only bit of the UK ?250 million. That's the kind of broad | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
picture. To what extent is that in danger? To what extent can Wales be | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
sure, as was said in a studio similar to this last year, that | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
Wales would not be at lost, he was clear about it. Unequivocal | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
actually. David will come last. I want everyone to make their point. | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
Eluned Parrott your thoughts on Wales's access to the money that's | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
been actually rather important to investing in communities? | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
Our structural funds are crucial to Wales, half of our apprenticeships | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
are funded by EU money and a lot of the infrastructure projects we have | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
seen develop in the valleys areas and in Westworld in particular, what | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
we really need to see from Theresa May is an assurance that that money | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
will continue to come. And actually, agricultural funding as well. | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
Otherwise we have a real hole in the budget for Wales for funding some | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
crucial improvements for our poorest and most deprived communities. One | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
of the elements of the bad Brexit that I fear is being brewed up by | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
the Conservatives at Westminster as opposed to the best deal we could | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
have, we will be seeking is not just in relation to the negotiations with | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
the European Union but also the internal discussions within the UK, | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
the kind of guarantees of what happens to funding for example or | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
Common Agricultural Policy, support for farmers. I am sure we will get a | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
guarantee from David Davis as he has given a guarantee on immigration | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
that the funding will come. He is not in a position to give that | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
guarantee. We know for example that when it comes to not just money but | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
the powers on how to spend it, UK Conservatives are planning to hold | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
those powers when they come back from Brussels in Westminster until | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
such a time as they can be divvied out to the nations. I don't accept | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
that that is a rock-solid pledge that we need here in Wales to defend | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
our interests as a nation. This was put to Parliament, it was voted down | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
after Plaid Cymru suggested it, let's have a guarantee on future | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
funding, we have not had that. I don't blame those people in Blaenau | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
Gwent for thinking nobody is listening to us. I think what is | :30:15. | :30:22. | |
important is that people voted for Brexit on the basis of those | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
assurances. I would like to see in the Tory manifesto those assurances | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
being written into a manifesto. I'm very confident that in terms of what | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
should be coming to Wales that we may see that covered in the Labour | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
manifesto. I would like to challenge David Davies to make that commitment | :30:44. | :30:45. | |
today that it will also be in the Tory manifesto. What is important is | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
it that, you are the people who make those promises, you have to fulfil | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
them. The confident in politician and it all already at a low and if | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
people were duped into Brexit on the basis of promises that will not be | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
carried out, I think it is a real problem for politics and all of a | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
sudden the future. You will get your child in a second, David. Caroline, | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
a thought about what could happen to money that has been valuable to | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
Wales in the past -- you will get your chance. This is where | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
collaboration is of paramount importance, we all have our | :31:22. | :31:23. | |
political differences but it is about sitting at a table and working | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
collaboratively with every party to ensure that the best deal for Wales | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
is available, working out what we need for Wales and sitting round the | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
table and discussing it. I would like to see an array of MPs elected | :31:39. | :31:48. | |
in this collection from various parties so we can truly hold the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
government to account. Holding to account is one thing, if we are no | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
longer in the EU at the end of the Brexiters process and don't have | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
access to these funds that I mentioned, the 2 billion, what is | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
your answer to the people who will say, where will we get that support | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
in the future? Will Westminster deliver that? The money we save from | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
being members in the EU will come back to the Westminster government | :32:14. | :32:21. | |
and it is up to us to ensure that Wales gets this deal, the best deal | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
for our farmers, for agriculture, for our investment. I live in one of | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
the poorest regions in Aberavon and it is of paramount importance to me | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
to ensure that the people of Wales do not suffer and that Brexit is | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
going to be a positive thing as opposed to negative. Caroline is | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
framing it in terms of what might be achieved if people work together | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
which clearly isn't the same as that the government saying don't worry, | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
you're not going to be at a loss, any funding you may have lost | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
because of our ending of membership will be made up. Wales is a net | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
beneficiary, that will not change in terms of the kind of investment put | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
into communities. What is the answer? First of all the government | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
has already given these guarantees, on agriculture for example. We pay | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
?18 billion a year into the EU, we get about 9 billion back. We will | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
not only be able to continue funding all of the European projects that | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
are currently funded but we will have a lot more money to put more | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
money in. How much more will come to Wales? I don't know. One of the | :33:27. | :33:37. | |
issues, I can't give that... I can say with absolute certainty because | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
the ministers are already confirmed this, they will continue the funding | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
at the same levels. What happens to be extra money, I don't know. It | :33:44. | :33:51. | |
will depend on if we have do pace thing to get access to the single | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
market. The ministers have been clear about that. There is a | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
question as to how much the those powers get devolved to the Welsh | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
Assembly and how we distribute it. Do we give out a blank cheque? Do we | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
maintain some similar pattern to what we have at the moment where | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
Brussels decides things and the nation state divvy it out and | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
maintain the day-to-day running of the scheme? Do we move that to | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
London, to the nation states? I think it will probably be | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
impractical to have Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
all doing slightly different things. Isn't that devolution? With the | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
subsidy payments. That is the feeling that the NFU and the F2 | :34:35. | :34:43. | |
watts at as well. -- and the FUW. You can't have a situation where | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
markets are being distorted. You wouldn't want Nicola Sturgeon giving | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
huge amount to support Scottish beef market if Wales was putting money | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
elsewhere, you don't want market distortion. You will get what we | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
already have now. That is the guarantee? The government have been | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
clear that no powers will be taken away. To be clear, we will come to | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
powers in a moment, with talking cash. Hard cash. Will that be in | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
your manifesto? I don't write the manifesto. You keep on ducking out. | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
All these is your -- assurances that will not be in the manifesto. I have | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
given you very straight answers. You're making it up, David. You're | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
making up policy. Do you fully accept Brexit like your leader? I | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
do. It is the good point to clarify, I'm bound to ask you as well because | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
yesterday when Laura Coombs big interviewed Jeremy Corbyn there was | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
a direct question which was, if there was a Labour government, are | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
you saying that we definitely come out of the EU. He found it difficult | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
to answer that question for some reason, he would not give that | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
specific assurance. It was clarified later by his office. What is your | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
take on that? We voted through the House of Commons and House of Lords, | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
there was a Labour whip on it, the people have spoken and we will be | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
coming out of the EU. Under a Labour government that is not in doubt? No. | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
It is about the conditions. And hopefully Jeremy Corbyn will find it | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
as easy to answer. The nice thing is that you are all offering me | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
guarantees on all kinds of things! Powers are very important. We are in | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
the last section of the programme, so your thoughts as a Liberal | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
Democrat about not just access to very important funds we have had in | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
the past but also what happens, as quite a few of you have raised, | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
about the power was coming back from Brussels? Will they stick at | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
Westminster for some of the bees and David has offered? What is your | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
perspective? I think there is a very real danger that this negotiation | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
process and the repatriation of powers might mask a power grab back | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
to Westminster powers that are currently in Wales. There may be | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
practical reasons why it is difficult to take powers, for | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
example without the funding that comes with it, and the two things | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
are linked. Looking at agriculture, we the powers over agriculture but | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
if we don't get the funding to deliver the agricultural payments, | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
that is a challenge. I want to come back to the point about ministerial | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
assurances because they are not quite what David Davis has told you. | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
Which ones? The assurance that funding will continue at the current | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
level, that is not correct. The assurance that Wales has been given | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
is that projects that are currently an already been signed off will be | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
funded. There is absolutely no future assurance for any of the | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
structural funds or indeed the agricultural funding that comes to | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
Wales. None of that has been assured, it is a very small envelope | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
of things which have been assured and there are still ongoing | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
negotiations about a particular project which the Welsh government | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
as I understand it is believed to have signed and that funding | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
envelope is still under question in many cases. Please, don't give us | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
assurances that are much more broadbrush than the reality. Have | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
you been overpromising, David? No George used as was clear about this. | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
I'm not the ministers is easy for everyone to say that I can't promise | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
anything. I can tell you what has been said. I can assure you that all | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
Conservative MPs as far as I'm aware have been clear that we want levels | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
of funding to stay the same, we don't want to throw people out of | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
the country, you won't find this stuff being said by any Conservative | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
MP. We want a smooth transition, we have not wasted the last year. We | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
could have left on the 24th of June, but instead the Conservative Party | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
under David Cameron and Theresa May have said that we should not rush | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
into this, to do in a responsible fashion. We may well spend another | :39:00. | :39:08. | |
two years negotiating and it doesn't matter because we will do this in a | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
smooth and sensible fashion. The powers that will be repatriated, | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
what will happen and what should happen to them? It is a matter of | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
taking back control. For those people who took that particular | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
phrase seriously, wanting to repay trade powers from Brussels, I don't | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
believe that they wanted to see those powers being brought back from | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
Westminster and given to Westminster when those powers are over devolved | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
areas already, agriculture, economic development and so on, they should | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
be coming back to Wales. I think it is section 4.2 of the great repeal | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
paper that says quite clearly that powers are in danger of going back | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
to Westminster with them being divvied out later. I don't accept | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
that the practical way forward. We have these two years, it was always | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
going to be that, that was way the Article 15 process works, and we | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
need an assurance that those powers, we need the working out of how they | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
will come straight back to the communities in Wales. -- Article 50. | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
Was Carwyn Jones right to talk about some sort of constitutional crisis, | :40:20. | :40:27. | |
if this repatriation doesn't work in the way he considers is right for | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
Wales? What you have to remember is when we went into the EU, devolution | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
did not exist. We are coming out to a different world, you can't go back | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
to what was there before. We do have a construct within the UK that | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
allows for a sample for a single market within the United Kingdom | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
that is not under the framework of the single market of Europe. We are | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
going to have to create a new construct and that means we will | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
have to have new kinds of relationships between the UK and we | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
will have to formulate a system, a mechanism, which actually respect | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
the devolution settlement that is already there are also so that he | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
will not see London undercutting Wales if they want to subsidise. You | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
have to make sure that the competition within the United | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
Kingdom works. What is important is that those powers should come back | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
to Wales first, where I think they legally should and RB based at the | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
moment if the UK Government wants them, they have to take is on and | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
take us to court. But it may be that after that we can pass back some | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
powers to the UK but it will be about us volunteering those powers | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
back from Wales. What kind of powers? For example, in the area of | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
agriculture we have to understand that it would make sense to have | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
some kind of system where there would be a mechanism where you could | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
only subsidise to a certain extent and you are not undercutting each | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
other. The Ukip view of that? Devolution is here to stay and the | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
devolved powers we already have we want to ensure that we retain them. | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
And obviously we want more powers, we want our tax raising element to | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
go ahead as well because what I would like to see is a low tax | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
economy in Wales so that we attract high earners to Wales so we can | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
stimulant the economy. Obviously in the interests of the people of Wales | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
it is important to make devolution work and to insist that we have all | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
our devolved powers back from the UK Government. And the extra power is | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
coming back from Brussels at the end of Brexit should all go to? Wales? | :42:36. | :42:44. | |
All that Wales is capable of managing but devolution can increase | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
as time goes on and I think that is what will happen. We are into the | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
last minute and I will give David a final say on this. There are powers | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
in Wales, in London, in Brussels, we will not take any powers away from | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
Wales. I recognised the referendum result on the EU, but those powers | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
that have come from Brussels, they will go back to London, we will not | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
take anything away from Wales and at some point some will go to Wales. | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
The Conservatives have devolved rather a lot of extra powers to | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
Wales in the last few years and they will not hesitate to do it further. | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
These are areas we already control. No you don't, Brussels controls them | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
and they have come to London. They are only a bit further up the | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
motorway now. What we have heard from Blaenau Gwent and other places | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
that people feel disempowered and the purpose of devolution was to put | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
power closer to the people. I want to see powers not only coming from | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Westminster to Wales but also from the what assembly to our local | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
communities and authorities. This is a complex and long conversation but | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
we need a fundamental rethink about how the balance of powers will lie | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
between the nations of this country. Brussels has never willingly given | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
away powers but London has also it is about working collaboratively, | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
the UK Government with the Welsh government to ensure Wales | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
progresses along with the rest of the UK. It has been a very | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
interesting exchange! Thank you to all of you for coming in. Four weeks | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
to go and we will have another chap as the campaign goes on. | :44:15. | :44:14. | |
I'll be back next week with the second of our special | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
If you'd like to get in touch about that, | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
or if you'd like to be in the audience for a live | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
debate with the Welsh party leaders, email us. | :44:26. | :44:27. | |
The address is [email protected], | :44:28. | :44:28. | |
or use the social media hashtag thewalesreport. | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
But for now, diolch am wylio, a nos da. | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
Thanks for joining us, and good night. | :44:35. | :44:38. |