Election Special: Brexit The Wales Report

Election Special: Brexit

As voters head towards the polls on 8 June, Huw Edwards examines the consequences and implications of Brexit for Wales.

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In four weeks' time, voters will take part


in the general election of 2017 - the election that was


And casting a long shadow over the entire campaign


So tonight we start our election debates with a special edition


on the biggest political issue of our time.


So there are four weeks to go until election day on June 8th,


an election that's been called by Theresa May three years ahead


of the legal requirement because she says she needs


a strong mandate in the Brexit process ahead.


No general election should be about just one issue -


it's not a referendum, after all - and there are so many


challenges facing Wales and the UK beyond the Brexit question.


But there's no escaping the immediacy of the


The clock is ticking on the Article 50 process.


So for the first of our election editions, we'll explore the Brexit


Over the next few weeks we'll also be examining other key issues


in a series of special programmes culminating in a live leaders


If you'd like to be in the audience then please get in touch.


Before I introduce my guests this evening, let's hear


from some Welsh voters, and we've been speaking to some


in Blaenau Gwent which recorded one of the biggest Leave


I don't think Wales's voice is going to be heard but I do think there are


issues. Especially in this area. We have had a lot of European funding


in this area which is going to stop. And I have heard nobody saying they


are going to replace it with anything else. I would have to say,


I did vote to leave because I could see benefits of leaving. I think


it's taking far too long, people are stretching it out far too far and


there is obviously the reason for it. It seems that Britain is


expected to pave a large amount to leave than they were in the


beginning -- expected to pay. I always feel Waleed is the poor


relative and it's about time we spoke up as most people. -- Wales is


the poor relative. I . -- I voted Tuesday. If it goes


successfully I will put my hand up and say, you were right and I was


wrong but at the moment they are so busy squabbling with each other.


Instead of saying, sit down at the table, the


-- doesn't matter if it is Ukip, Labour, but find the best way


forward for everybody concerned. We should have our own opinions and our


own way of ruling our country and not allow the rest of Europe to


control what we do. With this toing and froing from all parties,


Conservatives, Labour, liberals, whatever it is, I'm in the middle. I


don't know which way to go but at the end of the day the people who


have voted for Brexit. I don't see the point in voting really because


nothing ever goes our way anyway so what's the point in voting if stuff


that we don't want happens? Our thanks to the people of Blaenau


Gwent for talking to us this week. We asked the five main parties


in Wales to nominate a representative for the programme


and they are, for the Labour For the Liberal Democrats,


Eluned Parrott. And if you want to join


the debate on social media You can add your comments as we go


along. Thank you for joining us, we have a lot of ground to cover. I


want to start with a brief comment from all of you on the Prime


Minister's own statement, the principle that informs the approach


to Brexit when she said famously, no deal is better than a bad deal.


However we want to define a bad deal, we will come onto that, but as


a printable, is it right? Absolutely right that she has gone into the


negotiation making it clear to the EU but if they don't want to deliver


access to the single market, we will pull out and continue to trade with


Europe and the rest of the world under WTO ruled and it would be


ludicrous going into a negotiation not making that clear otherwise we


will not get a deal in the first place. Nobly believes that Britain


actually means that. -- nobody believes. If we end a negotiation


with the consequence of which will be crashing our economy with


devastating effect on jobs and the standard of living, we should not be


signing up to the deal. We should continue to negotiate until we get


the best deal not just for Britain, but we don't want a reduction in the


kind of support we have seen coming from Europe to Wales specifically


all stock we will try to pick up on all of that. The principal, no deal


better than a bad deal? I think it's absolutely crazy and recklessly


irresponsible. The truth is that to crash out of the European Union


without the legal and financial ends tied together will leave us in a


chaotic situation where we don't know what we are faced with in the


future. We need to have some form of deal, we need to have some kind of


certainty for our business is otherwise the economic damage to the


economy will be catastrophic. Your point on the principle? To echo what


she is saying, I think it shows she is weak and unstable in her attitude


toward negotiations. It is important to define and consider what a bad


Brexit might mean and the different kinds of bad, what she might


continue to be a good Brexit I fear could be bad for Wales. We need to


be in a position where we work toward a departure from the EU which


genuinely reflect the different needs of the different parts of the


UK. Wales being a net exporter, for example, we should be able to


rubber-stamp bad deal and that is where I hope Plaid Cymru we will


defend Wales in that respect. I had hoped that in the past year it would


not have been a wasted year as it appears to be now because


negotiations have not taken place really. I feel in this way that


Theresa May has failed us. I want the best deal we can have for the UK


and obviously for Wales. I'm Welsh through and through and I want us to


see -- I want to see us doing well but particularly as I'm in the


assembly, devolved powers are obviously paramount important and I


want the best deal with tariff free access to the single market. Just to


reinforce, no deal would be better than a bad deal. Do you agree with


that? No, I want a positive deal for Wales and the UK. If it was a bad


deal... You can't have no deal and a bad deal, there is somewhere in


between which will benefit Wales and the UK. Within those areas and I


will pick up on some of those points, 60% of Welsh exports


currently go to the EU, a very big figure and bigger than other parts


of the UK. Looking at our access to the single market, it has clearly


been important to our economic well-being so, David, if that access


is no longer there, what does it mean for Wales? The access will be


there because there is a fundamental mistake people are making which is


to think that if we walk away without any sort of deal we won't be


able to trade with France or Germany any more and that's not correct. It


depends on the deal. It doesn't, we don't have a deal with America, we


trade with them, we trade with any country in world under WTO rules. We


can carry on trading with EU countries without a deal because


they cannot put up a protective wall against us. We will trade with them


but under WTO rules which means we pay a tariff. The general tariffs we


would pay would be less than as a percentage than the amount that


sterling has fallen. Even if we don't have a deal, our goods would


still be more competitive than they were before the vote. This is where


we come to the nitty-gritty, how much would those tariffs become for


example, on agriculture food products? We're looking at possible


tariffs of 40%. What do the food producers and farmers in your


constituency of that? We can't think no deal is an option. The tariff


thing is such a big issue because until we know what you're talking


about... I'm glad we've moved on and we've accepted we can trade without


a deal. Thank you, that's exactly the point. Now we have established


point that anybody can trade with anybody, we can talk about tariffs.


Let's talk about that because the average tariff is about 6% and on


industrial goods and that'll do think sometimes lower. There are


certain agricultural areas, particularly with lamb, where it is


higher, even higher than 50%. But the point is that we export a lot of


lamb to the European Union, about a third I think, and it is significant


but we import far more from the European Union in agricultural goods


than we export. That is by measure of about three to one. So while


there are risks to the lamb sector, other sectors will do very well. We


need to ensure that lamb farmers are using the extra tariff money we


would be getting when you try to export to us. The truth is that it


is not about average tariffs being local is about specific tariffs in


areas that are strategically important to the Welsh economy.


Welsh farming industry cannot take a hit from the European Union export


market when its produce is suddenly 50% more expensive. So what is the


answer? That we had to say straightaway that lamb is a problem,


an issue, because the tariffs are very high and we export about a


third of our lamb to the EU. Let's not pretend we will not be able to


trade with Europe, we have established that, and let's not


pretend that tariffs are very high because generally they are below


10%. The areas where there is a problem like lamb, we have to be


aware of that and be ready to put in place... If I am a Welsh farmer in


this area, you acknowledge it is a problem, that is not much comfort to


me. It is more comfort than saying we cannot trade with the EU. What is


clear is that the Tories have admitted it that they are prepared


to sacrifice the agricultural community on the altar of Brexit.


That's not true. Going beyond tariffs, it is about the paperwork


involved also in new cross from one border to another. It is absolutely


true. The ports in Wales, people are telling me that if we crashed out of


the customs union as well, we will have to check all the goods going


out, all the people coming in, all of that requires a huge amount of


time and effort and resources and will slow down the whole process.


Not just for agriculture but also for the supply chains which exist


within Wales. It is not just about the money, is about timing.


One more point. The other point. You keep on arguing this. It's


fascinating. That, oh, they trade with us. They do trade with us, but


48% of the UK's trade is with them. Only 8% is the maximum of any


country in the EU. So we will suffer a huge amount more than they will.


You have to remember that the European Union is a political


construct, it's not just an economic one. In the same way as the people


in this country voted on political reasons for leaving the EU, they


will be supporting the EU for political reasons as well. It's not


just all about the economy. Caroline. This is all about


successful negotiations because, at the moment, we have the EU has a


50-60 billion annual surplus with the UK. All right. So when we send -


when we deal with Germany and purchase car there is is ?20 billion


surplus. The negotiations that are taking place between the UK and the


EU is in the interests, for us, to strike a deal together for all the


economies in the EU and worldwide. Toll succeed because it's a two-way


thing. Despite the imbalance that she was talking about this? I'm talk


about striking a deal with everyone. We import German cars, ?20 billion


surplus. They will lose far, far less than us. This is the question


that you failed to address, time and time again, you have to understand


that the political construct and the one thing that Theresa May has


succeeded in doing is to unite Europe. To unite Europe. Toll say -


we're all going to come together and fight this one thing. Yeah. They are


certainly not united about that. Let's park the dynamics and strategy


at the minute. It has to be about successful negotiations because


there are things we apparently would lose on, but would gain on in other


areas. We have to strike a balance and we want tariff-free access to


the single market. We have now established that we will be able to


trade with the rest of the European Union. So it was incorrect - At


cost. Because we began this discussion saying we wouldn't be


able to trade with - I never said that. We have established that. We


will be looking Atta ifs, if we trade under WTO rules. Most of us, I


think we are actually agreed, we would rather have access to the


single market. We would rather have a deal. So the approach that Theresa


May has adoptside to sit down and say - we want to have single market


access deal, which will allow you to sell your cars and wine to us while


we sell our goods to you if we don't get one we will walk away. Jeremy


Corbyn's approach is we want single market access deal, if we don't get


one we might just stay in. They want us to stay in. Guess what, they will


not give us a deal if we sit down and take that attitude. Everyone


should be supporting Theresa May if she want a that deal. This year


could have been more productively spent by the Prime Minister. You


think it's been wasted year? I do. I want people's concerns to be


minimal. Instead of that - Will is a process. You can't just do it? She


had the mandate from the people of Wales, from the people, the mandate


from the House of Commons and Lords this election is totally


unnecessary. I want to talk to you - It's worse than a wasted year


because what Theresa May has done by her sabre-rattling her antagonism is


destroyed any good faith between the two negotiating parties and made all


of those talks - You mean in the statement in Downing Street she


made? The statement in Downing Street but month after month what


we've heard is, time and time again, a lack of respect. What we have to


do is build a rapport. You get a lack of respect in the European


Union - To be able to negotiate on a fairway. The point has been made.


Can I bring it back to what we are hopefully meant to be talking about


here, which is the affect of all of this on Wales. It's defending


Wales's interest. I thought it was all in the Wales context myself. I


accept - We are part of the UK. When you are talking about the EU being


net exporters to Britain, let us concentrate here, as Huw said at the


outset, on Wales being a net exporter to the EU, for example,


Wales being more of a beneficiary of European funding, for example, than


the rest of the EU. Those specific elements that we need to take to the


table in negotiations on leaving the EU that have Welsh interests at


heart. We had those people in Blaenau Gwent, it's something I hear


time and time again. Nobody is listening to us here in Wales.s I


feel that. We need to make sure that our voice is heard. OK. Or our


interests will be ignored. Caroline, seriously, if we keep on this we


won't get anywhere. OK. Tens of thousands of EU nationals in Wales


and, you know, that is clearly a block of people whose rights have to


be addressed. British people in other parts of the EU, their rights,


too. I'm putting that in the context of the importance of freedom of


movement as well given that is one of the main planks of our deal, in


terms of the single market. On freedom of movement has Plaid Cymru


changed its tune? We are very clear that we need workers from across the


EU and beyond to keep our public services afloat. To help in our


economy in many, many ways and the agriculture sector and the


hospitality sector, for example. We need to be able, in the post-EU


world to, to have our say here in Wales on the kinds of... On the kind


of immigration that will help us here in Wales. I've heard what


people have said about wanting to take back control. One of those


elements of control that I think we can have, if we put defending Wales


at the heart of our thinking, is to have, for example, regional visas.


We can say we need those workers in these sector. How practical is that?


It works in Canada. A process by which people a visa to work in the


UK. Here in Wales, for example the health service. We can attract those


people. Would the Lib Dems welcome that policy? I think it's a


bureaucratic nightmare waiting to happen. . Need free movement of


people between Europe and Britain. Tens of thousands of our NHS workers


here in Wales are EU nationals or from other parts of the world. We


need them to keep our services running. In addition to that, they


are economically important to us as well. Our universities, that free


exchange of ideas, the things that create wealth for Wales and create


jobs for Wales they are dependent on our ability to be able to I a tract


the best minds to Wales and for our children and our children's children


to have the aspiration to be able to move around Europe and go elsewhere,


too. We have to remember the rights of EU citizens but British citizens


in Europe as well. Both of those things are incredibly important. On


the need question, this is the crucial thing. Where we are


dependent, like the health service, dependent on people to come here and


work and offer their services, what is your thought there on freedom of


movement? We want social cohesion to work and, in the interests of Wales


and the UK as a whole, we feel that immigration has to be controlled and


it has to be on a skills need basis. Obviously, if someone has a skill


that we need, then that person has access here. But it has to be an a


fair system and a points system he. We have to ensure that, for example,


in nursing, that we give our own people that want to be nurses,


people from Wales, a fair crack of the whip really and don't turn them


away. When we bring people in, we still have to train them. Don't


forget we are taking people from countries that - Some people come


ready trained? They have to be trained to understand the thinking


of the UK and the way in which the UK operates. David, it's whether you


think that controlling freedom of movement is a price worth paying for


continued access in some form to the market or where do you see the


importance of controlling freedom of movement in this debate? Well, if


you are talking about movement nobody is suggesting anyone won't be


able to move around. Freedom of movement is a technical phrase?


Immigration is far too high at the moment, and needs to come down.


You've had a lot long time to sort it out. They claim benefits for


children who don't live here and people who come for a short time and


work and can claim benefits. Outside of the EU? I don't think it's


acceptable you can come over here, work for a few months and be able to


claim all sorts of benefits. That's unacceptable. Having said that, my


wife is Hungarian, an EU citizen Hungary is still in the EU. She is a


Hungarian citizen she doesn't have a British passport. There is no threat


whatsoever to law abiding, hard-working Polish, hung garan and


other EU citizens who come here to work. These scare stories... This is


an important point. My wife doesn't need a British passport, she doesn't


need one - Lots of your colleagues in Government have not offered, in


those specific terms - Too many scare stories have been put out


there. She's not given that assurance. She wants to protect the


rights of British citizens in other parts of the European Union. She has


offered to have a negotiation with the rest of the EU about that before


any discussions start about Brexit. The negotiation means nothing is


certain. That is the point of a negotiation. Common sense tells us


all there is no way that we're going to start rounding up Polish or other


EU citizens - It's a question of people's rights. Whether they have


them. Whether they can stay or not. We have to understand is that


economically migrants from the EU contribute far, far more than they


take out across the United Kingdom they contribute ?6 billion, which is


what is paying for people's pensions and schools and hospitals. So you


can stop them if you want, there will be consequences to that. You


need to be honest with the public about the consequences. Are you


saying my wife will get thrown out. It's rubbish. You have given a


guarantee that Theresa May has failed to give. I would like to say


David has come out with immigration is too high. Since 2010 Theresa May


has promised to bring, with Cameron, to bring the levels down to tens of


thousands of people per year. Instead of that, two million people


since 2010 have entered. That commitment is still there? We can't


control incompetent immigration from within the European Union until we


leave. You can control it from outside, you aren't doing that. Let


David answer. I'm sure if the Labour Party would like to work with us to


bring about legislation that prevents some of the widespread


abuses going on at the moment. You had plenty of time to sort it out,


you haven't done it. David Davies is talking about scare stories about


people being thrown out of the UK. His party is responsible for the


scare stories based on no evidence about the negativity effects that


these immigration from the EU have when they are clearly net


contributors to our economy. One thing - We don't know that for sure,


actually. Yes, we do. No, we don't. If I could just continue. Today the


OBR had a report talking about the value of migrants to the economy.


Skwloo r What people tend to do is look at the fact that the majority


of EU workers are paying taxes. They don't cost the benefits, not


necessarily employment benefits, the cost of social housing, education


and so on. It's never been done. As Plaid Cymru's Shadow Health


Secretary, we need people from the rest of the EU to work in our public


services. Will we be able to retain those EU citizens currently working


in the NHS now. I hope so. I can't imagine a situation where they would


be rounded up, to use your words. Why No question. How many people out


there who might have considered working in Wales to help us deliver


the health service will not now be coming? We can't know about that.


Your thoughts? What is really sad in all of this is that there are human


beings here, individual human beings whose own status feels threatened.


People who are - they are doctors, nurses, translators. They are people


working in really useful jobs for our society who feel like they are


not wanted. Who feel like, regardless of the negotiations that


are yet to take place, that something has changed in this last


year. Suddenly, they are no longer wanted. Suddenly - This is not true.


Why do you say that? I know loads of Eastern Europeans, I'm married to


one. They don't feel that. They feel threatened they are told by


reluctant remainers there is a threat to their livelihood. There's


not. I met a French woman who is teaching in a London school the


other day, she has been here for 12 years she says very clearly - I'm


scared about whether I will be able to stay or not. Is she has probably


been watching the BBC. We can trade cheap jokes all night, we can. Out


of respect to viewers, people do say that. It's easy to just dismiss it?


As someone who has been a member of Parliament for many years there is


no threat whatsoever to hard-working, law abiding citizens


to anybody Testimonisome not giving that guarantee. You are not the


Prime Minister. She should be giving it and she's not doing it. She has


made that clear. She has not. People are worried because the Prime


Minister of this country has not given us the assurance we needed


that they are going to be able to stay. We have every confidence that


Theresa May is - You made the point very clear. Two billion give or take


in structural funds Wales has benefitted from that. 2014 the


figures we have been able to analyse in detail, Wales net beneficiary of


funds the only bit of the UK ?250 million. That's the kind of broad


picture. To what extent is that in danger? To what extent can Wales be


sure, as was said in a studio similar to this last year, that


Wales would not be at lost, he was clear about it. Unequivocal


actually. David will come last. I want everyone to make their point.


Eluned Parrott your thoughts on Wales's access to the money that's


been actually rather important to investing in communities?


Our structural funds are crucial to Wales, half of our apprenticeships


are funded by EU money and a lot of the infrastructure projects we have


seen develop in the valleys areas and in Westworld in particular, what


we really need to see from Theresa May is an assurance that that money


will continue to come. And actually, agricultural funding as well.


Otherwise we have a real hole in the budget for Wales for funding some


crucial improvements for our poorest and most deprived communities. One


of the elements of the bad Brexit that I fear is being brewed up by


the Conservatives at Westminster as opposed to the best deal we could


have, we will be seeking is not just in relation to the negotiations with


the European Union but also the internal discussions within the UK,


the kind of guarantees of what happens to funding for example or


Common Agricultural Policy, support for farmers. I am sure we will get a


guarantee from David Davis as he has given a guarantee on immigration


that the funding will come. He is not in a position to give that


guarantee. We know for example that when it comes to not just money but


the powers on how to spend it, UK Conservatives are planning to hold


those powers when they come back from Brussels in Westminster until


such a time as they can be divvied out to the nations. I don't accept


that that is a rock-solid pledge that we need here in Wales to defend


our interests as a nation. This was put to Parliament, it was voted down


after Plaid Cymru suggested it, let's have a guarantee on future


funding, we have not had that. I don't blame those people in Blaenau


Gwent for thinking nobody is listening to us. I think what is


important is that people voted for Brexit on the basis of those


assurances. I would like to see in the Tory manifesto those assurances


being written into a manifesto. I'm very confident that in terms of what


should be coming to Wales that we may see that covered in the Labour


manifesto. I would like to challenge David Davies to make that commitment


today that it will also be in the Tory manifesto. What is important is


it that, you are the people who make those promises, you have to fulfil


them. The confident in politician and it all already at a low and if


people were duped into Brexit on the basis of promises that will not be


carried out, I think it is a real problem for politics and all of a


sudden the future. You will get your child in a second, David. Caroline,


a thought about what could happen to money that has been valuable to


Wales in the past -- you will get your chance. This is where


collaboration is of paramount importance, we all have our


political differences but it is about sitting at a table and working


collaboratively with every party to ensure that the best deal for Wales


is available, working out what we need for Wales and sitting round the


table and discussing it. I would like to see an array of MPs elected


in this collection from various parties so we can truly hold the


government to account. Holding to account is one thing, if we are no


longer in the EU at the end of the Brexiters process and don't have


access to these funds that I mentioned, the 2 billion, what is


your answer to the people who will say, where will we get that support


in the future? Will Westminster deliver that? The money we save from


being members in the EU will come back to the Westminster government


and it is up to us to ensure that Wales gets this deal, the best deal


for our farmers, for agriculture, for our investment. I live in one of


the poorest regions in Aberavon and it is of paramount importance to me


to ensure that the people of Wales do not suffer and that Brexit is


going to be a positive thing as opposed to negative. Caroline is


framing it in terms of what might be achieved if people work together


which clearly isn't the same as that the government saying don't worry,


you're not going to be at a loss, any funding you may have lost


because of our ending of membership will be made up. Wales is a net


beneficiary, that will not change in terms of the kind of investment put


into communities. What is the answer? First of all the government


has already given these guarantees, on agriculture for example. We pay


?18 billion a year into the EU, we get about 9 billion back. We will


not only be able to continue funding all of the European projects that


are currently funded but we will have a lot more money to put more


money in. How much more will come to Wales? I don't know. One of the


issues, I can't give that... I can say with absolute certainty because


the ministers are already confirmed this, they will continue the funding


at the same levels. What happens to be extra money, I don't know. It


will depend on if we have do pace thing to get access to the single


market. The ministers have been clear about that. There is a


question as to how much the those powers get devolved to the Welsh


Assembly and how we distribute it. Do we give out a blank cheque? Do we


maintain some similar pattern to what we have at the moment where


Brussels decides things and the nation state divvy it out and


maintain the day-to-day running of the scheme? Do we move that to


London, to the nation states? I think it will probably be


impractical to have Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales


all doing slightly different things. Isn't that devolution? With the


subsidy payments. That is the feeling that the NFU and the F2


watts at as well. -- and the FUW. You can't have a situation where


markets are being distorted. You wouldn't want Nicola Sturgeon giving


huge amount to support Scottish beef market if Wales was putting money


elsewhere, you don't want market distortion. You will get what we


already have now. That is the guarantee? The government have been


clear that no powers will be taken away. To be clear, we will come to


powers in a moment, with talking cash. Hard cash. Will that be in


your manifesto? I don't write the manifesto. You keep on ducking out.


All these is your -- assurances that will not be in the manifesto. I have


given you very straight answers. You're making it up, David. You're


making up policy. Do you fully accept Brexit like your leader? I


do. It is the good point to clarify, I'm bound to ask you as well because


yesterday when Laura Coombs big interviewed Jeremy Corbyn there was


a direct question which was, if there was a Labour government, are


you saying that we definitely come out of the EU. He found it difficult


to answer that question for some reason, he would not give that


specific assurance. It was clarified later by his office. What is your


take on that? We voted through the House of Commons and House of Lords,


there was a Labour whip on it, the people have spoken and we will be


coming out of the EU. Under a Labour government that is not in doubt? No.


It is about the conditions. And hopefully Jeremy Corbyn will find it


as easy to answer. The nice thing is that you are all offering me


guarantees on all kinds of things! Powers are very important. We are in


the last section of the programme, so your thoughts as a Liberal


Democrat about not just access to very important funds we have had in


the past but also what happens, as quite a few of you have raised,


about the power was coming back from Brussels? Will they stick at


Westminster for some of the bees and David has offered? What is your


perspective? I think there is a very real danger that this negotiation


process and the repatriation of powers might mask a power grab back


to Westminster powers that are currently in Wales. There may be


practical reasons why it is difficult to take powers, for


example without the funding that comes with it, and the two things


are linked. Looking at agriculture, we the powers over agriculture but


if we don't get the funding to deliver the agricultural payments,


that is a challenge. I want to come back to the point about ministerial


assurances because they are not quite what David Davis has told you.


Which ones? The assurance that funding will continue at the current


level, that is not correct. The assurance that Wales has been given


is that projects that are currently an already been signed off will be


funded. There is absolutely no future assurance for any of the


structural funds or indeed the agricultural funding that comes to


Wales. None of that has been assured, it is a very small envelope


of things which have been assured and there are still ongoing


negotiations about a particular project which the Welsh government


as I understand it is believed to have signed and that funding


envelope is still under question in many cases. Please, don't give us


assurances that are much more broadbrush than the reality. Have


you been overpromising, David? No George used as was clear about this.


I'm not the ministers is easy for everyone to say that I can't promise


anything. I can tell you what has been said. I can assure you that all


Conservative MPs as far as I'm aware have been clear that we want levels


of funding to stay the same, we don't want to throw people out of


the country, you won't find this stuff being said by any Conservative


MP. We want a smooth transition, we have not wasted the last year. We


could have left on the 24th of June, but instead the Conservative Party


under David Cameron and Theresa May have said that we should not rush


into this, to do in a responsible fashion. We may well spend another


two years negotiating and it doesn't matter because we will do this in a


smooth and sensible fashion. The powers that will be repatriated,


what will happen and what should happen to them? It is a matter of


taking back control. For those people who took that particular


phrase seriously, wanting to repay trade powers from Brussels, I don't


believe that they wanted to see those powers being brought back from


Westminster and given to Westminster when those powers are over devolved


areas already, agriculture, economic development and so on, they should


be coming back to Wales. I think it is section 4.2 of the great repeal


paper that says quite clearly that powers are in danger of going back


to Westminster with them being divvied out later. I don't accept


that the practical way forward. We have these two years, it was always


going to be that, that was way the Article 15 process works, and we


need an assurance that those powers, we need the working out of how they


will come straight back to the communities in Wales. -- Article 50.


Was Carwyn Jones right to talk about some sort of constitutional crisis,


if this repatriation doesn't work in the way he considers is right for


Wales? What you have to remember is when we went into the EU, devolution


did not exist. We are coming out to a different world, you can't go back


to what was there before. We do have a construct within the UK that


allows for a sample for a single market within the United Kingdom


that is not under the framework of the single market of Europe. We are


going to have to create a new construct and that means we will


have to have new kinds of relationships between the UK and we


will have to formulate a system, a mechanism, which actually respect


the devolution settlement that is already there are also so that he


will not see London undercutting Wales if they want to subsidise. You


have to make sure that the competition within the United


Kingdom works. What is important is that those powers should come back


to Wales first, where I think they legally should and RB based at the


moment if the UK Government wants them, they have to take is on and


take us to court. But it may be that after that we can pass back some


powers to the UK but it will be about us volunteering those powers


back from Wales. What kind of powers? For example, in the area of


agriculture we have to understand that it would make sense to have


some kind of system where there would be a mechanism where you could


only subsidise to a certain extent and you are not undercutting each


other. The Ukip view of that? Devolution is here to stay and the


devolved powers we already have we want to ensure that we retain them.


And obviously we want more powers, we want our tax raising element to


go ahead as well because what I would like to see is a low tax


economy in Wales so that we attract high earners to Wales so we can


stimulant the economy. Obviously in the interests of the people of Wales


it is important to make devolution work and to insist that we have all


our devolved powers back from the UK Government. And the extra power is


coming back from Brussels at the end of Brexit should all go to? Wales?


All that Wales is capable of managing but devolution can increase


as time goes on and I think that is what will happen. We are into the


last minute and I will give David a final say on this. There are powers


in Wales, in London, in Brussels, we will not take any powers away from


Wales. I recognised the referendum result on the EU, but those powers


that have come from Brussels, they will go back to London, we will not


take anything away from Wales and at some point some will go to Wales.


The Conservatives have devolved rather a lot of extra powers to


Wales in the last few years and they will not hesitate to do it further.


These are areas we already control. No you don't, Brussels controls them


and they have come to London. They are only a bit further up the


motorway now. What we have heard from Blaenau Gwent and other places


that people feel disempowered and the purpose of devolution was to put


power closer to the people. I want to see powers not only coming from


Westminster to Wales but also from the what assembly to our local


communities and authorities. This is a complex and long conversation but


we need a fundamental rethink about how the balance of powers will lie


between the nations of this country. Brussels has never willingly given


away powers but London has also it is about working collaboratively,


the UK Government with the Welsh government to ensure Wales


progresses along with the rest of the UK. It has been a very


interesting exchange! Thank you to all of you for coming in. Four weeks


to go and we will have another chap as the campaign goes on.


I'll be back next week with the second of our special


If you'd like to get in touch about that,


or if you'd like to be in the audience for a live


debate with the Welsh party leaders, email us.


The address is [email protected],


or use the social media hashtag thewalesreport.


But for now, diolch am wylio, a nos da.


Thanks for joining us, and good night.


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