Election Special: The Economy The Wales Report


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Election Special: The Economy

Heading towards the polls on June 8th, what are the main issues facing the Welsh economy? Huw Edwards and a panel of politicians discuss.


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Just over three weeks to go until the election of 2017,

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and we're talking about that vital matter -

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the state of the Welsh economy.

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In the second of our special election programmes,

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we'll be hearing from five parties and finding out what they have to

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offer you as polling day approaches.

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So stay with us for the Wales Report.

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A very good evening.

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Welcome to a special election edition of the Wales Report.

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So just over three weeks to go until election day on June 8th.

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This week sees the launch of some party manifestos,

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for the policies and commitments to try to make the Welsh economy

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prosper over the next five years.

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All the parties will be making a range of policy promises but just

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how effective will they be?

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And how will they pay for them?

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Don't forget, you can tell us what you think by getting

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in touch on social media.

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The hashtag is.

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And if you would like to be in the audience for a live leaders'

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debate taking place at the end of May, well get in touch.

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The e-mail is.

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Now before I introduce the guests who will be joining me this evening

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let's hear from some Welsh voters.

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We've been to Pontypridd to ask for views there

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on the state of the economy.

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You are stuck with the same pay.

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Obviously the minimum wage is going up, but you don't know

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what's going to happen really in the future.

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Because you can see poverty at the moment,

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it's just a dying town.

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I used to work there and that's gone, nothing.

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So it's a bit of a shame.

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You see all the valleys and all the towns, just

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going down and down.

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I feel the country's doing OK.

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I am a little bit concerned about coming out of Europe.

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But, you know, got to be optimistic.

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I think over the next 12 months I think things

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are going to get tough.

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To be honest with this Brexit and everything,

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it's the youngsters I worry about.

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My grandchildren, that's what I am more concerned about than myself.

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You have all these politicians coming at you in all directions,

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this, that, the other.

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Where is all this money coming from?

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Where?

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You know, marvellous ideas, but where is the money coming from,

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really coming from?

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Tell the truth.

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Is there money, is there not any money?

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That's all you want.

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Can they do this, can't they do that?

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I think people that earn more money should pay more tax.

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I worked all my life and to be honest I wonder sometimes why

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they say they haven't got money for this or that.

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Yet we paid into it for over 40 years.

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And it's a funny thing, they seem to find money for certain

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things and yet they tell us they can't find money

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for other things, things that I think are more important.

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I think everybody like myself, if you are working you are

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paying sufficient tax.

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Maybe they should look for cutting in other areas.

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I mean, we are taxed anyway, I am taxed quite heavy

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because I am pensionable.

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So no, I think it should be cut back from other areas where they're over

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spending on other things.

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I am not in agreement with higher taxes.

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I think that we've gone too much into a nanny state, if you like,

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it's like as if the Government is responsible for everything

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and I think that we need to be accountable for our own

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lives, as well.

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We have our deficit to pay off, and personally for the future

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of my children, etc, I am concerned.

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If it was my finances in my household, I would be looking

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at the amount we're actually borrowing and that's going up

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and I would be thinking we need to do something about that.

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I am going to be honest, it always seems they make promises

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when it's due for an election and then after they tell

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you that they haven't got the money to do it.

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You know, I don't see why they tell you that in the first place,

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why don't they tell you the truth and say things are going to be

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tough and I think people would accept it a lot more.

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And to be told one thing and then in a couple of months tell

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you they can't do it.

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I don't even know who I want to be for to be truthful, to me

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they're all the same.

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Well, our thanks to the people of Pontypridd for sharing

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their views with us.

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Now we asked each of the main parties in Wales to put forward

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a spokesperson for this programme.

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I am pleased to say that joining us tonight for the Liberal Democrats

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is Baroness Jenny Randerson.

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Nick Ramsay from the Conservative Party.

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For Labour, we have Wayne David.

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For Ukip, we have Gareth Bennett.

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And for Plaid Cymru, we have Adam Price and it's

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good to see you all.

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Thank you very much.

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We are looking ahead to a good invigorating exchange of views.

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Last week, with some colleagues of yours,

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we talked a lot about Brexit and the potential impact on Wales.

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I know that today's a busy day, some manifestos have

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been launched, as well.

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So we will pick up on some of that.

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Today's about the economy and priorities for the economy.

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Lots of things for us to discuss within that context.

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What I want to do first of all, so that viewers have a good idea

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of where you're coming from is to give each

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of you a chance, just a few sentences, outlining your big

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priority where the economy is concerned.

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Jenny first.

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Well, the first priority is to ensure that this economy

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here in Wales works for small businesses and allows

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small businesses to be established and flourish.

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Therefore, we have announced that we will be introducing

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an allowance for people establishing small businesses.

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?100 a week for six months, so that they can pay their basic

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living expenses whilst they set up their businesses.

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Now that should stimulate the small business community.

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There are a number of other things to assist them.

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In addition, the thing that Wales is crying out

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for is better infrastructure, better rail and road connections.

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Therefore, we have a large package, ?100 billion for the UK as a whole,

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of which the due proportion will come to Wales in order

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to improve our infrastructure, make it easier for people to get

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to and from home and work.

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We may talk what the due proportion is in a while, Jenny, thank you.

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Nick.

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On June 8th there is going to be a very simple choice put before

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the people of Wales and the people of the United Kingdom and that's

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going to be between carrying on with the solid and sound economic

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fiscal policies of the Conservatives that have been pursued over the last

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few years or throwing all that away and going down the Jeremy Corbyn

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tax, borrow and spend.

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So what's your economic priority?

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Our economic priority will be to make sure we carry on with that

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sound fiscal management.

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Yes, we still are borrowing but we are borrowing

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at a level that's reasonable.

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We do not want to see taxes go up in a way that would hinder

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the economy and hinder investment and projects like the City Deal

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in Wales, those must go forward, rail infrastructure,

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as Baroness Randerson said.

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Things like electrification of the main line.

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These are policies we really want to see.

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Thank you.

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Wayne.

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Over the last few years, as the people of Pontypridd have

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indicated, we've seen a country and economy run for the benefit

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of a small minority of people, the very rich and powerful.

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What we need in this country, in Britain as a whole,

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is an economic strategy which is for the many, not the few.

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That means intervene in the economy, mobilising people's expertise,

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their enthusiasm and creating a new kind of country

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here but also it's very important that we recognise that

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there is only one part of the United Kingdom which has

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a Labour Government at the moment, and that is here in Wales.

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That's why it's very important for us to promote

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what the Welsh Labour Government is doing and also the work

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of its leader, in particular Carwyn Jones, and how

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a Labour Government in London might enhance that work,

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might make it more effective still.

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We understand the campaign talk but I am wondering, give me

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a specific economic priority.

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What is it?

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What you want to do is achieve growth in this country

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and if we have much more growth then it's important, I think,

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to redistribute the wealth fairly so that everybody has a stake

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in our country.

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OK, thank you, Wayne.

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Gareth.

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I think it was interesting in the voxpop in Pontypridd,

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the first lady was remarking that wages had remained stagnant for many

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years and that's a big issue and we need to tackle that,

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but we also need to look at how small firms prosper, as Jenny said,

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because they are the backbone of the economy.

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I think one of the themes in coming here, I know you don't want to talk

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about Brexit overmuch, but one of the coming themes

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with Brexit may be striking the right balance between removing

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regulation to allow small businesses to flourish,

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whilst at the same time protecting a certain level of workers'

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rights, that would be country of the key things.

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whilst at the same time protecting a certain level of workers' rights,

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that would be one of the key things.

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Thank you very much, Adam.

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From my entire lifetime we have seen the economic gap between Wales

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and the rest of the United Kingdom get bigger and bigger,

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we have to reverse that decline.

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It's completely unacceptable that we see the extent of the economic...

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How do we do that?

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We need the biggest programme of investment that we've ever seen

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in our lifetime in Wales, a Marshall Plan, if you like,

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for the Welsh economy, a new Welsh deal.

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We have been at the end of the queue in terms of investment for too long.

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We need to reverse that and we also need to use

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the opportunities that will be there post-Brexit, as well.

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Tax levers, for example, that we wouldn't have been

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allowed to use while we're within the European Union.

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We could have a variable rate of VAT to help our tourism sector

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or to help our construction sector.

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Lower rates for corporation tax for those parts of the UK,

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like Wales, that deserve a competitive advantage so we can

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attract business here and also help those that are already here to grow.

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Thank you very much.

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You have raised lots of issues.

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It will be a miracle if we fit all of those in our programme.

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I am going to start with one of the biggest ticket issues,

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if you like, the biggest spending issues we have by far,

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which is the health service.

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And clearly, we're going to have to explain as the programme goes

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on there are issues, of course, which are devolved

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in terms of the UK.

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There are issues Westminster is no longer responsible for in Wales

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and I'm expecting you as well to be upfront about that when you talk

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about the policies that are maybe less relevant or more

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relevant to Wales.

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Let's talk about health.

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Jeremy Corbyn talking about an extra ?7.5 billion

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a year over five years, Wayne, for the health

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service in England.

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Yes.

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That's a very ambitious sum, talking about ?35 billion, at least.

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What would happen then, would there then be a complete

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imbalance in terms of the investment levels in England and in Wales?

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The first point I'd make is that we are in a situation

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already where there is a contrast between the health service in Wales

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and the health service in England.

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I would argue that there are many things being done in Wales

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which are very positive, compared to the privatisation, for

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example, we see apace in England.

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But the important thing to remember, I think, when we talk

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about resources is that most of the resources are coming

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into Wales, come from the bloc grant and what we will see under

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the Barnett Formula, which will be modified, we hope,

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but nevertheless it will be consequentials so Wales

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will get a share of that money which is decided

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by a British Government and we put it to good effect,

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as I believe Welsh Labour has been putting it to good effect already.

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OK.

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I am going to ask each of you about health and then maybe

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ask about how it's paid for because clearly if it's

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a ticket that's costing, I don't know, ?37 billion,

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there are issues there about how the money is raised.

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Nick, your thoughts here.

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Well, it's a shame that the Welsh Labour Government didn't protect

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the health budget at the time that the UK Government

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did and the previous coalition Government did,

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otherwise we wouldn't be playing catch-up.

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I listened carefully to what Wayne said.

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Of course everyone will welcome more investment in the NHS

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but it's vitally important that the Welsh Government

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passes that on here.

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Now I haven't heard a guarantee from them yet that they would.

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They certainly haven't over recent years.

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That has to be paid for, that 6-7 billion.

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How is it going to be paid for?

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There is currently a ?30 billion gap in Labour's spending plans.

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So, the electorate need to ask the Labour Party very carefully

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is this really going to happen?

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Is there going to be an investment and will it be passed on in Wales?

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The Conservative commitment, when I last looked, was an extra

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?10 billion into the NHS.

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This commitment is more like ?37 billion, so already we're

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looking at quite a big gulf between the two commitments.

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Are you saying that the ?37 billion makes sense?

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No, it doesn't make sense because if you look

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at the commitment to tuition fees Jeremy Corbyn has made,

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if you look at the commitment to the NHS, across the board,

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these add up to a huge sum of money.

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Now, you know, we'd all like to live in a land where Father Christmas

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would come along and give us all presents at Christmas and it

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wouldn't have to be paid for but at the end

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of the day this does have to be paid for so we need

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to have investment in our public services.

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We need to have investment in the NHS.

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But the electorate are real, they know that you can only do that

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gradually and you can only do that with the resources you have.

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It's a question of priorities, Adam, isn't it?

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Absolutely.

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It has to be a priority when we look at the pressures in terms

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of an ageing society.

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Then we can see, even within Wales, we should be by no means complacent.

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Look at the GP crisis that we have hitting many

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communities at the moment, the inability to recruit

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and retain in some cases, that sort of absolutely vital

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primary tier of care in a community and I think

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that the Welsh Government doesn't have a good story on this.

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What we have said is we need, as a matter of urgency,

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to have a costed detailed plan to recruit 1,000 extra doctors

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and 5,000 extra nurses, otherwise we won't be able to even

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keep up with the extent of pressure that we are seeing

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in our communities.

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What's your estimate to what that would cost?

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I mean, we have said it's about ?120 million on the doctors

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but you could save money, Huw.

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We pay ?100 million a year through agency fees at the moment

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because we don't have the salaried staff within the health service.

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It's madness.

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Jenny, what are your thoughts on this?

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Well, we've announced that we will put a penny on income

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tax specifically for the NHS.

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That would mean ?350 million a year coming in addition to Wales

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from that alone and our view is that we have to concentrate,

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not just on the health service but also on mental health

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facilities, give it parity with physical health problems.

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Most important of all, in terms of that additional money,

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is the link between, the interface between NHS and social

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care because there are far too many people sitting,

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lying in beds in hospitals, who actually could go home.

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They want to go home.

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They want the social care, but that link isn't there.

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That is increasingly a very important issue which maybe people

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have been rather slow to latch on to in recent years.

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You brought the tax up, the tax issue up and I think it's

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a good moment for us to jsut talk about that because the Lib Dems

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are openingly going into a campaign saying -

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we think there should be more money on health,

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we're going to put a penny on income tax.

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Very quickly, are you finding that that's a popular

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policy on the doorsteps?

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Yes, we are because people, first of all, admire us -

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picking up the theme from the film earlier on - people

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admire us for the fact that we are being upfront.

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They put the NHS absolutely at their top of list of priorities

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and they realise that it's under huge pressure anyway.

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That Brexit will mean we have fewer EU doctors and nurses,

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4,000 of them are in Wales at the moment, many

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of them would leave.

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That would be a huge crisis.

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So that's people realising there's a crisis and they admire us

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for the fact that we have been absolutely upfront.

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Jenny, you have a Lib Dem in Government in Wales,

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you could put that tax rate up in Wales now.

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So why don't you do it?

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If you want to actually use a hypothecated 1p on the basic rate

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to actually help the NHS, why don't you do it in the only

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part of the UK where you're in Government?

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Is that Plaid Cymru's policy as well?

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I think we should explore these ideas.

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So it's not your policy?

0:16:470:16:49

We have a parliamentary inquiry into this whole question of how

0:16:490:16:51

we build a long-term future.

0:16:510:16:52

It's an election, Adam, you've got a manifesto, so why

0:16:520:16:55

aren't you putting that forward?

0:16:550:16:56

We certainly support - I think that we have to address

0:16:560:16:59

the basic inequality in our society before we talk about raising

0:16:590:17:01

the basic rate of income tax.

0:17:010:17:03

OK.

0:17:030:17:04

You can't put tax up at a time when people are facing pressure.

0:17:040:17:07

You've got to do - That is part of the debate, isn't it?

0:17:070:17:10

Absolutely.

0:17:100:17:11

Wayne, you're in a position where your party again is being,

0:17:110:17:14

you know, very open about this.

0:17:140:17:16

Reintroducing a 50p top rate for very high earners,

0:17:160:17:18

shifting maybe that threshold for the 45p rate.

0:17:180:17:22

So you're going into this campaign actually proposing much higher tax

0:17:220:17:25

increases than Jenny?

0:17:250:17:28

The important thing I would emphasise, right

0:17:280:17:30

at the start of this discussion, is that Britain is an

0:17:300:17:33

extremely unequal society.

0:17:330:17:36

We have the richest society, one of the richest in the world,

0:17:360:17:39

but the wealth is held by a small minority.

0:17:390:17:42

One of the (inaudible) over the last few years is that the rich have

0:17:420:17:46

been getting richer.

0:17:460:17:47

What we propose is, yes, taxation for people earning ?80,000

0:17:470:17:49

and above, but no taxation for the rest of the people.

0:17:490:17:52

What we want to see is those resources going, above all else,

0:17:520:17:55

into the National Health Service, and that is absolutely crucial.

0:17:550:17:59

It's those people in those higher incomes who invest in the economy.

0:17:590:18:02

When will the Labour Party learn that if you take too much money out

0:18:020:18:05

of those salaries at the top end, then there is less

0:18:050:18:08

investment to go around?

0:18:080:18:09

But, there's massive discrepancies in this country

0:18:090:18:12

and they're getting ever wider.

0:18:120:18:14

We cannot live in that kind of unequality society.

0:18:140:18:16

Society's breaking apart because of those extremes

0:18:160:18:20

and what we have to do is create a more equal society, with equality

0:18:200:18:22

of opportunity being at the top.

0:18:220:18:25

OK, Gareth, what's your perspective on this?

0:18:250:18:26

So we have a penny on the basic rate that Jenny's talking about.

0:18:260:18:30

We have a very different policy actually from Labour,

0:18:300:18:32

which is to do with reintrodeucing a 50p top rate and changing

0:18:320:18:36

the threshold for the 45.

0:18:360:18:43

Where's Ukip?

0:18:430:18:53

-- reintroducing.

0:18:540:18:55

Well, I think with taxation - before I go on to Ukip -

0:18:550:18:59

I think we need to look carefully at what the eventualal tax take

0:18:590:19:02

is going to be because there has been a lot of research into this

0:19:020:19:05

over the years.

0:19:050:19:06

We've had Labour governments in the past which have had high tax

0:19:060:19:09

rates, there is a point at which the actual revenue goes

0:19:090:19:12

down because at some point, the people who are affected by those

0:19:120:19:15

high tax rates take more action, in terms of tax avoidance or simply

0:19:150:19:18

shifting their money to another country and we are in a very

0:19:180:19:20

mobile, global economy now where people can do that.

0:19:200:19:23

So I think the voters would have to be very wary of thinking

0:19:230:19:26

about electing a high tax Labour government.

0:19:260:19:27

Is the tax take ultimately going to go up overall with those

0:19:270:19:31

plans or would it actually go down, that is a possibility?

0:19:310:19:33

OK.

0:19:330:19:34

That's an argument that, you know, we're familiar with.

0:19:340:19:36

I'm wondering, so Ukip's position on this is -

0:19:360:19:38

if you're going to fund very big investment, for example

0:19:380:19:41

in the health service, what is your tax policy behind that,

0:19:410:19:43

how do you fund it?

0:19:430:19:45

Well, the funding for the health service can come through

0:19:450:19:47

a variety of sources.

0:19:470:19:48

Adam mentioned the waste of money on agency staff and connecting

0:19:480:19:51

that to what Jenny said about the potential loss

0:19:510:19:53

of doctors and nurses who are from abroad,

0:19:530:19:55

ultimately, we need to train more of our own doctors and nurses to cut

0:19:550:19:58

down on the waste of agency staff.

0:19:580:20:00

So we need to look more at vocational training in those areas.

0:20:000:20:03

There is also the issue of the foreign aid budget.

0:20:030:20:05

Why are we giving such large amounts of money in foreign aid

0:20:050:20:08

when we are massively in debt as a country.

0:20:080:20:10

Surely that money should be redirected into areas

0:20:100:20:12

like the health service.

0:20:120:20:13

There is also potentially an ?8 billion per year Brexit dividend.

0:20:130:20:16

That is the net contribution we make to the EU budget,

0:20:160:20:18

some of that could be channelled into the health budget.

0:20:180:20:21

Going back to what Wayne referred to as the privatisation

0:20:210:20:25

of the health service in England, I'm not sure exactly

0:20:250:20:27

what area he's referring to with the term "privatisation",

0:20:270:20:32

but it was Gordon Brown, when when was running the Treasury

0:20:320:20:35

for the Labour Government, who brought in PFI's.

0:20:350:20:44

So that, to some people, is part privatisation

0:20:450:20:47

of the health service.

0:20:470:20:48

The health service is still burdened with massive debts

0:20:480:20:50

because of those PFI agreements.

0:20:500:20:51

Just to be clear - sorry, I'll just clear this up

0:20:510:21:00

and then I'll come - is Ukip going into this election

0:21:000:21:02

saying that it will cut taxes or put them up?

0:21:020:21:05

Not just to do with the health service but, basically,

0:21:050:21:07

broadly in terms of Government spending programmes.

0:21:070:21:09

What's the Ukip policy here on tax?

0:21:090:21:11

The Ukip policy on tax?

0:21:110:21:12

Yes?

0:21:120:21:13

Well, I'm sorry to sound rather biennial, but you would have

0:21:130:21:15

to wait for the manifesto, but I would say there has

0:21:150:21:28

been attention in Ukip - as in all political parties -

0:21:280:21:30

between the different view points.

0:21:300:21:31

Traditionally, Ukip is more of a libertarian party,

0:21:310:21:32

kind of economically on the right.

0:21:320:21:32

So I would say the idea of bringing in higher tax rates probably

0:21:320:21:35

would go against the Ukip ethos.

0:21:350:21:41

I perfectly understand the manifesto point

0:21:410:21:42

which you made very reasonably.

0:21:420:21:43

However, you've given us a hint actually, Gareth,

0:21:430:21:45

but why don't you just underline your view on it?

0:21:450:21:48

If you were in charge of the policy then, going into this manifesto,

0:21:480:21:51

what would be your guidance?

0:21:510:21:52

Well, I'm not somebody who mixes with billionaires on yachts

0:21:520:21:54

and things like that, as people like Peter Mandelson

0:21:540:21:57

in the Labour Party did.

0:21:570:21:58

What's that got to do with your tax policy?

0:21:580:22:00

I will connect it, Huw.

0:22:000:22:01

Possibly, I'll think about giving - No.

0:22:010:22:03

Some guidance, where are you coming from on tax?

0:22:030:22:05

Well, if it was proven - well, you can't prove these things.

0:22:050:22:08

If you have strong impirical evidence that if you raise these tax

0:22:080:22:11

bands it would give us a better tax take and we could then

0:22:110:22:14

divert that into the areas like the health service,

0:22:140:22:16

I would be all in favour of it, but I'm very sceptical.

0:22:160:22:19

But a penny on income tax, we all know the basic

0:22:190:22:21

rate, Gareth, there's no debate about this.

0:22:210:22:23

OK.

0:22:230:22:24

That'll yield you at least ?4 billion.

0:22:240:22:26

We know that'll happen.

0:22:260:22:27

That would therefore be worth considering.

0:22:270:22:28

That would be worthy of consideration.

0:22:280:22:30

Your thoughts on that, Nick?

0:22:300:22:31

It goes back to my earlier comments that there's a very clear choice

0:22:310:22:34

for the British people on the 8th June, and the Welsh

0:22:340:22:37

people on the 8th June, between the Welsh Conservatives

0:22:370:22:39

and all the other parties.

0:22:390:22:40

My party's manifesto hasn't been published yet,

0:22:400:22:42

but I can quite categorically say that we do not intend to raise

0:22:420:22:45

taxes on higher rate earners or medium earners.

0:22:450:22:47

Clearly, the implication of that is, you'll have less money

0:22:470:22:49

to invest in the health service, for example?

0:22:490:22:51

Well, over time, of course, as the deficit comes down,

0:22:510:22:53

then we have more money anyway.

0:22:530:22:55

But what you can't do - I mean, this idea that you can lower

0:22:550:22:58

the threshold of the 45p rate down to...

0:22:580:23:00

40p down to 80,000 and not have an effect on the economy,

0:23:000:23:03

that would be highly detrimental.

0:23:030:23:04

At the end of the day, there will not be enough

0:23:040:23:07

money to pay for that.

0:23:070:23:08

If Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have their way,

0:23:080:23:11

then ultimately the tax burden will fall on the lower

0:23:110:23:14

rates as well.

0:23:140:23:17

It always has in the past under Labour and it would again.

0:23:170:23:20

No.

0:23:200:23:21

I'll come to Wayne.

0:23:210:23:22

Jenny.

0:23:220:23:23

Well, Wales is the poorest part of the UK and in Wales, from the EU,

0:23:230:23:27

we have benefitted to the tune of well over ?600

0:23:270:23:30

per person, per year.

0:23:300:23:34

That money's been invested in our young people.

0:23:340:23:36

It's been invested in infrastructure.

0:23:360:23:37

In 17,000 jobs created, for example.

0:23:370:23:42

Now, you know, I want to pick Gareth up on the bonanza

0:23:420:23:45

that is going to come when we leave the EU.

0:23:450:23:47

In your dreams, Gareth.

0:23:470:23:51

You know, that money is going to be sorely missed in Wales and I have

0:23:510:23:55

absolutely no confidence that a Conservative-run UK Government

0:23:550:23:57

will be replacing that money.

0:23:570:24:05

Before you bring either the Conservatives or Ukip in here,

0:24:050:24:09

let's remember actually what we were promised.

0:24:090:24:13

?680 million a year that Wales currently gets from the EU.

0:24:130:24:17

We were told that we wouldn't lose a penny on that and of course,

0:24:170:24:27

remember the famous bus, the ?350 million a week in Wales,

0:24:280:24:31

that's another ?17 million a week.

0:24:310:24:32

Put the two together, that's ?30 million a week

0:24:320:24:34

that we were promised as a result of leaving the European Union.

0:24:340:24:37

Where is the money?

0:24:370:24:40

Where is the promises in either of your two manifestos?

0:24:400:24:42

?30 million a week.

0:24:420:24:43

I mean, that's building a new District General Hospital

0:24:430:24:46

for Wales every month etc.

0:24:460:24:47

Where is the investment?

0:24:470:24:52

Adam, there's no point re-running the arguments

0:24:520:24:54

of the referendum a year ago.

0:24:540:24:55

The people have spoken, the choice has been made.

0:24:550:24:58

We've a very simple principle in a democracy, OK -

0:24:580:25:01

promises made to the people should not be broken.

0:25:010:25:04

You know, if you do that, if you allow that to happen,

0:25:040:25:07

then we lose all basis of trust in our democratic system.

0:25:070:25:09

Make your point, Wayne, then I'll come to you.

0:25:090:25:13

This election is about choice, it's between whether or not

0:25:130:25:16

you have a Labour Government or a Conservative Government.

0:25:160:25:19

The important thing to stress is that the emphasis

0:25:190:25:21

is very, very clear.

0:25:210:25:23

As far as the Conservatives are concerned, they want business

0:25:230:25:26

as usual, a continuation of what we've had in the past.

0:25:260:25:29

The rich getting richer.

0:25:290:25:30

The National Health Service being starved of resources.

0:25:300:25:34

If you want to see a fairer society and the NHS being developed

0:25:340:25:38

on the basis of an Aneurin Bevan, then people in Wales

0:25:380:25:40

have to vote Labour.

0:25:400:25:41

That's the clear choice.

0:25:410:25:45

...Frankly are irrelevant.

0:25:450:25:46

It's a clear choice between Welsh Labour

0:25:460:25:47

or the Conservatives.

0:25:470:25:49

You're making that point very clearly.

0:25:490:25:50

I'm just wondering, given that this was said

0:25:500:25:53

in the context of European money, so Labour's going into this campaign

0:25:530:25:56

saying what about the money that Wales potentially could lose coming

0:25:560:25:59

out of the EU, that you'll make it up?

0:25:590:26:01

That Wales won't be at a loss at all, is that you're saying?

0:26:010:26:09

Indeed.

0:26:090:26:10

That's right, yes.

0:26:100:26:11

So you're promising Wales ?30 million a week,

0:26:110:26:13

as a result of this?

0:26:130:26:14

We are maintaining our commitment to ensure that Wales continues

0:26:140:26:17

to get the resources from the European Union and,

0:26:170:26:19

more over, make sure that those resources are not channelled -

0:26:190:26:22

Wayne, I put a figure on it, let's hear your figure?

0:26:220:26:24

What is Wales going to get?

0:26:240:26:26

I think it's impossible to give a precise figure.

0:26:260:26:28

Typical!

0:26:280:26:34

The principle initially was that whatever Wales would lose would be

0:26:340:26:38

made up by Westminster, a combination of Westminster

0:26:380:26:40

and some other means.

0:26:400:26:41

Indeed.

0:26:410:26:42

So, is that the commitment?

0:26:420:26:44

The money from Europe will be made up whatever it is.

0:26:440:26:48

We don't know precisely how much that figure will be because we don't

0:26:480:26:51

know the exit arrangements which have yet to be negotiated,

0:26:510:26:54

but we will make up the resources which would have been coming

0:26:540:26:58

from the European Union and we'll make sure that those resources go

0:26:580:27:01

into the areas of need and are not channelled off to relatively

0:27:010:27:04

rich parts of Wales, as the Conservatives

0:27:040:27:05

would want to do.

0:27:050:27:06

Let's get Jenny in.

0:27:060:27:07

Jenny.

0:27:070:27:08

Well, of course, Labour waved the white flag on leaving the EU

0:27:080:27:11

and Brexit many months ago when they decided to

0:27:110:27:13

vote along with Ukip and the Conservatives

0:27:130:27:15

for Article 50.

0:27:150:27:17

I'd love to see this money tree that Jeremy Corbyn

0:27:170:27:19

and the Labour Party are going to get their

0:27:190:27:22

money from because.

0:27:220:27:24

Well, taxes is part of the picture, they've explained that.

0:27:240:27:26

But they are tying up massive amounts of money in a big programme

0:27:260:27:34

of renationalisation.

0:27:340:27:36

I wanted to come on to that.

0:27:360:27:38

Look at the processes for renationalisation.

0:27:380:27:39

You buy the shares of the people who own the current

0:27:390:27:41

utilities and so on.

0:27:410:27:42

You buy the shares off them.

0:27:420:27:46

You're opposed to public ownership for lots of these big industries ?

0:27:460:27:52

You are therefore giving money to the well off, who own the shares,

0:27:520:27:55

which could otherwise be spent on the NHS, on our education

0:27:550:27:58

service, on the things that the people in areas

0:27:580:28:00

like Pontypridd want to see flourishing.

0:28:000:28:03

I'll let Wayne and others answer this.

0:28:030:28:05

But surely, Jenny, there'll be people in your party who take

0:28:050:28:08

the view as well that, for example, a natural resource

0:28:080:28:10

like water shouldn't be in private hands.

0:28:100:28:12

I know the picture in Wales, with Dwr Cymru,

0:28:120:28:14

is slightly different.

0:28:140:28:16

Yes.

0:28:160:28:17

The policy in England with Labour is to do with English

0:28:170:28:20

regional water companies, but it's a very, very big policy

0:28:200:28:22

with clear implications for other parts of the UK.

0:28:220:28:24

So your Lib Dem perspective on that?

0:28:240:28:27

A natural resource, like water, should be

0:28:270:28:29

in public or private hands?

0:28:290:28:30

Well, to be honest, we are not that hung up on the idea

0:28:300:28:33

of whether something is in public or private hands as long as it

0:28:330:28:36

works efficiently...

0:28:360:28:38

Even a vital national resource?

0:28:380:28:39

..and effectively.

0:28:390:28:41

Now, we would not have privatised the water industry,

0:28:410:28:43

but we are where we are and we are in a situation of crisis

0:28:430:28:48

in our economy, a situation where wages are going down,

0:28:480:28:50

where money is very short.

0:28:500:28:54

So that shouldn't be a priority?

0:28:540:28:56

You have to choose what your priorities are.

0:28:560:28:58

Wayne, there's a big question on this of course which is,

0:28:580:29:00

given that we're going into this UK general election, what is the price

0:29:000:29:03

tag attached to privatising these water companies in England

0:29:030:29:07

because there doesn't seem to be a lot of detail around

0:29:070:29:09

that and it's a very, very big number, isn't it?

0:29:090:29:12

It's a very big commitment?

0:29:120:29:13

Yes, and I think the fine detail is yet to be worked out.

0:29:130:29:16

The principle is established firmly in the manifesto however.

0:29:160:29:19

We believe water is such an important resource that it

0:29:190:29:21

shouldn't be up to private venture to handle that.

0:29:210:29:26

It should be something which belonged to the people,

0:29:260:29:28

belongs to the nation.

0:29:280:29:29

It didn't bother previous Labour governments?

0:29:290:29:30

Well, I think it's important to recognise that we've got

0:29:300:29:33

a radical manifesto now and we're impirically learning from what has

0:29:330:29:36

happened in the past.

0:29:360:29:38

It's very, very important that we have a partnership in this

0:29:380:29:41

country between a dynamic private-sector, but also a public

0:29:410:29:44

sector which acts on behalf of the country as a whole.

0:29:440:29:47

It's not the only project, is it?

0:29:470:29:49

I mean you're talking about National Grid, you're talking

0:29:490:29:51

about the rail network.

0:29:510:29:52

I mean, these are exceptionally ambitious commitments and people

0:29:520:29:54

are quite rightly saying, if you're talking about

0:29:540:29:56

a fully costed manifesto, you can't go into a manifesto

0:29:560:29:59

without properly costed numbers.

0:29:590:30:02

They are ambitious.

0:30:020:30:05

As far as the electricity industry is concerned,

0:30:050:30:09

what is being suggested is not old fashioned nationalisation,

0:30:090:30:12

but a new form of public ownership and intervention.

0:30:120:30:15

As far as the railways are concerned, it's not been

0:30:150:30:18

suggested that on day one or day five or whatever, that

0:30:180:30:20

the railways will suddenly come into public hands.

0:30:200:30:31

It'll be a gradual thing.

0:30:310:30:32

What's been suggested is a gradual programme where the franchises

0:30:320:30:39

for different railway companies in different parts of the country

0:30:390:30:41

come to an end, then the state will take them over.

0:30:410:30:46

We are still waiting for your manifesto, of course.

0:30:460:30:48

You have a slight advantage on this one.

0:30:480:30:50

I am wondering, from your point of view when you see a policy

0:30:500:30:53

like privatising the rail network which by all accounts -

0:30:530:30:55

sorry nationalising, taking back into public ownership,

0:30:550:30:57

when you see that policy by all accounts is a popular one,

0:30:570:31:00

do you have second thoughts about whether you have

0:31:000:31:02

got that right?

0:31:020:31:03

No, because the situation is, we are where we are,

0:31:030:31:06

as Jenny said, and first of all, we have the commitment

0:31:060:31:08

to privatising the railways, now the commitment to privatising

0:31:080:31:10

- sorry nationalising...

0:31:100:31:11

It's you now!

0:31:110:31:21

Nationalising railways, water, having some arrangement,

0:31:280:31:29

we are not clear yet with the National Grid.

0:31:290:31:31

What strikes me, if the Government puts money into all of these areas,

0:31:310:31:34

that's money that isn't going into infrastructure

0:31:340:31:36

we need to improve.

0:31:360:31:37

So gradually, the money tax situation you are proposing

0:31:370:31:39

will make the economy worse.

0:31:390:31:40

There'll be less money overall and you'll be spending what we do

0:31:400:31:43

have on these priorities that are not the priorities

0:31:430:31:45

of the public.

0:31:450:31:46

It is like return to the 1980s.

0:31:460:31:48

It's not the strong and stable leadership we need.

0:31:480:31:50

It's Corbyn-omics.

0:31:500:31:51

You don't think a publicly owned railway is popular?

0:31:510:31:53

Yes, exactly.

0:31:530:31:54

No, I think at the moment if you ask the public

0:31:540:31:57

where would you like the railways to be, national or private?

0:31:570:32:00

You may well in one poll get, oh, well, it would be nice

0:32:000:32:03

if it was in the national sector.

0:32:030:32:06

If you say to them would you rather have an improved public transport

0:32:060:32:09

system, would you rather have an improved infrastructure

0:32:090:32:11

and do you really mind at the end of that whether it's privatised

0:32:110:32:14

or nationalised, the public will opt for an improved infrastructure.

0:32:140:32:16

Adam.

0:32:160:32:20

I remember, you know, when I was an MP and we were both

0:32:200:32:23

MPs together in Westminster, you know, your Government then

0:32:230:32:26

was arguing totally against these ideas of public ownership

0:32:260:32:28

which Plaid Cymru were promoting.

0:32:280:32:32

If you actually believe in the public ownership

0:32:320:32:35

of the railways, why is your own Government in Wales

0:32:350:32:37

actually negotiating with four global private companies?

0:32:370:32:40

Why doesn't it say, let's actually reject them,

0:32:400:32:45

let's have a public sector, publicly owned rail franchisee.

0:32:450:32:47

Why are you negotiating a franchise over 18 years?

0:32:470:32:53

There are massive resource implications to that, Adam.

0:32:530:32:59

That's nonsense, and you know it's nonsense.

0:32:590:33:00

In terms of resources you save money because instead of putting profit

0:33:000:33:09

into the pockets of these global companies you actually maintain it

0:33:090:33:19

Once again it's an example, isn't it, of the Labour Party

0:33:210:33:24

assaying one thing in its British manifesto under Jeremy Corbyn

0:33:240:33:26

and doing an entirely different thing here in Wales.

0:33:260:33:28

The kind of thing that gives politics a bad name.

0:33:280:33:30

The reality, Wales hasn't got the powers to do

0:33:300:33:33

what Adam is talking about.

0:33:330:33:34

And that's why Labour has...

0:33:340:33:35

That's not true.

0:33:350:33:36

...arguing for more devolution.

0:33:360:33:37

Gareth is listening very carefully.

0:33:370:33:38

I am just wondering, on this principle of taking some

0:33:380:33:41

of these big industries back into public ownership,

0:33:410:33:42

what's your stance on that?

0:33:420:33:44

Well, I'm glad that Wayne saw the value of empirical evidence

0:33:440:33:46

but perhaps he wasn't being empirical enough

0:33:460:33:48

because in the 60s and 70s we had a whole era of

0:33:480:33:51

Conservative Governments denationalising things.

0:33:510:33:52

Labour governments coming in and renationalising them.

0:33:520:33:54

My father worked in the steel industry.

0:33:540:33:55

It was nationalised in 1949.

0:33:550:33:57

It was privatised in 1953.

0:33:570:34:00

It was nationalised again in the late 60s and then

0:34:000:34:02

it was privatised again.

0:34:020:34:04

The cost of all of this toing and froing must have been absurd.

0:34:040:34:10

It's taking resources out of the economy and this argument

0:34:100:34:14

was essentially won by Mrs Thatcher in the 80s and it was a done deal

0:34:140:34:18

that the nationalised industries didn't work,

0:34:180:34:20

they were grossly inefficient.

0:34:200:34:22

They didn't respond to customer need and that was why they got scrapped

0:34:220:34:27

and why we had a whole era of acceptance, political consent

0:34:270:34:30

in the private sector and even the Labour Government only got

0:34:300:34:38

in in '97 under Blair with the consent that there

0:34:380:34:40

would be privatised...

0:34:400:34:41

Sorry, Wayne.

0:34:410:34:42

It has been said by the Conservative Party that Ukip

0:34:420:34:45

is a Conservative Party mark II.

0:34:450:34:47

I think those comments prove that conclusively.

0:34:470:34:51

Isn't it sad that the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru are so busy arguing

0:34:510:34:55

these arguments of the past about nationalisation,

0:34:550:34:58

privatisation, let's move on.

0:34:580:35:00

Let's put the investment in the economy in our public

0:35:000:35:03

services because if you carry on like this, we're

0:35:030:35:05

going to go nowhere.

0:35:050:35:06

Let's talk about the future.

0:35:060:35:08

I referenced at the start of the programme the fact

0:35:080:35:17

that we have new possibilities, new opportunities as we come out

0:35:170:35:20

of the European Union which would be hugely useful in terms of actually

0:35:200:35:23

renewing and rebuilding the Welsh economy.

0:35:230:35:24

The power to set our own differential rates

0:35:240:35:26

for certain sectors in VAT and tourism and construction.

0:35:260:35:29

The power to have a variable corporation tax rate

0:35:290:35:31

which would give Wales a competitive advantage so we can

0:35:310:35:34

actually bring business here and build the ones we have.

0:35:340:35:36

Are you going to give us those powers?

0:35:360:35:38

The UK Government has given Wales loads of powers.

0:35:380:35:44

When Plaid Cymru was in power with the Welsh Government we didn't

0:35:440:35:46

see much action then.

0:35:460:35:47

Answer the question that's put to you.

0:35:470:35:50

Those specific tax levers which would be incredibly useful

0:35:500:35:58

are you going to give them to us?

0:35:580:36:00

in terms of building up the Welsh economy,

0:36:000:36:02

are you going to give them to us?

0:36:020:36:04

We're already getting taxation powers next April.

0:36:040:36:06

We're already getting income tax.

0:36:060:36:07

I am talking about economic powers, business taxation.

0:36:070:36:09

You don't want to use the powers you have got.

0:36:090:36:11

I tell you what, I am glad you have recognised that Brexit is happening

0:36:110:36:15

and there's only one party and one Prime Minister that will deliver

0:36:150:36:18

the full benefits of Brexit that the Welsh Government will then

0:36:180:36:20

be able to maximise the advantages of and that's Theresa May

0:36:200:36:23

and the Conservative Party.

0:36:230:36:24

Let's pause for a second.

0:36:240:36:25

The viewers will get slightly impatient.

0:36:250:36:27

We have a few minutes left.

0:36:270:36:28

I want to - you brought up the issue of leadership.

0:36:280:36:31

That's a very good area for us I think to bring

0:36:310:36:33

this to a conclusion.

0:36:330:36:34

The question of leadership.

0:36:340:36:35

Theresa May's been accused of being slightly reluctant to meet voters.

0:36:350:36:38

Yesterday she certainly met a voter in Abingdon who said what's happened

0:36:380:36:41

to welfare benefits?

0:36:410:36:42

I am down to ?100 a month with all the welfare changes.

0:36:420:36:45

I didn't like it.

0:36:450:36:46

I mean, it was quite a memorable encounter simply because we haven't

0:36:460:36:49

had many encounters of that kind.

0:36:490:36:50

What is Theresa May offering beyond the phrase "strong

0:36:500:36:55

and stable" in this campaign?

0:36:550:36:56

Theresa May has been out and about since this election kicked

0:36:560:36:59

off and before meeting voters across the country.

0:36:590:37:01

Conservative voters.

0:37:010:37:02

Not only Conservative voters.

0:37:020:37:03

Let Nick answer.

0:37:030:37:06

As Huw said, we saw her meeting that voter and answering those issues.

0:37:060:37:09

I don't think she was a Conservative voter!

0:37:090:37:12

The job of being Prime Minister is incredibly difficult.

0:37:120:37:16

This Government and the previous coalition Government had a hell

0:37:160:37:19

of a task to accomplish and of course there are people out

0:37:190:37:23

there who are going to find that the policies have meant

0:37:230:37:26

that there have been reductions in spending which has affected them.

0:37:260:37:29

But we have to look beyond that.

0:37:290:37:32

We have to look to the long-term and the only way that we can

0:37:320:37:35

lift this country up, particularly once we leave

0:37:350:37:37

the European Union, the only way we can do that is with -

0:37:370:37:40

I will avoid the term strong and stable leadership -

0:37:400:37:43

I probably just used it again!

0:37:430:37:44

The only way is by sound economic management.

0:37:440:37:46

If we can't get the economy right, we can't get anything else right.

0:37:460:37:49

Wayne, here's the tough question which is, do you think Jeremy Corbyn

0:37:490:37:52

would make a good Prime Minister?

0:37:520:37:53

Yes, I do.

0:37:530:37:54

I mean, Jeremy and myself have had differences in the past.

0:37:540:37:57

You are a master of understatement.

0:37:570:37:58

He is not my favourite person.

0:37:580:38:00

The important thing is it's about choice.

0:38:000:38:02

This is about choice, it's about comparisons and if you compare

0:38:020:38:07

what Jeremy Corbyn stands for, compared with Theresa May, there

0:38:070:38:09

is no choice at all, in my view.

0:38:090:38:12

He is a principled, decent man.

0:38:120:38:13

But the important thing here in Wales is that we've got

0:38:130:38:16

Carwyn Jones as the leader of Welsh Labour...

0:38:160:38:18

You are embarrassed of Jeremy Corbyn, aren't you?

0:38:180:38:20

...that's important to include as part of the equation,

0:38:200:38:24

it's Welsh Labour and Carwyn Jones is our leader.

0:38:240:38:26

What's Carwyn Jones got to do with this election, I thought

0:38:260:38:28

it was a Westminster election.

0:38:280:38:30

He is nothing to do with this, is he...

0:38:300:38:32

Because the policies decided in Westminster,

0:38:320:38:34

many of them will be devolved to Wales and it's important

0:38:340:38:36

to examine, like for health service, what's going to be done in Wales

0:38:360:38:39

with those extra resources.

0:38:390:38:40

That's why it's important.

0:38:400:38:41

It sounds like you are putting Carwyn Jones out front so that

0:38:410:38:44

Corbyn can hide behind him in Wales.

0:38:440:38:48

The reality, the most important leader in Wales is Carwyn Jones

0:38:480:38:51

and he is heading our campaign.

0:38:510:38:52

That's the reality.

0:38:520:38:53

Let's talk about Ukip's leadership.

0:38:530:39:01

Where's Ukip leadership in your estimation,

0:39:010:39:03

your own party leadership?

0:39:030:39:04

Well, our party leader is Paul Nuttall and I don't think

0:39:040:39:06

that people really think that we are a genuine party

0:39:060:39:10

of Government realistically, so we're not talking about putting

0:39:100:39:13

Paul Nuttall into Number 10, that would be rather odd if I tried

0:39:130:39:16

to make a case for that.

0:39:160:39:19

What Ukip has to be is a strong pressure group with parliamentary

0:39:190:39:23

representation so that we do hold the Government to account over

0:39:230:39:26

Brexit and we do get the kind of Brexit that the Leave voters

0:39:260:39:29

voted for, that's where we are with Ukip.

0:39:290:39:31

What's the point of people voting for Paul Nuttall if you don't

0:39:310:39:34

intend to be in power?

0:39:340:39:35

We would love to be in power but we're hardly likely to win

0:39:350:39:39

a majority of 650 seats, that would be...

0:39:390:39:40

So you could allow Jeremy Corbyn in?

0:39:400:39:46

He could allow Jeremy Corbyn in...

0:39:460:39:48

Well, we have a first-past-the-post system, so I understand the point

0:39:480:39:50

that you are making, it would be dangerous

0:39:500:39:52

to vote for anything other than the Tories to let Corbyn in.

0:39:520:39:55

I suppose ultimately the electoral...

0:39:550:39:56

Both sides of the same coin.

0:39:560:40:00

Many critics say you kind of joined forces anyway.

0:40:000:40:02

That's the reality.

0:40:020:40:03

That's the claim being made.

0:40:030:40:04

Adam, leadership, what is Leanne Wood offering in this campaign?

0:40:040:40:08

Well, you know, Nick referred to our country,

0:40:080:40:10

my country is Wales, you know.

0:40:100:40:12

The question I ask - who's going to speak up for us?

0:40:120:40:15

You know, Nicola Sturgeon is there for Scotland,

0:40:150:40:19

Theresa May may be a strong leader for England, but who

0:40:190:40:21

will speak for Wales?

0:40:210:40:24

You know, we hear Leanne, standing up there, speaking

0:40:240:40:28

in that working-class, authentic Welsh voice,

0:40:280:40:30

and I think it's resonating right across the whole of Wales

0:40:300:40:33

at the moment.

0:40:330:40:34

Because, you know, at the moment, we're invisible.

0:40:340:40:36

We're invisible in the political landscape.

0:40:360:40:40

We have to plant our Welsh flag on the 8th June and Leanne

0:40:400:40:43

is the one to lead us forward.

0:40:430:40:45

Well, you say we're invisible but, you know, time and again

0:40:450:40:48

it's been said that, given her profile in the last

0:40:480:40:51

election campaign, one thing Leanne Wood was, was not invisible.

0:40:510:40:55

She's been very prominent and she's maximised her prominence

0:40:550:40:58

in that way?

0:40:580:40:58

And she emerged out of that election, in opinion polling,

0:40:580:41:01

as the most popular leader.

0:41:010:41:02

What did that translate into in terms of performance?

0:41:020:41:06

But you, as a student of Welsh history, you, Huw,

0:41:060:41:08

will know that sometimes the seeds have to be planted and

0:41:080:41:11

the fruit will come later.

0:41:110:41:13

I think we will see the fruition of what -

0:41:130:41:16

But it's important - We'll see the fruition

0:41:160:41:19

of her leadership at this election because, you know,

0:41:190:41:21

this is the party of the status quo.

0:41:210:41:23

This is the -

0:41:230:41:24

A vote for Plaid Cymru -

0:41:240:41:26

Adam, wait, I'll bring you back in again.

0:41:260:41:28

He's trying to shout down other voices.

0:41:280:41:30

That time is over, it is now time for Wales to stand up

0:41:300:41:34

and make our voice heard.

0:41:340:41:35

So by fruition, you say you are going to increase the number

0:41:350:41:38

of seats that you have in this election?

0:41:380:41:40

Absolutely.

0:41:400:41:42

I think we will have the best ever record number of Plaid Cymru MPs,

0:41:420:41:46

and that's what will make Westminster and Whitehall

0:41:460:41:48

sit up and listen.

0:41:480:41:49

OK.

0:41:490:41:50

Not by re-electing Labour, not through a blue wave,

0:41:500:41:55

it'll be actually ourselves, voting for our own party

0:41:550:41:58

and our own voice.

0:41:580:41:59

I'm going to ask Jenny because Jenny hasn't had a go yet.

0:41:590:42:01

Right, hang on a sec.

0:42:010:42:02

Jenny, yes.

0:42:020:42:04

This is a UK election and the Liberal Democrats

0:42:040:42:06

are the only UK-wide party which is standing up clearly

0:42:060:42:09

on a pro-EU stance saying, we want to remain members

0:42:090:42:13

of the single market.

0:42:130:42:16

We want the best possible situation for leaving the EU.

0:42:160:42:20

And, Tim Farron has run a brilliant campaign, really putting that

0:42:200:42:23

absolutely centre stage.

0:42:230:42:26

At the moment, whether you vote Conservative or Ukip,

0:42:260:42:30

you get the same message, and we're in danger

0:42:300:42:39

of a Conservative coronation, of Theresa May's coronation.

0:42:390:42:41

What we need is a strong opposition and the Labour Party gave up on that

0:42:410:42:45

ages ago when they voted for Brexit.

0:42:450:42:48

So, therefore, we are in favour and we are putting ourselves forward

0:42:480:42:52

as being that strong opposition, a positive, constructive opposition,

0:42:520:42:56

making sure that the future Government really does

0:42:560:42:59

the best for Britain.

0:42:590:43:01

We are almost out of time, and I know that one or two

0:43:010:43:05

of you are itching to come back in.

0:43:050:43:07

I'm going to give you each a sentence, which is the last

0:43:070:43:09

message you want viewers to take away with them tonight

0:43:090:43:12

as they think about this polling day, which is coming up

0:43:120:43:14

in three weeks' time.

0:43:140:43:15

I'm going to start with Gareth, first of all, on this one.

0:43:150:43:18

I think people should seriously consider voting Ukip to hold

0:43:180:43:21

the Government to account over Brexit, so that the Government does

0:43:210:43:24

deliver the hard Brexit that a lot of people wanted,

0:43:240:43:29

particularly with regard to immigration controls.

0:43:290:43:31

Nick, your last message.

0:43:310:43:35

8th June, there will be a very clear choice put before the Welsh

0:43:350:43:38

and the British people, that is between the strong

0:43:380:43:41

and stable leadership of Theresa May or the coalition of chaos that

0:43:410:43:45

will be provided by Jeremy Corbyn.

0:43:450:43:46

It's as simple as that.

0:43:460:43:50

It's either continuum with solid economic policies and making sure

0:43:500:43:53

that Britain beyond Brexit is solid and strong, or it's a leap

0:43:530:43:56

into the dark and a Britain that will be going back to the past

0:43:560:43:59

and all the failures that Labour have delivered in the past.

0:43:590:44:02

I knew you'd get to "strong and stable" somewhere, Nick,

0:44:020:44:05

thank you very much.

0:44:050:44:06

Adam.

0:44:060:44:07

We, as a nation, have been forgotten too long.

0:44:070:44:09

We've been neglected by successive governments,

0:44:090:44:10

Conservative and Labour.

0:44:100:44:13

We can change that as a nation on the 8th June if we put our

0:44:130:44:16

country first and vote Plaid.

0:44:160:44:17

Thank you very much.

0:44:170:44:18

Jenny.

0:44:180:44:19

The Liberal Democrats are standing on a message of hope.

0:44:190:44:22

We want a country that is outgoing.

0:44:220:44:24

We want optimism and we want prosperity in the future.

0:44:240:44:30

We are the only party standing on a pro-European platform,

0:44:300:44:35

that is fighting across the UK and, therefore, can have a real

0:44:350:44:38

influence in Government.

0:44:380:44:39

Thank you.

0:44:390:44:40

Wayne.

0:44:400:44:41

This election is a clear choice between the Conservatives

0:44:410:44:44

and Welsh Labour.

0:44:440:44:48

A vote for the Liberal Democrats or Plaid Cymru make a Conservative

0:44:480:44:51

Government more likely.

0:44:510:44:52

We know what Conservativism has meant for Wales

0:44:520:44:54

over the recent past.

0:44:540:44:57

If we don't want the Conservatives walking over Wales then

0:44:570:45:00

there's no alternative, people have to vote Welsh Labour.

0:45:000:45:02

I'm a bit exhausted after all that.

0:45:020:45:04

Thank you all very much for coming in.

0:45:040:45:06

We'll see what happens on the 8th June.

0:45:060:45:08

A good exchange of views and thank you all for entering

0:45:080:45:10

into the spirit of that.

0:45:100:45:11

That's all we have time for tonight.

0:45:110:45:13

If you'd like to get in touch about anything we've discussed,

0:45:130:45:16

or if you'd like to be in the audience of a special live debate

0:45:160:45:19

with the Welsh Party leaders, you can email us.

0:45:190:45:21

The address is: thewalesreport@bbc.co.uk.

0:45:210:45:24

We're on social media, the hashtag is thewalesreport.

0:45:250:45:28

But for now, thank you very much for joining us.

0:45:280:45:30

Nos Da i chi.

0:45:300:45:31

Good night.

0:45:310:45:35