28/06/2017 The Wales Report

Tonight, in the final edition of the Welsh report, we're going to be in

the chamber of the Senate in Cardiff Bay. I'll be joined by the First

Minister in a few minutes. My word, there is a lot faster. About. The

First Minister has been unstinting in his criticism of the deal done

between Theresa May and the Democratic Unionist, but beyond the

anger, what Kenny actually do about it? We will also talk about the

importance of having a strong Welsh voice in the Brexit process, and

that intriguing decision after six John six long years of deliberation

over the circuit of Wales. Like to come and more.

First Minister, thank you for talking to us.

How does take the Welsh government six years to make a decision

Well, bear in mind, the project changed many

The financial ask changed several times.

First of all, it was nothing, then it was 100% then it went

to another model and then to another model, so, it's not

as if the decision could have been taken six years ago,

because it was a very different scheme at that time.

Are you proud of the way the decision was taken

Well, we tried to give the circuit an opportunity.

The initial scheme, when wwere asked for a 100% guarantee,

we could have said "No, go away," at that point.

But we wanted to work with them to see if they could come up

We set down conditions - unfortunately they weren't able

to meet those conditions, so, what we tried to do

with you give them every opportunity possible.

That did take some time, but unfortunately, at the end,

they weren't able to meet the conditions that we'd set down.

Nothing in the process that you would do differently from the

tried to give every opportunity possible to the circuit, two

providers with a financial model that would work.

We worked with them, but in the end, that model that

they put forward wasn't one that was we could support.

How can it be that just a few weeks ago, a senior civil

servant can send an e-mail to the interested parties saying we don't

think there is any big obstacle here.

Does that suggest there is a lack of communication in the

No, you have to remember the due diligence process

took place and as a result of that do diligence process, problems were

What we asked the cicuit to doas to come up with a scheme that

be the risk would be spread 50-50 between

private sector, but the scheme that was put forward the do diligence

private sector, but the scheme that was put forward the due diligence

that look at that scheme showed that in fact there was a serious risk

that the government with a couple of the bill.

If I was a major investor, I might say to you, "OK, I'm

thinking of doing something pretty big in Wales.

It will bring in jobs, it will make a big contribution

something of the world governments might be quite interested in.

If I look at the way this has been handled,

and I'm doing it rather harshly maybe, I think it's taken in

six years, OK, some things have changed in the meantime, it doesn't

Why would I want these people as business

Because we can say to them look at Aston Martin, look at Tata,

look at Raytheon in the north, look at Airbus.

Look at all these companies that we've worked with ,

General Dynamics, who have been very happy with working

We have a strong track record of attracting investment into

It's why, of course, our unemployemnt level is lower

we saw last year, for example, the best

foreign investment figures that

So, our record speaks for itself, but we can't support

It has to work as far as the taxpayer is

How enthusiastic were you about the scheme?

What I wanted to do was to give every single

opportunity for the circuit of Wales to come up with a scheme that would

work as far as the taxpayer was concerned.

Now, if we're going to be accused of anything,

perhaps it's being to open to giving them that

Unfortunately, it didn't work out, but, we will move forward with one

part of the scheme, in effect, the The

part of the scheme, in effect, the he

scheme that could have created most of the jobs in reality and that it

is a technology park in the heads of the valleys.

That's where most of the jobs were, not actually in racetrack itself.

Just close this one, you are telling voters very clearly that

after this very long process, and there are a lot of disappointed

people involved, you are saying that the Welsh government has

handled this by the book and you don't think

there is any problem with the process as we seen it?

No, I don't, and I think we have handled it by

the book and properly and we protected the taxpayer.

On top of that, the bulk of the scheme, which

would have provided most of the jobs will still go ahead.

The circuit itself would only have provided

it was never going to be 6000, but the thousands of jobs,

were in the technology park that we are moving

So, we're confident that we can create most of

the jobs that the circuit would have created in the end.

You're very clear about that and you were very

clearly this week, when we spoke on the BBC News Channel,

about the deal that Theresa May and the

Conservatives have done with the Democratic Unionists in Northern

You were clearly very angry, and frustrated about that.

Some people thought that, in Whitehall,

But you knew that, frankly, there was nothing

wrong with the deal, you

were just resentful and jealous about it.

Probably the shabbiest deal I've ever seen.

If I went to the Treasury and said, "Could I have some money for health

pressures or for education," I'd be told where to go.

I'd be told, "You've got that money already."

?1 billion of funding, which normally is

distributed through the Barnet form, which we keep on being told is

There a very nasty message here, for even a politician

of your status, which is that that Arlene Foster clearly has more

The message is that the UK Government

will sell England Scotland or Wales down the river in order to keep

itself in power and will destroy the rules that have governed the way

money is distributed across the UK to save their own political skins.

Let's not pretend that the DUP won't come back in two years' time

Maybe that's true, but it doesn't dicth get the basic

truth which is that Arlene Foster has some leveraging Parliament

and you, as First Minister, and in thiscase, the Labour Party, doesn't

What this has done is weak and some of the barns that hold the UK

together. Frankly all of this guff about this is something that will

provide the UK with stable government is absolute nonsense.

What has happened is that Northern Ireland has been bought off, that

hostility is ending -- austerities ending in Northern Ireland with

taxpayers' money from England Scotland and Wales. A short-term

political gain for the Conservative Party is going to cause lasting

resentment in all the countries of the UK. I absolutely regret that,

because we have all said that the UK is transparent, then distributes

money around according to wear a need should be. The Barnett forms

used to be that, it doesn't do that any more. Now we know that money is

attributed according to where votes can be bought. You're in Downing

Street the minority, you need the votes, you look for deals. That's

what she has done. The Labour government is out there absolutely

hammering them. Because just because the DUP -- one part of the UK,...

The Barnett for has been overridden. The Barnett form is often called

unfair? It a preposterous to say that the Barnett form to beat money

but not Northern Ireland. We have the major projects are the M4 relief

road, we're told that we have to pay for that. Northern Ireland is told,

don't worry, we will pay for that for you. It is the grubby as deal

imaginable. I don't begrudge the people of Northern Ireland, how

could I. If Northern Ireland gets the money that should be in

equivalent share of Scotland Wales and even, but that hasn't happened.

Was a lot of interest in what you had to say about the deal, because

you mentioned possibly canvassing some legal options. I'm going to

say, one unexpected summoning Downing Street, they said what's he

talking about? There is nothing allotting that unlawful about this

deal when the things we are doing is we're the dispute resolution

process. The JNC is the body that brings... There is a dispute

resolution process and exist there, where we feel that an item of

expenditure has been spent in one part of the UK should have had a

Barnett consequential. We have started that dispute. Do you have

any confidence in that process? A dispute with the Treasury of the

dispute, the current UK pop Constitution... What is the process?

Usher the Scots will say that this is an underhand deal which drives a

coach of horses in a way that money is distributed across the UK in it

really does smack of hypocrisy. We will do all we can to make sure that

Wales get its fair share. Not to undermine Northern Ireland or money

they will get, but he say hang on a second, if you're ending austerity

in Northern Ireland, then you should end austerity in the other three

countries as well. If you are talking in legal terms what would be

the legal basis of taking the Ford? How would you do that? That's

something we are examining. The first step is the dispute resolution

process and that we will take forward. So, it's a big threat, but

not when you have thought three? There are some issues that we will

take advice on. Early days. What I can say is that we will use every

possible avenue to do this as far as Wales is concerned. Because, where

is the secretary for Wales? Why isn't he saying hang on the should

be more money for Wales? Where is the secretary of skills for Scotland

the Carthago delenda when we spoke several months ago we

had an exchange about how the Welsh voice to be heard around Brexit and

how important that it be? We are in a different position now, a Prime

Minister who might be recognised as being weekend, she's got issues with

her backbenchers, very little room to manoeuvre Obama wrong to say that

Mrs May is less likely to let listen to Mrs May? -- to listen to Wales?

Any Brexit deal with the prior consent of the devolved legislation

so I welcome that. It's something that I have been advocating. It is

important because at the very beginning I said that it was hugely

important that any deal should be ratified by four powers and it

should be accepted across the UK. And I'm glad that it was accepted by

the UK Government will stop is possible they were as Senate could

not back that? -- the well said it could not back that got from my

perspective, we're not in the business of trying to prevent

Brexit. We are in the business of looking after Wales. The City of

London is looked after, but Welsh farmers are forgotten about we will

not stand for that. I'm glad the government has put accepted the

principle of its consent. How would you characterise a reception you

have had in London when you have made the case for the Welsh argument

in terms Brexit? I'd irrespective? While they are not one government,

they are just a collection of individuals with their own views.

When I talk to David Davis, here's a list of the issues and I walk in the

comments he has made. There are some, the Westminster is, the

nationalist wing, the Conservative Party they feel the same way. The UK

is the same in the as it was in 1973 when we join the Common Market. Full

stop hopefully their voices will be tempered and pragmatic voices and

will be heard. At the end of the day, the UK's unity will depend on

what happens over the course of the next ten years. It's hugely

important, as somebody who believes in devolution and believes that

Wales has been part of the United Kingdom, that we don't create

resentment that will linger and caused the UK to split up. I don't

want to see that and it's hugely important that we take steps now to

see that doesn't You said several times judge you by

results, education in Wales, results have been disappointing in 2016,

poorest performing part of the UK in terms of the Pisa results. The next

ones in 2018, will your legacy be that Wales is still at the bottom of

that pile when it? The Agassi is best GCSE results ever, A-level

results have been proven, the payment being closed in Wales, the

bottom schools are being lifted up, new schools being built across

Wales, that is not happening in England. We have seen schools being

able to good university because they get far better baggage of support

and ligand. We work with the FA colleges to make sure they delivered

the apprenticeships we need for our economy, none of these things were

happening for devolution and we have shown that we put money into schools

and from school at a high level and we are now seeing results improve to

a point where we have had our best result ever. On the global yardstick

of Pisa what is going to happen? We want to see the position improve. Do

you think we will move off the bottom? Indication so far have been

good. We're not at the bottom, we have done the least well of the four

of the UK nations, but let's not say that we think Peter is great and we

are proud of it, we are not, we want to improve. That the world, the

measure. But the indications we have received have been living in the

right direction in GCSE and A-level results and the facilities that

children had to learn in. I have got children of school age so I see the

difference that has been made by the money put in. Are you confident that

Pisa performance will improve or not? We want to see that. It is

difficult to predict because it measures education in a way that

goes beyond the results that we see in GCSE and A-level and in some ways

we have had to make sure that our schools are more aware of what is

required when the Pisa tests take place because they don't teach to

Pisa traditionally, but to GCSE and A-level and we have to make sure

that there is greater understanding of Pisa in our schools. Burgeoning

young people, it is 20 years since Wales voted narrowly to have a

devolved government and to set up the institution, so what we did and

I hope you will bear with me, talking to two and young women who

were born 20 years ago, one in Pontypridd and one elsewhere and we

have been asking their views about where Wales is 20 years on. My name

is Rachel Hutchings, I am 20, Wales narrowly divided to be a devolved

government, I was nine months old, growing up I haven't ever known

different. I feel devolution is massively important to Wales. I am

20 years old, when Wales voted to become involved, I was around three

or four months old. I am a supporter of centralised government so I am

not a massive fun of the Assembly. High, at nice to meet you. Hello.

I believe that the Government and parliament should have most of the

power. We have so many different layers of politics and

representation that you don't believe the Assembly needs to be

there. I feel that devolved government is important because it

is not necessary the that every area of the UK is looking very same

thing. Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, are not

necessarily having the same problems with things at the forefront and

Westminster doesn't often represent the issues that I think are

fundamental in Wales. Do you really think the Welsh Assembly actually

makes an impact on young people in Wales and actually represents us?

For young people devolution has proved it has given us a lot of

things, it is a lot easier for us to study and go to university and I was

government, and it is things like that but I think young people in

Wales even though they may not audibly discuss that much are very

thankful to have. Or do you think young people in Wales are actually

aware of the policy that Wales are actually in charge of? Personally

know. I don't think people that I knew that went to school, I was in

school with 17, 18, old enough to vote, and they used to say or tweet

and I would play to them, education is awful at the moment or the NHS

so-and-so, paying the sludge away they are having to wait so long,

David Cameron at the time, why is he doing these things, he needs to that

is the Welsh Assembly. If you have got a problem you need to go to the

bus Assembly is not your MP. I think if a lot more young people somewhere

to our own age group would have a bigger understanding of devolution

met and what has been given to us that they were possibly care more

and actively seek things out, to contact members of the Assembly.

Don't you think it is important for us to have this institution is our

voice going into these hugely important Brexit negotiations? If

people are going to have the same from Wales, it is the Wales Office

in the Government, the Secretary of State for Wales and its officers.

They think he is really going to make the boys of Wales occurred in

those locations. I don't think the Assembly will have much say. It

seems by 2021 the National Assembly of Wales will be renamed Welsh

Parliament, what is your opinion, do think that will change a thing? I

think it is a waste of time. What is the point in changing the name. Do

they think they would get more credibility by changing the name?

Maybe they should gain more credibility by becoming a better

government and more representative to the people. So would you be in

favour of further powers being devolved to the Welsh Assembly in

future? I would usually be in favour of that. In fact personally given

the climate as a design award is not possible but in the future I would

love to see an independent Wales and for all of our policy to take place

here. I think we will have to agree to disagree. It is never going to

happen. Here's to the future of Wales. And our thanks to Rachel

Hutchings and Corrie Driscoll. Diametric call opposed views, I am

wondering do you think that representative of public opinion in

Wales? It was represented of of the views of those two people but we

know from the polls that devolution is well-established in peoples

minds, a seven-month sport these days compared to what the way things

were 20 ago. Nobody ever says what do you think of Westminster or local

government, shall we have local government? Sometimes we have to

justify ourselves still but we know from the polls that people are very

much supportive and Conservative edge devolution. Those are

fundamental point about people's understanding of what is decided

here and government in Wales and I think that has been a persistent

issue across the 20 years. Is it disappointing? It is a question for

politicians and media, is it disappointing that even today 20

years on people clearly have in some cases are pretty foggy understanding

of what the responsibilities are? Yes, there is more work to do for

ourselves and the media. It is better than it was, no question

about that, but the way the media has changed has meant that there is

far more penetration of Welsh news in parts of Wales like the

north-east where it was quite difficult before. I have noticed it

on the doorstep when going to places like Easter adventure and there is

far more of an understanding what is happening in terms of Welsh politics

than ever in the past which is because the media is more

fragmented, Facebook, that conveys messages as well. You as we are

people generally absolutely aware of what each and choosing does, no not

yet. Even for basic things like health, they still meet voters who

frankly haven't clocked the fact that health is run here. Part of the

problem is we don't have a strong print media in Wales in the same way

that Scotland has an people read newspapers that carry news that is

not relevant to them as of Wales was part of England. Bluntly I think

there is a bias in terms of what happens in BBC in London towards

London and Scotland, Scotland is oversupplied shall we say with

journalists, Wales is undersupplied. An honourable exception... But it is

an issue for us, but two weeks ago I saw a comment Arlene Foster carried

on the news and it is a comment I used a few weeks ago with hardly any

cupboard and I hope that has changed with some of the comments that I

have made, but there is a tendency to ignore Wales and expressed

surprise when we expressed strong opinions. Why is it so important to

change this place name? Double better understand what the

Parliament does. People don't fully understand what an Assembly is and

what it does. The are vague to what it means, is at the same as it got

us Parliament or is it a parliament, it is a parliament at the end of the

day. It is going to become a text variant, it is already law making,

let's call it what it is. People have much better what standing of

what the word Parliament means. Is it to do with status or is it to do

with power and do you think that power increasingly would be seen by

people to be something that is people painting at sharp contrast

with an age of 20 years ago that we were discussing which scenes are

very distant age nor? What you have the river is we have a referendum in

2011 to get more powers for the Assembly and it passed by 2-1, much

bigger margin than Brexit. We have to remember that in that referendum

people moved on from the idea of devolution and they wanted more

powers. See continuously from the polls that people are always open to

looking at more powers for this place. Is it a semantic change? The

change of the Assembly to a Parliament? No, I just think it

helps to give people a better understanding about this institution

actually does, more than just a word. The next elections are in

2021. Will you be First Minister at that point? I am reluctant to make

any changes, Brexit is so overwhelming as an issue at the

moment, I think it is important to me to be able to deal with that. One

I but Ejaria council I will be the longest serving leader there, longer

than any of them. Is that the hint that the Brexit issue has changed

your perspective on those timings? In terms of your future? In politics

you can never really predict how long you're going to be there, the

voters have a say on these things, like many other jobs, it is hugely

important to deal with issues surrounding Brexit and for me to

draw on the experience I have going back to 2009 as a First Minister at

2000 as a government blister and bring those to bear to help Wales

with those negotiations. Your message to view was as clear, when

the elections happen in 2021, you will still all things being equal,

good health, you will be First Minister at that point? I have no

plan to change, I am 50 so I'm still much younger than the Prime

Minister. That was unkind! I am older than Nicola Sturgeon and

Arlene Foster, I have still got plenty of drive in me. Because that

is the question isn't it? Having been first mentor of such a long

time you do get a personal thing to ask, it is a demanding job is the

ambition and energy stored there and the vision is still there? The

answer is yes but it is absolutely right that you have to ask yourself

in my position, the questionable claims, have you still got the drive

and the interest and the energy? I ask myself that all the time. And

the answer to those questions have been yes. First Minister, good to

talk to you. Thank you very much. But is it from Cardiff Bay with the

First Minister here. The very last edition of The Wales Report. Thank

you for watching for the past five years and thanks for supporting our

efforts relate to maintain the level of scrutiny in politics and public

life in Wales. It has never been more important than it is today. So

from the First Minister, from me, all of the team on The Wales Report,

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