28/06/2017 The Wales Report


For the final The Wales Report of the series, Huw Edwards is joined by first minister Carwyn Jones to discuss the ongoing Brexit negotiations.

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Tonight, in the final edition of the Welsh report, we're going to be in


the chamber of the Senate in Cardiff Bay. I'll be joined by the First


Minister in a few minutes. My word, there is a lot faster. About. The


First Minister has been unstinting in his criticism of the deal done


between Theresa May and the Democratic Unionist, but beyond the


anger, what Kenny actually do about it? We will also talk about the


importance of having a strong Welsh voice in the Brexit process, and


that intriguing decision after six John six long years of deliberation


over the circuit of Wales. Like to come and more.


First Minister, thank you for talking to us.


How does take the Welsh government six years to make a decision


Well, bear in mind, the project changed many


The financial ask changed several times.


First of all, it was nothing, then it was 100% then it went


to another model and then to another model, so, it's not


as if the decision could have been taken six years ago,


because it was a very different scheme at that time.


Are you proud of the way the decision was taken


Well, we tried to give the circuit an opportunity.


The initial scheme, when wwere asked for a 100% guarantee,


we could have said "No, go away," at that point.


But we wanted to work with them to see if they could come up


We set down conditions - unfortunately they weren't able


to meet those conditions, so, what we tried to do


with you give them every opportunity possible.


That did take some time, but unfortunately, at the end,


they weren't able to meet the conditions that we'd set down.


Nothing in the process that you would do differently from the


tried to give every opportunity possible to the circuit, two


providers with a financial model that would work.


We worked with them, but in the end, that model that


they put forward wasn't one that was we could support.


How can it be that just a few weeks ago, a senior civil


servant can send an e-mail to the interested parties saying we don't


think there is any big obstacle here.


Does that suggest there is a lack of communication in the


No, you have to remember the due diligence process


took place and as a result of that do diligence process, problems were


What we asked the cicuit to doas to come up with a scheme that


be the risk would be spread 50-50 between


private sector, but the scheme that was put forward the do diligence


private sector, but the scheme that was put forward the due diligence


that look at that scheme showed that in fact there was a serious risk


that the government with a couple of the bill.


If I was a major investor, I might say to you, "OK, I'm


thinking of doing something pretty big in Wales.


It will bring in jobs, it will make a big contribution


something of the world governments might be quite interested in.


If I look at the way this has been handled,


and I'm doing it rather harshly maybe, I think it's taken in


six years, OK, some things have changed in the meantime, it doesn't


Why would I want these people as business


Because we can say to them look at Aston Martin, look at Tata,


look at Raytheon in the north, look at Airbus.


Look at all these companies that we've worked with ,


General Dynamics, who have been very happy with working


We have a strong track record of attracting investment into


It's why, of course, our unemployemnt level is lower


we saw last year, for example, the best


foreign investment figures that


So, our record speaks for itself, but we can't support


It has to work as far as the taxpayer is


How enthusiastic were you about the scheme?


What I wanted to do was to give every single


opportunity for the circuit of Wales to come up with a scheme that would


work as far as the taxpayer was concerned.


Now, if we're going to be accused of anything,


perhaps it's being to open to giving them that


Unfortunately, it didn't work out, but, we will move forward with one


part of the scheme, in effect, the The


part of the scheme, in effect, the he


scheme that could have created most of the jobs in reality and that it


is a technology park in the heads of the valleys.


That's where most of the jobs were, not actually in racetrack itself.


Just close this one, you are telling voters very clearly that


after this very long process, and there are a lot of disappointed


people involved, you are saying that the Welsh government has


handled this by the book and you don't think


there is any problem with the process as we seen it?


No, I don't, and I think we have handled it by


the book and properly and we protected the taxpayer.


On top of that, the bulk of the scheme, which


would have provided most of the jobs will still go ahead.


The circuit itself would only have provided


it was never going to be 6000, but the thousands of jobs,


were in the technology park that we are moving


So, we're confident that we can create most of


the jobs that the circuit would have created in the end.


You're very clear about that and you were very


clearly this week, when we spoke on the BBC News Channel,


about the deal that Theresa May and the


Conservatives have done with the Democratic Unionists in Northern


You were clearly very angry, and frustrated about that.


Some people thought that, in Whitehall,


But you knew that, frankly, there was nothing


wrong with the deal, you


were just resentful and jealous about it.


Probably the shabbiest deal I've ever seen.


If I went to the Treasury and said, "Could I have some money for health


pressures or for education," I'd be told where to go.


I'd be told, "You've got that money already."


?1 billion of funding, which normally is


distributed through the Barnet form, which we keep on being told is


There a very nasty message here, for even a politician


of your status, which is that that Arlene Foster clearly has more


The message is that the UK Government


will sell England Scotland or Wales down the river in order to keep


itself in power and will destroy the rules that have governed the way


money is distributed across the UK to save their own political skins.


Let's not pretend that the DUP won't come back in two years' time


Maybe that's true, but it doesn't dicth get the basic


truth which is that Arlene Foster has some leveraging Parliament


and you, as First Minister, and in thiscase, the Labour Party, doesn't


What this has done is weak and some of the barns that hold the UK


together. Frankly all of this guff about this is something that will


provide the UK with stable government is absolute nonsense.


What has happened is that Northern Ireland has been bought off, that


hostility is ending -- austerities ending in Northern Ireland with


taxpayers' money from England Scotland and Wales. A short-term


political gain for the Conservative Party is going to cause lasting


resentment in all the countries of the UK. I absolutely regret that,


because we have all said that the UK is transparent, then distributes


money around according to wear a need should be. The Barnett forms


used to be that, it doesn't do that any more. Now we know that money is


attributed according to where votes can be bought. You're in Downing


Street the minority, you need the votes, you look for deals. That's


what she has done. The Labour government is out there absolutely


hammering them. Because just because the DUP -- one part of the UK,...


The Barnett for has been overridden. The Barnett form is often called


unfair? It a preposterous to say that the Barnett form to beat money


but not Northern Ireland. We have the major projects are the M4 relief


road, we're told that we have to pay for that. Northern Ireland is told,


don't worry, we will pay for that for you. It is the grubby as deal


imaginable. I don't begrudge the people of Northern Ireland, how


could I. If Northern Ireland gets the money that should be in


equivalent share of Scotland Wales and even, but that hasn't happened.


Was a lot of interest in what you had to say about the deal, because


you mentioned possibly canvassing some legal options. I'm going to


say, one unexpected summoning Downing Street, they said what's he


talking about? There is nothing allotting that unlawful about this


deal when the things we are doing is we're the dispute resolution


process. The JNC is the body that brings... There is a dispute


resolution process and exist there, where we feel that an item of


expenditure has been spent in one part of the UK should have had a


Barnett consequential. We have started that dispute. Do you have


any confidence in that process? A dispute with the Treasury of the


dispute, the current UK pop Constitution... What is the process?


Usher the Scots will say that this is an underhand deal which drives a


coach of horses in a way that money is distributed across the UK in it


really does smack of hypocrisy. We will do all we can to make sure that


Wales get its fair share. Not to undermine Northern Ireland or money


they will get, but he say hang on a second, if you're ending austerity


in Northern Ireland, then you should end austerity in the other three


countries as well. If you are talking in legal terms what would be


the legal basis of taking the Ford? How would you do that? That's


something we are examining. The first step is the dispute resolution


process and that we will take forward. So, it's a big threat, but


not when you have thought three? There are some issues that we will


take advice on. Early days. What I can say is that we will use every


possible avenue to do this as far as Wales is concerned. Because, where


is the secretary for Wales? Why isn't he saying hang on the should


be more money for Wales? Where is the secretary of skills for Scotland


the Carthago delenda when we spoke several months ago we


had an exchange about how the Welsh voice to be heard around Brexit and


how important that it be? We are in a different position now, a Prime


Minister who might be recognised as being weekend, she's got issues with


her backbenchers, very little room to manoeuvre Obama wrong to say that


Mrs May is less likely to let listen to Mrs May? -- to listen to Wales?


Any Brexit deal with the prior consent of the devolved legislation


so I welcome that. It's something that I have been advocating. It is


important because at the very beginning I said that it was hugely


important that any deal should be ratified by four powers and it


should be accepted across the UK. And I'm glad that it was accepted by


the UK Government will stop is possible they were as Senate could


not back that? -- the well said it could not back that got from my


perspective, we're not in the business of trying to prevent


Brexit. We are in the business of looking after Wales. The City of


London is looked after, but Welsh farmers are forgotten about we will


not stand for that. I'm glad the government has put accepted the


principle of its consent. How would you characterise a reception you


have had in London when you have made the case for the Welsh argument


in terms Brexit? I'd irrespective? While they are not one government,


they are just a collection of individuals with their own views.


When I talk to David Davis, here's a list of the issues and I walk in the


comments he has made. There are some, the Westminster is, the


nationalist wing, the Conservative Party they feel the same way. The UK


is the same in the as it was in 1973 when we join the Common Market. Full


stop hopefully their voices will be tempered and pragmatic voices and


will be heard. At the end of the day, the UK's unity will depend on


what happens over the course of the next ten years. It's hugely


important, as somebody who believes in devolution and believes that


Wales has been part of the United Kingdom, that we don't create


resentment that will linger and caused the UK to split up. I don't


want to see that and it's hugely important that we take steps now to


see that doesn't You said several times judge you by


results, education in Wales, results have been disappointing in 2016,


poorest performing part of the UK in terms of the Pisa results. The next


ones in 2018, will your legacy be that Wales is still at the bottom of


that pile when it? The Agassi is best GCSE results ever, A-level


results have been proven, the payment being closed in Wales, the


bottom schools are being lifted up, new schools being built across


Wales, that is not happening in England. We have seen schools being


able to good university because they get far better baggage of support


and ligand. We work with the FA colleges to make sure they delivered


the apprenticeships we need for our economy, none of these things were


happening for devolution and we have shown that we put money into schools


and from school at a high level and we are now seeing results improve to


a point where we have had our best result ever. On the global yardstick


of Pisa what is going to happen? We want to see the position improve. Do


you think we will move off the bottom? Indication so far have been


good. We're not at the bottom, we have done the least well of the four


of the UK nations, but let's not say that we think Peter is great and we


are proud of it, we are not, we want to improve. That the world, the


measure. But the indications we have received have been living in the


right direction in GCSE and A-level results and the facilities that


children had to learn in. I have got children of school age so I see the


difference that has been made by the money put in. Are you confident that


Pisa performance will improve or not? We want to see that. It is


difficult to predict because it measures education in a way that


goes beyond the results that we see in GCSE and A-level and in some ways


we have had to make sure that our schools are more aware of what is


required when the Pisa tests take place because they don't teach to


Pisa traditionally, but to GCSE and A-level and we have to make sure


that there is greater understanding of Pisa in our schools. Burgeoning


young people, it is 20 years since Wales voted narrowly to have a


devolved government and to set up the institution, so what we did and


I hope you will bear with me, talking to two and young women who


were born 20 years ago, one in Pontypridd and one elsewhere and we


have been asking their views about where Wales is 20 years on. My name


is Rachel Hutchings, I am 20, Wales narrowly divided to be a devolved


government, I was nine months old, growing up I haven't ever known


different. I feel devolution is massively important to Wales. I am


20 years old, when Wales voted to become involved, I was around three


or four months old. I am a supporter of centralised government so I am


not a massive fun of the Assembly. High, at nice to meet you. Hello.


I believe that the Government and parliament should have most of the


power. We have so many different layers of politics and


representation that you don't believe the Assembly needs to be


there. I feel that devolved government is important because it


is not necessary the that every area of the UK is looking very same


thing. Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, are not


necessarily having the same problems with things at the forefront and


Westminster doesn't often represent the issues that I think are


fundamental in Wales. Do you really think the Welsh Assembly actually


makes an impact on young people in Wales and actually represents us?


For young people devolution has proved it has given us a lot of


things, it is a lot easier for us to study and go to university and I was


government, and it is things like that but I think young people in


Wales even though they may not audibly discuss that much are very


thankful to have. Or do you think young people in Wales are actually


aware of the policy that Wales are actually in charge of? Personally


know. I don't think people that I knew that went to school, I was in


school with 17, 18, old enough to vote, and they used to say or tweet


and I would play to them, education is awful at the moment or the NHS


so-and-so, paying the sludge away they are having to wait so long,


David Cameron at the time, why is he doing these things, he needs to that


is the Welsh Assembly. If you have got a problem you need to go to the


bus Assembly is not your MP. I think if a lot more young people somewhere


to our own age group would have a bigger understanding of devolution


met and what has been given to us that they were possibly care more


and actively seek things out, to contact members of the Assembly.


Don't you think it is important for us to have this institution is our


voice going into these hugely important Brexit negotiations? If


people are going to have the same from Wales, it is the Wales Office


in the Government, the Secretary of State for Wales and its officers.


They think he is really going to make the boys of Wales occurred in


those locations. I don't think the Assembly will have much say. It


seems by 2021 the National Assembly of Wales will be renamed Welsh


Parliament, what is your opinion, do think that will change a thing? I


think it is a waste of time. What is the point in changing the name. Do


they think they would get more credibility by changing the name?


Maybe they should gain more credibility by becoming a better


government and more representative to the people. So would you be in


favour of further powers being devolved to the Welsh Assembly in


future? I would usually be in favour of that. In fact personally given


the climate as a design award is not possible but in the future I would


love to see an independent Wales and for all of our policy to take place


here. I think we will have to agree to disagree. It is never going to


happen. Here's to the future of Wales. And our thanks to Rachel


Hutchings and Corrie Driscoll. Diametric call opposed views, I am


wondering do you think that representative of public opinion in


Wales? It was represented of of the views of those two people but we


know from the polls that devolution is well-established in peoples


minds, a seven-month sport these days compared to what the way things


were 20 ago. Nobody ever says what do you think of Westminster or local


government, shall we have local government? Sometimes we have to


justify ourselves still but we know from the polls that people are very


much supportive and Conservative edge devolution. Those are


fundamental point about people's understanding of what is decided


here and government in Wales and I think that has been a persistent


issue across the 20 years. Is it disappointing? It is a question for


politicians and media, is it disappointing that even today 20


years on people clearly have in some cases are pretty foggy understanding


of what the responsibilities are? Yes, there is more work to do for


ourselves and the media. It is better than it was, no question


about that, but the way the media has changed has meant that there is


far more penetration of Welsh news in parts of Wales like the


north-east where it was quite difficult before. I have noticed it


on the doorstep when going to places like Easter adventure and there is


far more of an understanding what is happening in terms of Welsh politics


than ever in the past which is because the media is more


fragmented, Facebook, that conveys messages as well. You as we are


people generally absolutely aware of what each and choosing does, no not


yet. Even for basic things like health, they still meet voters who


frankly haven't clocked the fact that health is run here. Part of the


problem is we don't have a strong print media in Wales in the same way


that Scotland has an people read newspapers that carry news that is


not relevant to them as of Wales was part of England. Bluntly I think


there is a bias in terms of what happens in BBC in London towards


London and Scotland, Scotland is oversupplied shall we say with


journalists, Wales is undersupplied. An honourable exception... But it is


an issue for us, but two weeks ago I saw a comment Arlene Foster carried


on the news and it is a comment I used a few weeks ago with hardly any


cupboard and I hope that has changed with some of the comments that I


have made, but there is a tendency to ignore Wales and expressed


surprise when we expressed strong opinions. Why is it so important to


change this place name? Double better understand what the


Parliament does. People don't fully understand what an Assembly is and


what it does. The are vague to what it means, is at the same as it got


us Parliament or is it a parliament, it is a parliament at the end of the


day. It is going to become a text variant, it is already law making,


let's call it what it is. People have much better what standing of


what the word Parliament means. Is it to do with status or is it to do


with power and do you think that power increasingly would be seen by


people to be something that is people painting at sharp contrast


with an age of 20 years ago that we were discussing which scenes are


very distant age nor? What you have the river is we have a referendum in


2011 to get more powers for the Assembly and it passed by 2-1, much


bigger margin than Brexit. We have to remember that in that referendum


people moved on from the idea of devolution and they wanted more


powers. See continuously from the polls that people are always open to


looking at more powers for this place. Is it a semantic change? The


change of the Assembly to a Parliament? No, I just think it


helps to give people a better understanding about this institution


actually does, more than just a word. The next elections are in


2021. Will you be First Minister at that point? I am reluctant to make


any changes, Brexit is so overwhelming as an issue at the


moment, I think it is important to me to be able to deal with that. One


I but Ejaria council I will be the longest serving leader there, longer


than any of them. Is that the hint that the Brexit issue has changed


your perspective on those timings? In terms of your future? In politics


you can never really predict how long you're going to be there, the


voters have a say on these things, like many other jobs, it is hugely


important to deal with issues surrounding Brexit and for me to


draw on the experience I have going back to 2009 as a First Minister at


2000 as a government blister and bring those to bear to help Wales


with those negotiations. Your message to view was as clear, when


the elections happen in 2021, you will still all things being equal,


good health, you will be First Minister at that point? I have no


plan to change, I am 50 so I'm still much younger than the Prime


Minister. That was unkind! I am older than Nicola Sturgeon and


Arlene Foster, I have still got plenty of drive in me. Because that


is the question isn't it? Having been first mentor of such a long


time you do get a personal thing to ask, it is a demanding job is the


ambition and energy stored there and the vision is still there? The


answer is yes but it is absolutely right that you have to ask yourself


in my position, the questionable claims, have you still got the drive


and the interest and the energy? I ask myself that all the time. And


the answer to those questions have been yes. First Minister, good to


talk to you. Thank you very much. But is it from Cardiff Bay with the


First Minister here. The very last edition of The Wales Report. Thank


you for watching for the past five years and thanks for supporting our


efforts relate to maintain the level of scrutiny in politics and public


life in Wales. It has never been more important than it is today. So


from the First Minister, from me, all of the team on The Wales Report,


thanks watching. Press the red button now


to get all the


For the final The Wales Report of the series, Huw Edwards is joined by first minister Carwyn Jones to discuss the ongoing Brexit negotiations, and 20 years after Wales voted for devolution - we look at its impact and ask what does the future hold?.

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