28/06/2017 The Wales Report


28/06/2017

For the final The Wales Report of the series, Huw Edwards is joined by first minister Carwyn Jones to discuss the ongoing Brexit negotiations.


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Transcript


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Tonight, in the final edition of the Welsh report, we're going to be in

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the chamber of the Senate in Cardiff Bay. I'll be joined by the First

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Minister in a few minutes. My word, there is a lot faster. About. The

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First Minister has been unstinting in his criticism of the deal done

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between Theresa May and the Democratic Unionist, but beyond the

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anger, what Kenny actually do about it? We will also talk about the

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importance of having a strong Welsh voice in the Brexit process, and

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that intriguing decision after six John six long years of deliberation

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over the circuit of Wales. Like to come and more.

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First Minister, thank you for talking to us.

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How does take the Welsh government six years to make a decision

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Well, bear in mind, the project changed many

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The financial ask changed several times.

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First of all, it was nothing, then it was 100% then it went

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to another model and then to another model, so, it's not

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as if the decision could have been taken six years ago,

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because it was a very different scheme at that time.

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Are you proud of the way the decision was taken

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Well, we tried to give the circuit an opportunity.

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The initial scheme, when wwere asked for a 100% guarantee,

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we could have said "No, go away," at that point.

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But we wanted to work with them to see if they could come up

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We set down conditions - unfortunately they weren't able

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to meet those conditions, so, what we tried to do

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with you give them every opportunity possible.

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That did take some time, but unfortunately, at the end,

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they weren't able to meet the conditions that we'd set down.

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Nothing in the process that you would do differently from the

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tried to give every opportunity possible to the circuit, two

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providers with a financial model that would work.

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We worked with them, but in the end, that model that

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they put forward wasn't one that was we could support.

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How can it be that just a few weeks ago, a senior civil

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servant can send an e-mail to the interested parties saying we don't

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think there is any big obstacle here.

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Does that suggest there is a lack of communication in the

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No, you have to remember the due diligence process

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took place and as a result of that do diligence process, problems were

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What we asked the cicuit to doas to come up with a scheme that

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be the risk would be spread 50-50 between

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private sector, but the scheme that was put forward the do diligence

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private sector, but the scheme that was put forward the due diligence

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that look at that scheme showed that in fact there was a serious risk

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that the government with a couple of the bill.

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If I was a major investor, I might say to you, "OK, I'm

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thinking of doing something pretty big in Wales.

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It will bring in jobs, it will make a big contribution

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something of the world governments might be quite interested in.

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If I look at the way this has been handled,

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and I'm doing it rather harshly maybe, I think it's taken in

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six years, OK, some things have changed in the meantime, it doesn't

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Why would I want these people as business

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Because we can say to them look at Aston Martin, look at Tata,

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look at Raytheon in the north, look at Airbus.

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Look at all these companies that we've worked with ,

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General Dynamics, who have been very happy with working

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We have a strong track record of attracting investment into

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It's why, of course, our unemployemnt level is lower

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we saw last year, for example, the best

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foreign investment figures that

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So, our record speaks for itself, but we can't support

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It has to work as far as the taxpayer is

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How enthusiastic were you about the scheme?

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What I wanted to do was to give every single

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opportunity for the circuit of Wales to come up with a scheme that would

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work as far as the taxpayer was concerned.

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Now, if we're going to be accused of anything,

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perhaps it's being to open to giving them that

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Unfortunately, it didn't work out, but, we will move forward with one

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part of the scheme, in effect, the The

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part of the scheme, in effect, the he

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scheme that could have created most of the jobs in reality and that it

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is a technology park in the heads of the valleys.

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That's where most of the jobs were, not actually in racetrack itself.

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Just close this one, you are telling voters very clearly that

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after this very long process, and there are a lot of disappointed

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people involved, you are saying that the Welsh government has

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handled this by the book and you don't think

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there is any problem with the process as we seen it?

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No, I don't, and I think we have handled it by

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the book and properly and we protected the taxpayer.

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On top of that, the bulk of the scheme, which

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would have provided most of the jobs will still go ahead.

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The circuit itself would only have provided

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it was never going to be 6000, but the thousands of jobs,

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were in the technology park that we are moving

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So, we're confident that we can create most of

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the jobs that the circuit would have created in the end.

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You're very clear about that and you were very

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clearly this week, when we spoke on the BBC News Channel,

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about the deal that Theresa May and the

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Conservatives have done with the Democratic Unionists in Northern

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You were clearly very angry, and frustrated about that.

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Some people thought that, in Whitehall,

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But you knew that, frankly, there was nothing

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wrong with the deal, you

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were just resentful and jealous about it.

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Probably the shabbiest deal I've ever seen.

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If I went to the Treasury and said, "Could I have some money for health

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pressures or for education," I'd be told where to go.

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I'd be told, "You've got that money already."

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?1 billion of funding, which normally is

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distributed through the Barnet form, which we keep on being told is

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There a very nasty message here, for even a politician

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of your status, which is that that Arlene Foster clearly has more

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The message is that the UK Government

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will sell England Scotland or Wales down the river in order to keep

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itself in power and will destroy the rules that have governed the way

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money is distributed across the UK to save their own political skins.

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Let's not pretend that the DUP won't come back in two years' time

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Maybe that's true, but it doesn't dicth get the basic

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truth which is that Arlene Foster has some leveraging Parliament

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and you, as First Minister, and in thiscase, the Labour Party, doesn't

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What this has done is weak and some of the barns that hold the UK

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together. Frankly all of this guff about this is something that will

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provide the UK with stable government is absolute nonsense.

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What has happened is that Northern Ireland has been bought off, that

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hostility is ending -- austerities ending in Northern Ireland with

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taxpayers' money from England Scotland and Wales. A short-term

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political gain for the Conservative Party is going to cause lasting

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resentment in all the countries of the UK. I absolutely regret that,

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because we have all said that the UK is transparent, then distributes

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money around according to wear a need should be. The Barnett forms

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used to be that, it doesn't do that any more. Now we know that money is

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attributed according to where votes can be bought. You're in Downing

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Street the minority, you need the votes, you look for deals. That's

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what she has done. The Labour government is out there absolutely

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hammering them. Because just because the DUP -- one part of the UK,...

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The Barnett for has been overridden. The Barnett form is often called

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unfair? It a preposterous to say that the Barnett form to beat money

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but not Northern Ireland. We have the major projects are the M4 relief

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road, we're told that we have to pay for that. Northern Ireland is told,

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don't worry, we will pay for that for you. It is the grubby as deal

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imaginable. I don't begrudge the people of Northern Ireland, how

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could I. If Northern Ireland gets the money that should be in

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equivalent share of Scotland Wales and even, but that hasn't happened.

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Was a lot of interest in what you had to say about the deal, because

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you mentioned possibly canvassing some legal options. I'm going to

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say, one unexpected summoning Downing Street, they said what's he

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talking about? There is nothing allotting that unlawful about this

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deal when the things we are doing is we're the dispute resolution

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process. The JNC is the body that brings... There is a dispute

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resolution process and exist there, where we feel that an item of

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expenditure has been spent in one part of the UK should have had a

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Barnett consequential. We have started that dispute. Do you have

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any confidence in that process? A dispute with the Treasury of the

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dispute, the current UK pop Constitution... What is the process?

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Usher the Scots will say that this is an underhand deal which drives a

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coach of horses in a way that money is distributed across the UK in it

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really does smack of hypocrisy. We will do all we can to make sure that

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Wales get its fair share. Not to undermine Northern Ireland or money

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they will get, but he say hang on a second, if you're ending austerity

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in Northern Ireland, then you should end austerity in the other three

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countries as well. If you are talking in legal terms what would be

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the legal basis of taking the Ford? How would you do that? That's

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something we are examining. The first step is the dispute resolution

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process and that we will take forward. So, it's a big threat, but

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not when you have thought three? There are some issues that we will

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take advice on. Early days. What I can say is that we will use every

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possible avenue to do this as far as Wales is concerned. Because, where

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is the secretary for Wales? Why isn't he saying hang on the should

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be more money for Wales? Where is the secretary of skills for Scotland

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the Carthago delenda when we spoke several months ago we

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had an exchange about how the Welsh voice to be heard around Brexit and

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how important that it be? We are in a different position now, a Prime

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Minister who might be recognised as being weekend, she's got issues with

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her backbenchers, very little room to manoeuvre Obama wrong to say that

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Mrs May is less likely to let listen to Mrs May? -- to listen to Wales?

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Any Brexit deal with the prior consent of the devolved legislation

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so I welcome that. It's something that I have been advocating. It is

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important because at the very beginning I said that it was hugely

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important that any deal should be ratified by four powers and it

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should be accepted across the UK. And I'm glad that it was accepted by

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the UK Government will stop is possible they were as Senate could

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not back that? -- the well said it could not back that got from my

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perspective, we're not in the business of trying to prevent

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Brexit. We are in the business of looking after Wales. The City of

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London is looked after, but Welsh farmers are forgotten about we will

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not stand for that. I'm glad the government has put accepted the

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principle of its consent. How would you characterise a reception you

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have had in London when you have made the case for the Welsh argument

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in terms Brexit? I'd irrespective? While they are not one government,

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they are just a collection of individuals with their own views.

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When I talk to David Davis, here's a list of the issues and I walk in the

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comments he has made. There are some, the Westminster is, the

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nationalist wing, the Conservative Party they feel the same way. The UK

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is the same in the as it was in 1973 when we join the Common Market. Full

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stop hopefully their voices will be tempered and pragmatic voices and

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will be heard. At the end of the day, the UK's unity will depend on

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what happens over the course of the next ten years. It's hugely

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important, as somebody who believes in devolution and believes that

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Wales has been part of the United Kingdom, that we don't create

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resentment that will linger and caused the UK to split up. I don't

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want to see that and it's hugely important that we take steps now to

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see that doesn't You said several times judge you by

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results, education in Wales, results have been disappointing in 2016,

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poorest performing part of the UK in terms of the Pisa results. The next

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ones in 2018, will your legacy be that Wales is still at the bottom of

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that pile when it? The Agassi is best GCSE results ever, A-level

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results have been proven, the payment being closed in Wales, the

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bottom schools are being lifted up, new schools being built across

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Wales, that is not happening in England. We have seen schools being

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able to good university because they get far better baggage of support

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and ligand. We work with the FA colleges to make sure they delivered

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the apprenticeships we need for our economy, none of these things were

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happening for devolution and we have shown that we put money into schools

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and from school at a high level and we are now seeing results improve to

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a point where we have had our best result ever. On the global yardstick

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of Pisa what is going to happen? We want to see the position improve. Do

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you think we will move off the bottom? Indication so far have been

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good. We're not at the bottom, we have done the least well of the four

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of the UK nations, but let's not say that we think Peter is great and we

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are proud of it, we are not, we want to improve. That the world, the

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measure. But the indications we have received have been living in the

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right direction in GCSE and A-level results and the facilities that

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children had to learn in. I have got children of school age so I see the

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difference that has been made by the money put in. Are you confident that

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Pisa performance will improve or not? We want to see that. It is

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difficult to predict because it measures education in a way that

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goes beyond the results that we see in GCSE and A-level and in some ways

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we have had to make sure that our schools are more aware of what is

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required when the Pisa tests take place because they don't teach to

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Pisa traditionally, but to GCSE and A-level and we have to make sure

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that there is greater understanding of Pisa in our schools. Burgeoning

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young people, it is 20 years since Wales voted narrowly to have a

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devolved government and to set up the institution, so what we did and

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I hope you will bear with me, talking to two and young women who

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were born 20 years ago, one in Pontypridd and one elsewhere and we

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have been asking their views about where Wales is 20 years on. My name

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is Rachel Hutchings, I am 20, Wales narrowly divided to be a devolved

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government, I was nine months old, growing up I haven't ever known

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different. I feel devolution is massively important to Wales. I am

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20 years old, when Wales voted to become involved, I was around three

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or four months old. I am a supporter of centralised government so I am

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not a massive fun of the Assembly. High, at nice to meet you. Hello.

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I believe that the Government and parliament should have most of the

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power. We have so many different layers of politics and

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representation that you don't believe the Assembly needs to be

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there. I feel that devolved government is important because it

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is not necessary the that every area of the UK is looking very same

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thing. Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, are not

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necessarily having the same problems with things at the forefront and

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Westminster doesn't often represent the issues that I think are

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fundamental in Wales. Do you really think the Welsh Assembly actually

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makes an impact on young people in Wales and actually represents us?

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For young people devolution has proved it has given us a lot of

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things, it is a lot easier for us to study and go to university and I was

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government, and it is things like that but I think young people in

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Wales even though they may not audibly discuss that much are very

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thankful to have. Or do you think young people in Wales are actually

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aware of the policy that Wales are actually in charge of? Personally

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know. I don't think people that I knew that went to school, I was in

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school with 17, 18, old enough to vote, and they used to say or tweet

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and I would play to them, education is awful at the moment or the NHS

:17:56.:18:02.

so-and-so, paying the sludge away they are having to wait so long,

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David Cameron at the time, why is he doing these things, he needs to that

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is the Welsh Assembly. If you have got a problem you need to go to the

:18:11.:18:14.

bus Assembly is not your MP. I think if a lot more young people somewhere

:18:15.:18:20.

to our own age group would have a bigger understanding of devolution

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met and what has been given to us that they were possibly care more

:18:23.:18:25.

and actively seek things out, to contact members of the Assembly.

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Don't you think it is important for us to have this institution is our

:18:31.:18:34.

voice going into these hugely important Brexit negotiations? If

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people are going to have the same from Wales, it is the Wales Office

:18:40.:18:42.

in the Government, the Secretary of State for Wales and its officers.

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They think he is really going to make the boys of Wales occurred in

:18:46.:18:49.

those locations. I don't think the Assembly will have much say. It

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seems by 2021 the National Assembly of Wales will be renamed Welsh

:18:55.:18:58.

Parliament, what is your opinion, do think that will change a thing? I

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think it is a waste of time. What is the point in changing the name. Do

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they think they would get more credibility by changing the name?

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Maybe they should gain more credibility by becoming a better

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government and more representative to the people. So would you be in

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favour of further powers being devolved to the Welsh Assembly in

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future? I would usually be in favour of that. In fact personally given

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the climate as a design award is not possible but in the future I would

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love to see an independent Wales and for all of our policy to take place

:19:27.:19:31.

here. I think we will have to agree to disagree. It is never going to

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happen. Here's to the future of Wales. And our thanks to Rachel

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Hutchings and Corrie Driscoll. Diametric call opposed views, I am

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wondering do you think that representative of public opinion in

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Wales? It was represented of of the views of those two people but we

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know from the polls that devolution is well-established in peoples

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minds, a seven-month sport these days compared to what the way things

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were 20 ago. Nobody ever says what do you think of Westminster or local

:20:08.:20:12.

government, shall we have local government? Sometimes we have to

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justify ourselves still but we know from the polls that people are very

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much supportive and Conservative edge devolution. Those are

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fundamental point about people's understanding of what is decided

:20:23.:20:26.

here and government in Wales and I think that has been a persistent

:20:27.:20:32.

issue across the 20 years. Is it disappointing? It is a question for

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politicians and media, is it disappointing that even today 20

:20:36.:20:40.

years on people clearly have in some cases are pretty foggy understanding

:20:41.:20:45.

of what the responsibilities are? Yes, there is more work to do for

:20:46.:20:48.

ourselves and the media. It is better than it was, no question

:20:49.:20:52.

about that, but the way the media has changed has meant that there is

:20:53.:20:56.

far more penetration of Welsh news in parts of Wales like the

:20:57.:20:58.

north-east where it was quite difficult before. I have noticed it

:20:59.:21:02.

on the doorstep when going to places like Easter adventure and there is

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far more of an understanding what is happening in terms of Welsh politics

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than ever in the past which is because the media is more

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fragmented, Facebook, that conveys messages as well. You as we are

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people generally absolutely aware of what each and choosing does, no not

:21:20.:21:26.

yet. Even for basic things like health, they still meet voters who

:21:27.:21:28.

frankly haven't clocked the fact that health is run here. Part of the

:21:29.:21:33.

problem is we don't have a strong print media in Wales in the same way

:21:34.:21:37.

that Scotland has an people read newspapers that carry news that is

:21:38.:21:40.

not relevant to them as of Wales was part of England. Bluntly I think

:21:41.:21:47.

there is a bias in terms of what happens in BBC in London towards

:21:48.:21:52.

London and Scotland, Scotland is oversupplied shall we say with

:21:53.:21:57.

journalists, Wales is undersupplied. An honourable exception... But it is

:21:58.:22:02.

an issue for us, but two weeks ago I saw a comment Arlene Foster carried

:22:03.:22:05.

on the news and it is a comment I used a few weeks ago with hardly any

:22:06.:22:09.

cupboard and I hope that has changed with some of the comments that I

:22:10.:22:12.

have made, but there is a tendency to ignore Wales and expressed

:22:13.:22:16.

surprise when we expressed strong opinions. Why is it so important to

:22:17.:22:21.

change this place name? Double better understand what the

:22:22.:22:26.

Parliament does. People don't fully understand what an Assembly is and

:22:27.:22:30.

what it does. The are vague to what it means, is at the same as it got

:22:31.:22:34.

us Parliament or is it a parliament, it is a parliament at the end of the

:22:35.:22:38.

day. It is going to become a text variant, it is already law making,

:22:39.:22:44.

let's call it what it is. People have much better what standing of

:22:45.:22:48.

what the word Parliament means. Is it to do with status or is it to do

:22:49.:22:52.

with power and do you think that power increasingly would be seen by

:22:53.:22:58.

people to be something that is people painting at sharp contrast

:22:59.:23:01.

with an age of 20 years ago that we were discussing which scenes are

:23:02.:23:04.

very distant age nor? What you have the river is we have a referendum in

:23:05.:23:07.

2011 to get more powers for the Assembly and it passed by 2-1, much

:23:08.:23:13.

bigger margin than Brexit. We have to remember that in that referendum

:23:14.:23:19.

people moved on from the idea of devolution and they wanted more

:23:20.:23:22.

powers. See continuously from the polls that people are always open to

:23:23.:23:28.

looking at more powers for this place. Is it a semantic change? The

:23:29.:23:34.

change of the Assembly to a Parliament? No, I just think it

:23:35.:23:37.

helps to give people a better understanding about this institution

:23:38.:23:40.

actually does, more than just a word. The next elections are in

:23:41.:23:44.

2021. Will you be First Minister at that point? I am reluctant to make

:23:45.:23:49.

any changes, Brexit is so overwhelming as an issue at the

:23:50.:23:53.

moment, I think it is important to me to be able to deal with that. One

:23:54.:23:58.

I but Ejaria council I will be the longest serving leader there, longer

:23:59.:24:01.

than any of them. Is that the hint that the Brexit issue has changed

:24:02.:24:05.

your perspective on those timings? In terms of your future? In politics

:24:06.:24:10.

you can never really predict how long you're going to be there, the

:24:11.:24:14.

voters have a say on these things, like many other jobs, it is hugely

:24:15.:24:20.

important to deal with issues surrounding Brexit and for me to

:24:21.:24:26.

draw on the experience I have going back to 2009 as a First Minister at

:24:27.:24:30.

2000 as a government blister and bring those to bear to help Wales

:24:31.:24:33.

with those negotiations. Your message to view was as clear, when

:24:34.:24:38.

the elections happen in 2021, you will still all things being equal,

:24:39.:24:41.

good health, you will be First Minister at that point? I have no

:24:42.:24:45.

plan to change, I am 50 so I'm still much younger than the Prime

:24:46.:24:51.

Minister. That was unkind! I am older than Nicola Sturgeon and

:24:52.:24:54.

Arlene Foster, I have still got plenty of drive in me. Because that

:24:55.:24:58.

is the question isn't it? Having been first mentor of such a long

:24:59.:25:02.

time you do get a personal thing to ask, it is a demanding job is the

:25:03.:25:06.

ambition and energy stored there and the vision is still there? The

:25:07.:25:10.

answer is yes but it is absolutely right that you have to ask yourself

:25:11.:25:12.

in my position, the questionable claims, have you still got the drive

:25:13.:25:17.

and the interest and the energy? I ask myself that all the time. And

:25:18.:25:21.

the answer to those questions have been yes. First Minister, good to

:25:22.:25:24.

talk to you. Thank you very much. But is it from Cardiff Bay with the

:25:25.:25:30.

First Minister here. The very last edition of The Wales Report. Thank

:25:31.:25:34.

you for watching for the past five years and thanks for supporting our

:25:35.:25:38.

efforts relate to maintain the level of scrutiny in politics and public

:25:39.:25:41.

life in Wales. It has never been more important than it is today. So

:25:42.:25:45.

from the First Minister, from me, all of the team on The Wales Report,

:25:46.:25:47.

thanks watching. Press the red button now

:25:48.:26:21.

to get all the

:26:22.:26:23.

For the final The Wales Report of the series, Huw Edwards is joined by first minister Carwyn Jones to discuss the ongoing Brexit negotiations, and 20 years after Wales voted for devolution - we look at its impact and ask what does the future hold?.


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