24/02/2013 The Wales Report

Another week and another scandal about our meat. We investigate what

is really going on between the farm gate and your plate.

More powers for the Assembly? Are they really up to it? And what can

be done to kick homophobia in Welsh sport into touch for good?

I could either be gay or be a professional rugby referee. It was

a difficult decision, the most difficult time of my life. So

difficult that it drove me to attempt to take my own life.

Good evening and welcome to the programme that examines the issues

that impact on our lives in Wales and scrutinises those making the

all-important decisions. Over the last couple of weeks there seems to

have been an endless stream of worrying stories about the meat and

what we might have been eating. Latest concerns in Wales revolve

around school dinners. In a country with a long tradition of producing

high quality meat, what is going wrong with the whole system? Just

why can't good quality, locally- produced food also be cheap enough

for most of us to afford? Helen Callaghan has been investigating

what exactly happens to our meat from farm gate to your plate, and

she has discovered some Welsh meat is sought-after and

enjoyed around the world. And now that consumers are very keen to

know exec the what they are eating and rarities from, what could be

more straightforward than eating Welsh meat from the fields and

hills all around us? Surprisingly, that is not always the case. If a

group of 100 sheep represented the lamb reproduced in Wales every year,

60 would go to the rest of the UK. Another 35 would be exported,

leaving just five in our field destined for Welsh dinner plates.

Ed, who farms in the Vale of Glamorgan, is convinced more people

here would love to buy more home reared meat, but only if the price

in the shops better reflected the praise he gets at the farm gates.

We have lost about 25 to 30% of the value of what we produce. There is

an awful lot of money going elsewhere, somebody is making money

with a lamb, we are not. Ed gets less than �100 for a lamb, but by

the time it is in the shops, the price of the lamb has more than

doubled. So is it the slaughterers and processes who are dipping their

fingers in the mint sauce and marking up the price of the lamb?

Not according to those who monitor the markets. The wholesale price

across the UK has also come down. In fact, the abattoirs and

processor eggs are being squeezed. Increasingly, the supermarkets are

the big players in the market. Their buying power can make or

break a product, and half the small abattoirs in Wales have shut down

since the 1990s, meaning animals often have to travel further before

slaughter. There are fewer and fewer plants that process red meat

in the UK. It is increasingly difficult to identify the

traceability of animals. We have seen these through... Particularly

with highly processed meat products. Finally, the cut and packed parcels

of meat end up in the supermarket. The farmers and the abattoirs and

processes are getting paid about a third less than last year. But the

price we are playing in the supermarket has hardly changed. One

of the big supermarket chains, Morrisons, say the market reflects

production costs and they in particular pay farmers a fair price.

I think if anybody ever goes into the processing plant, a meat

processing plant, they are struck by the sheer volume of people

working there, it is very labour- intensive, so there is a lot of

cost involved in taking the stock from the farm gates and then the

meat ending up on the supermarket I all the butcher shelf in the

supermarket, so that at some cost to to it. We pay our farmers a fair

price and often pay, for example, a bit more than the others are paying.

But there is another way, a Welsh wave. It bypasses the supermarkets

altogether. Douglas Willis control every stage of their food

production, rearing animals near Newport and selling products in

their shop. They can tell their customers exactly where it comes

from. We have full traceability from our farms to the abattoir to

our cutting plant and straight to the shops. This full traceability

means they can trust us. There is a saving, nobody else is involved. We

give the saving back to the customer. They say what has worked

for them could work across Wales. And it would help to address the

current concerns about food standards. Customers have seen what

can happen when prices are low and supply chains are long and they are

queuing up to get back to the local butcher. Business here has gone up

by a quarter since the horsemeat scandal. According to industry

experts, although exports will always be important for Welsh meat,

this is a unique opportunity for the Welsh meat industry to retarget

and roll its Hulme mass-market. -- and grow its home mass-market.

Ed and farmers like him would love to take the power back from the

supermarkets. He says it would be better for him and better for us.

think the reality is that what we get and what the consumer pays is

out of control in the supermarkets. We have become complacent, we are

under control of the supermarket, and they are not giving us enough

for what we are producing. So is it time for the Welsh Government to

become more involved in making good Welsh meet affordable for all of

us? -- Welsh meat. Helen Callaghan reporting. Joining

me now is the Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Food and Fisheries,

Labour's Alun Jones. Is the Government doing enough? I hope we

are. I announced a special package of support for lamb producers

saying we would work with individual businesses to make them

more efficient and enable them to sell on the product at a more

reasonable... Creating a more reasonable profit for themselves.

But at the same time, one of the points made in the report was about

the whole supply chain. We have said for some years that we need

greater transparency in this, but it is not sufficient to simply

blame the supermarkets, that is an inadequate response. We need to

look at the supply chain and ensure it is fair to everybody. If you

might say it is unfair to blame the supermarket, but they have an iron

grip on the market. It seems a bit barmy that we are producing all

this wonderful food, this magnificent meat coming out of

Wales, and only a small fraction has consumed here? I did not say it

was unfair, I said it was an inadequate response. We need to do

more than just blame the supermarkets. We need to make sure

there is profit available through the supply chain and good value for

the consumer. In terms of where we are, the amount of meat we produce,

we are a small country but we produce a lot of lamb, we are the

most significant producers in Europe, so we will always exported.

Coup at 95% of it, why don't we ensure that the market desire for

cheap food, good quality food, is being met more effectively? --

butter 95% of it. I think it is, but we will always export, we are

one of the great lamp producing nations of the world. We need to

ensure that Welsh lamb is available to more markets across the world

than ever before. One significant home market is local authorities -

schools, hospitals etc. Does their meat come from Wales? I hope so.

You don't know? If you look at the report about procurement, we have

made it clear that we want to see more procurement in Wales from

Wales? It is a matter for individual authorities to ensure

they get the best value for council tax payers. One question before we

move on, where does the Assembly get its meat? In terms of what

government and the Assembly, we ensure that it is produced from

Wales, I want to see Welsh producers producing food for us.

all the food consumed by the Assembly is Welsh produce? I can't

give you guarantees. Why not? want to see procurement acting as a

tool to enable us to invest in the third production market. But it

starts at home, and home in your case is the Assembly. Are you

saying you can't tell me whether the meat consumed there is Welsh?

The Assembly in Cardiff Bay is a very small element of what we are

about. But it is symbolic. Yes, but we were talking about milk last

summer, I tried to make the point that the total Welsh procurement is

not the answer to the issues facing the market. The issues facing the

markets are far more fundamental and wider. With respect, what we

need to do was unsure that the Welsh lamb producers is efficient -

- is ensure that Welsh lamb production is efficient. And that

the processing facilities ensure that their profit is derived for

every element of the food chain. With respect, I do have not answer

the question, can you give me and the people of Wales and assurance

that consuming Welsh products starts at home, that the Assembly

is consuming Welsh meat, Welsh produce? The Assembly is governed

by members, not the Government. so you can't give me that

assurance? It is not my gift to give. It is a tiny, tiny issue,

frankly, and it does not address the fundamental issues facing the

industry. You might be interested in Cardiff Bay, I am interested in

the rest of Wales. In the rest of Wales we have a tremendous food

production sector producing excellent products and produce, I

am concerned that my mother and other people's mothers elsewhere

come by that in their local supermarket, their local shops,

wherever they live. What many people watching tonight will want

is a guarantee about the quality of the food, they want to buy Welsh

food but at a price they can afford. What will you do to help? We can

provide that guarantee of assurance. One of the things you saw in that

report was the European issue which guarantees that Welsh lamb is

sourced in Wales and which meets a very significant quality threshold.

We can provide that guarantee. What I think we need to do, a real

challenge facing us, is to ensure that food is delivered to the

consumer at a fair price which the consumer can afford. Thank you. Now,

you might think that pantomime season is over.

Yes? Well, oh, no it isn't! According to the First Minister's

political opponents, anyway. In the week that the Welsh government said

it would like more powers to be devolved to Cardiff Bay, the Wales

Report has been asking are they - or us - ready for it? Opposition

politicians say they already have enough difficulty getting answers

to questions on existing policy areas, and Punch and Judy style

politics is getting in the way of real debate. David Williams has a

front-row seat for the biggest Richard Rogers, the eminent

architect, dismissed his critics and told me that what he had

creators was just a small house on the Bay. It was a modest

description of what was a very beautiful place with a very big

message to convey. That the home of Wales has New democracy was open

for business. It is a wonderful idea of this. A glass gallery from

which we can watch politicians at work. Democracy at its transparent

best. There is no hiding place in this bubble. Good for democracy,

but not so good when those who worked here start trading insults

with each other instead of engaging in serious debate. What discussions

have there been? Many. I am pleased to hear that. Thank you for your

There is increasing concern that while the Assembly building itself

has been something of a winner, those who inhabit it have not been

such a success with the public. First Minister's Question Time, a

weekly forum intended as a showcase of political debate, often

degenerates into petty squabbling. That is why I am here today. It was

a chance to meet those who defend the Labour government. This woman

is still fiercely defensive of the current First Minister and does not

share the view that First Minister's questions is an

important public dwindled to this place. Nobody watches of this.

they should. You have said this is a theatre. This is not as important

as what we are delivering on the ground. The important part of what

is going on here or art the Assembly members holding the

government to account? It takes two to tango. And the Conservative

member for the opposition is no pushover. You are acting like a

petulant child. Perhaps we should buy you a romper suit. A former it

turned politician, he knows a thing about herding animals. But the

human variety here confined him. He wants a review of Assembly

procedures in attempt to increase public engagement. I am a street

fighter at the end of the day. I did not vote for higher education

paid for by the state. My life was selling potatoes and farm produce.

Now I have a suit and a silk tie. I am prepared to have a fight if I

need to. I am also very came in to provide solutions to problems.

Their new leader on the block is Plaid Cymru's leader. She has

described First Minister's Question Time as... Are you insulted by it?

Some times, I do feel insulted on behalf of the New democracy we have

got here. People deserve to hear their ministers justifying their

policies. How can you and the Welsh public have any confidence in a

health minister the refuses to be straight with ours? For some reason,

Carwyn Jones seems at to single out the Liberal Democrat leader for

particular attention. We think very carefully about what questions we

are asking, about devolved issues, things that ministers should care

about and take action on. But he very rarely gives a straight answer.

He is more interested in trying to avoid giving an account of himself

and his government. Will you try again this afternoon? Yes, we will.

And here they come up for another round of First Minister's Question

Time. Another chance for the opposition to put the First

Minister and his deputies on the spot. To get a more intimate feel

of what it is really like, it is best to observe from the same level

on which they operate. Here, you can see it all and you begin to

wonder weather transparency is such a good thing. -- 1 De whether. If

they paid more attention, they might appreciate more what is going

on. I'd read, he is on a lead. think we are allowed to answer this.

It has been an interesting day at the Welsh Assembly. It is a

different place to the one that I remember, or is it? Was my view of

the place obscured by my need to look at it through the prism of

professional duty? Released from such responsibilities, I now see it

for what it is. But it is probably wise for me to keep my council and

my opinion to myself. It is easy enough. Take a peek through the

looking-glass. David Williams with his take on

what goes on at the Assembly. Well, joining me now is someone who has a

rather different opinion to David the Labour Assembly Member Vaughan

Gething. What do you make of that? It is a

pretty stilted view. In reality, First Minister's questions is an

opportunity for members to raise a host of issues. Is anybody any good

at it? Is that Chamber not just full of hot air? It has not

captured the public imagination of. I think it is very different to

Westminster. Their tradition and the set-up is completely different

to Prime Minister's questions. But some people are better at it than

others. Surely you have to acknowledge that the level of

debate is generally pure, the level of visibility is the generally poor.

-- generally poor. People are not being fired up by it. There is much

more to debate than First Minister's questions. There is a

lot of work done in committee room. Senior figures, of all political

persuasion, they are not engaging with the public enough, they are

not visible enough. People do not know who they are. I am always

happy to engage with the public. That might be true of you, but what

about the rest of them? I would not accept that this is about senior

figures are failing to engage. There is a wider problem of how

people communicate and engage with politicians. Is a problem not that

the politicians in the Assembly, you have got to get the message out

to the people of Wales and that is not happening. Communication is

very poor. There is more than one problem here. There is a problem in

the media... Is it our fault? people get their information from

other sources, unlike Scotland for example. Social media is different

now. When I was young, and there were only three or four channels,

people had to get the information through other channels. I'd be

engaging people in the Assembly is a longer term process. There is a

real problem in engaging the public in politics. I recognise I have a

duty to go up there and be proactive. And I think people in

all parties in the Assembly would accept that as well. It cannot be...

There is a big challenge for all of us. Just look at when the debate

happens on one particular section in the Assembly. Thank you. Now, as

we've been hearing, swapping insults, in a light-hearted way of

course, might be part of the cut and thrust of politics, but just

when does banter cross the line into bullying? In the sporting

world, pitch side participation is key in the enjoyment of sporting

events, but a recent survey by Sport Wales and the gay rights

group Stonewall Cymru showed that up to 75% of people taking part in

sport have heard homophobic banter. And revealingly in professional

sport in this country, there are only a handful of athletes who have

publicly said they are gay. Rugby referee Nigel Owens, the first

openly gay man to referee at international level returns to his

home club Pontyberem RFC to explain how he thinks homophobia in sport

Being an international referee can be a lonely job. The final word,

the authority figure and the butt of many a joke. But that is nothing

at all compared to the loneliness of concealing your own sexuality.

The human spirit goes through anguish to comply with the world's

prejudice. And the sporting world is behind the rest of society. It

is a deep-rooted problem. In a recent survey, 75% of people said

When I started my refereeing career, I knew that because of the

homophobia that existed in sport, I could either be gay or a

professional will be refereed. It was a difficult decision to make

there was difficult time of my life. So difficult that it drove me to

attempt to take my own life. I came out at the beginning of my

international career. Gareth Thomas kick-out awards at the end of his.

I hope that what we have both done is a tremendously important thing

that will show people the way forward. We have all long way to

goal but we have a responsibility. Homo phobia in sport is

unacceptable. We have to encourage gay, lesbian and bisexual people to

feel safe and be included what ever their chosen sport. The best way to

do that is to lead by example. We need role models at the top end of

the sport had to give a clear and positive message. Intolerance

towards gay people is not acceptable. Rugby has spoken.

Football, we are waiting for you. The international rugby referee

Nigel Owens there. Joining me now is Laura McAllistair, the chair of

Sport Wales. I'll be 20 years behind in the sporting world?

are much further behind on the issue of sexual orientation in

sport than we are on the race and disability. It is important that

the address of this agenda. There is still a lot of homophobia in

sport. It is not just about professional sport. It is about

sport in school and all the way up. Would it help if big name its

spores men came out? -- sports men. It is tremendously helpful if that

were to happen. How do we stop the name-calling from the terraces?

need better education amongst our school teachers to be aware of all

the issues that face children. We need our clubs and our governing

bodies to buy into this agenda. And they are starting to. We have

launched a lesbian, gay and bisexual network. People are taking

this seriously. They are taking this seriously and the

organisational level, but it is actually at they are so routes with

the message needs to get across. -- grassroots. Nigel Owens says it is

time for football to catch up. cannot force individuals to come

out and they would not wish to do that. It is good and proper that

there is a range of role models, but we need to look at the reasons

why football does not have high profile out gay footballers. That's

it for this week's programme. I'll be on Week In Week Out on Tuesday

investigating sham marriages and Huw Edwards will be back with the

Wales Report next week. You can get in touch with us about the issues