23/06/2011 This Week


23/06/2011

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Tonight, This Week takes an all expense spared trip to sun-drenched

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Greece. Should we prepare to bail out the broken Greek economy? Will

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Hutton thinks it's money well spent. The bubbles in the Greek economy

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have gone flat. We in Britain do all we can to bring back the fizz,

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even helping to pay the bar bill. As President Obama orders the

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military to start to pack its bags and head home from Afghanistan, the

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BBC's number one, John Pienaar, is Centre Court at Wimbledon.

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OK, Cameron is on top. Britain's number one. Could he ever have

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thought it could be this tough? With a potential washout at

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Glastonbury, we look for some musical agitaters. Stewart Lee

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thinks it all got too corporate. Should pop and politics go hand in

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hand? Are they as toxic a mix as Glastonbury mud?

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I know, you wish you weren't here! Evening all. Welcome to my big, fat

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This Week. We have been grum pier than a Greek bus driver who can no

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longer retire on full pension at 50. Why is that, I hear you cry? He was

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not invited to the royal wedding or Olympics. Fear not, things are

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looking up. The first invite to pop on to our doormat was to Last

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Nights transgender party, at Downing Street - naturally. Call me

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gay friendly Dave was the perfect host. He joked that "Siena Millar

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is here tonight. They have had two of the most prominent Queens in 24

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hours! Our next invite came from the gift which keeps on giving -

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little Leo Blair's end of term party, all at the cost of �10 a

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head. What's the coach fair? Don't they know you can get two bottles

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of Blue Nun, and one night's subscription to Babe Station for

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that? The final stiffy to arise our

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interest, to the 40th birthday party of the Chancellor, little Boy

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George. He themed his coming of age party. He made the inspired choice

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of midsummer. Probably because it's in the middle of June. We party the

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night away with a motly bunchch of -- bunch of white Middle Englanders.

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I am joined on the sofa by two of Westminster's biggest party animals.

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Call them the Anna Nicole Smith of last-night chat. They are wearing

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their prisoner chic. Other than your two shirts what has been your

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moment of the week? Mark Pritchard, not normally my cup of tea. He

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introduced a motion, wanting to ban animals from circuses. He revealed

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that this item seemed so important to the Prime Minister, that firstly

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Mark Pritchard had been offered some kind of job that he withdraw.

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That secondly he was threatened by Number Ten if he did not withdraw

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his motion and was told the Prime Minister would view the matter very

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dimly indeed. It makes you wonder what Number Ten is up to, or what

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the Prime Minister is up to, bothering in a question as to

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whether a backbench MP puts forward a motion, which has no effect in

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law, about whether to ban circus animals or not. We are not at war,

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there's not a sovereign debt crisis. Why not? I loved when he said "I

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may be just a boy from a council estate, but I won't be intimidated

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or threatened by the Prime Minister." He said, a council

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estate and had some back bone and would look for some spine elsewhere.

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I thought this was a telling remark. We had him on The Daily Politics.

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He said it was time the Tory had more people like him and less old

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Etonians. It was Wednesday, Prime Minister's Questions, when I saw

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the start of the Prime Minister's U-turn when Ed Miliband asked him,

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why are you taking the DNA of people arrested for rape off of the

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DNA database, you would see him saying that, "we're not doing that

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surely?" I've seen this as a car crash waiting to happen for a long

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time. When we get to report stage, there's no date for it yet, I think

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people will start realising this is, not only are they cutting police

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numbers, not only are they forcing these elected commissioners on a

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reluctant police force, they are hampering their ain't to catch

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people guilty of rape and murder. Greece... Greece! Sandy beaches,

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turquoise sea. I can see myself there now with oust oust in one --

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with ouzo in one hand and olives in the other. They have the largest

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cuts in modern history. Call me Dave isn't here, he has been in

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Brussels. Ducking and diving. We caught up with Will Hutton, just

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off the Eurostar, to find out why he thinks it would be bonkers not

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The remarkable St Pancras international station, just another

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symbol of how close our relationships are with Europe.

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Thousands of passengers go here every day to the continent. If you

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need time -- if you think times are tough in Britain, in Greece

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financial turmoil is raging. The Greeks are up in arms. In effect,

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the country is broke. Without hundreds of billions from the IMF

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and the European Union, the Government can't pay its bills. The

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price is high. One in five Greek public sector workers are to lose

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their jobs. Swinging tax increases and the biggest, fastest

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privatisation programme ever. Euro- skepics from Boris Johnson, to Jack

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Straw are united. What's going on in Europe is for them and their ill

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conceived euro, we'll stay well out of. David Cameron talks about

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dealing with a crisis that could overwhelm all of us, not a penny or

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a creative lead is in offer from The bubble may have bust in the

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Greek economy, but the idea what's going on there doesn't affect us is

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just bonkers. We can't put to one side what's happening in Greece.

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Sooner or later it will affect us. Our banks have lent the best part

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of a trillion euro to European banks and companies. If Greece is

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for toss re-pay debts on a scale larger than what Germany was asked

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to do after repaying after World War I, I have no doubt Greece will

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default on its debts. Ireland, Portugal and Spain could follow

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suit. The euro would collapse. We'd be in the middle of a financial

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disaster. So what to do? Britain needs to

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stand up for Europe and for Greece. David Cameron, instead of appeasing

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his Euro-sceptic backbenchers needs to publicly assure the Europeans in

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the eurozone that Britain will do everything in its power to help.

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That means putting our hand in our pockets.

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Will Hutton must be the cheapest champagne in Britain if.... That's

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where I am going next time. He was in the railway station in St

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Pancras. Here he is. Welcome back. Let me start with the stripy

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brothers here. Is Will right? Should the European Union,

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including the United Kingdom, do everything to keep Greece afloat

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and in the euro? Will is absolutely right that the Prime Minister

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should not say he's not going to have anything to do with this. It

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made me very unhappy when he said that. Will is right, that this

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crisis is all-embracing of incredible importance and will

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sweep us all away unless we handle it correctly. If problem is, I

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don't think the European Union is about rescuing Greece. It is about

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rescuing the euro. The United Kingdom doesn't have much of an

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interest in rescuing the euro in the sense of preserving the euro

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with all the member countries who are presently in it as members in

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the future. It may be much more sensible to let Greece go. They are

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not willing to contemplate that. Should we be willing to give money

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to Greece? We will have to participate in one of the

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mechanisms. That is the IMF? That happens. Should we, as Will's

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implication, pony up alon with the -- along with the rest of the

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eurozone to help? I think we should say we wish to participate in the

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leadership of the problem. It will probably cost us money. Yes. Where

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are you? We should either donate a penny or some bright ideas. I agree

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with the bright ideas. Ed Balls made the point about us being in

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the position, because our banks are not as exposed as German and French

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banks, we could be the broker here. We're not part of the euro. Where

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is Gordon Brown when you need him? He would be in with ideas about how

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to solve this. Another package will not solve this. Another package,

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another austerity package will not solve this. There needs to be

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another bail out? We are spectators at this kind of unbelievable event.

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Greece is being asked by the IMF and the European Union between

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2012-2015, to pay nearly as much in that period as the Germans were in

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reparation payments after World War I. At the same time, their economy

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will be three more years of decline. They will not do it. It is mission

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impossible. We are spectators, watching a mission impossible

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unfolding, which we are going to be hurt by as the consequences of this

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escape being made... I get that. You say we should throw money in

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there. We should be part of the next bail out. Are you saying

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however much it will cost, it will be money well spent? I am saying

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that we should attempt to shape a bail out, it shares the pain out

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more eke Qatarably. The creditors to Ireland, to Portugal,

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simultaneously have to accept they will not get their money back in

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full. They will not get it back in three, four, five years thaism will

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get it back over 25 years -- they will get it back over 25 years.

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That is what they will not agree to and the European Central Bank?

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There's been an argument between the central bank and the French, in

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which the Germans want something like this and the central bank and

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the French oppose it. Chancellor Merkel has appealed to the BRITs to

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come -- Brits to come to the party, put some money on the table and

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maybe Britain and Germany could shape a better deal for Greece than

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the one that is unfolding before our eyes. The grave danger is we

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are going to watch Greece defaulting in a kind of Lehman

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Brothers event. We've got, you can argue about the numbers, some say

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700 billion euro, think it is nearer one trillion. They have

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enormous loans out to eurozone Governments and Governments.

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companies. Is Will right, that if it goes

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pear-shaped in Greece, there's an automatic contagion to Portugal -

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Yes. It is by far the biggest threat to the British economy and

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the world economy that is present at the moment. He isn't saying that

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there is a bail out, he's saying that the people and the private

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sector have to now participate. precisely. The imaging, as it were,

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Euro-sceptic position is that unless there's holes are plucked

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now, all that is going to happen is that five years down the line the

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burden passed to tax payers is going to be even greater. Unless we

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get the private sector to participate in the pain, it's all

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going to be mounting upon the taxpayer. Are we right to think

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this is another Lehman Brothers? In many ways, we didn't see it coming.

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This, by virtue of the fact that we are all talking about this, we see

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it coming? We do, but it doesn't make it any less profound in terms

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of its effects. In terms of the tour in Parliament about how we can

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just wash our hands of it, we are not in the euro, it is their

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problem, it is our problem as well. There are two fans of money, the

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mechanism and the facility. We are part of one and not part of the

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other. We didn't put anything into the original bail out. I can

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understand elected politician saying, look, we are not going to

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ban taxpayers' money into it. It doesn't mean to say we are not in

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the game of showing some leadership. When I originally heard what you're

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going to say, I thought you were going to say that there has to be a

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lot more money given to Greece, an even bigger bail out and less

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emphasis on austerity. What you are really talking about is a default,

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by any other name? And talking about an orderly, organised bail-in.

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Organised by the IMF, everybody is guide to the part of it, the bond

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holders take their coat. It's not a default if the country which is...

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If the country that withholds the obligation says, fine, I'm going to

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carry on paying vet. The trouble is, what may happen is that they might

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default and not pay anything to anybody. If we are going to get the

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right answer we have to be not frightened by particular words.

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People keep saying, we can't have a default, it's a bad thing, but it

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might be worse... Most analysts in the city grave. Other people are

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saying that Greece can't leave the euro. That bad, but it might not be

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as bad as the alternative. Greece, it's going to be really

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hard. Leaving the euro could itself precipitate the collapse of the

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Greek banking system. It's a Shangri-La world going on. The ECB

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and the French, and, so far, the German's official line, they don't

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want to go through the route that we are suggesting, default. They

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say even if you spread out the credit, it's a credit event and

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counts as a default. The people of Rhys will determine this. Not a

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single civil servant has lost their job yet. Not a single public asset

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has been privatised. I put it to you, it will not happen. I was

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hearing the other day they have an incredible situation where a

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pharmacy get guarantees 35% profits. Paying your taxes is a kind of

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voluntary procedure over in Greece. There is not an easy option. There

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should be a substantive conversation between the Europeans,

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the Americans, the whole of the G7, even the big countries. The IMF

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warned last week that there could be a second financial crisis. It

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will start here. The Prime Minister of Britain should not be talking

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about red tape in Brussels this weekend. It's madness. Could the

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Prime Minister series to carry his party at the put British taxpayer

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money behind a quick bail out? in isolation. If the Prime Minister

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seems a position of leadership, I think almost anything is possible.

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We will have to leave it there, fascinating subject. What do you

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think will have to happen? I think what will happen is that we will

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buy two or three months of time. Ultimately, the Greek positional

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breakdown, the opposition are behind the package, Greece will

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actually default within the eurozone. I think the Irish and

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Portuguese will follow suit, there will be substantive write-offs.

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They knew I into territory that none of us can predict. I agree, it

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will be fascinating. Now, it is late, but we are ready to pile

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through to 6am. That is when the last dregs of Olympic tickets go on

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sale. It is Michael's last chance to get a front row seat at the

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Greco-Roman wrestling. For those of you with less primeval tastes, we

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will soon be joined by one of Britain's Ms sophisticated stand-up

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comedians, Stewart Lee. He's wondering why the music scene has

:18:53.:18:57.

lost its sense of political mischief. For those of you who

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share Mr Portillo's love of the bear-pit, there is always the

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dealers comments page. Or you can join the baying mob, as always, on

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Twitter. It's an edged tonight that Ed

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Miliband wants to change the way that beta selects its Shadow

:19:12.:19:18.

Cabinet to a system of one man, one vote. To be precise, the one man is

:19:18.:19:25.

his vote. At the moment, Labour MPs choose who is in the Crazy Gang. He

:19:25.:19:29.

thinks it should be up to him alone. I bet the current Shadow Cabinet

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and over the moon with that overwhelming show of confidence. It

:19:32.:19:36.

looks like the lobbying of Diane Abbott has finally paid off.

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Fortunately, there are still places left where competition is cherished.

:19:41.:19:51.
:19:51.:19:56.

Like Wimbledon, where we sent to Tracey. How are you? I'm ready.

:19:56.:19:59.

You've got to get ready, cut the unforced errors down. Lots of

:19:59.:20:03.

movement with your feet, you got to be aggressive, finish the point of

:20:03.:20:08.

at the net and get tough. A big match... Big-match! Keep the feet

:20:08.:20:13.

moving. Stand on the back. Remember, first we need to take this press

:20:13.:20:18.

off. I got to take this off? Yes, I hear that David Cameron is a good

:20:18.:20:26.

player, you've got to play well # If somebody is going to make it,

:20:26.:20:36.
:20:36.:20:42.

Just like Cameron. Smooth, graceful, born to be at the top, no wonder

:20:42.:20:46.

half the country can't stand him. But it was so much easier on the

:20:46.:20:49.

way up. Criticising the Labour Rousell on the other side of the

:20:49.:20:54.

net. Now every game is harder than the last one, like dropping the

:20:54.:20:57.

idea of half of your sentence if you are a criminal and plead guilty

:20:58.:21:02.

early on. Deon Strong is about being compared to admit you didn't

:21:02.:21:06.

get everything right the first time. -- being strong. That is exactly

:21:06.:21:10.

what we are doing with this. I think that's the right process to

:21:10.:21:14.

follow. That's the style. Even if you miss a point, make it look like

:21:15.:21:20.

it's all part of a plan. I've done many baulks in my time. They should

:21:20.:21:27.

be done with purpose and panache when you have to do them. -- many

:21:27.:21:33.

U-turn in my time. I actually don't think this is a U-turn tour. Look

:21:33.:21:38.

at Ken Clarke, catgut strings, wooden racket, plays his own game,

:21:38.:21:48.
:21:48.:21:58.

never learned any different. You've One thing I have learned, it's a

:21:58.:22:03.

team game. OK, I like being in the spotlight, admittedly. But why

:22:03.:22:07.

can't my team just do their job and make me look good? Cameron must

:22:07.:22:10.

feel that way about the generals complaining about the men and

:22:10.:22:15.

resources they have to do the job in Libya. Now Obama says he wants

:22:15.:22:19.

30,000 out by next year. The generals are going to be saying,

:22:19.:22:23.

Prime Minister, do things at your own pace. There are moments when I

:22:23.:22:26.

wake up and read the newspapers and think, tell you what, you do the

:22:26.:22:32.

fighting, I'll do the talking. that a stumble? A mistake? Just a

:22:32.:22:36.

bit too cocky. Miliband is trying to make him pay. Let me say this to

:22:36.:22:44.

him and Olsson Senate seat -- in all sincerity. When our military

:22:44.:22:49.

chiefs raised concerns and raised legitimate concerns about the

:22:49.:22:52.

conduct of about operations, surely it's not the right thing to say to

:22:52.:22:56.

say you did the fighting, I'll do the talking? In retrospect, Mr

:22:56.:23:01.

Speaker, wasn't that very crass and high-handed? Second service.

:23:01.:23:05.

only point I have tried to make in recent days is that I think when

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you at war, and we are in both Afghanistan and Libya, I think it's

:23:09.:23:13.

very important, whether you are a political or military leader, to

:23:13.:23:18.

think very carefully about what you are about to save. Still, it looks

:23:18.:23:21.

as if Ed Miliband has learned that you trick shots. Maybe there is

:23:21.:23:24.

time for him to turn this thing around. But all of these Labour

:23:25.:23:28.

players have the same problem. When it comes to strike action, they got

:23:28.:23:32.

to choose their words carefully, especially with all of these

:23:32.:23:36.

strikes coming up over pension reform. The trade unions must not

:23:36.:23:41.

walk into the trap of giving George Osborne the confrontation he wants

:23:41.:23:47.

to divert attention from a failure call it -- a quality -- failing

:23:47.:23:57.
:23:57.:24:02.

Yes, there he is. John Pienaar is coming out on to Centre Court. Just

:24:02.:24:12.
:24:12.:24:23.

John Pienaar, what a rally. Michael, Mr Obama's speech, he clearly can't

:24:23.:24:27.

wait to get out of Afghanistan quickly enough. What do you make of

:24:27.:24:31.

it? I think the Taliban will understand that perfectly clearly.

:24:31.:24:34.

They will just be hanging around until American forces have gone.

:24:34.:24:37.

It's quite interesting that he now defines the mission as being what

:24:37.:24:44.

it was originally, a very long time ago, simply to deny it as a safe

:24:44.:24:49.

haven for Al-Qaeda. You know, the American public will believe that

:24:49.:24:53.

is given greater force by the fact Osama Bin Laden has been told. It's

:24:53.:24:57.

a great pity, I think, that we departed so far from that objective

:24:57.:25:02.

of denying Al-Qaeda a base in Afghanistan. Of course, any broader

:25:02.:25:08.

objective now looks rather absurd. Because Al-Qaeda is now well

:25:08.:25:12.

established in other countries. Shall we open a book on how long

:25:12.:25:15.

President Karzai will last in Kabul after the allied forces have gone?

:25:15.:25:20.

A week, 10 days, a month? I think the outlook for Afghanistan is

:25:20.:25:25.

pretty grim. Especially if you are a woman. Between now and 2005,

:25:25.:25:29.

there will be some political process. I wouldn't rule out of aka

:25:29.:25:33.

oh you don't think it's a foregone conclusion? I wouldn't rule out

:25:33.:25:36.

that a coalition could emerge between tribesmen, Taliban and

:25:36.:25:40.

Hamid Karzai. The American electoral process is taking a big

:25:40.:25:46.

role. Is it for re-election in 2012. As in this country, the war is

:25:46.:25:50.

unpopular. It would be popular in this country if Mr Cameron could

:25:50.:25:54.

speed up withdrawal as well? I wish Obama was doing it for security

:25:55.:25:59.

reasons. I suspect it's about the politics. He's going against the

:25:59.:26:03.

advice of General Petraeus, against the advice of his own retiring

:26:03.:26:10.

Defence Secretary. And joint chief of staff? Yeah. Cameron, I'm really

:26:10.:26:14.

worried about setting a date. Michael has lots of experience as

:26:14.:26:20.

Defence Secretary. When I was in Afghanistan as Home Secretary, the

:26:20.:26:24.

importance to morale of the troops of not signalling when this is

:26:24.:26:29.

going to come to one end, I think it is really important. I think the

:26:29.:26:33.

chairman of the Defence Select Committee, James Arbuthnot, is

:26:33.:26:38.

absolutely right to worry about this. Both in America and the UK,

:26:38.:26:45.

it's not doing a great deal of good for our troops' morale, or for the

:26:45.:26:50.

issues they have secured, the gains they have made. I just think it's

:26:50.:26:54.

about politics, not about security. We heard William Hague talking this

:26:54.:26:59.

morning, we will be there until 2015, then afterwards but not as a

:26:59.:27:04.

fighting capacity. Can we be blunt? The Americans set the pace on the

:27:04.:27:08.

disengagement. If the Americans are going, we have to go, they provide

:27:08.:27:14.

their whole infrastructure which all forces operate on there? We are

:27:14.:27:17.

in there because the United States I in there, we will be out of there

:27:17.:27:20.

because they are getting out of there. We will get out as quickly

:27:20.:27:25.

as them question that we are an entirely junior partner, and Thai

:27:25.:27:35.
:27:35.:27:38.

elite -- and entirely secondary We were fighting in two theatres at

:27:38.:27:42.

the same time, at the same time as cutting the defence budget.

:27:42.:27:47.

struck by Mr Obama talking about the cost in terms of lives and in

:27:47.:27:53.

many of this twice as long as the Second World War operation. It's

:27:53.:27:57.

worth just thinking about that. He said it was time for nation-

:27:57.:28:01.

building at home. You are bound to be saying that when you are coming

:28:01.:28:06.

up for re-election and you have to 9.5% unemployment. I wonder if

:28:06.:28:12.

there is a danger at some stage if Libya will become that for others,

:28:12.:28:15.

at some stage we will think the cost is too much and it will be

:28:15.:28:19.

time for nation-building at home? We saw the cost revealed this week.

:28:19.:28:25.

It is much more than was predicted. I still support... I supported

:28:25.:28:29.

resolution 1973. I am becoming more and more concerned that this is

:28:29.:28:34.

about us supporting the weaker side in a civil war, rather than

:28:34.:28:39.

supporting a popular uprising. The longer it goes on... You are

:28:39.:28:45.

getting nervous? I am, quite frankly. I've always wondered, is

:28:45.:28:50.

it a civil war popular uprising? It looks more like the former than the

:28:50.:28:54.

actor -- latter. As former defence secretary, you had to deal with the

:28:54.:28:58.

top brass. Let me ask you two questions. Are the top brass are

:28:58.:29:04.

more outspoken than ever before? In recent times, recent memory, in our

:29:04.:29:09.

military? And was Mr Cameron right to a kind of slap them down? And I

:29:09.:29:16.

put that in quotes. Yes, they are more outspoken, no, he was wrong to

:29:16.:29:19.

slap them down. Nothing made me more annoyed than when the military

:29:19.:29:24.

spoke out of turn, and they did occasionally. What I then did was I

:29:24.:29:28.

summoned them for what was known as an interview without coffee.

:29:28.:29:32.

show you were really, really angry question are privately, they would

:29:32.:29:36.

come in and I would say, look, we are working together. We have made

:29:36.:29:41.

our decisions jointly, we have some difficulties making the decisions.

:29:41.:29:46.

We have made the decisions together and I don't expect you to speak out

:29:46.:29:49.

of line. Because of their sense of honour, they found this terribly

:29:49.:29:53.

embarrassing when they were caught out against the Secretary of State.

:29:53.:30:01.

But I think they have to be done in The phrase, I'll to the talking,

:30:01.:30:08.

they should to the fighting - was a mistake? I am afraid so. Kenneth

:30:08.:30:11.

Clarke - we saw there on our film. You are a former Home Secretary,

:30:11.:30:16.

you know what it's like. He's the Justice Secretary. He has a big

:30:16.:30:20.

part of the responsibility as you have before it was split. Did you

:30:20.:30:24.

see that U-turn coming? Did you understand that was what was going

:30:24.:30:28.

to happen? Yes. I think this is different n the sense that Cameron

:30:28.:30:33.

had a perfectly good afternoon. I didn't agree with it. He had a

:30:33.:30:38.

perfectly good argument about putting more resources into

:30:38.:30:43.

rehabilitation, et cetera. There's a �130 billion hole in his funding.

:30:43.:30:47.

This was obviously thought through. This is a case where he just seemed

:30:47.:30:51.

to be frightened of the tabloids. Frightened of the reaction. It

:30:51.:30:56.

wasn't a case where he thought this is a genuine mistake. He'd... This

:30:56.:31:01.

is the problem here, with that and the NHS. You cannot convince me

:31:01.:31:05.

that the Prime Minister wasn't absolutely clear and supportive of

:31:05.:31:09.

his Secretary of State going down that road. Now he's just pulled the

:31:09.:31:13.

rug from under them. The problem is these U-turns don't solve the

:31:13.:31:17.

problem. Having done a U-turn on the NHS, it has not solved the

:31:17.:31:24.

problem. There's a �20 billion hole. In this case there's a �120 billion

:31:24.:31:29.

black hole. These looming public sector strikes - do you agree with

:31:29.:31:34.

Ed Balls that they are walking into a Government-laid trap? I think

:31:34.:31:38.

they might be premature. My understanding is the negotiations,

:31:38.:31:42.

they are putting a lot of effort into those negoshtkwraigss. No-one

:31:42.:31:47.

from Will Hutton -- negotiations, no-one from Hutton to others are

:31:47.:31:53.

not saying it is not serious. You have to be careful about the timing

:31:53.:32:02.

of these disputes. They are well led by Brendan Barber. You are an

:32:02.:32:05.

old union leader. Should Labour show more solidarity with the

:32:05.:32:09.

unions in this? It is difficult, particularly when there is strike

:32:09.:32:13.

action and people's services are being affected. I'm with the unions

:32:13.:32:17.

on this. There is a good argument that we've done enough in terms of

:32:17.:32:22.

pensions to reduce it as a proportion of GDP. Need to do more.

:32:22.:32:26.

A 3% increase in contributions, which is a 50% in real terms,

:32:26.:32:31.

increase in country buegs, means people will leave pension

:32:31.:32:35.

schemes.Ly be the welfare bill which will have to step in.

:32:35.:32:40.

Eventually the taxpayer will have to step in. Should Mr E Miliband be

:32:40.:32:44.

allowed to appoint his own Shadow Cabinet? Absolutely. Are you with

:32:44.:32:49.

him on that? Should have done it 15 years ago. You are not that happy!

:32:49.:32:53.

Happy now. You know what people say? This week is the new

:32:53.:32:57.

rock'n'roll. It wasn't always the case, you know. Michael and I have

:32:57.:33:04.

paid our dues. For years we toured the nation in a battered touring

:33:04.:33:10.

band, playing clubs to a handful of fans. It is a desire to make a

:33:10.:33:17.

difference in our lives. Without a tail drooping anywhere in sight,

:33:17.:33:23.

how times have changed! We used to do it just for kicks. Since the BBC

:33:23.:33:29.

signed us ut, it's got so corporate, man. We decided to recreate some

:33:29.:33:39.
:33:39.:33:44.

magic and put political music in As the mainstream hits the main

:33:44.:33:50.

stage at Glastonbury, has modern music lost its political edge?

:33:50.:33:55.

And the good old days the Sex Pistols, the Clash and Jam used

:33:55.:34:00.

music as a tool for anti- establishment protest. At fst

:34:00.:34:06.

values, they were a place -- at festivals, they were a place to

:34:06.:34:14.

break free. As for fertility rights, naked dancing and the drug-taking.

:34:14.:34:20.

As Michael Evis calls for the festival to re-claim its radical

:34:20.:34:24.

roots, is the time changing or is the future of political music just

:34:24.:34:32.

stuck in the mud? Well, am I glad I'm not there. Mr

:34:32.:34:39.

Lee, thank you for joining us. This chap Michael Evis, who is Mr

:34:39.:34:43.

Glastonbury in a way. He said this Glastonbury will be more political

:34:43.:34:50.

- there's not much evidence, is there? The thing about Glastonbury,

:34:50.:34:54.

it is such a Masai event, kit be all things to all people -- it can

:34:54.:34:58.

be all things to all people. Everything to the right of the main

:34:58.:35:05.

stage, there's young head onist dancing to fast music. To the left

:35:05.:35:08.

there's fringe theatre and political debates, like the House

:35:08.:35:11.

of Commons. I think you can make of it what you will. It is difficult

:35:11.:35:16.

for it to be politicised in the way that festivals were in the 1970s

:35:16.:35:20.

and 1980s. The kind of people who made them political do not exist

:35:20.:35:25.

any more. They were put together and staff and patronised by hippies

:35:25.:35:29.

and the peace convoy types who have been legislated out of existence.

:35:29.:35:35.

Now when you look at that news footage of people wandering into

:35:35.:35:40.

Glastonbury, they are Hunter, designer wellies. The amazing thing,

:35:40.:35:44.

it has gone full circle. There'll be a protest, as I understand it,

:35:44.:35:49.

this year. It will be a protest against Bono and U2 for not paying

:35:49.:35:55.

enough taxes in Ireland T protest will come from the fans, not the

:35:55.:36:01.

bands. That is absolutely brilian. One of the great things is --

:36:01.:36:06.

brilliant. One of the great things is unexpected things do happen.

:36:06.:36:14.

Also, U2 are really good at working out what will be attention-grabbing.

:36:14.:36:18.

Using Bono as a focus for tax evasion, given how many people do

:36:18.:36:25.

it and given how corporations do it, is a hilarious thing to do. You are

:36:25.:36:30.

an old rocker. I was a mod, not a rocker!

:36:30.:36:35.

You're a rocker. Has music become less political? I don't think so.

:36:35.:36:43.

There's a band called Everything, Everything; an album called Come

:36:43.:36:47.

alive Diana. Our Diana? It's social observation. The worst political

:36:47.:36:52.

songs are the ones that are, are the ones with politics written on

:36:52.:36:59.

them, like the protest songs from the 60s. Elvis Costello's Ship

:36:59.:37:07.

Building is where it is more subtle. I wonder whether the political

:37:07.:37:13.

music owes its again sis to more austere times, divided times like

:37:13.:37:21.

the 60s and the 707s? I think it does. It -- 70s. I think it does.

:37:21.:37:26.

There are the opportunities for the cross-platforms. The Clash, their

:37:27.:37:31.

thing was they wouldn't go on Top of the Pops T70 things was about

:37:31.:37:36.

not selling out. Now bands think, how do we get on Top of the Pops,

:37:36.:37:45.

how do we get stuff on a -- an advert? You are a major expert on

:37:45.:37:52.

this - what is your view? We have at least ten seconds! My view is it

:37:52.:37:56.

is puzzling that youth is so unpolitical at the moment. When you

:37:56.:38:01.

think about all the provocations. You were mentioning more

:38:01.:38:05.

ideologically divided times. There have been rarely more times than

:38:05.:38:10.

now as in the United States. We fought wars in Iraq, Afghanistan,

:38:10.:38:14.

Libya. Yet nothing has happened N the 60s, the music and the feeling

:38:14.:38:19.

of young people went hand in hand. In the United States in the 1960s,

:38:19.:38:22.

students actually died in demonstrations. They were gunned

:38:22.:38:30.

down. There was a big thing happening. There is no sign of life

:38:30.:38:34.

in youth, politically speaking at all. When you talk about political

:38:34.:38:40.

music, it's a one-party state. It's left-wing, political protest. Music

:38:40.:38:44.

today is really corporate - it's business. They don't kind of go too

:38:44.:38:48.

well together? It is still interesting. Political music used

:38:48.:38:53.

to be of the left. It is strange now that because we have youthful

:38:53.:38:58.

politicianen the right, they try to claim it and yet a lot of the bands

:38:58.:39:02.

that David Cameron says he loves are forced to issue an official

:39:02.:39:05.

statement saying they hope he stops listening to them. When David

:39:05.:39:11.

Cameron tried to get photographed outside a Salford's lad's club,

:39:11.:39:15.

Hazel Blears put the lain into action to make sure there was no

:39:15.:39:18.

way he could stand outside it without there being a placard. It

:39:18.:39:24.

is a weird thing. Shall we be honest - the sad truth is

:39:24.:39:31.

Glastonbury is part of the summer season. It supthere with Ascot,

:39:31.:39:36.

Wimbledon.... If people object to it, what is difference to ten years

:39:36.:39:41.

ago is there are a vast majority of festivals. All over the countries,

:39:41.:39:47.

there are different ones. Unlike Ascot they don't fight each other

:39:47.:39:55.

with champagne bottles! Where does Wagner fit into this?

:39:55.:40:01.

You are not referring to the one who died in the 180s? Not the one

:40:01.:40:09.

that -- 1870s? Not that one. If you want to hear about political music

:40:09.:40:14.

I will tell you about him. We have run out of time. We have a quiz.

:40:14.:40:20.

You know we are all tennis-mad on This Week, we know the names of two

:40:20.:40:27.

or three of the top players. That is that guy Borg somebody and

:40:27.:40:33.

McEnroe, and Connors - we know them all. We think of not spending two

:40:33.:40:38.

whole weeks every year for indulging our passion for all

:40:38.:40:43.

things Wimbledon. How better than to get things flowing than a tennis

:40:43.:40:47.

political quiz, with world number one Austin. Oh, yes, Tracey, first

:40:47.:40:51.

question? When David Cameron challenged

:40:51.:40:55.

British number one, Andy Murray to a tennis match, where did they

:40:55.:41:01.

play? A, at Wimbledon? B, Queen's Club. C, Downing Street state

:41:01.:41:05.

dining room? Answer?

:41:05.:41:11.

Queen's Club. Let's get the right answer. The answer is, C, in the

:41:11.:41:16.

Downing Street state dining, room, complete with chandelier. See how

:41:16.:41:24.

useless they are. Another question. A City bankers paid �160,000 to

:41:24.:41:30.

play tennis at Chequers with which politician? A, Winston Churchill. B

:41:30.:41:33.

Margaret Thatcher or C Tony Blair? Tony Blair.

:41:33.:41:38.

I think they have got this one. Give us the answer. The answer is,

:41:38.:41:42.

of course, Tony Blair, at a charity auction in 2004. That was easy.

:41:42.:41:48.

Let's see if we have the third question. When David Cameron played

:41:49.:41:53.

Nick Clegg at tennis, David Cameron won. What did Cameron claim was the

:41:53.:42:01.

reason for his victory? A, he was more wielly? B, a better cheat than

:42:01.:42:07.

Nick Clegg? C, his racket was much bigger than Nick Clegg's?

:42:07.:42:17.

Come on? A, wielly. The answer is? The answer is, A, he was more wiley

:42:17.:42:21.

than Nick Clegg, as Nic is finding out to his cost in Government.

:42:21.:42:24.

There you go. Better than usual. Thank you for

:42:24.:42:31.

being with us. Thanks for having us. That's your lot for tonight. With

:42:31.:42:38.

Glastonbury upon us, sit back and watch as the funkiest diva struts

:42:38.:42:42.

her stuff. The biggest soul sister on planet Parliament didn't

:42:42.:42:46.

disappoint. No, I am not talking about Beyonce. I don't know what

:42:46.:42:53.

she is! I'm talking about Betty Boothroyd, when she took centre

:42:53.:42:57.

stage to tear a strip. You could hear the Deputy Prime Minister

:42:57.:43:01.

weeping all the way from his Downing Street broom cupboard.

:43:01.:43:06.

Night, night, night, don't let the former Speaker of the House bite.

:43:06.:43:11.

Our fatal flaw is we are not directly accountable to the British

:43:11.:43:16.

people. That's absolutely true. Nor is the monarchy. Nor is the

:43:16.:43:20.

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