30/06/2011 This Week

Tonight, we're building up to the big heavy weight title fight. Who

will come out on top? The unions take on the Government

over pensions. In the red corner - author and

agitater Michael Rosen. Government and the public sector

are squaring up for a fight and this is just round one. Brawling in

the streets of at thens, but is there a winner?

Adam Boulton shows us some moves. The Chinese General once said

"strategy without politics is the As both David Haye and Andy Murray

get ready for the showdowns, what makes a real winner? Talent or

self-believe? Jazzie B will be dancing like a butterfly.

Appearing on this Week does wonders for my self-esteem.

Ding-ding. Round one! Welcome to This Week. For those who

can just about remember why we went to war in North Africa, a critical

milestone has been reached. Arrest warrants from the International

Criminal Courts and a threat to deploy Prince Harry's chopper in

the nightclubs of Benghazi, last Monday marked the 100th day of

NATO's military campaign to prevent Colonel Gaddafi attending the 2012

Olympics. Although unseating the dictator has proved shifter than

shifting tickets to handball events, let's not forget what we have

achieved so far. Without the no-fly zone there's the chance we would

have to see Colonel Gaddafi pitch his Bedouin tent on Centre Court

this week. Boy George Osborne, Merv the

Governor King. It's not as though Europe is facing a crisis the size

of Lembit Opik's asteroid. When Andy Murray is in sight of a

Wimbledon final - C'mon Tim!. Oh, that's the other guy! Speaking of

those who can take a day off work without anybody noticing in the

slightest I am joined by two sickie-throwers, the Wayne and

Waynetta Slob of late night political chat. I speak of Michael

Portillo and stie Stewart, yet another flash -- Gisela Stewart,

yet another fashion clash. One has got a purple top and black bottom.

Christine Lagard was appointed the head of the IMF. A decision I think

will be disastrous for the world. Her first comment on being elected

was about Greece. It was the comment made by someone who is a

founding mother of this euro currency mess we are in. As far as

the IMF is concerned, saving the euro or saving Greek membership is

not the priority. The IMF's priority so to do the best deal to

make sure we don't get global meltdown. If that means the Greek

and the Irish leaving, so be it. I think she is the wrong choice. I am

very sorry that George Osborne welcomed her to the job. I am

fascinated by that moment. The consensus is she will be great.

That is well done. You have given us food for thought. Good! Do you

know what she used to be? What she used to be! She used to be a

synchronised swimmer. I am glad it was not a quiz question. We have

that coming up. Your moment, Gisela? The continued failure by

the Prime Minister to keep Mrs Bowen better. This is the wife of

the Conservative backbencher. showed Cameron's ability to really

respond to humour and to be fair him together with Natasha chair the

backbench committee which had its first year. I was sceptical to

begin with. They have made an extraordinary success of that

committee. I am prepared to give him a lot of credit. He brought

humour to the House. Also allowed the backbenchers, as part of his

work, to be much more forceful than they have been hither to. The House

of Commons operates with catch faces in the -- catchphrases in the

House of Commons. David Aimish used to say "the people in bas dil son."

And every time he said "Basildon" people used to cheer. Do not adjust

your set. That is the colour they are wearing! Nothing wrong with

that. Now, imagine a workplace riddled

with sexual frustration, raging hormones. Stop laughing. Where

people draw Willies in tip pex. It's not the This Cap week office.

Michael was in tears when he saw what Gisela had done to his justice

Bieber pencil case. He does have one! I am talking about schools. I

am working in conditions for immense rebellions. Teachers went

on strike, closing thousands of schools across England and Wales.

Former laurri yet and occasional teacher, Michael Rosen, he went on

the picket line. My parents were both teachers, so I

grew up with an enormous amount of respect and admiration for the

profession. I go into schools and colleges all the time, including

this one, so I see how difficult it is, the job that teachers do and

how valuable that is. Teachers develop young people. They

give them the skills they will need if they are going to go to work and

that we need for the economy. They help create tolerance, socially-

minded people, again that will lead in a future society. That is what

we owe to teachers. This Government's attack on

teachers' pensions is part of a broader, full-frontal assault on

the public sector. This Government thinks that private equals good,

They think if they can portray the teachers as greedy with their gold

plated pensions, they can drive a wedge between the public sector

workers and the rest of the public. But the private sector can't

replace the public sector. Chart ty, no good for delivering a universal

free education service. What they deliver is something piecemeal,

which ends up excluding people. We need a secure, well-paid public

sector. I don't know if these strikes will work. I certainly hope

so. I hope that everyone will support the public sector unions

and what they're doing today. It would be great if the Labour Party

leadership would support these strieblgs. I am not holding --

strike. I am not holding my breath on that one. It is time we valued

the public sector and stood up to the Government when they attack it.

Michael Rosen, straight from that picket line in north-east London

now joins us in our own revolting Westminster studio. Good evening.

Are you saying that there is no problem whatsoever with public

sector pensions? I think really it is actually Lord Hutton who

suggested there wasn't much problem with it. He would like to import,

he suggested it was a good idea importing a certain amount of

private pensions into the matter. It was his words who said it was

affordable. Its is his graph that caused the problem. He said they

were unfair? He said that it is affordable. If they are affordable

they are affordable. I will come on, the Government may have taken a

wrong turn on this issue of affordable because of that very

graph. I have interviewed Government ministers this week and

cannot get an answer out of them on that at all. Maybe they didn't read

it. You are not saying politicians sign things that they have not read,

other than their expenses! On the fairness issue, is it fair to ask

the general taxpayer to subsidise, through their taxes, more generous

pensions in the public sector than they on average enjoy themselves

a way it's the wrong way to frame it, isn't it? What is the general

taxpayer doing? They subsidise the rich and super rich with their

subsidies for their own pensions. Yes, if you take someone like Mr

Fred Goodwin, with his �700,000 pension a year, as he saupbltered

away he was getting tax relief on that. The general public don't like

that either. The average public pension is higher than the average

private sector pension. Outside of local Government they are not self-

financing. The general taxpayer is paying for these pensions. That's

an argument for the private sector workers to have fought harder to

defend their pensions. This is one of the richest countries in the

world. The issue is the distribution of money, it's the

distribution of money, not whether one group is subsidising another

group of workers. We have tax avoidance. There is massive wealth

in this country. That is where we should be looking. Mr Brown took

�100 million out of private sector pensions, that is why they are

worse than public sector pensions. It is not something I would have

supported. I am not here to defend the Labour Party, as you may have

noticed. Let's see if Michael will defend the Conservatives. The

Government did have that change tack, the unaffordable claim, we

all produce this graph from the Hutton Report showing as a

percentage of GDP, the cost of public sector pensions declined

over time. It peaked last year at just under 2%. They are saying it

is untenable, rather than unaffordable. It was a mistake to

say unaffordable? It was the wrong line. I think the line, any way,

that resonates more, is that it is unfair. We've seen today members of

the public interviewed. They have said I have gone through it with my

private sector pension, I don't see why public sector pensions should

be so generous. The National Audit Office. That is why the graph is

going down. They approved it. have been changes, perfectly true.

They have taken a hit. In terms of the comparison, there is still a

big gap. One is the gap in the extension of provision. The second

is the extent of the coverage. gap is widening. If you have taken

the big hit, you are in the private sector. That is not an argument

that the public sector ought to as well. This is the so-called race to

a bottom. You have the idea that we are a rich country and if our

public spending goes on we will get richer. We are not as rich as we

used to be. If the.... Sixth richest in the world. We were

fourth. That is my point. We are going down the scale. If we keep

increasing public sending or not dealing the problems we will go

down the scale further. If it is re-phrased as "unfair" rather than

"unaffordable," does that make it a more compelling argument. It is a

more compelling argument that we need change. You cannot deny the

fact that we all need to work longer. We need to move to averages

in terms of pensions rather than:.: So you say, in a school that what

we want is 66 year olds, 67 year olds, 68 year olds. I with us in a

school yesterday. I did two-and-a- half hours in a school. I was

shattered. I am 65. If you say teachers could be 66 and 67. I have

young children. I don't want them taught by shattered teachers.

Someone has to generate the wealth to fund our pensions. We have to

look at how to make it a fairer system. I don't think it is fair.

It is not right to, have as your starting point to have a strike and

a walkout. I don't think that was This Michael first, has David

Cameron got the stomach to fight the unions? I think he has and

particularly they have begun so badly. They began with a strike at

the wrong time. They have only probably got a fifth of the civil

servants out on strike today or maybe fewer. So it's begun badly.

It is quite an interesting tragedy. Both sides have made drastic

mistakes. The Government has made the wrong argument. The Chief

Secretary of the Treasury provoked the unions and now the unions have

gone off half-cock. I interviewed the Prime Minister - and although

he talks about negotiations going on, they aren't prepared to do this.

Are the unions up for a strike? not that near to the unions to know.

You were on the picket line, though? On the ground, people are

very angry. This is an unfair society that coming out of this

crisis, the economic crisis, the rich are in fact doing very well.

They are recouping their losses. They are being asked to - they are

asked to make the sacrifices where the super-rich are doing very well.

There is a question of how you respond to that anger and you put

it right. The unions are probably walking into a trap here by evoking

all kinds of images of the '80s, the battle... Neither of you

support the unions. Hold on. are not exactly doing it from a

point of view of supporting them. Ed Miliband has not been vocal...

No, no, we can go back to the miners' strike. The Labour Party

leadership didn't support the miners. It's a completely different

argument. Depends which aspect of the world... Michael... A massive

amount of wealth is made in this country and poverty, nothing has

changed. We are in the process of putting legislation through where

we take child benefit away from anyone who earns over �40,000.

Quite frankly, to call out teachers and lose a day at school and stop

people, single parents going to work because we are angry was not

the right... It was too early. is their livelihoods over the whole

of their lifetimes. All right. You have both made your cases very

clearly for our viewers to decide. Viewers in a sense - public opinion

has a big impact on strikes. Where do you think public opinion is now?

I am assuming this will not be resolved by the autumn and it will

kick-off again in a bigger fashion. Where will it be in the autumn?

depends to what extent the union leaders decide to say where we

stand. These people at the other end of society are making millions

of money and they are not greedy. They are supposed to have the

incentives. People need incentives to go into a classroom and teach.

They need to know that their life is secure and that when they work

at the end of 40 years work they will get a decent pension.

Otherwise we will lose them. We will have worst teachers. Thank you

very much. Now, a great spiritual leader once

observed, "You yourself - as much as anybody in the entire universe -

deserve your love and affection." Although it sounds like something

Michael said during his power- hungry personality cult phase, it

is in fact one of the sayings of the Buddha! So, in the spirit of

Zen, for which we are known, stick around because British soul master

Jazzie B will be joining us to talk about the power of self-esteem and

the dangers of self-love. And after former BBC Chairman Michael Grade

claimed making a complaint to the BBC was a "grisly and 'hopeless"

business we'd like to point him in the direction of our own puddle of

filth, otherwise known as the Viewers' Comments section on our

interweb page. Or - just like the Pope - you can sign up and follow

us in the twittersphere. "A disgrace", "unhelpful and ill-

informed", "he should be ashamed of himself." No, not another selection

of your comments - that's how the head of one teaching union, Mary

Bousted, described Ed Miliband today. And she's not the only one

getting shirty this week. On his visit to the UK the Chinese

President ticked off Sky's Adam Boulton for daring to ask a

question about human rights! So we asked the man himself for his

round-up of the week at Westminster - Adam Boulton that is, not Wen

Hello, I'm in training. I may be one of two journalists permitted to

question the Chinese Prime Minister this week, but it would seem I have

still got a lot to learn. Do you accept as is often argued here if

China is the continue its impressive economic progress it

will have to make progress on both human rights and democracy?

TRANSLATION: Your question struck me that you may have not made very

I was only trying to be polite. Perhaps 5,000 years of Chinese

culture have got something to teach us. After all, it was the Chinese

military scholar who said "strategy without tactics are the slow route

to victory, tactics without strategy are the noise of defeat".

Come to think of it, that sounds like Westminster in a typical week!

At least I gave David Cameron something to chuckle about in a

difficult week. The Tories like to consider themselves party of Queen,

country and the forces. This week, military top brass were demoted

from the top table while the real fighting was on the streets.

those considering strike action at a time when discussions are ongoing,

I would say to you these strikes are wrong for you, for the people

you serve, for the good of the country. Men's natures are alike,

it is their habits that cast them far apart. Take public sector

strikes, easy for Conservatives to condemn, Liberal Democrats to lie

low, but tricky for union-backed Labour. I don't think political

leaders in opposition or in Government should applaud strikes

or condemn strikes. He who is ignorant both of himself and his

enemy is truly in peril so the Labour Leader took a different line.

I do think the strikes are a mistake. They shouldn't be going

ahead because they will inconvenience parents and children.

Public sector pensions do need to be reformed. The Government has got

to take its share of responsibility because they have gone about these

negotiations in quite a provocative way. My message to both sides is

get round the negotiating table. Miliband switched to another

subject - NHS reform. The whole country will have heard that he has

admitted they are spending �852 million on making people redundant

and he can't promise they want be rehired to do their old jobs.

who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words

good. David Cameron struck back on strikes. What the whole country

will have noticed is that a time when people are worried about

strikes, he can't ask about strikes because he's in the pocket of the

unions. The master also said he who will not economise must agonise.

Greece voted through its austerity package. Saving the euro was

priority number one for the new IMF chief. Yet another French person.

David Cameron stuck the to his guns, no more British cash for Greece and

certainly not for the EU budget. Mrs Bone wanted to know whether if

a bail-out came before 2013, despite qualifying majority voting,

Britain would vote no in any case. I know that she would be very happy

if the Prime Minister give that undertaking and it would be helpful

for the Bone household if he could. I do feel now that a very big part

of my life is trying to give pleasure to Mrs Bone! LAUGHTER

feel on this occasion I can only go so far. There was bad news on the

home front for the party of law- and-order. Burglaries and robberies

are up in the recession according to latest statistics. Old master

Ken Clarke reached for his art of war who said, "He who is pruden and

waits for an enemy who is not will be victorious" - or to put it

another way, bash a burglar. can hit the borrowing lar with the

poker if he is in the house and you -- burglar with the poker if he is

in the house and you will have a reasonable defence if you do so.

For me, annoying the Prime Minister of China, seems easier than getting

a visa to visit the middle kingdom. Then forget injuries but always

Thank you. You wouldn't want to hit him with a poker. Greece, we saw it

unfold in Parliament and on the streets. What did you make of it

all? As I said last week, we are heading for disaster, I fear. This

is a huge threat to the British economy, a huge threat to the world

economy. There is no medium or long-term plan. There simply is

another buy-out for a brief period of time. What the Greeks are being

asked to do is unaffordable. I can't see how they can survive.

This will lead to some meltdown. What we have done, not we, but what

the European Union has done this week is simply buy time? It hasn't

in any way resolved what's happened? It is worse than that.

Worse? It's thrown good money after bad and it's in a state of complete

denial and the responsible thing would be for the Commission to sit

down and draw up plans for a legal framework which would allow a

country, whether it is Greece or otherwise, to leave the euro so you

can resolve it. The Maastricht Treaty never made any provision for

a country to leave the eurozone? was seen as the project, it will

only advance if nobody is allowed to leave the European Union or the

eurozone. We have a political aspiration that is deaf and blind

to reality. Who will pay the price? The poor people on the streets will

find their savings are worth nothing. What I would say is (a)

I'm staggered that both the House of Commons and the government is

not much firmer to demand that we draw up plans. I'm staggered that

the Prime Minister did not respond when I raised with him Article

Provisions which would allow the European Union to impose currency

restrictions in the case of an emergency. I just find it

unbelievable that across Europe everybody keeps pretending that if

only they cut their taxes and public spending, it will be all

right. It won't. You are German in origin. It is said that the average

German is now up to here with the thought of a further bail-out to

Greece or Portugal or Ireland or Spain. Is that right? What do you

think of the modern euro country? Not only are they up to here with

that notion, but also in the past, Germany used to be able to purchase

agreement. They aren't sufficiently successful that they could afford

to do this. There is a lack of political will. As I look at it, I

have been following this closely, everybody knows that this extra

money isn't going to help the situation because there's a senior

banker, he said to me today that Greece is insolvent. Yes. Yet, the

price Greece is being asked to pay will never be carried out. As I

understand it, a board of non- Greeks has been created to sell off

50 billion euros worth of Greek assets. Greece's airports and

buildings. That is not going to work? When I was arguing 15 years

ago with Ken Clarke that there were issues of sovereignty, he laughed.

It is clear there are issues of sovereignty. It is a battle state.

The money which we are pumping is going in to save the euro. Greece

is indeed insolvent. The European leaders want to save the euro

project at all cost. The British Government is concerned only to

make the childish point that we are not going to pay anything for the

bail-out. The serious point is that this thing is a phenomenal threat

It would mean David Cameron should consider taking a position, perhaps

the IMF and American health as well to try and -- help as well, to try

and knock heads together. I would not bother with the IMF now. It is

led by Christine Lagarde. I forgot about the new line of the IMF, you

only told me a few moments ago. IMF going into Greece, what its

traditional package is countries in trouble, you increase taxes, cut

public sending -- spending and devalue currency. The IMF in terms

of its normal roles, knows that this package will not work because

the third element is not there for Greece. We will keep an eye on this

as the weeks go by. It is a long way to go yet. It's staggering the

House of Commons is not discussing this. The leader of the House of

Commons says debate on Europe are backbench business. It didn't come

up at Prime Minister's Questions. Speaking of PMQs, the Ed Miliband

tactic now, which he did for a third week in a row of picking a

specific detail. He thinks the Prime Minister is weak on detail,

so he goes for a detail hoping to catch the Prime Minister out.

Actually, sometimes he does. Sometimes it is clear the Prime

Minister is not across these details. I suggest to you though

that there may be diminishing returns to this, that most think

the Prime Minister cannot be expected to know everything and

there's a kind of Oxford debating union trick about this, which

people won't like. The week before last, it was a detail on a point

that was highly political. It was a political issue and Cameron, who

usually does not look at his notes started to flick through them and

showed a weakness. It only works as a detail in relation to something

big. This week it did not work. The world around us is in a state of

collapse. There are strikes, the economic crisis. He was going on

about the NHS. It seemed irrelevant. As a Government you don't want to

get a reputation of ministers not knowing the details. And over this

pension thing, ministers have looked like they don't know the

basic argument. Mr Maude on the Today Programme.... Painful... I

think we should pass over it. loved it. It was great! I would

like to re-play it a couple of times! You can do that on the BBC

iPlayer. The Speaker gave the Prime Minister a bit of stick today. In

fact he gave it to him yesterday, gave it twice to him, but what does

the Commons think of the Speaker Bercow now? In general? To be

absolutely honest, I think in terms of statement, if you are there, you

know you're going to get called, it's much more predictable. He has

done what he said he would set out to do and make sure the

backbenchers get more of a voice. I think the new intake... He's had

more support than not? When push comes down to shove he comes down

on the side of the backbenchers. Questions about Ken Clarke, fellow

Cambridge graduate as well. Is it wise for politicians to say, it's

all right for a burglar to whack -- it's all right to whack a burglar

with a poker. Also, who, here's the big political question of the week,

who has a poker in 2011? That's a very good point. Who has Hush

Puppies in 2011. They go together. I had my head many my hands.

Firstly, the point you made, it's not for Government ministers to say

hitting someone with a poker who has come through your front door is

the correct thing to do. It must be so far from what Ken Clarke

believes and thinks. He must think it is a piece of nonsense. Poor Ken,

he is standing on his head twice a week, it's not a comfortable

position. I go to bed with a poker in one hand, hush huppis on the end

of the bed. -- hush puppies on the end of the

bed. If you like what you see in the political mirror, there are few

better places to pollish it than in the This Week sofa, or as Diane

Abbott thinks, the political Siberia, otherwise known as the

shadow public health team. It made us think about the importance of

assessing one's talents and thoughts. After we picked ourselves

up from our fit of despair, we decided to put self-esteem in this

I'm the real champion. There'll never be one like me. I will prove

I'm the greatest. I'm going to eat raw meat. I'm going to get ready.

You could never accuse heavy weight boxers of lacking in self-esteem.

As David Haye prepares for the biggest fight of his life, he knows

that humility is rarely regarded in -- rewarded in the ring. I cannot

wait to get in there and do what I've got to do. Andy Murray claims

the harder he works, the luckier he gets and believes he has what it

takes to reach a Wimbledon final. Just to understand... Jamie Oliver

asked a group of failing students to be taken on. Too little, or

centre stage. For me, the discipline, it was easy. Just how

important is a healthy assessment of your own abilities and talents?

Can it spur you on to success, and help fulfil your dreams, or blind

you to your faults and fill an overinflated ego?

Sorry about that so late at night - it has probably frightened you.

Come out from behind the sofa. It is all right. We won't bite. Jazzie

B, welcome. When you started out, were you aware of the talents you

thought you had and the faults you thought you had? I think when I

started out I was very fortunate because of my parents instilled so

much in regards to my confidence, et cetera, et cetera. Then I had a

fantastic time at school. I had some great teachers, who also

encouraged that. So, some might say I might be slightly overconfident

in certain areas, where that could be a help as well as a hinder repbs.

You probably need that in your business. The background of parents

and teachers gave you a healthy sense of self-esteem. I would like

to believe so. Not an overblown one? Come from a large family, you

get put in your place, you know often enough. That also helps.

have to eat quickly. You have to eat quickly. Who wears the right

sized shoes, et cetera, et cetera. All those things helped in regards

to my personal confidence. There are often, I have met a lot of

people from various walks, who seem to be over confident and sometimes

that may be over-compensating for their insecurities. When you dealt

with kids in Jamie Oliver's dream school, you were a teacher along

with others, Alister Campbell. David Starky. They have all been on

this programme, which is why they have self-esteem. Tell me, these

kids, because there were some difficult ones, did they suffer

from a lack or in some cases too much self-esteem that wasn't

justified? Some of them, the majority of them who, which I think

most people who saw the programme would know, those who, yes, had too

much and maybe believed that the world owed them something, and for

my measure I believe a lot of that is because of the lack of self-

esteem. So, often enough the bravado they come up and I'm this

and I'm that, and maybe attacking you before you've actually finished

the sentence, shows a level of insecurity. Yes. I see in a sense

it's the lack of self-esteem that makes them give the impression they

are full of self-esteem. Absolutely. That can be a very, very dangerous

combination. How would you describe your self-esteem, Michael? I would

describe it as Jazzie B did. It was my parents, it was my school that

gave me that confidence. I remember a time when I didn't have so much

confidence. I was in a house surrounded by books, but for

instance I didn't know at one time I would go to university. I didn't

know I would go to Cambridge. I have been surprised at every move

along the way. I observed that a big difference between people who

succeed and people who don't is not necessarily a gap between the gap

between the successful and the lack of talent of the unsuccessful. The

striking thing is self-esteem of the security and the lack of self-

esteem of the less successful. That is a big factor. People who do well,

a lot of them go around pinching themselves every day. When I was in

Cabinet I used to pinch myself. Am I really....? Is this really many?

Is that me? You think, "What am I doing here?" Would you like to

complete this hat trick of people who have self-esteem? It does start

at home in the sense that you grow up and there's a safe environment

in that sense. The other thing is learning from mistakes, from

reallyence to recover. That is bgs realistic about yourself. I

benefited greatly, it is incredibly liberating. Half the rules you

break because you don't know they are there. The other half you break

and get away with it. It is changing your background sometimes

is also good. Do you think it is a problem for boys more than girls?

What I am worried about is boys between 11hf17.

It's a mix of the two. What is per pech waited in the media for girls.

It is dangerous. Having two children myself who are, one is a

right teenager as it were and one is moving on. It's interesting to

see that, plus come from a large family, I've a snapshot or even a

bird's eye view of the differences of the males and females. Going

through interesting times right now, as well as living with technology,

et cetera, et cetera. There's always that, a huge element of

doubt, and then a huge one of self- belief. It's trying to get that

right, that you know, the guys I think, I'll stick my neck out and

say, yeah, they probably suffer a lot more, as well as that idea of

who is the alpha male? Particularly with the schooling systems. Then,

we're looking at society now, where a lot of boys are failing in

various aspects of that as well. Interesting times. It is a problem

for both of them. What are you up to? I'm about to join Jamie Oliver

on the Big Festival tomorrow on Clapham common. I'm looking forward

to that. Soul to Soul has been back on tour. We have been touring since

March. Onwards and upwards. With a healthy self-east steam following

you. Jazzie B, thank you for coming in tonight. Staying up until this

unGodly hour! It's a perfect time for me. That's your lot for tonight.

We leave you with a thought. The Chinese Prime Minister visited the

UK this week, he confirmed the loan of two giant pandas to Edinburgh

Zoo. Yes, the so-called panda diplomacy. The practise of shipping