30/06/2011 This Week


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Tonight, we're building up to the big heavy weight title fight. Who


will come out on top? The unions take on the Government


over pensions. In the red corner - author and


agitater Michael Rosen. Government and the public sector


are squaring up for a fight and this is just round one. Brawling in


the streets of at thens, but is there a winner?


Adam Boulton shows us some moves. The Chinese General once said


"strategy without politics is the As both David Haye and Andy Murray


get ready for the showdowns, what makes a real winner? Talent or


self-believe? Jazzie B will be dancing like a butterfly.


Appearing on this Week does wonders for my self-esteem.


Ding-ding. Round one! Welcome to This Week. For those who


can just about remember why we went to war in North Africa, a critical


milestone has been reached. Arrest warrants from the International


Criminal Courts and a threat to deploy Prince Harry's chopper in


the nightclubs of Benghazi, last Monday marked the 100th day of


NATO's military campaign to prevent Colonel Gaddafi attending the 2012


Olympics. Although unseating the dictator has proved shifter than


shifting tickets to handball events, let's not forget what we have


achieved so far. Without the no-fly zone there's the chance we would


have to see Colonel Gaddafi pitch his Bedouin tent on Centre Court


this week. Boy George Osborne, Merv the


Governor King. It's not as though Europe is facing a crisis the size


of Lembit Opik's asteroid. When Andy Murray is in sight of a


Wimbledon final - C'mon Tim!. Oh, that's the other guy! Speaking of


those who can take a day off work without anybody noticing in the


slightest I am joined by two sickie-throwers, the Wayne and


Waynetta Slob of late night political chat. I speak of Michael


Portillo and stie Stewart, yet another flash -- Gisela Stewart,


yet another fashion clash. One has got a purple top and black bottom.


Christine Lagard was appointed the head of the IMF. A decision I think


will be disastrous for the world. Her first comment on being elected


was about Greece. It was the comment made by someone who is a


founding mother of this euro currency mess we are in. As far as


the IMF is concerned, saving the euro or saving Greek membership is


not the priority. The IMF's priority so to do the best deal to


make sure we don't get global meltdown. If that means the Greek


and the Irish leaving, so be it. I think she is the wrong choice. I am


very sorry that George Osborne welcomed her to the job. I am


fascinated by that moment. The consensus is she will be great.


That is well done. You have given us food for thought. Good! Do you


know what she used to be? What she used to be! She used to be a


synchronised swimmer. I am glad it was not a quiz question. We have


that coming up. Your moment, Gisela? The continued failure by


the Prime Minister to keep Mrs Bowen better. This is the wife of


the Conservative backbencher. showed Cameron's ability to really


respond to humour and to be fair him together with Natasha chair the


backbench committee which had its first year. I was sceptical to


begin with. They have made an extraordinary success of that


committee. I am prepared to give him a lot of credit. He brought


humour to the House. Also allowed the backbenchers, as part of his


work, to be much more forceful than they have been hither to. The House


of Commons operates with catch faces in the -- catchphrases in the


House of Commons. David Aimish used to say "the people in bas dil son."


And every time he said "Basildon" people used to cheer. Do not adjust


your set. That is the colour they are wearing! Nothing wrong with


that. Now, imagine a workplace riddled


with sexual frustration, raging hormones. Stop laughing. Where


people draw Willies in tip pex. It's not the This Cap week office.


Michael was in tears when he saw what Gisela had done to his justice


Bieber pencil case. He does have one! I am talking about schools. I


am working in conditions for immense rebellions. Teachers went


on strike, closing thousands of schools across England and Wales.


Former laurri yet and occasional teacher, Michael Rosen, he went on


the picket line. My parents were both teachers, so I


grew up with an enormous amount of respect and admiration for the


profession. I go into schools and colleges all the time, including


this one, so I see how difficult it is, the job that teachers do and


how valuable that is. Teachers develop young people. They


give them the skills they will need if they are going to go to work and


that we need for the economy. They help create tolerance, socially-


minded people, again that will lead in a future society. That is what


we owe to teachers. This Government's attack on


teachers' pensions is part of a broader, full-frontal assault on


the public sector. This Government thinks that private equals good,


They think if they can portray the teachers as greedy with their gold


plated pensions, they can drive a wedge between the public sector


workers and the rest of the public. But the private sector can't


replace the public sector. Chart ty, no good for delivering a universal


free education service. What they deliver is something piecemeal,


which ends up excluding people. We need a secure, well-paid public


sector. I don't know if these strikes will work. I certainly hope


so. I hope that everyone will support the public sector unions


and what they're doing today. It would be great if the Labour Party


leadership would support these strieblgs. I am not holding --


strike. I am not holding my breath on that one. It is time we valued


the public sector and stood up to the Government when they attack it.


Michael Rosen, straight from that picket line in north-east London


now joins us in our own revolting Westminster studio. Good evening.


Are you saying that there is no problem whatsoever with public


sector pensions? I think really it is actually Lord Hutton who


suggested there wasn't much problem with it. He would like to import,


he suggested it was a good idea importing a certain amount of


private pensions into the matter. It was his words who said it was


affordable. Its is his graph that caused the problem. He said they


were unfair? He said that it is affordable. If they are affordable


they are affordable. I will come on, the Government may have taken a


wrong turn on this issue of affordable because of that very


graph. I have interviewed Government ministers this week and


cannot get an answer out of them on that at all. Maybe they didn't read


it. You are not saying politicians sign things that they have not read,


other than their expenses! On the fairness issue, is it fair to ask


the general taxpayer to subsidise, through their taxes, more generous


pensions in the public sector than they on average enjoy themselves


a way it's the wrong way to frame it, isn't it? What is the general


taxpayer doing? They subsidise the rich and super rich with their


subsidies for their own pensions. Yes, if you take someone like Mr


Fred Goodwin, with his �700,000 pension a year, as he saupbltered


away he was getting tax relief on that. The general public don't like


that either. The average public pension is higher than the average


private sector pension. Outside of local Government they are not self-


financing. The general taxpayer is paying for these pensions. That's


an argument for the private sector workers to have fought harder to


defend their pensions. This is one of the richest countries in the


world. The issue is the distribution of money, it's the


distribution of money, not whether one group is subsidising another


group of workers. We have tax avoidance. There is massive wealth


in this country. That is where we should be looking. Mr Brown took


�100 million out of private sector pensions, that is why they are


worse than public sector pensions. It is not something I would have


supported. I am not here to defend the Labour Party, as you may have


noticed. Let's see if Michael will defend the Conservatives. The


Government did have that change tack, the unaffordable claim, we


all produce this graph from the Hutton Report showing as a


percentage of GDP, the cost of public sector pensions declined


over time. It peaked last year at just under 2%. They are saying it


is untenable, rather than unaffordable. It was a mistake to


say unaffordable? It was the wrong line. I think the line, any way,


that resonates more, is that it is unfair. We've seen today members of


the public interviewed. They have said I have gone through it with my


private sector pension, I don't see why public sector pensions should


be so generous. The National Audit Office. That is why the graph is


going down. They approved it. have been changes, perfectly true.


They have taken a hit. In terms of the comparison, there is still a


big gap. One is the gap in the extension of provision. The second


is the extent of the coverage. gap is widening. If you have taken


the big hit, you are in the private sector. That is not an argument


that the public sector ought to as well. This is the so-called race to


a bottom. You have the idea that we are a rich country and if our


public spending goes on we will get richer. We are not as rich as we


used to be. If the.... Sixth richest in the world. We were


fourth. That is my point. We are going down the scale. If we keep


increasing public sending or not dealing the problems we will go


down the scale further. If it is re-phrased as "unfair" rather than


"unaffordable," does that make it a more compelling argument. It is a


more compelling argument that we need change. You cannot deny the


fact that we all need to work longer. We need to move to averages


in terms of pensions rather than:.: So you say, in a school that what


we want is 66 year olds, 67 year olds, 68 year olds. I with us in a


school yesterday. I did two-and-a- half hours in a school. I was


shattered. I am 65. If you say teachers could be 66 and 67. I have


young children. I don't want them taught by shattered teachers.


Someone has to generate the wealth to fund our pensions. We have to


look at how to make it a fairer system. I don't think it is fair.


It is not right to, have as your starting point to have a strike and


a walkout. I don't think that was This Michael first, has David


Cameron got the stomach to fight the unions? I think he has and


particularly they have begun so badly. They began with a strike at


the wrong time. They have only probably got a fifth of the civil


servants out on strike today or maybe fewer. So it's begun badly.


It is quite an interesting tragedy. Both sides have made drastic


mistakes. The Government has made the wrong argument. The Chief


Secretary of the Treasury provoked the unions and now the unions have


gone off half-cock. I interviewed the Prime Minister - and although


he talks about negotiations going on, they aren't prepared to do this.


Are the unions up for a strike? not that near to the unions to know.


You were on the picket line, though? On the ground, people are


very angry. This is an unfair society that coming out of this


crisis, the economic crisis, the rich are in fact doing very well.


They are recouping their losses. They are being asked to - they are


asked to make the sacrifices where the super-rich are doing very well.


There is a question of how you respond to that anger and you put


it right. The unions are probably walking into a trap here by evoking


all kinds of images of the '80s, the battle... Neither of you


support the unions. Hold on. are not exactly doing it from a


point of view of supporting them. Ed Miliband has not been vocal...


No, no, we can go back to the miners' strike. The Labour Party


leadership didn't support the miners. It's a completely different


argument. Depends which aspect of the world... Michael... A massive


amount of wealth is made in this country and poverty, nothing has


changed. We are in the process of putting legislation through where


we take child benefit away from anyone who earns over �40,000.


Quite frankly, to call out teachers and lose a day at school and stop


people, single parents going to work because we are angry was not


the right... It was too early. is their livelihoods over the whole


of their lifetimes. All right. You have both made your cases very


clearly for our viewers to decide. Viewers in a sense - public opinion


has a big impact on strikes. Where do you think public opinion is now?


I am assuming this will not be resolved by the autumn and it will


kick-off again in a bigger fashion. Where will it be in the autumn?


depends to what extent the union leaders decide to say where we


stand. These people at the other end of society are making millions


of money and they are not greedy. They are supposed to have the


incentives. People need incentives to go into a classroom and teach.


They need to know that their life is secure and that when they work


at the end of 40 years work they will get a decent pension.


Otherwise we will lose them. We will have worst teachers. Thank you


very much. Now, a great spiritual leader once


observed, "You yourself - as much as anybody in the entire universe -


deserve your love and affection." Although it sounds like something


Michael said during his power- hungry personality cult phase, it


is in fact one of the sayings of the Buddha! So, in the spirit of


Zen, for which we are known, stick around because British soul master


Jazzie B will be joining us to talk about the power of self-esteem and


the dangers of self-love. And after former BBC Chairman Michael Grade


claimed making a complaint to the BBC was a "grisly and 'hopeless"


business we'd like to point him in the direction of our own puddle of


filth, otherwise known as the Viewers' Comments section on our


interweb page. Or - just like the Pope - you can sign up and follow


us in the twittersphere. "A disgrace", "unhelpful and ill-


informed", "he should be ashamed of himself." No, not another selection


of your comments - that's how the head of one teaching union, Mary


Bousted, described Ed Miliband today. And she's not the only one


getting shirty this week. On his visit to the UK the Chinese


President ticked off Sky's Adam Boulton for daring to ask a


question about human rights! So we asked the man himself for his


round-up of the week at Westminster - Adam Boulton that is, not Wen


Hello, I'm in training. I may be one of two journalists permitted to


question the Chinese Prime Minister this week, but it would seem I have


still got a lot to learn. Do you accept as is often argued here if


China is the continue its impressive economic progress it


will have to make progress on both human rights and democracy?


TRANSLATION: Your question struck me that you may have not made very


I was only trying to be polite. Perhaps 5,000 years of Chinese


culture have got something to teach us. After all, it was the Chinese


military scholar who said "strategy without tactics are the slow route


to victory, tactics without strategy are the noise of defeat".


Come to think of it, that sounds like Westminster in a typical week!


At least I gave David Cameron something to chuckle about in a


difficult week. The Tories like to consider themselves party of Queen,


country and the forces. This week, military top brass were demoted


from the top table while the real fighting was on the streets.


those considering strike action at a time when discussions are ongoing,


I would say to you these strikes are wrong for you, for the people


you serve, for the good of the country. Men's natures are alike,


it is their habits that cast them far apart. Take public sector


strikes, easy for Conservatives to condemn, Liberal Democrats to lie


low, but tricky for union-backed Labour. I don't think political


leaders in opposition or in Government should applaud strikes


or condemn strikes. He who is ignorant both of himself and his


enemy is truly in peril so the Labour Leader took a different line.


I do think the strikes are a mistake. They shouldn't be going


ahead because they will inconvenience parents and children.


Public sector pensions do need to be reformed. The Government has got


to take its share of responsibility because they have gone about these


negotiations in quite a provocative way. My message to both sides is


get round the negotiating table. Miliband switched to another


subject - NHS reform. The whole country will have heard that he has


admitted they are spending �852 million on making people redundant


and he can't promise they want be rehired to do their old jobs.


who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words


good. David Cameron struck back on strikes. What the whole country


will have noticed is that a time when people are worried about


strikes, he can't ask about strikes because he's in the pocket of the


unions. The master also said he who will not economise must agonise.


Greece voted through its austerity package. Saving the euro was


priority number one for the new IMF chief. Yet another French person.


David Cameron stuck the to his guns, no more British cash for Greece and


certainly not for the EU budget. Mrs Bone wanted to know whether if


a bail-out came before 2013, despite qualifying majority voting,


Britain would vote no in any case. I know that she would be very happy


if the Prime Minister give that undertaking and it would be helpful


for the Bone household if he could. I do feel now that a very big part


of my life is trying to give pleasure to Mrs Bone! LAUGHTER


feel on this occasion I can only go so far. There was bad news on the


home front for the party of law- and-order. Burglaries and robberies


are up in the recession according to latest statistics. Old master


Ken Clarke reached for his art of war who said, "He who is pruden and


waits for an enemy who is not will be victorious" - or to put it


another way, bash a burglar. can hit the borrowing lar with the


poker if he is in the house and you -- burglar with the poker if he is


in the house and you will have a reasonable defence if you do so.


For me, annoying the Prime Minister of China, seems easier than getting


a visa to visit the middle kingdom. Then forget injuries but always


Thank you. You wouldn't want to hit him with a poker. Greece, we saw it


unfold in Parliament and on the streets. What did you make of it


all? As I said last week, we are heading for disaster, I fear. This


is a huge threat to the British economy, a huge threat to the world


economy. There is no medium or long-term plan. There simply is


another buy-out for a brief period of time. What the Greeks are being


asked to do is unaffordable. I can't see how they can survive.


This will lead to some meltdown. What we have done, not we, but what


the European Union has done this week is simply buy time? It hasn't


in any way resolved what's happened? It is worse than that.


Worse? It's thrown good money after bad and it's in a state of complete


denial and the responsible thing would be for the Commission to sit


down and draw up plans for a legal framework which would allow a


country, whether it is Greece or otherwise, to leave the euro so you


can resolve it. The Maastricht Treaty never made any provision for


a country to leave the eurozone? was seen as the project, it will


only advance if nobody is allowed to leave the European Union or the


eurozone. We have a political aspiration that is deaf and blind


to reality. Who will pay the price? The poor people on the streets will


find their savings are worth nothing. What I would say is (a)


I'm staggered that both the House of Commons and the government is


not much firmer to demand that we draw up plans. I'm staggered that


the Prime Minister did not respond when I raised with him Article


Provisions which would allow the European Union to impose currency


restrictions in the case of an emergency. I just find it


unbelievable that across Europe everybody keeps pretending that if


only they cut their taxes and public spending, it will be all


right. It won't. You are German in origin. It is said that the average


German is now up to here with the thought of a further bail-out to


Greece or Portugal or Ireland or Spain. Is that right? What do you


think of the modern euro country? Not only are they up to here with


that notion, but also in the past, Germany used to be able to purchase


agreement. They aren't sufficiently successful that they could afford


to do this. There is a lack of political will. As I look at it, I


have been following this closely, everybody knows that this extra


money isn't going to help the situation because there's a senior


banker, he said to me today that Greece is insolvent. Yes. Yet, the


price Greece is being asked to pay will never be carried out. As I


understand it, a board of non- Greeks has been created to sell off


50 billion euros worth of Greek assets. Greece's airports and


buildings. That is not going to work? When I was arguing 15 years


ago with Ken Clarke that there were issues of sovereignty, he laughed.


It is clear there are issues of sovereignty. It is a battle state.


The money which we are pumping is going in to save the euro. Greece


is indeed insolvent. The European leaders want to save the euro


project at all cost. The British Government is concerned only to


make the childish point that we are not going to pay anything for the


bail-out. The serious point is that this thing is a phenomenal threat


It would mean David Cameron should consider taking a position, perhaps


the IMF and American health as well to try and -- help as well, to try


and knock heads together. I would not bother with the IMF now. It is


led by Christine Lagarde. I forgot about the new line of the IMF, you


only told me a few moments ago. IMF going into Greece, what its


traditional package is countries in trouble, you increase taxes, cut


public sending -- spending and devalue currency. The IMF in terms


of its normal roles, knows that this package will not work because


the third element is not there for Greece. We will keep an eye on this


as the weeks go by. It is a long way to go yet. It's staggering the


House of Commons is not discussing this. The leader of the House of


Commons says debate on Europe are backbench business. It didn't come


up at Prime Minister's Questions. Speaking of PMQs, the Ed Miliband


tactic now, which he did for a third week in a row of picking a


specific detail. He thinks the Prime Minister is weak on detail,


so he goes for a detail hoping to catch the Prime Minister out.


Actually, sometimes he does. Sometimes it is clear the Prime


Minister is not across these details. I suggest to you though


that there may be diminishing returns to this, that most think


the Prime Minister cannot be expected to know everything and


there's a kind of Oxford debating union trick about this, which


people won't like. The week before last, it was a detail on a point


that was highly political. It was a political issue and Cameron, who


usually does not look at his notes started to flick through them and


showed a weakness. It only works as a detail in relation to something


big. This week it did not work. The world around us is in a state of


collapse. There are strikes, the economic crisis. He was going on


about the NHS. It seemed irrelevant. As a Government you don't want to


get a reputation of ministers not knowing the details. And over this


pension thing, ministers have looked like they don't know the


basic argument. Mr Maude on the Today Programme.... Painful... I


think we should pass over it. loved it. It was great! I would


like to re-play it a couple of times! You can do that on the BBC


iPlayer. The Speaker gave the Prime Minister a bit of stick today. In


fact he gave it to him yesterday, gave it twice to him, but what does


the Commons think of the Speaker Bercow now? In general? To be


absolutely honest, I think in terms of statement, if you are there, you


know you're going to get called, it's much more predictable. He has


done what he said he would set out to do and make sure the


backbenchers get more of a voice. I think the new intake... He's had


more support than not? When push comes down to shove he comes down


on the side of the backbenchers. Questions about Ken Clarke, fellow


Cambridge graduate as well. Is it wise for politicians to say, it's


all right for a burglar to whack -- it's all right to whack a burglar


with a poker. Also, who, here's the big political question of the week,


who has a poker in 2011? That's a very good point. Who has Hush


Puppies in 2011. They go together. I had my head many my hands.


Firstly, the point you made, it's not for Government ministers to say


hitting someone with a poker who has come through your front door is


the correct thing to do. It must be so far from what Ken Clarke


believes and thinks. He must think it is a piece of nonsense. Poor Ken,


he is standing on his head twice a week, it's not a comfortable


position. I go to bed with a poker in one hand, hush huppis on the end


of the bed. -- hush puppies on the end of the


bed. If you like what you see in the political mirror, there are few


better places to pollish it than in the This Week sofa, or as Diane


Abbott thinks, the political Siberia, otherwise known as the


shadow public health team. It made us think about the importance of


assessing one's talents and thoughts. After we picked ourselves


up from our fit of despair, we decided to put self-esteem in this


I'm the real champion. There'll never be one like me. I will prove


I'm the greatest. I'm going to eat raw meat. I'm going to get ready.


You could never accuse heavy weight boxers of lacking in self-esteem.


As David Haye prepares for the biggest fight of his life, he knows


that humility is rarely regarded in -- rewarded in the ring. I cannot


wait to get in there and do what I've got to do. Andy Murray claims


the harder he works, the luckier he gets and believes he has what it


takes to reach a Wimbledon final. Just to understand... Jamie Oliver


asked a group of failing students to be taken on. Too little, or


centre stage. For me, the discipline, it was easy. Just how


important is a healthy assessment of your own abilities and talents?


Can it spur you on to success, and help fulfil your dreams, or blind


you to your faults and fill an overinflated ego?


Sorry about that so late at night - it has probably frightened you.


Come out from behind the sofa. It is all right. We won't bite. Jazzie


B, welcome. When you started out, were you aware of the talents you


thought you had and the faults you thought you had? I think when I


started out I was very fortunate because of my parents instilled so


much in regards to my confidence, et cetera, et cetera. Then I had a


fantastic time at school. I had some great teachers, who also


encouraged that. So, some might say I might be slightly overconfident


in certain areas, where that could be a help as well as a hinder repbs.


You probably need that in your business. The background of parents


and teachers gave you a healthy sense of self-esteem. I would like


to believe so. Not an overblown one? Come from a large family, you


get put in your place, you know often enough. That also helps.


have to eat quickly. You have to eat quickly. Who wears the right


sized shoes, et cetera, et cetera. All those things helped in regards


to my personal confidence. There are often, I have met a lot of


people from various walks, who seem to be over confident and sometimes


that may be over-compensating for their insecurities. When you dealt


with kids in Jamie Oliver's dream school, you were a teacher along


with others, Alister Campbell. David Starky. They have all been on


this programme, which is why they have self-esteem. Tell me, these


kids, because there were some difficult ones, did they suffer


from a lack or in some cases too much self-esteem that wasn't


justified? Some of them, the majority of them who, which I think


most people who saw the programme would know, those who, yes, had too


much and maybe believed that the world owed them something, and for


my measure I believe a lot of that is because of the lack of self-


esteem. So, often enough the bravado they come up and I'm this


and I'm that, and maybe attacking you before you've actually finished


the sentence, shows a level of insecurity. Yes. I see in a sense


it's the lack of self-esteem that makes them give the impression they


are full of self-esteem. Absolutely. That can be a very, very dangerous


combination. How would you describe your self-esteem, Michael? I would


describe it as Jazzie B did. It was my parents, it was my school that


gave me that confidence. I remember a time when I didn't have so much


confidence. I was in a house surrounded by books, but for


instance I didn't know at one time I would go to university. I didn't


know I would go to Cambridge. I have been surprised at every move


along the way. I observed that a big difference between people who


succeed and people who don't is not necessarily a gap between the gap


between the successful and the lack of talent of the unsuccessful. The


striking thing is self-esteem of the security and the lack of self-


esteem of the less successful. That is a big factor. People who do well,


a lot of them go around pinching themselves every day. When I was in


Cabinet I used to pinch myself. Am I really....? Is this really many?


Is that me? You think, "What am I doing here?" Would you like to


complete this hat trick of people who have self-esteem? It does start


at home in the sense that you grow up and there's a safe environment


in that sense. The other thing is learning from mistakes, from


reallyence to recover. That is bgs realistic about yourself. I


benefited greatly, it is incredibly liberating. Half the rules you


break because you don't know they are there. The other half you break


and get away with it. It is changing your background sometimes


is also good. Do you think it is a problem for boys more than girls?


What I am worried about is boys between 11hf17.


It's a mix of the two. What is per pech waited in the media for girls.


It is dangerous. Having two children myself who are, one is a


right teenager as it were and one is moving on. It's interesting to


see that, plus come from a large family, I've a snapshot or even a


bird's eye view of the differences of the males and females. Going


through interesting times right now, as well as living with technology,


et cetera, et cetera. There's always that, a huge element of


doubt, and then a huge one of self- belief. It's trying to get that


right, that you know, the guys I think, I'll stick my neck out and


say, yeah, they probably suffer a lot more, as well as that idea of


who is the alpha male? Particularly with the schooling systems. Then,


we're looking at society now, where a lot of boys are failing in


various aspects of that as well. Interesting times. It is a problem


for both of them. What are you up to? I'm about to join Jamie Oliver


on the Big Festival tomorrow on Clapham common. I'm looking forward


to that. Soul to Soul has been back on tour. We have been touring since


March. Onwards and upwards. With a healthy self-east steam following


you. Jazzie B, thank you for coming in tonight. Staying up until this


unGodly hour! It's a perfect time for me. That's your lot for tonight.


We leave you with a thought. The Chinese Prime Minister visited the


UK this week, he confirmed the loan of two giant pandas to Edinburgh


Zoo. Yes, the so-called panda diplomacy. The practise of shipping


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