07/07/2011 This Week

Tonight, This Week conjures up some political witchery and wizardry in

Westminster. As we wave goodbye to the Dark Arts of the News of the

World, what will this mean for the tabloids and the supernatural

powers of Rupert Murdoch? PR sorcerer Max Clifford casts a spell.

The magic has gone forever and Rupert Murdoch has made it

disappear. All the tabloids will be worried now about their magic.

Westminster's Chamber of Secrets, the PM's judgment is questioned by

the young Labour wizard. With the biggest press scandal in modern

times getting worse by the day, he hasn't shown the leadership

necessary today, he hasn't shown the leadership necessary on News

International. Harry Potter look- alike Nick Watt of the Guardian

jumps aboard the Hogwarts Express. I'm at Platform 9 and three-

quarters awaiting the Hogwarts Express. And the elders at Hogwarts

are treated with respect, but why don't we value our golden oldies in

the same way? One icon of the '50s, actress Sylvia Syms, waves her wand.

Grab your broomsticks and get ready for a wicked ride. Evenin' all.

Welcome to This Week, with news that Oscar Wilde was in fact wrong

to claim, "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the

stars". Because as we now know some of the gutter press were not just

looking up at the stars but also hacking into their mobile phones

listening to their voice messages and printing what they found in the

News of the World. But this week the hacking accusations went

further - into a far, far darker place - to murdered Milly Dowler's

phone, to the parents of the Soham girls, to victims of the 7/7

bombings and to families of soldiers killed in Iraq and

Afghanistan. Rupert Murdoch has finally responded - and in a way

that is as brutal as it is audacious - torching the 168-year-

old newspaper in the hope it will act as a firebreak against the

raging media storm that surrounds News Corporation. Goodbye cruel

world, indeed. Murdoch is seemingly prepared to sacrifice the biggest-

selling newspaper in the Western world rather than sack its former

editor, the Red-Top Red-Top, Rebekah Brooks. But the pressure

still remains with Ed Miliband still demanding her red-head on a

plate. I hope you followed that. And so plans are afoot to find an

excuse for the inexcusable. Reportedly, News International plan

to claim Rebekah couldn't possibly have known about the hacking of

Milly Dowler's phone because she was - wait for it - away on holiday

at the time! Ah. We'll file that in the "dog ate my homework" book of

big excuses, shall we? Speaking of those reluctant to take

responsibility for their actions the "nothing-to-do-with-me-mate"

and "me-neither-mate" of late night political chat. I speak, of course,

of Alan Johnson and Michael Portillo. Good evening. Good

evening. What was your moment of the week? The aspect of it which

strikes me. What's happening is that you never had any hope of dog

eating dog, you never had any hope of a newspaper reporting about a

newspaper. One small example - a long while ago Rebekah Brooks said

to a committee in the House of Commons that money had been paid to

policemen. Now normally you would think that might be the sort of

thing that would be investigated by another newspaper. All of that

changes this week. The Guardian prints this story and wait for it,

within 72 hours, an announcement that the News of the World is going

to close. It took Milly Dowler to get it on to the front-pages of all

of the other newspapers? Until then, most of the papers had not wanted

to write about this? Dog wasn't eating dog? None of the red-top

tabloids had it on the front-page and the Mail had it in a thin

column on the side of the page. We have moved into a world where the

biggest story in town is what is going on in the papers and the

papers will pursue that story. We have had the Times criticising the

News of the World. I do think that moves us into a better world.

moves us into a very different world for sure. Alan? James Murdoch

said this, "The paper made statements to Parliament without

being in important possession of the facts. This was wrong. The

company made out of court settlements approved by me. I did

not have a complete picture when I did so. This was wrong." Why is

that important? Two people banged up under the Rippa Act. It talks

about consent, neglect so even if you weren't involved, if there was

some issue where you just didn't know what you should have known,

that brings you into the terms of the Act. I think that is

significant. Of course, the fact that he's still got his job is

unrelated to the fact that his surname is Murdoch? Entirely

unrelated of course(!) Now between all the boozing,

rummaging through people's bins and concocting ludicrous expense claims,

it seems some of Her Majesty's press have been up to no good! I

was shocked too! Yes, less rat-like cunning and more phone hacking on

an industrial scale. Rupert Murdoch's News of the World has

been at the heart of the allegations, every day bringing

fresh revelations of the lows to which the paper had sunk. And with

politicians from all sides of the House calling for News

International chief executive and former editor Rebekah Brooks to go,

Murdoch today took the nuclear option and closed the paper. PR

impresario Max Clifford thinks many I don't think anybody realised that

when the News of the World started damaging ordinary people it would

lead to their demise, so it is a warning for the whole of Fleet

Street and also it is something which I think is going to frighten

a lot of other people in Fleet Street working on other papers. My

belief is that a lot of them are up to all kinds of very similar things

for many, many years. When I found out the News of the World had been

hacking my phone, I took them on legally at a time nobody else would,

after a lot of time and a long battle they put their hands up and

apologised. Rebekah Brooks and myself sorted out a solution. She

is someone I have a lot of time for. I don't believe for one second she

would have had inclination of these allegations concerning Milly Dowler

that her phone was being hacked. There are lots of things that

national newspaper editors aren't aware of. I have done deals with

News Editors for 40-odd years, many of which the editor of that paper

wasn't aware of. less and less people are buying newspapers in

this country, so the pressure for journalists gets greater and

greater. We desperately need a very strong and totally independent

Press Complaints Commission. That is the best chance we have got of

getting a free, healthy press and respecting the right of every

individual's privacy. I don't think it will happen. I would love to

think it might. I do think the current climate out there might

just encourage politicians knowing they have the support of the

British public because they like to do what makes them popular and make

this come about. The end of the News of the World sends out

shockwaves throughout Fleet Street and a lot of other editors of other

newspapers I would have thought now would be very worried as to their

future. Max Clifford power-broking in his office in central London

there, now joins us in our power- sapping little Westminster studio.

Max, welcome. Why has Rupert Murdoch closed the News of the

World? What's come out in the last few

days is something which has shocked and disgusted most people out there.

I don't think they were that bothered about stars, celebrities,

politicians having their phones hacked. The attitude was they use

the media all the time so when the media uses them, even though they

have overstepped the mark, no problems. Was the reputation beyond

repair? The damage that it was doing to the rest of the

organisation potentially meant that in their view it was a sensible

thing to do. The cancer was totally destroying the News of the World

because the public were turning against them in droves over the

last few days and that cancer was starting to spread to the rest of

the organisation so cut it out and hopefully that will stop it.

enormity of this decision is not appreciated. This was the first

newspaper he bought in this country? This was his first love.

He closed it? That shows how seriously worried he is about

what's gone on and what is happening and reaction from the

brush public to these accusations. They are at the moment just

accusations. A lot of the journalists tonight in WAPing on

the News of the World and on the Sun -- Wappin on the News of the

World and on The Sun, they think their newspaper has been sacrificed

to save one woman, Rebekah Brooks? No, I don't see that. I can

understand why they might. I think that it's been sacrificed to save

damage for the organisation of News International and News Corp

worldwide. Why is she still in her job? She was the editor when the

Milly Dowler thing happened? offered to resign. Why wasn't it

accepted? You would have to ask Rupert Murdoch. People being fired

tonight, most of them are innocent, most of them weren't there in the

News of the World when it was at its worst? She was the boss. They

are fired, she's got her job? ask me to explain... You have put

up a strong defence of her in the past? I have said because I don't...

You don't believe she should? don't believe she had any

inclination... Yet everyone else should? That is not my suggestion.

That is Rupert Murdoch's decision. Rupert Murdoch's decision is that

is the best thing for him to do, not my decision. I don't think that

Rebekah Wade, Rebekah Brooks, deserves to be sacked because of

this. Was he wrong to close the News of the World? Yes, I do. The

people that need to be punished are those that are responsible and the

weren't responsible. Does the closure of the News of the World,

is that a sign of panic on behalf of Murdoch, or is it a

masterstroke? He might have meant it to look almost philanthropic. It

looks cynical. It looks ruthless which are things that you attach to

Murdoch. I can't help thinking it's got more to do with the BSkyB

decision. The money isn't in newspapers, it is in television.

Those 61% of the shares that he doesn't own, I think this is -

there is an element of cynicism to it. There will be another Sunday

paper replacing it. Dave Wood, the political editor, a man I admire

and like, I think it's... A masterstroke or a sign of panic?

think it's quite bold. I think one should remember in all of this that

Murdoch has been extraordinary figure in media innovation. The

move to Wapping, the invention of Sky, and the Sky Box, the pay walls,

all of these have been immense media innovations. This is a bold

stroke. What we are witnessing here is North Korean justice. You may

know that you can go to jail for the sins of your grandfather in

North Korea. The News of the World's staff are now being fired.

I am surprised at Max's defence of Rebekah Brooks. The fact she made a

settlement should have led her surely to question what else had

been going on in the newspaper. Did she think - did she not think I

might be in here for a number of millions of pounds.? Why did she

not investigate what went on? Any minister would have had to walk the

plank if this went on his department. If something happens in

your department, even if you didn't know about it, you are responsible.

I think it is incredible... believe Rebekah has instituted an

investigation and the reason why people have been suspended and the

reason why people have been arrested is because of what she has

uncovered and revealed, or what she under her lead has led to the

police. The police are investigating themselves.

Supposedly different policemen are investigating different policemen

who have been bribed. activities that we are largely

talking about are the activities that happened under somebody else's

editorship. That's the way News International has presented it. In

James Murdoch's statement, he says in 2006 these things should have

been investigated because people have been sent to jail. Rupert

Murdoch's attempt is to begin the Max, how worried should other

tabloids, indeed just other editors, be? In my view extremely, because

according to everything I discovered during the time that I

was investigating and taken on the News of the World, all kinds of

information was passed on to me from the police and other sources

which showed that it was widespread in Fleet Street for many, many

years and that's what I believe. Right. It's not just Murdoch, but

the 2006 Commissioner's report revealed that it was widespread,

that getting information by illegal means and paying in situations

where it's illegal to pay was rampant in Fleet Street. Why didn't

your government do anything about it? Well, if you go back to when I

was Home Secretary in 2009, you referred earlier on to that, the

only newspaper that was reporting this was The Guardian. No-one else.

But you had the Information Commissioner's report, which I

would suggest as Home Secretary is more important than what The

Guardian was writing, and no matter how good the paper was, you had an

official report. Yes, we did and we should have done more with the

report. You didn't do anything with it. But the point about what you

can do - if we can called a public inquiry in 200 on the basis of when

the Met police were saying there are no other cases. We have banged

two people up and we have looked at it all, when one newspaper was

covering it, there wasn't the same atmosphere around. I put it to you,

there was no appetite from your government under Mr Blair or Mr

Brown, because both your leaders were cosying up to Mr Murdoch. The

door was like a revolving door at Downing Street. I don't think that

is fair. If we know then what we had known now -- But you had the

report. It was talking about the general approach to Rippa. There

was no Milly Dowler or victims of the Soham girls, none of that

emerging then and all of the reports were saying there were two

people involved and it didn't go any wider than that. Did you ever

discuss this with Gordon Brown? We have got reports that suggest

there are rampant illegal practises going on at the heart of our

national press, shouldn't we be doing something about it? No. In

fact, I was very careful not to discuss this with the Prime

Minister. It was a Home Secretary's responsibility and the issue of

Coulson actually being the Leader of the Opposition's press secretary

actually muddied the water, because it would have looked, if we were

talking about this in the sense of how can we take action, as if we

were using our high offices for that. Do you regret you didn't do

more, not you personally? As I said in Parliament on Wednesday, a

public inquiry might be uncomfortable for me and everyone

and looking back and I've been back to look at the papers, I can't see

on the evidence at the time that if I had called an inquiry and we are

waiting for the DPP's inquiry and the report at the time, I can't see

that it would have made sense on the information we had at the time.

Brief thought. I think the line of questioning to Alan is perfectly

reasonable, but the prosecution is not matters for Government

ministers. It's for the police. What we know is that there were

piles of evidence available to the police, which the police not only

sat upon, but denied having. It's the role of the police is at least

as questionable as the role of the News of the World. It's as big a

crisis for the police it is for the News of the World. Is this a

watershed for what we have traditionally thought of as red-top

tabloid journalism? Yes, I think it is. I think it's depending on how

close you get. I think the police are being told just look at News of

the World. -- News International. Leave everybody else alone. Who is

telling them? Whoever is in charge. Whoever is running the show. That's

what they're saying to me, because I've had the conversation with them,

the police so many times and clearly they are not interested at

the moment. OK. We'll see if that sticks. Thank you for joining us on

a momentous day for British journalism. Now, it may be late,

but you know the routine, you run the fingers down the side of the

sofa cushions. Yes, you'll reach and find that emergency bottle of

the Blue stuff. You know it's there. Any way, you need it, because

coming up star of the silver screen and golden oldie, Sylvia Syms will

be talking about society's attitudes towards the elderly. If

you want to moan on and on and on and on and on about tonight's show,

do what the new BBC chairman does, post your comments on our

interwebsite. Keep your eye out for Honkers Chris. Evening chairman.

Don't buy British, high British. That was the cry from Iain Duncan

Smith last week, who says that UK businesses should employ more UK

workers. Wouldn't say that too loudly in Derby, Mr IDS, where the

last train-making factory is to shed 1400 jobs, after losing a

Government job to -- contract to a German rival. Who says we never

make anything in this country. We sent The Guardian's Nick Watt to

where British Rail ways are still the envy of the world, to a model

village! Wait, wait, wait! Down here at Westminster Railways it's

been a pretty momentous week. Events have moved at the speed of a

high-speed German locomotive. Rather than the sedate pace of

The week started off looking, well, frankly, a bit dull. There was a

bit of Joshing of Ed Miliband after a robotic television interview,

which prompted more criticism of his leadership, but the main story

was going to be a report into the funding of long-term care for the

elderly by the economist Andrew Dilnot. This is about all of our

lives. It's great we are living longer and we should celebrate that.

People are frightened about the possibility of growing older,

because they don't know what will happen if they need care. All our

political leaders agree on the need for change as we cope with an

every-ageing population, but they are spooked by the 1.7 billion cost

of the proposals. Expect warm words about the need for cross-party

talks and the sound of knives sharpening in the background just

in case they fail. Then came the story which changed the course of

the week and shook the political and media classes. The Guardian

reported that the News of the World had hacked into the phone of Milly

Dowler. This was a change-making moment that took this long-running

saga out of the world of showbiz and politics and woke the British

people up to tabloid tactics condemned by the Times as

reprehensible. Ed Miliband was quick to call for Rebekah Brooks,

editor at the time, to resign. course, she should consider her

position. This is about the culture and practises that were obviously

going on at that newspaper, the News of the World, over a sustained

period. That was quite a step for Ed Miliband. Not you since the

Whapping despite made a challenge to the mighty Murdoch empire. The

established order in which the party in power and the party hoping

to be in power pay homage to the grumpy Australian, well that has

been ruptured for good. It overshadowed the Prime Minister's

visit to Afghanistan, where he had hoped to focus on his plans to

withdraw 500 British troops next year. If they are true, this is a

truly dreadful act and a truly dreadful situation. What I've read

in the papers is quite, quite shocking. Back home, David Cameron

tried to take the initiative at Prime Minister's questions, by

agreeing to hold a public inquiry. But the exchanges heated up when Ed

Miliband demanded that Rupert Murdoch's attempt to take full

control of BSkyB should be referred to the Competition Commission.

public will react with disbelief if next week the decision is taken to

go ahead with this deal, at a time when News International is subject

to a major criminal investigation. What we have done here is follow,

absolutely to the letter, the correct, legal processes. That is

what the Government has to do. My Right Honourable friend, the

Secretary of State, is in a quasieye judicial role and he has

to follow that. Miliband, who had been struggling, did little better

than this little chuff, chuff and turned into an InterCity 125.

has to accept he made a catastrophic error of judgment by

bringing Andy Coulson into the One disgruntled source at News

International told me that the Prime Minister had shown hubris in

bringing Andy Coulson into Downing Street with him even as the net

tightened. My source also told me that the Prime Minister had

underestimated the determination and the ability of The Guardian and

Labour backbenchers to pursue this matter. Mr James Murdoch is the

chairman. It is clear, now, that he's personally and without board

approval, authorised money to be paid by his company to silence

people who had been hacked and to cover up criminal behaviour within

his organisation. Just 24 hours later James Murdoch issued a

statement saying yes, he had approved out-of-court settlements,

but added he didn't know the full picture. Theres with a particularly

settlement that I authorised and I've said was made with information

that was incomplete. I acted on the advice of executives and lawyers,

within incomplete investigations and that's a matter of real regret

for me. Then came the killer blow - the News of the World, well, that's

going to be shunted off the tracks. Oh, watch out, here comes the Sun

on Sunday. As for Gordon the grumpy engine, it's been a week of mixed

emotions. He thinks he would still be running the railways if these

allegations had come out 18 months ago. Britain's railways used to be

the envy of the world. A bit like our press. This has been a great

train journey, but look, there's Michael pour -- pour till low. --

Michael Portillo. Harry Potter joins us now. Welcome to the

programme. Thank you for that report. Michael, how bad is this

for David Cameron? Bad. It's described as a catastrophic

misjudgment to appoint Mr Coulson and if the reports this evening

that Andy Coulson will be arrested are true, well, - even if they're

not, it's pretty bad. The Guardian is reporting that he is to be

arrested tomorrow, Friday. That's right. It's on the front page of

the guard guard. The main story is the end of the News of the World,

but the second story that Andy Coulson will be rested in the

morning. One senior Tory Cabinet minister said to me tonight when I

told him that's what you were reporting, he said that's a

disaster, because it puts the Tories back into the frame.

Absolutely. Peter Oborne was saying is this David Cameron's David Kelly

moment? Obviously the death -- sorry the suicide of the Government

weapons inspector. The point about David Kelly, that was an absolute

cut-through moment where people thought this is a Government that

took us to war falsely and the staff basically hounded a man not

deliberately, but hounded a man to his death. I do not believe this is

quite at the cut-through moment like that, but there are big, big

questions about the judgment of David Cameron in hiring Andy

Coulson a few months after he had to resign one one of his reporters

was jailed and then taking him into Downing Street after my editor had

warned him, as my editor said on Newsnight tonight, watch out, Andy

Coulson is going to be called as a Is an issue which is good and bad.

In a situation like that, the Prime Minister ought to be on the side of

good. He has himself in this complicated system where he

employed one of the people who is involved in all of this. You think

it was a misjudgment to hire Andy Coulson? Yes. I believe it must

have been borne out of a desperation which the Conservative

Party felt at the time. They needed an Alastair Campbell. They didn't

know how they were going to win the next election. Someone who came

from a different background? And by all accounts he did the job

superbly well. How does David Cameron insulate himself? The

Guardian stories are rife. This is yet - News of the World closes on

Thursday, Prime Minister's former Press Secretary arrested on Friday.

This is page one, page one, page one? Absolutely. One must remember

to some extent this is what News International has also orchestrated

because rather than throwing Rebekah Brooks to the wolves, they

have thrown Andy Coulson to the wolves. News International released

e-mails that implicated him in authorising payments to policemen.

This... You lot are reporting this because of the hacking? Yes, the

payments to the police is at the heart of it all. I was talking to

senior Conservatives and what they are saying is we don't know where

this is going to go. We can't prejudice any criminal inquiry but

if Andy Coulson is arrested, if he faces criminal charges, what is

going to happen and ministers are scared. I quoted in that film there

a source at News International who is saying it was hueb Rouse of

David Cameron to appoint Andy Coulson. They came back and said,

"There, there, dear, dear, you are a little Guardian obsessive, this

story should be on your media pages." Now, it has come obviously

to the civil. This has the potential for serious embarrassment

for the Prime Minister. We should not forget that your Government,

not you personally, but under Mr Blair and Mr Brown, you all supped

with a very short spoon with Andy Coulson, Rebekah Wade, James

Murdoch... Yourself! You deal with the media. It is a very different

thing. I don't remember you giving me any kind of spoon. I gave you an

orange juice in 2007! It is a different thing to taking a former

editor of the News of the World who resigned because this happened on

his watch, making him your communications leader. Now he has

been thrown to the wolves by News International, the News of the

World has been thrown to the wolves. The only one that is still there is

Rebekah Brooks. That is another problem for the Prime Minister.

What he didn't do on Wednesday was say that she should consider her

position. The change - this is the first time since the 1980s that the

Opposition party has been willing to take on News International. Why

is that happening? The Labour Party Conference, the evening of Gordon

Brown's speech, the last one before the general election and The Sun

binned him in a brutal way and Gordon Brown has not forgiven them

and neither has the Labour Party. I'm told Mr Brown is helping to

Stoke the fires a little bit. saying if this had come out 18

months ago he could still be Prime Minister. I am sure he dreams of

that every night. Is Ed Miliband right to burn his bridges with News

International? Yes, Ed Miliband had a good Prime Minister's Questions,

he was right. Cameron was right on one, the public inquiry. He thought

that would give him an easy time. He was wrong on Rebekah Brooks and

on BSkyB. That is the other problem for David Cameron. It is not just

Andy Coulson's arrest tomorrow. lost his temper when Ed Miliband

asked him about Andy Coulson. the Government in these

circumstances really sit back and let the go-ahead take place for the

rest of BSkyB to fall into Mr Murdoch's remit? I take the view

that Alan hinted at earlier. I think the takeover of BSkyB is

perfectly possible with everything that happened at the beginning of

this, of the last decade. What I think raises a real difficulty is

Mr Murdoch admitting that he made payments which apparently weren't

authorised by the board to try and close down this inquiry. That does

look to me like the sort of issue that raises the fit and proper

person issue. Is closing the News of the World, given everything it's

been accused of, does that make Rupert Murdoch a fit and proper

person to hold Sky? Of course not. I doubt if he was naive enough to

think that that was the case. I think he thought it would help, as

Michael said it's a dramatic big step. But it's not going to work.

Let me ask you this bigger question. Since Harold Wilson in the late

'60s, Mr Wilson, Mrs Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown,

now David Cameron have all sought his support because they thought it

would help make them Prime Minister. Do you think any politician today

would want to campaign on having the back of Rupert Murdoch's

support? Indeed. Absolutely, it changes everything. I always

thought that people, politicians shouldn't be scared of Rupert

Murdoch. That was John Major's great problem. The point about

Rupert Murdoch is Rupert Murdoch backs winners. Why did he back Tony

Blair? Because he was going to win. Is his influence over in British

politics? Ed Miliband took that approach from the time he was

leader, even before... Is it over? Yes, it's over. It's transformed.

All right. We will have to leave it there. Good to see you on the sofa.

Now, some people think speaking of sofas this week's sofa is an

expensive retirement home for political geriatrics. Some people

have a point! Alan is forever reminiscing about the good old days.

Michael is ringing his bell demanding one of his nurses puts

him to bed! So we decided it was high time to put old people in this

We are living longer, but there is a high price to pay. So does this

week's report offers a solution and protects people's assets. We could

take away the fear that people would lose everything they have

built up and people seem anxious that they might lose all Ofili the

value of their house. Has the report missed a trick by glancing

over the quality of care the elderly receive? The unveiling of

Ronald Reagan's statue reminded us that age is no barrier. In the UK,

Party Leaders seem to be getting younger and wiser? Can they be in

tune with the issues of the older generation? So have family

structures altered the way society views the elderly. The wonderful

Sylvia Syms joins us. Welcome to This Week. Great to see you. Are we

as a society, do we now value the opinion of older people less than

we used to? I don't know about less. I think it is different. I look

around and I see a great many old men in rather important positions.

Don't see as many old women. Yet, if you are running a charity, you

won't get anything done unless you have the women behind you. We are

the workers in the background. So it is not enough respect for

anybody over a certain age. But the young, the very young can be

respectful and very affectionate. Television and film kind of

encourages that prejudice? Yes. Mostly old women you see in

television, they are some old loony or the dreadful mother-in-law. I'm

definitely an old loony, but I'm not yet a mother-in-law. There is

still time! Do you think - have politicians grasped the demographic

importance of the older population now? They are grasping it, I think.

Are they behind the curve? I'm not sure they are. The great thing

about New Labour and everything that's happened since is the

movement of politics towards the middle-classes. They were made up

of these older people. People with rather Conservative middle of the

road views are very largely these older people. I think it has been

recognised. Explain to me this paradox, the young country, the

United States, has lots of old politicians. The old country, the

United Kingdom, our politicians seem to be getting younger and

younger. If you hit 60 as a Jack Straw, you are regarded as out of

it. In America, you are just getting going. Not the heads of

businesses. If you look around the boards - and I do occasionally get

invited to board meetings - many of them are quite grey-haired and

elderly. More so than politicians. Our politicians seem to be a bit

young? They have got younger. Isn't that because we are getting older?

Yes! No, no. They are. Do we value experience less than we used to?

Definitely. You have this extraordinary thing, you go to do a

play or a television and you find the person in charge of you has

just come up from the floor, has no idea what you have done, no idea of

your career, can't discuss anything very much, it's rather scary. You

think do I have to retrain to be able to speak to these people?

Yet... Students are not like that! The "grey vote", in America it is

becoming more important than ever. People are living longer than they

did so older people vote more than younger people, they should be the

most potent demographic group of the lot, yet they don't seem to be

able to galvanise themselves? don't know if we have them rallying

yet. I felt at the last election, we had to get them active. They are

terribly active in local things like they go and take extra courses,

they go to line dancing, you would be amazed at the things that go on.

People take degrees when they are 75! I do think we should organise

them more. Every election coming up, older people will become more and

more important in determining the outcome? Yes. If you look at what

is happening at the moment, trying to get the fiscal deficit down,

many people will say that every group in society has been affected

except pensioners. Politicians are careful not to go anywhere near

winter fuel allowance, not to go anywhere near Pension Credits. That

is because of the power of the "grey vote". I will let that hang