20/10/2011 This Week


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20/10/2011

A political review of the week presented by Andrew Neil, with Michael Portillo and guests.


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Tonight, Citizen Neil gets into the revolutionary spirit. As protesters

:00:17.:00:20.

are cleared out of Dale Farm and violence returns to the streets of

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Athens, will the rebellious spirit in the Tory Party cause trouble for

:00:23.:00:29.

the PM in Westminster? The Guardian's Nick Watt joins a

:00:29.:00:38.

peaceful protest on the steps of St Paul's Cathedral. It may be

:00:38.:00:42.

frightfully civilised down here, but back in Westminster Tory MPs

:00:42.:00:45.

are rattling the gates of Downing Street. Citizens protesting about

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the price of food and fuel as inflation soars and unemployment

:00:48.:00:53.

hits a 17-year high. Channel Four's Fairy Jobmother holds her placard

:00:53.:01:03.
:01:03.:01:04.

up high. If the Government want to incentivise people to gain

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employment they need to show us more carrots and less sticks. And

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crowds of joy, rather than protest, as the Stone Roses re-unite. But

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can you really recreate the magic in music and in politics? The

:01:17.:01:24.

original Prince Charming, Adam Ant, stands and delivers. If people want

:01:24.:01:27.

to get back together and make some money in the process, that's fine

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:01:37.:01:46.

Power to the people! Evening all. Welcome to This Week - a week that

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began with a Cabinet Minister's blood on the Westminster carpet and

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ended with a Colonel's blood in a Libyan drainpipe. Yes, after seven

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long months, the NATO campaign to prevent Muammar Gaddafi attending

:01:56.:02:03.

the 2012 Olympics has finally borne some fruit. The Brother Leader

:02:03.:02:06.

avoided being lynched, but couldn't dodge the bullet that ended 42

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years of brutal, idiosyncratic rule. Starring in his very own snuff

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movie appears to be the Colonel's final gift to a grateful Libyan

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nation, who are now free from the yoke of tyranny, while Seb Coe now

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has half a dozen tickets going spare for the 100m final. If

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anyone's interested, just call 0800 TICKET FARCE. He's waiting on the

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line now. Speaking of those who know a thing or two about

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personality cult, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by the dear leader and

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calm down dear of late-night political chat - I speak, of course,

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of Michael Portillo and, back again despite no public demand whatsoever,

:02:46.:02:56.
:02:56.:03:00.

Diane Abbott! Welcome it you both. Good to have you back. Michael,

:03:00.:03:05.

moment of the week, obviously the death of Mr Gaddafi. Is it good

:03:05.:03:10.

that he was shot in the end rather than taken alive? Yes. I think it

:03:10.:03:15.

helps the people to move on. It brings back so many recollections.

:03:15.:03:19.

I remember sitting in the House one night in 1986 and we were in the

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middle of a very important vote and I looked at Margaret Thatcher and I

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saw the look on her face and I thought what was going on, the

:03:26.:03:31.

planes were flying that night from Britain to bomb Gaddafi in Libya.

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They were American planes, Reagan was trying to kill Gaddafi off and

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then I think there was the Lockerbie bombing and the murder of

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PC Fletcher, and then there was the release of the bomber and Tony

:03:45.:03:51.

Blair embracing Gaddafi and now he's been brought down by NATO led

:03:51.:04:00.

by David Cameron. The British foreign policy. Not for nothing?

:04:00.:04:07.

Better dead than alive? Probably. Just on your point, didn't someone

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say no eternal allies, only eternal interests? It is probably more

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practical that he was shot, but there is a lingering wish that he

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could have stood trial, but you can see the difficulty there. The

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challenge now is going to be rebuilding Libya as a stable

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country. Will it encourage David Cameron to be more

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interventionalist? Mr Blair was successful first time out. He went

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mad in the end. I think what David Cameron ought to think is that he

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was jolly lucky in this case, because I don't think he ever

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really intended this campaign. I think he was calling the bluff of

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the Americans that they wouldn't go along. He didn't think they would

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be part of this. He was jolly nearly right because they weren't

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really. We were stuck with the situation and for a long period it

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looked like a failure. In the end we snatched some sort of victory

:05:00.:05:05.

from the jaws of defeat, but if I were him I would cash in my chips

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at this point. I think so. You made the point, when Blair had what

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seemed like success in Kosovo it went right to his head. The other

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big development tonight is the eurozone leaders saying they will

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not come to an agreement this weekend. We'll talk about that

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later, but that will have dramatic impact on the markets. Now,

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unemployment's at a record levels. People up and down the country are

:05:30.:05:35.

struggling to get jobs. I can tell you even here in Westminster, we're

:05:35.:05:38.

feeling the effects. Look at poor old Diane, overlooked once

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again,for a Shadow Cabinet role. Does Mr Miliband not recognise

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talent when he sees it? Clearly not. I'll have a word with you., Edward.

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But back to the real world, Call Me Dave and his chums have announced

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various schemes to get the unemployed into work, so we thought

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we'd ask our very own Fairy Jobmother, Hayley Taylor, for her

:06:01.:06:11.
:06:11.:06:25.

take on whether or not he's leading On the faces of the people I work

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with, all I see is pure fear. Fear of failure, fear of being stuck on

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a system that they can't get off. Fear, also, of being sanctioned for

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six weeks if a job possibility doesn't work out. We are seeing

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high rates of unemployment, rocketing inflation, and people

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under pressure and people are very scared. It seems strange to me that

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the Government are praying on the fear and imposing the sanctions. I

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know it's about carrots and sticks, but where are the carrots? Measures

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in the welfare to work programme like stopping benefits for those

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that won't accept a position. Travelling 90 minutes one way to

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take up an opportunity. They realy don't sit well with me at all. It's

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obvious to me that the Government have absolutely no idea what it is

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like to live hand to mouth. Have they ever lived in council houses?

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Any real comprehension of what the people have to go through on a

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daily basis? I've met lots of unemployed people and the majority

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of them do want to work. It's totally unfair that the Government

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would put the sanctions in place and effect those that for whatever

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reason cannot move forward now. The Government is wrong to penalise the

:07:45.:07:55.
:07:55.:07:55.

many in the hope of targeting the few. If you were employment

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minister for the day what I would do is to invest more in the job

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centre advisers. They are on strict targets and deadlines and therefore

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can't match an individual's specific needs. I also would

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introduce, for the 25% who have no intention of working, the food

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stamp system. That way there's less disposable income and they may be

:08:17.:08:24.

more likely to go out there and work. I know it's not easy getting

:08:24.:08:28.

back in employment, but what the Government need to do is give us

:08:28.:08:38.
:08:38.:08:39.

more incentives. More carrots, please, and less sticks. As if by

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magic, Hayley appears here. You don't need a high-speed train. We

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are here in the Westminster bubble. Doncaster is about as far away as

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you can get from that. What is life like to be unemployed there? Life

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to be unemployed in Doncaster is absolutely horrendous. Wear a black

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spot -- we are a black spot. Birmingham is the largest block

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spot, followed by Middlesbrough. Doncaster I don't think is far

:09:09.:09:13.

behind. It's tough? Very. This business of the sticks the

:09:13.:09:17.

Government is using to encourage people to look for work, to get

:09:17.:09:20.

work, just explain why you are worried about that, because I guess

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the feeling may be that if you are looking - if you are looking for

:09:24.:09:27.

work the sticks don't matter, because you are looking? It's the

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way the Government is dealing with the situation that we have got.

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They are really penalising people that do want to work. The sanctions

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that they are putting in place are creating such fear. People feel

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they are unable to even try to move forward, because every time they

:09:44.:09:47.

take a step forward they are beaten back down and this is where the

:09:47.:09:53.

stick comes in. What do you mean by that? It's my understanding that if

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you can't find a job and if the Government isn't offering to help

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you get a job, you continue with your benefits? Nothing happening to

:10:02.:10:07.

you -- nothing happens to you. Government have come up with a

:10:07.:10:11.

crazy scheme of 90 minutes to travel to find a job. Some of the

:10:11.:10:17.

people I work with have had to sell their cars. 90 minutes from

:10:17.:10:23.

Doncaster to London. �60 is minimum I've ever paid. �145 is the most

:10:23.:10:27.

expensive. That is for a day return. How is that realistic. Nobody could

:10:27.:10:32.

expect people looking for work to have to pay for a train fare to

:10:32.:10:37.

London? This 90-minute rule is something suggested. How can that

:10:37.:10:42.

be at all the right thing to even start to look towards? You are

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walking on people who are already down. Do you think the Government

:10:46.:10:49.

is out of touch with these kind of practicalities? I think they are

:10:49.:10:54.

totally out of touch and with the people. The Government do not live

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the lives of these unemployed people that I deal with on a daily

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basis. Unemployment is absolutely devastating. It is demoralising and

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depressing. People cannot face getting out of bed. There is

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nothing to look forward to and there is no assistance whatsoever

:11:10.:11:17.

of any practical side. Can a Cabinet of millionaires understand

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the difficulties in Doncaster? Probably not. I think a big

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criticism of this Cabinet is that it doesn't have the direct line to

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the working man and woman that I think Margaret Thatcher had. She

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had the automatic connection, probably because she was a grocer's

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daughter. I think there are big issues about incentives. For

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example, there is the most tremendous accumulation of

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households in council housing without work. Whereas, in private

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renting housing and in owner occupation you have much higher

:11:53.:11:56.

levels of contact with the labour market. You have to ask this. One

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of the reasons is for instance we give housing to people who are the

:12:00.:12:05.

most in deed, so people have an incentive to maximise their

:12:05.:12:09.

neediness. They are no incentive to try to improve themselves and get

:12:10.:12:13.

into work. A councillor was saying we are going to prioritise our

:12:13.:12:17.

housing by giving it to people who are in work. Why would they do

:12:17.:12:22.

that? Because they then begin to create some incentives. Not only do

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I get a job, but I get the opportunity to get a house. Whereas,

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at the moment is the houses are going to people who don't have

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houses and people have no incentive to raise themselves from that

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position. What is your response to that? My response would be I think

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the reason why the people in council houses are mainly

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unemployed is because they very much become their environment.

:12:47.:12:54.

There may be a concentration of unemployed, but I'm not sure the

:12:54.:13:01.

majority are? I disagree. In London they are. One of the problems is

:13:01.:13:04.

housing benefit. One of the things that traps people in council

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accommodation is if they go and get a job they lose a lot of other

:13:08.:13:14.

benefits like housing benefit, so you have to steak now where

:13:14.:13:17.

children don't see people going out to work. They just don't see it.

:13:17.:13:22.

What is the point? My point is I agree with you. I think the

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Government's got it wrong. Even though to an extent my Government

:13:28.:13:32.

were starting to buy into that narrative. You laid the ground work

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for it as Mr Purnell will be happy to tell you. A great man. The next

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leader of the Labour Party! I wanted to talk about the 25% you

:13:44.:13:48.

said don't want to work. I think attitudes to work have changed. My

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father got up, went to work, five days a week. It's absolutely in my

:13:54.:13:59.

brother's and mine DNA that's what men do. They go out to work. I

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represent people who are on estates where nobody works and there are

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all sorts of reasons, but they don't see it. You talked about the

:14:06.:14:11.

25% and I think there are an issue and you talked about food stamps.

:14:11.:14:14.

The attitudes to work have changed. One of the things you find with

:14:14.:14:17.

young people and when I counsel them about work, some say I

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couldn't do that, because I wouldn't enjoy it. I think to

:14:21.:14:28.

myself, who says you have to enjoy your job. If it is so debilitating

:14:28.:14:35.

why is it that almost two million immigrants are found -- have found

:14:35.:14:40.

jobs in this country and - This is one of the things that has

:14:40.:14:43.

emboldened the Government. British Chamber of Commerce found

:14:43.:14:47.

out that attitude to work and ability to get up and go to work in

:14:47.:14:50.

the morning and to apply yourself to be reliable, these immigrants

:14:50.:14:56.

had it and a lot of British-born folk didn't. The immigrants, do

:14:56.:15:00.

they have the same opportunities in their country? Why do they take

:15:00.:15:04.

them here? Because there are opportunities here. Why don't our

:15:04.:15:09.

own people take them? They are prepared to work for the minimum

:15:09.:15:14.

wage. Why shouldn't our people do that? The 25% are professionally

:15:14.:15:18.

unemployed. It's their job. They are professional at it. Don't they

:15:18.:15:22.

need some sticks, because they are living at our expense? For that 25%,

:15:22.:15:27.

yes, of course, but what I'm saying is you cannot give to the 25% that

:15:27.:15:32.

really -- 75% that really want to work, you can't tar them with the

:15:32.:15:36.

same brush. They are the ones who should be pressed. The other 95%

:15:36.:15:40.

should be treated in a different way? Of course. Do you think you

:15:40.:15:45.

can look at someone and you know whether they are in the 25 or 75?

:15:45.:15:55.
:15:55.:16:00.

One of the problems is that you are applying your judgment and

:16:00.:16:03.

discretion and the law does not allow you to do that. What the law

:16:03.:16:08.

says is that if somebody presents in your office and they have gone

:16:08.:16:10.

through the business of saying they are looking for work in the

:16:10.:16:14.

previous week, you have to pay them a benefit. You're not allowed to

:16:14.:16:19.

use your judgment, discretion and experience. If we introduced a

:16:19.:16:22.

system where you could, I would be on your side and that would be a

:16:22.:16:28.

step forward. We had better leave it there on that agreement. That is

:16:28.:16:32.

a first. Thank you for being with us. Now, calm yourselves because

:16:32.:16:35.

there's only one thing more exciting than a missing G-spot and

:16:36.:16:38.

a strip search at the World Scrabble Championships, and he's

:16:38.:16:42.

waiting in the wings as we speak, the dandy highwayman himself, the

:16:42.:16:45.

king of the wild frontier, Adam Ant, who'll be talking about the wisdom

:16:45.:16:51.

of the reunion. And if your font is stuck on your favourite large green

:16:51.:16:55.

typeface and you're down to your last barrel of Blue Nun, stick your

:16:55.:16:59.

head in it, then head on over to our interweb site, or follow us on

:16:59.:17:05.

Twitter. Or sign up to The Facebook and tell us why we deserve a pay

:17:05.:17:09.

rise. Now, Michael and I went camping at

:17:09.:17:15.

the weekend. Doesn't happen very often. But our friends Tamara and

:17:15.:17:18.

Arabella were both going, and besides the brochure promised 50 or

:17:18.:17:21.

so delightful self-catering plots with stunning views of the Basildon

:17:21.:17:26.

countryside. The next thing you know Tamara's got herself arrested,

:17:26.:17:31.

Arabella's chained by the neck to a portaloo and Michael's been tasered.

:17:31.:17:36.

He's still coming round. Next year, I think we should pitch our tent

:17:36.:17:39.

somewhere quieter, like the Guardian's Nick Watt did at St

:17:39.:17:49.
:17:49.:17:59.

Paul's. It is only me. Don't tell my mum

:17:59.:18:04.

I'm here. Look, somebody's got to take a stand, there have been

:18:04.:18:08.

shocking price rises recently. I blame those filthy capitalists. One

:18:09.:18:15.

can hardly afford to eat these days. Yummy! That is something I picked

:18:15.:18:25.
:18:25.:18:40.

It helps to fund this modern -- modest lifestyle if you can pocket

:18:40.:18:43.

�17,000 as a golden goodbye when you lose your job. And some people

:18:43.:18:49.

are still not happy. Last week's media frenzy was not unprecedented

:18:49.:18:53.

and it happens when a necessary free press and politics collide.

:18:53.:18:57.

But I believe there was from some quarters a personal vindictiveness,

:18:57.:19:02.

even hatred, that should worry all of us. Liam Fox apologised for

:19:02.:19:06.

blurring the lines between his private and official roles in those

:19:06.:19:10.

five-star hotels, but the crack in his voice shows that he believes he

:19:10.:19:14.

has been unfairly treated. He believes it is still ride for

:19:14.:19:18.

ministers to have outside advice. I think the best way to understand Dr

:19:18.:19:23.

Fox is to think of him as an American politician, constantly

:19:23.:19:26.

challenging the system, who just happens to have been born in

:19:26.:19:31.

Scotland. There may be no love lost between David Cameron and Dr Fox,

:19:31.:19:34.

but the Prime Minister was irritated when Ed Miliband -- Ed

:19:34.:19:39.

Miliband challenged him over his handling of the affair.

:19:39.:19:42.

Secretary of State for Defence recognised he had made a mistake,

:19:42.:19:45.

acknowledged that he broke the ministerial code and he resigned.

:19:45.:19:52.

That is not something that always happened in the last 13 years.

:19:52.:19:56.

Speaker, a piece of advice to the Prime Minister, this week, of all

:19:56.:20:05.

weeks, show a bit of humility. I wonder what else mummy has packed

:20:05.:20:10.

for me. A bit of caviar, gentleman's relish, and a guide to

:20:10.:20:15.

push bingo. Of course, a Cabinet would never -- never be selected

:20:15.:20:20.

that way. And who is the winner of this week's Cabinet reshuffle? The

:20:20.:20:25.

millionaire from Surrey. It is a moment of sadness as well. Liam Fox

:20:25.:20:29.

did a great job at Defence, making a great starting clearing up the

:20:29.:20:34.

mess that Labour left behind. I will do everything in my power to

:20:34.:20:37.

justify the trust the Prime Minister has placed in me by

:20:37.:20:45.

offering me this job. Thank you. The old guard are not happy. John

:20:45.:20:50.

Redwood has joined forces with a sizable group of Euro-sceptics, to

:20:50.:20:54.

sign a Commons motion calling for a referendum on Britain's membership

:20:54.:20:58.

of the European Union. David Cameron is so nervous about a

:20:58.:21:01.

rebellion that he has brought the debate forward by three days to

:21:01.:21:07.

ensure he is around next Monday. do not support holding a referendum

:21:07.:21:11.

come what may. That is not our policy and I will not be supporting

:21:11.:21:21.
:21:21.:21:23.

that motion. I am sure my special adviser, otherwise known as my

:21:23.:21:29.

ballet, is here somewhere. Anyway, the Prime Minister will be adding

:21:29.:21:33.

to Brussels on Sunday for what has been dubbed a bazooka summit.

:21:33.:21:37.

European leaders are hoping to reach agreement on a new bail-out

:21:37.:21:41.

of up to two trillion euros to prevent the defaults in Greece.

:21:41.:21:46.

They are absolutely terrifying that could have a domino effect in other

:21:46.:21:50.

weaker economies like Spain and Portugal. Well, the protests in

:21:50.:21:56.

Greece make this look a bit like Glyndebourne. But make no mistake,

:21:56.:21:59.

the storm clouds are gathering as we in Britain head back to the

:21:59.:22:05.

dreaded stagflation of the 1970s. We have had 18 months of his

:22:05.:22:08.

economic experiment and what has he got to show for it? More and more

:22:08.:22:12.

people losing their jobs, more and more businesses going bust and

:22:12.:22:16.

inflation going through the roof. And all we have got is a Prime

:22:16.:22:22.

Minister who is hopelessly out of touch. His plan is to add �23

:22:22.:22:26.

billion to Britain's deficit this year at almost �100 billion to our

:22:26.:22:30.

deficit by the end of the parliament. There is not one single

:22:30.:22:37.

country in Europe that would have such a crazy blam. Such a crazy

:22:37.:22:45.

plan that you deal... Us anti- capitalist protesters would do away

:22:45.:22:51.

with the pair of them. Mum was my friend, Mervyn, he is a bit gloomy

:22:51.:22:56.

at the moment. In the absence of rebalancing globally, and

:22:56.:23:01.

especially in the euro area, we could be facing a recovery that is

:23:01.:23:06.

not nearly reluctant but recalcitrant. Oh, dear! I could be

:23:06.:23:16.
:23:16.:23:29.

here for some time. I need these by He is still outside St Paul's. Go

:23:29.:23:36.

and visit him, ensure he will give you a drink of champagne. Michael,

:23:36.:23:41.

let's start with the Westminster end of Europe. Her or damaging is

:23:41.:23:46.

it for David Cameron that so many Conservative MPs are pushing hard

:23:46.:23:51.

for a referendum. -- how damaging. It is a big nuisance, and

:23:51.:23:55.

embarrassment, a distraction, it takes the public mind back to the

:23:55.:23:59.

Conservative Party of old, the Conservative Party when I was in

:23:59.:24:03.

Government when we were split from top to bottom on Europe. He feels

:24:03.:24:07.

he needs to focus on his approach to the euro issues, and he does not

:24:07.:24:11.

want to be distracted by this talk of having a referendum, which he

:24:11.:24:15.

regards as unrealistic and irrelevant. I think he must be

:24:15.:24:19.

somewhat surprised at the number of new members of parliament who are

:24:19.:24:22.

in this group, and even some of them who have been closely

:24:22.:24:27.

associated with him. There are former special advisers him there,

:24:27.:24:31.

people who actually know what real politics is about and yet they are

:24:31.:24:38.

signed up to it, too. The 2010 Tory intake, the new intake, is more

:24:38.:24:42.

Euro-sceptic than your lot were. It is one of their defining features.

:24:42.:24:46.

You could see the faces when this came up in Prime Minister's

:24:46.:24:51.

Questions, the faces of his backbenchers. They are up for it.

:24:51.:24:54.

Why would David Cameron pick a fight on this, because the motion

:24:54.:24:59.

is not going to get through? Why go for a three-line whip and with

:24:59.:25:06.

everybody into line on this? He may have to step back from that, but...

:25:06.:25:10.

I suppose because otherwise people will say his authority is worth

:25:10.:25:17.

nothing. But one of the options in a referendum is to repatriate

:25:17.:25:23.

powers back to London. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that in

:25:23.:25:27.

the Tory manifesto? Why we do not vote for that? I suppose that is

:25:27.:25:31.

one of the reasons all of this is happening, that there is a lot of

:25:31.:25:34.

disappointment that David Cameron, when he was trying to be elected

:25:34.:25:38.

leader of the Conservative Party, made quite a lot of statements

:25:38.:25:41.

about his Euro-scepticism. He thought he was fighting tooth and

:25:42.:25:45.

nail with David Davies, who had a more Euro-sceptic position. This

:25:46.:25:49.

was a misconception, because David Davis had been a whip on the

:25:49.:25:54.

Maastricht bill and had no friends on the Euro-sceptic right after all.

:25:54.:25:56.

But David Cameron played along and said a lot of Euro-sceptic things

:25:56.:25:59.

and people are angry has pulled back a long way from that, because

:25:59.:26:03.

when you are Prime Minister you drop -- do not want to be in that

:26:03.:26:09.

position. Why has Labour got a three-line whip against this?

:26:09.:26:14.

backbenchers are so probably disaffected that they have seen --

:26:14.:26:17.

because they have seen jobs could the Lib Dems, so they are poised to

:26:17.:26:24.

kick up over this. My personal view, I voted against the economic and

:26:24.:26:28.

monetary union section of Maastricht. For reasons that we

:26:28.:26:34.

have all seen. I am a loyal frontbencher. What happened to the

:26:34.:26:38.

Diane Abbott that we know. You just do as you're told. I think

:26:38.:26:42.

personally we could take them down on this because they are so split.

:26:42.:26:45.

All that we would have to do is give people a free vote and let

:26:45.:26:49.

them do what they want. But we are not going to do that. If you had

:26:49.:26:53.

given your side a free vote, quite a lot of Labour people would have

:26:53.:26:58.

voted for the referendum. Indeed, and then Cameron would have been

:26:58.:27:02.

frightened. However, the people who advise my leader are more

:27:02.:27:06.

scrupulous than myself. I want to, and to the wider position in a

:27:06.:27:12.

minute, but if you are a Euro- sceptic, bliss it is to the Euro-

:27:12.:27:17.

sceptic at the moment. It has all gone pear-shaped. It is exactly as

:27:17.:27:22.

proper side. My point is that this is now going to become a defining

:27:22.:27:28.

issue of the Cameron years. Yes, because the Euro-sceptics think the

:27:28.:27:31.

collapse of the euro is an opportunity to reassess our entire

:27:31.:27:33.

relationship, including the possibility of leaving the European

:27:33.:27:38.

Union. While the Government is urging the eurozone to engage in

:27:38.:27:41.

closer political Corporation and Union, there may well be a treaty

:27:41.:27:44.

amendment and then there would have to be a referendum in this country,

:27:44.:27:50.

in my view. -- closer political co- operation. There is not going to be

:27:50.:27:55.

a referendum in this Parliament, is there? No, but we could have fun

:27:55.:27:59.

voting with the Tory right on it. This talk of throwing money at the

:27:59.:28:03.

eurozone to stop Greece defaulting, everybody knows that Greece will

:28:03.:28:07.

have to default in some form or another. It is money down the drain.

:28:07.:28:11.

So there will not be a referendum. There will not be a repatriation of

:28:11.:28:17.

powers either, probably, in this Parliament. No, there will not.

:28:17.:28:22.

Tory backbench will be furious. there is a treaty amendment, which

:28:22.:28:25.

is a high probability, and no referendum, that means trouble for

:28:26.:28:28.

David Cameron because he has always said any treaty amendment would go

:28:28.:28:34.

to a referendum. Sticking with domestic, Liam Fox's resignation

:28:34.:28:39.

statement, what did you make of it? First of all, his resignation was

:28:39.:28:43.

completely necessary and warranted. He breached the ministerial code,

:28:43.:28:47.

clearly. In his resignation speech - it may well be that his family

:28:47.:28:51.

and his friends and everybody has known has been hounded by the press,

:28:51.:28:55.

and if that is the case, I do not see why he should not cry foul and

:28:55.:29:00.

mention that in his statement. I think that is probably what he was

:29:00.:29:04.

alluding to. I was in the house and I thought he sounded like he was

:29:04.:29:08.

whingeing. I am sure his family and friends got a hard time, but that

:29:08.:29:13.

happens in politics. He does not really seem to understand he has

:29:13.:29:17.

done anything wrong. I am not sure he does think he has done anything

:29:18.:29:22.

wrong. That is what came over when he made his speech. That is the

:29:22.:29:25.

problem. He may think he did something wrong at the margin but

:29:26.:29:30.

he does not feel he has done anything corrupt. That is

:29:30.:29:35.

problematic. From my point of view, I cannot understand what could

:29:35.:29:39.

possibly have merited this degree of, let me call it exotic financial

:29:40.:29:45.

arrangements. The thing is, man, woman or a hamster, he had an

:29:45.:29:50.

inappropriate relationship with that young man. Was there a

:29:50.:29:57.

hamster? I thought I had read everything. The lawyers on this

:29:57.:30:02.

programme have been relaxed while you were not here. They are already

:30:02.:30:05.

speaking in my ear. Am I right in thinking they can be no comeback

:30:05.:30:10.

this side of the election, this Parliament? Yes, when money is

:30:10.:30:15.

involved, it is difficult to make a comeback. Does it do damage to Mr

:30:15.:30:20.

Cameron, or to the Tory modernising project? I do not think people

:30:20.:30:23.

really understand what he did, but they feel that here is another MP,

:30:23.:30:28.

a minister that has been up to no good. Yes, that is undoubtedly the

:30:28.:30:33.

case but I think David Cameron had a lot of luck on this. Thank

:30:33.:30:36.

goodness Liam Fox resigned on Friday. If David Cameron had waited

:30:36.:30:40.

until Tuesday to get the report, that would have been desperate.

:30:40.:30:45.

he jump, or was he pushed? I think he had difficulty answering some of

:30:46.:30:48.

the question from Gus O'Donnell, the Cabinet Secretary, so he

:30:48.:30:54.

thought he had better go before the report comes out. Now, the

:30:54.:30:59.

countdown to the amazing two weeks we face in the eurozone crisis. The

:30:59.:31:03.

European summit this weekend, Angela Merkel and President Sarkozy,

:31:03.:31:07.

things are so bad that President Sarkozy flew to Germany while his

:31:07.:31:12.

wife as giving birth. We are now told, just before we came on air,

:31:12.:31:15.

that there will not be an agreement this weekend. They will try to get

:31:16.:31:20.

one next week, and we have this cut-off point that Mr Obama and Mr

:31:20.:31:24.

Cameron and Mr Osborne have made. It has to be done and dusted by the

:31:24.:31:34.
:31:34.:31:36.

The sort of agreement that people have now decided is necessary is a

:31:36.:31:39.

two trillion euro agreement. There is absolutely no way that the

:31:39.:31:43.

Germans will accept that. It's all very well Sarkozy going around and

:31:43.:31:48.

saying we want leadership in Europe. What he meends is he wants German -

:31:49.:31:53.

- means is he wants German money. It's not available. Stepping back,

:31:53.:31:59.

what we have here is a whole lot of different-shaped economies at

:31:59.:32:02.

different stages of development, rammed together in a currency which

:32:02.:32:06.

is unsuitable for most and none of the problems will go away. That is

:32:06.:32:12.

why you were against it I remember meeting the then President of

:32:12.:32:17.

Bundesbank and we said what would be the ideal monetary unit, France

:32:17.:32:22.

and Germany and the Benelux countries. Let's say you were both

:32:22.:32:26.

right and not walk down on memory lane, but get to now. I put it to

:32:26.:32:31.

you, Diane, that if there is - there has to be an agreement on

:32:31.:32:36.

Greece defaulting and there has to be the bail out fund of two

:32:36.:32:40.

trailion and recapitalisation of the banks and if there is not an

:32:40.:32:44.

agreement to present to the G20 there will be a market meltdown. We

:32:45.:32:49.

are heading for a major financial crash in the next three weeks.

:32:49.:32:54.

will be very problematic. I'm not quite as convinced on that. I think

:32:54.:32:58.

the focus is on the recapitalisation on the banks and

:32:58.:33:03.

the number is around 350 billion euros. A lot of money, but not the

:33:03.:33:09.

two trillion. I think the default - The French and Germans are divided

:33:09.:33:13.

on that. The French want the Europeans to bail out the banks.

:33:13.:33:21.

It's more achievable. I think a 60% haircut of the bond holders losing

:33:21.:33:25.

their money is pretty written into market expectations now. Watch this

:33:25.:33:34.

space. It's going to be an interest -- interesting couple of weeks. Now

:33:34.:33:42.

when Diane told us she was quitting our band for the dizzy heights of

:33:42.:33:47.

Labour's crack health team, we feared the worst imagine John and

:33:47.:33:52.

Paul without Linda, or Mick and Keith without Bianca. You get some

:33:52.:33:58.

idea the scale of our loss, but you know what they say, if the cheque

:33:58.:34:02.

has enough zeros there will be a car for 10.30 on Thursday night,

:34:02.:34:07.

tell it to pick me up outside the Ritz. With Diane back and the stone

:34:07.:34:15.

roasts back, we decided to put reunions in this week's spotlight.

:34:15.:34:22.

-- Stone Roses back, we decided to put reunions in this week's

:34:22.:34:28.

spotlight. News the world has been waiting for, the Stone Roasts are

:34:28.:34:32.

reuniting, because they want to be adored. I want to shake up the

:34:32.:34:40.

world and we are going to play two big gigs at heat on park. -- Heton

:34:40.:34:46.

Park and then take it around the world. There will be a bumper bonus

:34:46.:34:53.

for the Manchester scallies as Steps are proving with their album.

:34:53.:34:57.

As boy band Westlife finally do us all a favour and call it a day, it

:34:57.:35:00.

can't be long before they are tempted back by the prospect of one

:35:00.:35:07.

final pay day. Is it really wise to get the old gang back together? Is

:35:07.:35:17.

it the money or just the bore dem that makes people -- bordem that

:35:17.:35:24.

tempts people to make the effort? AdamAnt is with us. Welcome. The

:35:24.:35:29.

reruinions in the rock world, am I too cynical to say it's about the

:35:29.:35:35.

money? I think that is certainly true, but they have to bring home

:35:35.:35:39.

the bacon and they have families and once you are in the charts and

:35:39.:35:43.

naive and you sign the contracts and when it is all over and you

:35:43.:35:47.

have paid everyone off you realise you actually don't have that much

:35:47.:35:51.

money in the bank, so I see no reason why they shouldn't get bag

:35:51.:35:54.

together and go back to the audience that is still with them if

:35:54.:35:58.

they make good records. You may know how to do it better to your

:35:58.:36:01.

advantage second time around, because you have learnt a few

:36:01.:36:07.

tricks? Well, yeah. Sometimes it takes 20 years. You do. You are

:36:07.:36:10.

dealing with a situation where you are signing contracts as thick as a

:36:10.:36:15.

phone book and there's one line saying, "If you don't show this to

:36:15.:36:19.

a lawyer within seven days it's illegal." And you don't, because

:36:19.:36:24.

your drummer wants a drum kit and that is ten albums, in my case, so

:36:24.:36:28.

your whole life is under control, so you are dealing with something

:36:28.:36:34.

that tanned amount to a very old Hollywood system. Some reunions and

:36:34.:36:41.

comebacks seem to be bigger than the original. Take That seem to be

:36:41.:36:46.

bigger? Yeah, I think - I saw the show at Wembley and it was amazing.

:36:46.:36:51.

It was like an Olympic event. They really pulled it off, but I think

:36:51.:36:57.

people foreget that bands like the Stone Roses and my band, you start

:36:57.:37:01.

off as four or five guys that are mates, carrying equipment around

:37:02.:37:05.

and travelling up and down the country and you become good mates

:37:05.:37:09.

and then suddenly you are worth a lot of money to a lot of people.

:37:10.:37:18.

You are a big earner and then the work is too hard and you don't hear

:37:18.:37:21.

the word no, no don't do that, because that tour, the management

:37:21.:37:26.

basically are not going to say no to that amount of money. Then with

:37:26.:37:29.

that exhaustion, cracks begin to appear and other influences come

:37:29.:37:33.

into the group and you start being not so friendly. That can be the

:37:33.:37:38.

start of it. Tkph you have come back, but not as -- You've come

:37:38.:37:43.

back, but not as Adam and theants. That's my baby and I have the

:37:43.:37:49.

rights to that and it may happen in the future. I decided to go solo

:37:50.:37:54.

after the friendship wasn't there. We were all exhausted. I decided

:37:54.:37:59.

that I didn't want to continue. I wanted to go solo, but it's a hard

:37:59.:38:07.

thing. I do enjoy it, but there is a difference between doing a solo

:38:07.:38:14.

album and doing Adam and the Ants. Political reunions or comebacks,

:38:14.:38:20.

they are more rare in politics than the music business, aren't they?

:38:20.:38:28.

Yes. I mean I suppose Gordon Brown brought back Alastair Campbell and

:38:28.:38:35.

Peter Mandelson. That's true. Mandelson had a couple of them.

:38:35.:38:41.

or three. Too many for my opinion. One was one too many. It's not

:38:41.:38:46.

quite the same as a reunion. I've noticed that this evening I spent

:38:46.:38:50.

the evening with my university weekends and the weekend with my

:38:50.:38:55.

school friends and I made a speech about you, and I never had a

:38:55.:39:00.

reunion with my political friends. With the old Cabinet colleagues?

:39:00.:39:04.

Some of them I feel quite warmly about and when I see them, it's

:39:04.:39:09.

great, but nobody suggest let's go eat for a evening. Is that because

:39:09.:39:14.

there was a lot of bad blood between you? Probably. You had -

:39:14.:39:21.

It's like a band the way it fell apart. You had a comeback, you lost

:39:21.:39:25.

your seat and then got back in for Kensington and Chelsea. Does that

:39:25.:39:30.

count? Did you go back and join with old friends the way a band

:39:30.:39:34.

would? There was a tiny reunion. I was a big ally of Francis Maude. He

:39:34.:39:38.

had lost his seat in the election before I did, so he had been out

:39:38.:39:43.

since 1992. I was out in 1997 so in 2000 we were working together for

:39:43.:39:50.

the first time in eight years. is your comeback in public health.

:39:50.:39:57.

It's impressive. I had a mini reunion tonight, because I went to

:39:57.:40:06.

speak at Camberwell and peck hall - - Peckham. I went there and I first

:40:06.:40:10.

worked with Harriet Harman and a whole host of others at the Old

:40:10.:40:17.

National Council for Civil Liberties. When you do one in the

:40:17.:40:22.

music business, you are under some kind of pressure from the fans to

:40:22.:40:26.

recycle all the old songs, are you not? They don't want to hear the

:40:26.:40:32.

new ones so much? I've been on tour over the summer and during the

:40:32.:40:35.

winter, but I put on the show I would like to see from a band I

:40:35.:40:40.

grew up with. If I went to see Roxy Music or David Bowie or anybody I

:40:40.:40:44.

would want to hear the hits. I think it's unfair not to give them

:40:44.:40:49.

that, but among that, you drop in one or two new things, but if I

:40:49.:40:52.

wasn't proud of the songs I wrote I wouldn't put them out in the first

:40:52.:40:56.

place, so I see no reason. I love them. I'm just trying to get them

:40:56.:41:05.

right. It's a challenge. Each militates against reruinions in

:41:05.:41:15.
:41:15.:41:15.

British poll tiblgz. You can have rock -- politics. You have rock

:41:15.:41:21.

stars where they fill stadia now. It's not true in America or France

:41:21.:41:27.

or Germany. Lord howl was in the Government today and he was in

:41:27.:41:34.

Edward Heath's Government. David Young and Michael Heseltine, both

:41:34.:41:38.

have little positions with the Government and they are people who

:41:38.:41:42.

again are right back. You mean there is a chance for you to come

:41:42.:41:48.

back? I'm a bit too young. Since you are naming all of the names on

:41:48.:41:53.

the periphery of the Government, I think we'll have a quiz. Stick with

:41:53.:42:03.
:42:03.:42:04.

us, because they're useless. Now, you know these are strange times

:42:04.:42:07.

when the French head of state actually fathers a legitimate child.

:42:07.:42:10.

And, tonight President Sarkozy and his wife, Carla, have revealed the

:42:10.:42:13.

name of their new baby daughter - Giulia. Let's hope she grows up to

:42:13.:42:16.

be like her brand new name, because according to Deed Poll, there's

:42:16.:42:20.

been a huge surge in the number of people changing their birth name.

:42:20.:42:23.

So, as we're joined tonight by a certain Mr Adam Ant, nee Stuart

:42:23.:42:26.

Goddard, what better time could there be for a Political Name

:42:26.:42:36.
:42:36.:42:41.

Change Quiz? What is the Chancellor's real full name? Gideon

:42:41.:42:51.

Osborne. No. You are right on both, but there is another name. Oliver.

:42:51.:43:01.
:43:01.:43:04.

What is the London mayor Boris Johnson's real name? Colin.!

:43:04.:43:10.

Alexander What is former Tory A list candidate Nancy Mogg's real

:43:10.:43:20.
:43:20.:43:25.

name? Rees-Mogg. Well done. Adam, thank you for joining us. I told

:43:25.:43:29.

you they were useless. That's your lot for tonight folks. We're all

:43:29.:43:32.

off to Berkeley Square, because it's Zumba night at Annabel's! And,

:43:32.:43:34.

in her exalted role as Grand Poobah of the Headline-dodging Shadow

:43:34.:43:37.

Public Health Team, Diane's promised to show Michael the latest

:43:37.:43:40.

way of keeping himself fit on the dance floor. Squats and lunges are

:43:40.:43:43.

merely optional. In the meantime, and with Adam here in the studio,

:43:43.:43:46.