27/10/2011 This Week

Tonight on This Week, it's the final countdown for the eurozone.

enough to end the crisis? One of the euro's biggest fans,

broadcaster and writer Will Hutton, watches the clock.

I think this is a watershed moment. There'll come a time when one day

Britain will want to join the euro. Prime Minister David Cameron

couldn't count on his MPs' support this week. But how much damage has

been caused by opening old European wounds?

The Mirror's Kevin Maguire has been counting the cost in the trenches.

Cameron ordered his mutinous troops over the top, but did he shoot

himself in the foot? Counting the cost of causing

offence from pictures of Gaddafi to Ricky Gervais on Twitter. Does

society have every right to be getting so touchy? Top broadcaster

Richard Bacon is not looking to hurt anybody's feelings. And I must

warn viewers that what you are about to see won't offend anybody.

Were leaving together, but it's still farewell.

Evening, all. Welcome to This Week. OK, which politician described tax

avoidance as a particularly ugly note in these straightened times?

The Government crack down hard claimed it was utterly offensive in

a recession and promised to do the maximum possible to stop it in

future. I'll give you a clue - he's a Lib Dem ballroom dancer. Some say

he's also the Business Secretary, though not all are convinced by the

evidence. He's been forced to make an

embarrassing apology. Well,ish, for not paying thousands of pounds owed

in VAT. He was fined �500 after claiming his non-payment was an

oversight. Still not got it? Let's two to St Paul's, because mongst

the protestors, we'll see Vince Cable being pilloried as another

member of the so-called ferrel elite. To think he was once the

darling of the Liberal Democrat dance floor. Actually, I'm told

there's no point in going live to St Paul's because Tristram ah Bella

and the other s are gone home for the night. Speaking of the

unacceptable capitalism, I'm joined by two men who always claim their

dodgy shirt expenses against tax - the Al Capone and Ken Dodd of late-

night political chat. You can work out which is which,. Actually, the

one in the black shirt is Al Capone. Michael Portillo and Alan Johnson.

The alis a clue. Definitely! -- Al is a clue. I've struggled to

find a moment that wasn't Europe and I failed. I was at a

British/Spanish conference at the weekend, a lovely gathering of

friends. Even in the gathering, one of the Spanish said at one point,

we are getting fed up with you British, and in the end, we are

going to chuck you out of the European Union. I thought about

this that day probably when Nicolas Sarkozy said in a moment of anger

of David Cameron that he wished he'd shut up and not criticise the

euro and make any suggestions about how they should manage their

affairs. We are going to discuss this further shortly, but I think

we've reach add new low in the relations between the eurozone and

Britain. I hope you responded by saying, why don't you shut up and

do something about your 40% youth unemployment? He said I'll have

another glass of Riocca! anticipated what President Sarkozy

said. The whole problem is caused by having too many countries in the

euro and you might think the solution was to remove the

countries, but they regard that as unthinkable. Indeed. Your moment,

Alan? Sunday's election in Tunisia. The Jasmine Revolution. That was

the start of the Arab Spring and it was a free and fair election, the

talk of around 90% turnout, moderate Islamic Party are forming

a coalition. How sure are we? are not quite sure, are we?

first step is to have free and fair elections and all the international

monitors said that went well. There had to be an equal number of male

and females, so they're very different to some of the countries

around them in terms of women's rights. It's an example that others,

I hope, will follow, and I think it was a very encouraging thing.

our best hope isn't it. Mongst the north Africans countries, that is

the one that's most identifiably European. The all-night eurozone

talks are over. The euro will live to fight another day for now. Have

the leaders done enough? What's the future got in store? Will Silvio

Berlusconi be able to resist the bunga nights? Will Nicolas Sarkozy

refrain from his Sarky comments and can Angela stay off that second

portion of cheese? All big vital questions of her time. Naturally,

we have asked a keen euro supporter for his take of where now for

There may not be celebratory parties all over Europe and Italy

this weekend, but for the time being, the crisis is averted. Last

night, Europe's leaders agreed to half Greece's debts, to find one

trillion euro for a bail out found and to recapitalise Europe ease

banks. Already the markets are finding it a credible solution.

It's a biggish bazooka, to coin a phrase, but there's more to do.

Europe needs more growth and reform and there's a treaty on the way.

It's already clear, especially from the remarks that Chancellor Angela

Merkel made to the German Parliament before the summit began

that the Europeans and the Germans in particular will do whatever it

takes to make the euro work. I think Britain will radio the day

that for the first time in modern history, we were bystanders as our

continent Europe reshaped itself. Because we weren't members of the

euro, our views were irrelevant. Our fate was decided by others.

Europe is on the way to becoming fully two tier. On the inside,

there'll be a group of countries acting in unison, less a superstate,

more a political self-help club. On the outside, a bunch of

countries relegated to the sidelines, like our entries to the

Eurovision Kong contest. # Making your mind up... #

In if years ahead, we'll want to join the euro. Few people

understand how chronically economically weak we are, volatile

inflation to come, high unemployment, low economic growth.

But 020, we'll be banging at the inner door asking to be allowed to

join. By 2020.

So was I wrong about the euro originally? I certainly didn't see

how its design flaws would interact with the financial meltdown to

create this order of crisis. But then, not one, not one of the

crowing Euro-Sceptics touring the TV studios this week did either.

As it stands, Britain is in a corner with very few options and

the one economic block that could save us is sailing off in the

opposite direction. I am only the person in the media who thinks that

joining the euro could be part of our salvation. That itself is

pretty alarming! Will Hutton in the bar in Battersea

Bridge Road. Glad I got that out, and some people will be wondering

what you were drinking. Let's come on to that in a moment.

Let me come to the deal first of all. I mean, there are so many

details of this deal that we don't know about. You are taking a lot of

trust? Well, I start with the commitment

that Angela Merkel got from her Parliament before she flew to

Brussels. She, under the German constitute of court ruling, has no

get Parliamentary approval before she can move and she got it.

That was for not a penny more than the 00 billion of which 20 has been

spent -- 400 billion of which 200 Han spent? The unity across the

political spectrum in Germany and behind her business and Trade Union

movement in Germany, the Germans decided they've got to actually do

what is needed to keep the euro going. They've not actually, if

they won't allow the European Central Bank to buy bonds? Hold on

a minute... They wouldn't allow any more money to go into the bail out,

so dodgy financial leverage will be used now? I think what's happening

here is that there is going to be up to a trillion euro of credit

facilities by EU states which a Government guaranteed. It only

actually turns into a taxpayer bill for anyone in the eurozone if

losses are cit tallised. The big thing about it is, it permits the

European Central Bank to buy bonds -- crystallised. It's those

combinations, together with the write-offs of the Greek debt,

together with the recapitalisation of European banks that actually is

an impress you have achievement. The markets don't lie. They jumped

up by 5% in France and ours in Britain went up by 3%. They often

get it wrong won one day as you might be the first to tell us --

wrong on one day. We've moved away from the crisis of six weeks ago.

You are a trusting chap. I am. it comes to Europe. Not America

maybe but Europe. The end of the world is no longer

nigh? The big picture is that you have a lot of economies within the

Single Currency who should not be there who cannot cope with being in

the euro and who are diverging, not converging, with the other

economies. So, what is now being said, is that

the solution to this is fiscal union. Fiscal union is a phrase

that's easily uttered, but what it means is that you have to behave as

though you are a country, which means transferring vast amounts of

wealth to Germany to the countries in Europe -- from Germany. I don't

rule the conclusion that the Germans have decided that the euro

must be saved in the sense that all countries presently within the euro

must be kept within the euro. I mean, what Sarkozy has said is

precisely that, you know, a country like Greece shouldn't have been

there in the first place. And the logic of that is that, actually,

the way to save the euro is to shed some of the countries that cannot

cope with it, because otherwise you have this endless bill. So what has

been don yesterday still doesn't address that question. ALL SPEAK AT

ONCE The reason the trillion euros might

get used up is that the countries that are struggling are going to go

on struggling and you cannot see how, within the euro, without being

able to De value Spain, Italy, Greece or Ireland or Portugal, are

going to grow. They're good points and, in all these arguments, about

weighing up the balance. First of all, I think De valuation, although

an important tool, is a lesser effective tool than it used to be,

for modern economies who trade in knowledge, goods and services. We

are seeing that ourselves in the UK. Big De valuation. But only a much

lets robust response than one might have expected -- De valuation. Ic

take your point. There are economies that are very different,

but the open question is, they're going to be different in a world of

floating exchange rates and different in a world of semi fixed

exchange rates and dufpbt in a Single Currency area. -- different.

Europe went through the Single Currency, a semi fixed exchange

rate but it didn't work. But what's the answer to that? I think what we

are underestimating is that it's been an absolute fight to the death

in the 17 eurozone countries. The determination to actually hold this

currency that they've created has been intensified by what they've

gone through and actually to make the kinds of structural reform as

necessary to make their countries live together. That's an important

moment. Greek debt will still be 120% of GDP even after this. Yes.

It's a huge amount. Alan, Ed Balls was quite lukewarm about this deal

and Alistair Darling, we had on the Daily Politics today, he raised his

famous eyebrows about it all. Labour sounding sceptical? He said

they shouldn't leave Brussels until they get a deal. Given that it's

still fresh news, I think it is as good as it could possibly be at

this stage. Let them rumage around and see what is there. I disagree

with Will's central premise that we don't carry the influence because

we are outside the euro. I would rather be in a two speed Europe

than to be in the euro at the moment and it's a bit stretching it

a bit to say that not being in the euro when there's a crisis there is

somethousand against our best interests. We are riebl to stay out.

-- right to stay out. A better argument is about the European

Union itself. I am pro-European Union and you almost got the

impression this week in Parliament that it's now wrong to be anti-EU

and you don't hear many voices speaking up for the European Union.

I would rather do that. You can speak up for the European Union and

You implied the economy was a mess and in a bad way. We can't deny

that, but you said because of that we needed to get into the euro,

where everything would be fine. It's not sustainable to say we have

to join to be as good as Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece?

Well, firstly, the eurozone will get up off its knees and I'm not

talking about this happening in the next two or three years, but ten or

15 years. What the position we are going to find ourselves in, is

exactly the same position that the French and Spanish and ittalyands

found themselves into the 70's, 80's and 90's, and that is that our

monetary policy will be that we can set interest rates independently of

what the European Central Bank or the US Federal Reserve will be for

the birds. The markets will punish us if the policy is more lax than

the zone. We'll find that we'll have to shadow what they're they

are doing in Brussels, Paris and Berlin and Rome and Madrid. We may

not like that, but that will be the reality. We will have, volatile

inflation. We have a huge debt overhang and the consequence of QE

will be volatile inflation in the middle of the decade. Growth I

think will carry on being low. Our social contract will fray at the

edges and suddenly it will look - this eurozone, in maybe seven years,

it will be growing at a moderate rate and it will look much better

than now. That's if it works. That comes back to you being a chap of

faith. I am. You should be outside St Paul's. Indeed, you would be on

your own at this stage. This idea that people didn't warn that the

eurozone would end up in the nacker's yard and a complete mess,

you were told again and again that the zone was not an optimal

currency area, that you couldn't spachcocock together. You are both

right, but the point I'm making is that the particular reason why it

got itself into rubble, which is it didn't have a European monetary

fund of more than one trillion euro to bail out the awful mix-up

between sovereign and bank debt. No-one anticipated the financial

meltdown that led to this mix-up of the debt crisis, which required the

European monetary fund. I have to give Michael the final word. It's

that limited point. Michael, splutter away. I would just say

that in the mod erp world there is no such thing as deferred

gratification -- modern world there is no such thing as deferred

gratification. They should have taken three or four countries and

built it out. Then had standards so when others met the standards they

could join. What they did, they were very greedy and said, "We'll

have 17 countries." That was a crazey thing, because there was no

way that Italy, Ireland, Greece, Portugal would survive in that

situation. I don't think the film is ridiculous at all, because

although I believe in being outside the euro, I do think Britain is a

vulnerable little country with a little currency and I don't know

what will happen in the future, but I'm absolutely with Alan in saying

I think it's perverse we would have been better off being there for the

last few years. I didn't say that. I'm saying in the future. I want to

talk about the future. I want you to come back in ten years' time and

want you to wave your UK euro notes around and we'll look stupid and

you will be triumphant. If we are still around, I will be tkphriet --

delighted to do that. Will Hutton there is a tent and a bottle of

Blue Nun waiting for you. Don't you say a word, it is European. Now, it

may be too late to save the banks from a haircut but it's no too late

to stick with us, because Richard Bacon will talk about the art of

taking offence. For those of you who need little encouragement,

there is a whole world on the interwebsite. You can follow us on

twitter or join the half a dozen people who claim already to like us

on the Facebook. Now, spare a thought for our poor Prime Minister,

David Cameron. He's been so busy trying to gatecrash EU summits this

week that he forgot to do something really, really important back home.

No, not crush the little rebellion over Europe from his backbenches -

you know, the worst for nearly 20 years - no, it completely slipped

his mind to set the video for his favourite TV programme! So with him

in mind, and back by no popular demand, here's The Mirror's Kevin

Maguire in series two of Downturn Prepare to move up to the line.

don't like the sound of that. The truth is, the war's not going too

well here on the Continent. Everyone says they are fighting a

common enemy, the massed armies of debt, but over there in the far

trenches, the bankers and speculators are shelling the

Germans, who are shooting at the French and everyone is sniping at

the Italians, who are fighting among themselves and it's bunga

bunga. Field Marshal Lord Cameron offered to send the force and his

heir, George Osborne of Downturn. Surprisingly, Jonny Foreigner

didn't want our help. Apparently President Sarkozy had had enough of

the posterg and Hectoring and the know-it-all ways. You spoke not

just for France, but for Britain as well. It's been a dreadful week for

Lord Cameron. He suffered the most serious Conservative revolt since

Major nearly copped it in the battle of Maastricht back in 1993.

The Tory right flank want him to rush over to grab back powers while

they are still weak. It's not the right time at this moment to launch

legislation that includes an in-out referendum. When your neighbours'

house is on fire, your first impulse should be to help them to

put out the flames, not least to stop the flames reaching your own

house. Field Marshal Lord Cameron has adopted the curious tactic for

an avowed sewer row sceptic of urging the Europeans to unnight

under a single command. The Euro- rebels accuse him of retreating and

hiding in the bunker. Get out. Sorry, Sir. If Britain's future as

an independent country is not a prop matter for a referendum, then

I have absolutely to idea what it. The tentacles of the EU intrude

into more and more areas of our national life. Over the last week,

we have had many and many of e- mails and phone calls and letters

from constituents urging me to support this motion and the only

communication I've had urging me to vote against it was a telephone

call from the whips' office. He won the immediate battle in the House,

and in my view, had little choice but to send his troops over the top

on three blasts of the wheef whips's whistle. -- Chief Whip's

whistle. Shush. In here, well, that's poor Captain Clegg. Remember

him? He used to be the footman, other wise known as Dead Meat. He's

been cowering in the dugout for months. In the past few days, he

has found his fighting spirit. Government is not going to launch

some smash and grab raid on Brussels on its own, which would be

condemned to failure. One day we have the Prime Minister saying, yes,

to repatriation and 24 hours later, the Deputy Prime Minister says no.

Mr Speaker, on this crucial question who speaks for the

Government? Red Ed stirring tensions between them Tories

upstairs and those Liberal Democrats deblow stairs, upset Lord

Cameron. He was snapping and using language unusually you only hear in

the skullary. What we have is very plain - there is a group of people

on this side of the House who want some rebalancing and a group of

people who want a lot of rebalancing and a complete mug who

wants no rebalancing at all. "I hope this letter finds you well." I

wonder how things are back at home, back at Downturn and how my Lord is

coping without me? Maguire. Maguire. Where the devil are you? I bet he

hasn't even got dressed yet. I hear they have got a new valet. Mr

Clarke, a veteran of the war. He's always saying things that upset Mrs

May. The idea that you mandatory sentence for certain types of

offence to young offenders and children, to juveniles, is a bit of

a leap for the British system. There's trouble back home. Them

upstairs have come up with a ludicrous idea of sacking us

without compensation. If you want a revolution, bring it on! But, I

wonder if they had anybody in mind? I'm embarrassed by the fact that an

honest mistake wasn't spotted. However, I make it absolutely clear

that I did not avoid paying tax. suppose it's good to know that in

these times of austerity a politician can earn more than �190

on top of their salary. -- �190,000 on top of their salary. We'll know

if the counter-attack is successful and Germany's Commander-in-Chief,

Angela Merkel, isn't wrong when she says it's the biggest crisis since

the war and Field Marshal Lord Cameron needs to quell the European

revolt, or he will be weakened. Whatever happens, one thing is for

certain - the poor bloody infantry will be in the firing line.

# All together now, in no man's land... # Kevin Maguire, who played

every part in that drama there. Something when the BBC cuts kick in

you'll see a lot more of in BBC drama. We are joined by the former

Liberal Democrat adviser, Miranda Green. Welcome. Very good to see

you here tonight. I have to start with you, Michael, Tory split on

Europe. Who would have thank you it? It must have been day sha view

for you all over again? -- desha view for you all over again? Iity

there has been maybe ten years when this hasn't dominated, but it's

back. The euro sceptics are strengthened by the last general

election and they are numerous within the party. Most of the

ministers in the Government, on the Conservative side, share the

sentiments of the people on the back benches. The euro sceptics

cannot bear the idea there will be this enormous European crisis and

possibly meltdown and that no benefits accrues to Britain from it.

They want to get powers back at the very least. Some of them are at the

extreme and see this as the opportunity to leave the EU. Their

strength is enormous and it sends a terrific signal to Europe of

British attitudes. I think it is going to be very serious, because

there clearly will be a new treaty, one for reform and it seems to be

unthinkable that there wouldn't be a referendum in this country.

just interrupt you, the Government's already said tonight

that it doesn't think - it doesn't know, but it shows you the way they

are thinking and what they are trying to do, it doesn't think the

changes will be big enough to justify a treaty change referendum.

That is the argument that has been used in the past. That will

infuriate Parliamentarians. I mean What is it like to be caught in the

Tory crossfire in this coalition? It's a strange position for the

Liberal Democrats actually because when the coalition was formed,

everyone treated the Liberal Democrat party as if they were the

sort of teenagers yourbgs know, being invited to the adult table

for the first time -- you know. Actually, in a way, you know,

you've got the Conservative Party struggling to behave like a party

of Government. I mean, this is protest, this is a serious party

management problem that David Cameron has got. It's not going to

go away. They don't seem to be good at party

management? Indeed. You can say what you like about whether the

Liberal Democrats are in tune with everything, but they're unite and

calm and Nick Clegg is holding firm. I would suggest that it's double-

edged for Labour. On the one hand Tory split always good, split on

Europe with what we are worried about, jobs and growth and living

standards, on the other hand, Euro- Scepticism is now the default

position of this country? I don't think it's a problem for us. It's

going to get worse for Cameron. Danny Alexander put it well when he

said that Cameron's caught between a rhetoric of opposition and the

reality of Government. In Michael's time, the one thung they didn't

have was all the quotes from cast iron guarantees that David Cameron

has hanging over his head -- the one thing. The Lisbon Treaty was

endorsed and he said we won't treat this like unfinished business. The

backbenchers, they're probably the only centre right party that takes

this swivel-eyed view. But they're entitled to ask, when are you going

to start this. Ed Miliband's question, what do you want to

repatriate and when do you want to start, what's the process? Very

difficult for Cameron. It can only get worse because I can't see him

rushing... This has the prospect, for the reason Michael gave that,

the Germans, we knew almost everything that was going to come

out of Brussels last night, the thing that surprised me was that

the Germans want to move more quickly towards a fiscal union and

to put the structures in place that will do so. It will enef thatibly

mean some treaty changing -- treaty -- inevitably mean some treaty

changes. This interesting thing that's happened over the last year

is that Cameron and Hague have sort of shifted slightly towards a less

Euro-Sceptic point. Yes, that's what the backbenchers think? Yes,

whereas the senti of gravity of the Tory benches has shifted the other

way -- the centre of gravity. think that's a misinterpretation. I

don't think that Cameron, Hague and Osborne are any less sceptical than

they used to be. They have to be more pragmatic surely because

they're dealing with day-to-day international things. They have

decided that they want the euro to succeed and even more

extraordinarily, they think greater integration in Europe is the way

for the euro to succeed. These are all things that before the Tories

didn't want to see at all. But, what is the difference between now

and 17 years ago is that 17 years ago, we had a Government that was

comprised of Major, Clarke and Heseltine, all euro fanatics but a

euro sceptical party. The Prime Minister has to say things like,

I'm going to recuperate powers when there is a renegotiation and I

certainly cannot see how he's going to be able to do that. At some

point, the rock is going to meet a hard place because there is going

to be a renegotiation. I woke up this morning to hear people saying

that the changes that are going to come about in the European Union

are going to be game-changing and I believe that to be the case. They

are going to go for major reform and no British Government will be

able to argue that these are peripheral little changes that

don't merit a referendum. Ed Balls, who I interviewed last Friday, did

say that if the eurozone moves in the direction that Mrs Merkel and

Mr Sarkozy accept that it needs to move on, this does change Britain's

relationship with Europe. We can't just stand still and continue as

business as usual. We'll have to look at what this means if they're

not on the inner core. I think it's absolutely the case that if there

is a major, fundamental constitutional change in Europe,

there would need to be a referendum. But, you know, the proposition that

we were debating on Monday was a kind of, there was a hocky cokey in

out or shake it all about and when that comes, when that fundamental

change comes, it's going to be very difficult not to have a referendum

-- hokey-cokey. My point is that Labour's position is not

sustainable as the status quo because the status quo is not

sustainable in the new Europe we are heading towards? I think that's

probably the case but it De pends what the changes are. If it had

been the constitutional change that every party pledged a referendum on

in the end, if that comes, that's the promise we have to keep to.

Nick Clegg used this word in the coalition agreem, he doesn't use

the word reTateration, but he uses rebalancing. Gree. Nick Clegg's

spent a lot of time in Brussels and is not an opponent of EU reform. I

think the point here is that what we are discussing is a very serious

moment, as Michael said, potentially e pop-making moment.

The debate in the Commons on Monday was on a motion that was

fundamentally unserious. The point I wanted to make with the final

moment of the week was that the eurozone's been through a searing

experience. We might think from a British perspective, this will make

them less keen on the whole thing because they can see it as a rush

Iy failure, that's not their mentality at all, they believe all

the more they are going to go in for this and all the less can they

understand our position, not only of being on the sidelines of it all

but wanting to take some powers back. There's no similar that thi

for our position whatsoever so there will be a crunch coming aid

head. We have not even had time to talk about Vince Cable's tax

returns. Heavens, what a disappointment! Thought you would

be disappointed with that. Dear reader, you have missed a good

opportunity to shut up. We are sick of you criticising us and telling

us what to do. When Mr Sarkozy slapped down our very own call me

Dave earlier this week, for a brief moment, we thought the pocket

rocket President had been reading the viewers section on this prom on

the website. It got us thinking about how easy it is also to upset

people, for example with pictures of Colonel Gaddafi's final moments

widely used across TV news, including on this programme, which

some people didn't like, and they told us so. We decided to put

taking offence into this week's # Do you really want to hurt me

# Do you really want to make me cry... # Solving a debt crisis is

tough enough without Europe's leaders mocking each other. Asked

if Silvio Berlusconi could be trusted, journalists' giggles

greeted the Sarkozy and Merkel smirk with great offence. They were

keen to say that no offence was meant. People are using the word

demand and humiliation, but there's no humiliation involved. Half David

Cameron's backbenchers snubbed him. There is no surprise that the

former PR man claimed his feelings were not hurt. There is no, on my

part, no bad blood or bitterness. Ricky Gervais was forced to

apologise for Tweeting a word that he didn't think was offensive but

others were outraged by. The media shows moments of Gaddafi's final

moments. David add ten borough knows how to draw the line, even if

nature, in all its glory, can be brutish, nasty and short. Hurries

back to his mate, but now she seems to have lost her enthusiasm.

Remind me of Diane and Michael leaving the programme every night.

Richard Bacon joins us. Welcome back to the programme. Thank you.

You are a broadcaster. Are you always conscious of avoiding

causing offence? Sometimes I like to walk into offence, causing it

can be healthy for a programme. But at the moment, I work on Radio 5

Live for the BBC, you work for the BBC, it's quite a paranoid and

nervous organisation, isn't it? The question they often ask themselves

now is not is what we've done offensive and can it be De fended,

what they ask themselves is, will this be in the Daily Mail, will the

Daily Mail make hey with this. do we care? You see, I think if

something is in the paper but can be De fended, so what, it's healthy.

But actually, the BBC's scared of being in the papers, so I'm

constantly trying to second guess what is and what isn't offensive.

There is an unhealthy obsession with what is in the newspapers.

Does this mean in this climate that you have act tufly censored

yourself not to cause offence? -- actively? Yes, I do it quite a lot.

I find myself thinking, could this be picked up by a newspaper because,

if it is, I'll then be in trouble. I think it's partly to do with the

old Ross Brand affair, I think we are still living in the aftermath

of that. Exactly, yes. Do you think also that maybe in this climate

today, that people are more inclined to take offence, that they

like washing their outrage in public? I think do you know what

you can do now because of Twitter and I'm a big De fender of it and I

know you are as well, but the problem with it is that if you say

this programme has one viewer who didn't like the programme and they

can wait for you to make a misstep and then on Twitter you can whip up

a bit of a storm and you can gather supporters and get them to complain

and before you know it, 20 or 30 people have complained to the BBC

and the BBC will get very nervous. While Twitter has made the world

more democratic, it's given some people a louder voice than they

deserve to have. Do people have the right not to be offended in a

democracy? No, they do not. It's really important that we should

maintain the right to give offence. You are absolutely right. Twitter

is simply the latest itration of an age old problem. When I was a

Member of Parliament, quite a long time ago by now, Members of

Parliament would come up to you and say, we can't bear the strain of

this issue, we've had 500 letters and I would say yes, but you have

70,000 constituents who've not written to you and people get so

worried about relatively small minorities and you are quite right

that self-appointed minorities now can dictate the public taste.

That's what it is though. Five complaints, you know, but we've two

million listeners, you know, it's OK. Broadcasters decided to treat

the final moments of Gaddafi differently from how we had treated

other people being killed, just stick to Libya for the moment.

There's lots of footage that's not been shown of other people who were

killed in Libya, but we decided to treat Gaddafi differently. Was that

right or wrong? I thought it was wrong. I didn't

like that. I thought, you know, filming what was virtually a

lynching. The funny thing about Libya is, you never saw what NATO

were doing in Libya, that was really strange that there was no

coverage of that. It was dangerous to have a cram ra underneath it

though. We saw it in Iraq and we saw the attacks in the Balkans --

camera. We didn't see them there. But I think there's different

levels to this. I actually feel quite sympathetic to people who

write to me because I've used an inappropriate word, particularly

people who have strong religious beliefs and if you use a term that

you feel is all right down the pub but not on TV. I think when you are

broadcasting, you have to recognise there are people out there who get

offended quite fairly small things. Are we too soft in the West. People

of Libya didn't take that view. They wanted to see that he was

dead?! Sfrpblgts yes, they did and actually Alan I think you are wrong

about this. Here is what is changed about news. Even's got a video

camera in their pocket because they are now built into telephones. I

was on the radio when the Gaddafi story broke and had all the News

Channels on my monitors, Al-Jazeera rbgz Sky, beeb and they were all

rolling with it and showing the footage that had been instantly

uploaded to the Internet. So that disturbing footage of his body

being flown on to the back of a flat bed truck was everywhere and

the whole world talked about it. And to not show it, one channel

like the BBC not to have shown it would have been strange.

But it's not that long ago when racial slurs, those who were on the

receiving end of them, had to bite their bottom lip or, about their

sexuality. That's changed now, you don't have to put up with that?

No, you don't. That's the up side to political correctness. When

people condemn political correctness, I find myself De

fending it because in a way, it's a form of institutionalised

politeness and those horrible words have gone because of political

correctness. It's just OK to show someone being killed. You've not

shown shown him being killed though, have you. How can you not show that

footage when everybody else is? well if everybody everyone else is

showing it. Always a good point to end on, disagreement. That's your

lot for tonight, folks, but not for us, oh, no. We've booked a cab and

Charles Clarke is waiting outfront, the metre running as usual. Our

destination tonight, St Paul's Cathedral of course. We hear there