24/05/2012 This Week


24/05/2012

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Tonight, as the sun finally comes out, This Week takes a sunny stroll

:00:09.:00:16.

around the Westminster garden. As the IMF struggles to spot green

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shoots of recovery, things aren't looking too rosy for the UK economy.

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But if jobs don't grow on trees, would employers be tempted to hire

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more if they could fire more? Britain's top advertising executive,

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Sir Martin Sorrell, wants to prune the red tape. We want to see more

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flexibility in the UK market. It is an example we see all around the

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world. It means faster growth and more jobs for the UK.

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With Greece continuing to wilt under the harsh glare of the

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bailout conditions, will the country be forced to uproot itself

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from the eurozone? The Guardian's Nick Watt is sewing

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the political seeds. Some people, including our Prime Minister,

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believe the grass is always greener in an English country garden. But

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the deputy groundsman differed and said, "Don't be beastly to the

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Europeans." And it's not all rosy in the

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welfare garden, as the Government considers cutting benefits to

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addicts. Is the stick really better than the carrot?

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Tabloid favourite and former addict Kerry Katona speaks from experience.

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Nobody could help me other than myself and that is what I did when

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I hit rock bottom. Here comes the sun.

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Here comes the This Week, I say. It's all right, doo doo doo doo doo

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It's hot. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week,

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a political Shangri-La deep in the heart of Westminster-on-Thames,

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just up the river from Staines. Boyakasha!!

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Although it seems we have some rather laid-back competition these

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days, specifically from the coalition chillax zone, previously

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known as Number 10 Downing Street. For those who can't be bothered

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keeping up with such things, let me enlighten you. According to a new

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book, when it comes to the work- life balance issue, our Prime

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Minister isn't just "very relaxed" about it, he's "positively

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horizontal" which means he's at least got something in common with

:02:30.:02:40.
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the economy the rest of us live in. But at least we can all rest easy

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in our bean bags, safe in the knowledge that the ship of state is

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in the capable hands of the idle rich.

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Yes, at Call-me-DVD-Dave's gaffe it's weekend karaoke, snooker,

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tennis against a machine known as "the Clegger" all rounded-off with

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a decent Sunday lunch with three or four glasses of the old Blue Nun

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special cuvee, the PM's very own "chillaxative" so to speak.

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What need is there of red boxes when you're close to finishing

:03:03.:03:05.

level four of Fruit Ninja on your iPad?

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Speaking of those who avoid heavy lifting at all costs, I'm joined on

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the sofa tonight by two of Westminster's most proficient

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muttering idiots. The Ed Balls and Lucille Ball of

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late-night political chat. I speak, of course, of

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#manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo

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:03:34.:03:41.

choo" Portillo. Your moment of the week? Mr aL-Megrahi died this week.

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He was released by a United Kingdom Government that wanted to count out

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to Colonel Gaddafi and by a Scottish Government that thought he

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had been wrongly convicted. He may indeed have been wrongly convicted.

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It is not for politicians to decide to let people out... And there was

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an appeal pending? There was an appeal pending. The idea that he

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was being let out on humanitarian grounds was absurd. You can't let

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out people because they might die - we are all dying! You are a cheery

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lad tonight(!) Has the heat gone to the brain? It was a sorry day for

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British politics. Politicians tried to convince us to give up our civil

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liberties to fight terrorism. When we get a convicted terrorist behind

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bars we let him go. Alan, your moment? It is today's net migration

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statistics. 166,000 and 2 52,000. 166,000 was the net migration

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figures in the last year of the Labour Government. That open-door

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policy that we are supposed to have had. It come down from the previous

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two years. 2 52,000 is the latest statistic. That is the net figure?

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The problem for David Cameron - I'm not criticising him for the figures

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- but he said he would bring that down to the tens of thousands and

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it's mission impossible for him. There is one in Number Ten ought to

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be thinking about how to get out of this. It is going to get worse.

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have had the Minister on the Daily Politics the several times. He

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always says, "Oh no, we will still do it." We will have him on again.

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I doubt it very much. Now would you believe it, there's

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been a bit of name-calling in Westminster this week! Adrian

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Beecroft, the man tasked with overhauling Britain's employment

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laws, was accused by Vince the Cable of coming up with a "bonkers"

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proposal to make firing employees much easier, whilst Sir Adrian

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retorted that the Business Secretary was nothing more than "a

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socialist." What a ridiculous suggestion. Vince

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used to be a Glasgow Labour councillor.

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Oh. I see what he means. Anyway, there's only one way to settle

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this: Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! But before things get too messy,

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we've asked mad-man ad-man, Martin Sorrell, to give us his take of the

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I'm CEO of WPPP. We have 158,000 in 108 countries. The real challenge

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around growth and obviously jobs because with growth comes jobs. The

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Government has to put together a comprehensive and co-hee sieve plan

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-- cohesive plan. How is the Beecroft plan affecting

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flexibility? If it is easy to reduce it, it is easier to increase

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it. We get greater flexibility as a result. So people will put it

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crudely saying it enables people to fire more easily and the more

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positive side of it would be it will enable people to high more --

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hire more more easily. It is an attempt to get more jobs and growth,

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which is the central issue the Government faces. The economy in

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the world that was easiest to do that in was the United States.

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There you have much more flexibility in hiring and firing,

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in hiring and reducing labour forces. As a result, we can

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literally turn on a sixpence to do that. The American attitude to

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labour flexibility is much more constructed. One thing I would say

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that we have been affected by is the so-called TUPE legislation.

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That means that if we win a piece of business, the Agency that loses

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it, where people in that agency have been 24/7 or soley employed on

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that account, they have employment rights to transfer with the

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business to us as the winning agency. If we lost the piece of

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business, the winning agency would have to take those people on from

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our agency. That is inherently a little bit strange. On balance, I

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think Beecroft was in the right direction. What he was doing was

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trying to seek greater mobility, particularly - and this is very

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:08:44.:08:53.

important - for smaller companies. Martin Sorrell. What an intro.

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glad you didn't cut your wrists listening to them! Are you saying

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if it was easier to fire people you would hire more people? If there

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was more flexibility in the market, the answer is yes. I think we saw

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that in America post-Lehman, particularly in the first, the

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second half of 2009. We didn't react as quickly as possibly we

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should have done to the first half of 2009 and the tough economic

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conditions. In America, the attitude obviously - look, from an

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ethical point of view, one doesn't like unemployment and the

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adjustment. The Americans, there was a film starring George Clooney

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which tried to describe what it is like in America. There's the same

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psychological impact and emotional impact. The Americans get over it

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much more quickly. Mobility is built into the structure of the

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economy, less homeownership, and they move much more flexibly.

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Literally, I said on the film, they can turn on a sixpence. Within six

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months, we were fully adjusted in the United States. It is still

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taking us three to four years on time to adjust in the European

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economy. Are the people that you employ here in Britain, that you

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would like to fire, but can't? is less so to be fair a British

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issue. It is more a French, Italian and Spanish issue. Let me give you

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an example. In France one of our CFOs stole 25,000 euros from us. We

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took - he admitted the crime. He hired a lawyer after he had been

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dismissed, took us to court and won in court. You can't run - the judge

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said it wasn't a bad crime. We asked the judge what constitutes a

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good crime, or a bad crime? So three years after a lot of struggle

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in the courts we won on appeal. That labour market inflexibility is

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a serious issue. We in the West have to understand there has been a

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shift in the balance of power economically. We have to decide

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whether that is something we are willing to tolerate or not. If we

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are not prepared to tolerate it, we have to change the structure to

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make it easier for companies to adjust their structure. One final

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point: If the British economy is flat, there are parts of it that

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are growing and parts that are declining. We have to get into the

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habit of trying to shift resources, whether it be labour or capital or

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whatever, into those parts that are growing. The final, final point is

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that small, what Beecroft was on about, if you read the report - and

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I have read sections of it - was about helping small companies. They

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are the engines of growth. It is not so much the big companies. The

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SMEs are the companies that you have to stimulate to grow. They

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wanted to get rid of the red tape. There is a crisis of social

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democracy across Europe when it comes to unemployment? We have 16

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million people unemployed in the eurozone. Young people can't get

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jobs. 52% unemployed, 18-year-olds in Spain. We treat labour,

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particularly in Europe, as highly- regulated and highly-taxed, so

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people don't get jobs? We are different to the rest of Europe.

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I'm with Comrade Cable on this. When I was doing Vince's job, when

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I was doing his job, I met people like Martin. I spent half my time

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with businesses telling me to deregulate and half my time with

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businesses telling me to regulate because they felt there was a

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competitive advantage. On this particular issue, you are right,

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unemployment is a big issue. The thought that after all that we have

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been through with the banking crisis, the problem in our economy,

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which is a lack of demand, that the answer is to fire at will. First of

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all, I want to know why a venture capitalist, who is a major donor to

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the Conservative Party is drawing up their policys? It is like us

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asking Bob Crow to do a report for us on the railways! That is bizarre.

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Secondly, if Cameron has decided to bury this, he is right. What

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Cameron and Osborne were trying to do - they were the ones who

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proposed every worker had the right to request flexible working. We had

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introduced it for parents of children up to age six and disabled

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children up to 18. I remember an article by George Osborne, "We are

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now the progressive party." It militated against that. Cable's

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right. I have not met a single - I have met business people like

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Martin, who is a great advert for British business, saying we need a

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flexible labour market - and we do. The Beecroft proposal - this is the

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big issue. The Beecroft proposal to fire anyone, which he himself says

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could mean some employers firing What would do you about the TUPE

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stuff? It's different stuff. You say about advertising. It's part of

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the Beecroft... TUPE was introduced specifically to prebgt those groups

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of workers like cleaners in organisations who were farmed out

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to a private company. These are the most defenceless vulnerable workers

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in the market. You get some kind of protection. Let me bring Michael in.

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I agreed with Martin who I thought made his case in a very moderate

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way. He didn't advocate the firing at will. But a couple of things

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that he did raise, I think it is extraordinary that these preserve

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rights apply in the case of the advertising agencies, that seems

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bizarre. You quoted a French case about Tribunals but the British

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cases of Tribunals seem to be absolutely bad enough, which is

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that an employee who has been dismissed can tie up the employer

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in years of litigation with immense legal costs, unbelievably

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disproportionate settlements at the end and it seems that there is an

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area where you might say look, if you are going to get rid of an

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employee it's going to cost you some money, but at least you get a

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guarantee if you are you are willing to pay that it doesn't take

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to you a Tribunal and that gets tieed up with lawyers for years.

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What is wrong with no-fault dismissal. It's too crude and it's

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too heartless. What change would you make? I think the changes that

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I make is, I probably at the end of the day in terms of of retkupbdancy

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payments be less fixed, liberal and give as a result more flexibility

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in the structure. The problem is this, if you are thinking about the

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allocation of resources between say western Europe, the United States,

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Asia, Latin America, you are naturally drawn to those higher

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tkproet -- growth where ares where the risk-reward ratio is more

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balanced. I can't find a client that it really wants to increase

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their capacity in western Europe. UK is slightly different, I take

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Alan's point. It is more flexible. Our labour taxes are not nearly as

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high. When we - we pay 1.2 billion dollars a year in social taxes, 800

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million by the company. That's still low by French and German

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standards. The highest per head is France, actually at 45,000. The low

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ses China at 4,000 which gives you an idea of where it's going to go.

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It's going to even out over time. The UK is better, you are right,

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the consultation processes put a rigidity in the process that makes

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it difficult and you are naturally concerned about the risks and the

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risks of incrossing capacity. I can't find a CEO or CMO who doesn't

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want to expand on the other hand in Asia and Latin America and the

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phaoes. If we want to stimulate growth we have to change the

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mindset a bit. Coming back, one of the things you didn't include in

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the film, I was asked what is the one thing the government can do?

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It's scandalous, youth unemployment is scandalous because if the

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general rate in unemployment is 8- 9%, it's double in terms of youth.

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What we have to do is steupl lit - I was -- stimulate. We should

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subsidise youth employment. National insurance... That's what I

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mentioned. That's what Lagarde was suggesting. It may be right, it may

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be wrong to make the supply of labour more efficient, the real

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reason this economy is not grow something nothing to do with supply,

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there's no demand. That's the real problem. Not Beecroft. That's the

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real problem. I entirely agree. However, within whatever situation

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you have got employers are going to be more or less willing to take

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people on and I perfectly understand that you would be

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frightened of taking people on if you thought that if toud let them

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go in six months, let's say a year, they were going to tie you

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newspaper a a Tribunal. That's where I agree with Vince Cable. He

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said that what we need is a plan. What we got from the coalition

:18:03.:18:06.

government is addressing the rate of increase in spending but we

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haven't got a consistent plan that lifts people's eyes and Hearts and

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eyes to the horizon, rather than looking at their boots. We need a

:18:16.:18:20.

plan. We haven't got it. Thank you very much.

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It's late in the day. Michael and Alan may be our own double dip

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recession but this is no time for faint Hearts or plan Bs. We are

:18:31.:18:36.

sticking with plan A and discussing addiction with Kerry Katona. For

:18:36.:18:40.

those of whou can't get enough of This Week you can get your fix on

:18:40.:18:45.

the Twitter or the interweb and new at a new rip-off price the brand

:18:45.:18:51.

new the Fleecebook. Olympic fever is owe pigsly here --

:18:51.:18:55.

officially here. The flame has been touring all over British soil this

:18:55.:18:58.

week and the time has come to throw all the rules about BBC

:18:58.:19:02.

impartiality to the wind and make it career on this show we are

:19:02.:19:08.

backing Spain for gold. Have you been messing around with the - have

:19:08.:19:13.

you changed the autocue! Never mind, I apologise. We called in our own

:19:13.:19:20.

own sporting hero. The Surrey under-16 egg and spoon champion of

:19:20.:19:30.
:19:30.:19:30.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds

:19:30.:20:10.

1983, tpheubg Watt for his roundup You know, it's quite an effort

:20:10.:20:16.

keeping alive the flame. It feels sometimes like you are going around

:20:16.:20:20.

in circles. David Cameron felt a bit like that this week when he

:20:20.:20:26.

went to three sum mitts in just one week. We need decisive plans to

:20:26.:20:30.

help get the European economies moving. If we are not going to keep

:20:30.:20:35.

coming back to meetings like this we need to deal with longer term

:20:35.:20:43.

issues at the heart of running a skaesful -- successful single

:20:43.:20:51.

currency. His deputy, Nick Clegg, who keeps alive the flame of

:20:51.:20:55.

European Union sympathied with those leaders when he said we are

:20:55.:21:02.

all in it together and we all have to help the euro. No one should

:21:02.:21:09.

labour under the false hope that somehow Greece leaving the eurozone

:21:09.:21:19.
:21:19.:21:30.

can provide instant relief to the Now that the torch has arrived, the

:21:30.:21:34.

eyes of the world oren Britain. Yes, the IMF pitched up in town this

:21:34.:21:43.

week for our annual economic health check. When I think back myself of

:21:43.:21:48.

May 2010 when the UK deficit was at 11% and I try to imagine what the

:21:48.:21:53.

situation would be like today if no such fiscal consolidation programme

:21:53.:22:02.

had been decided. I shiver. George glowed when Christine gave him that

:22:02.:22:07.

vote of confidence. But Ed Balls said that the Queen of the IMF had

:22:07.:22:09.

awarded the Chancellor a wooden spoon after warning that Britain

:22:09.:22:13.

may have to draw up a plan B involving tax cuts to revive the

:22:13.:22:17.

economy. We have a recession made in Downing

:22:17.:22:21.

Street, the IMF has been saying for months it's not working, change

:22:21.:22:24.

course. Now is the time to change course.

:22:24.:22:28.

Since packing away his Bullingdon tales, David Cameron has thought of

:22:28.:22:35.

himself as a gentleman prime Minister who relaxes by beating the

:22:35.:22:41.

skaf clegger-tennis machine and playing the odd game of Fruit Ninja

:22:41.:22:46.

on his iPad. But he broke a Cardinal rule this week. He allowed

:22:46.:22:52.

a swot from a minor Oxford college to get under his skin. If we

:22:52.:23:02.
:23:02.:23:03.

listened to the muttering idiot sitting opposite me... The prime

:23:03.:23:10.

Minister will please wrau the word "it kwrot" -- idiot. In fact, there

:23:10.:23:15.

was a grating prime Minister's questions all round.

:23:15.:23:19.

Can the prime Minister tell us what impression he thinks it gives about

:23:19.:23:22.

his government that he commissions advice from a multimillionaire who

:23:22.:23:27.

recommends making it easier to sack people on low pay, at the same time

:23:27.:23:32.

as giving people like him tens of thousands of pounds in a

:23:32.:23:35.

millionaires tax cut? I tell whau we would do on this side of the

:23:35.:23:40.

House. We commission a report, we accept the bits we agree with,

:23:40.:23:44.

reject the bits we don't agree with. He takes instructions from his

:23:44.:23:54.
:23:54.:24:02.

trade union pay Masters and cannot Yes, there was some extraordinary

:24:02.:24:06.

competitors on the track, people we hadn't heard of until a few weeks

:24:06.:24:10.

ago and one goody-two-shoes who thought the Olympics would be yet

:24:11.:24:16.

another step on his glorious ride to the top. Yes, our Olympics

:24:16.:24:20.

Minister Jeremy Hunt probably watched with care aeuz his former

:24:20.:24:24.

special advisor Adam Smith gave evidence to the Leveson Inquiry. Up

:24:24.:24:29.

too was the supersmooth Fred Michel, the lobbyist whose e-mails with

:24:29.:24:36.

Adam Smith proved perhaps a little too cosy. Is this the case, you

:24:36.:24:40.

believe that actually this is a communication with the Secretary of

:24:40.:24:45.

State through the mouth of Mr Smith? I believe that whatever Mr

:24:45.:24:55.
:24:55.:24:56.

Smith tells me represents the view of the Secretary of State, yeah.

:24:56.:25:01.

Yes, the end is nearly in sight, yes! Thank you, thank you.

:25:01.:25:09.

Congratulations. What a great win. Oh, no!

:25:09.:25:19.
:25:19.:25:25.

The flame's got out. Quick! And a big thanks for Nick's fellow

:25:25.:25:31.

owe Olympicens. We are joined by pheur and tka Green -- pheur and

:25:31.:25:38.

tka Green. -- Miranda. It's a terrible background horror. Alexis

:25:38.:25:42.

Tsipras should be a natural for your sofa with his no tie approach

:25:42.:25:45.

to showing that he is a new breed of politician who is not going to

:25:45.:25:50.

take lessons from the rest of Europe on how Greece should run

:25:50.:25:54.

itself. It's very worrying. Then you can do without the money.

:25:54.:25:58.

It's a relent last backdrop and the failure to resolve it one way or

:25:58.:26:01.

the other is a drag on every economy in the continent and even

:26:01.:26:05.

Mr Obama is worried that it's a drag on the ufrplt S economy.

:26:05.:26:10.

not just the same. Things are getting worse all the time. Thure

:26:10.:26:15.

is falling now, mark he is are -- markets are being hit across Europe.

:26:15.:26:18.

The likelihood of Greece going out increases every day. The fear of a

:26:18.:26:26.

run on the banks is onmipresent and everybody is talking nonsense and

:26:26.:26:30.

double Dutch. Christine Lagarde is kind of saying on the one hand it's

:26:30.:26:33.

very good that we embarked on the austerity programme. On the other

:26:33.:26:36.

hand we have to do something about growth. The prime Minister who

:26:36.:26:40.

believes in austerity is advocating growth for everybody else. He is

:26:40.:26:44.

telling the Germans they should be issuing euro bonds. That is a load

:26:44.:26:48.

of nonsense, that really is... never going to happen. That's the

:26:48.:26:54.

way to perdition in a hurry. It is getting worse, the nations of

:26:54.:26:57.

Europe are deeply divided and lots of them are saying different things

:26:57.:27:04.

on different days of the week. Mrs Merkel bluffing when it comes

:27:04.:27:07.

to Greek exit or do you think the Germans are prepared to let them

:27:07.:27:17.

go? What's going on is a bit of, sort of prop prop -- propoganda - I

:27:17.:27:21.

watched Michael's programme do you want the euro or the drachma, it

:27:21.:27:24.

didn't whether they were unemployed or millionaires, they wanted the

:27:24.:27:27.

euro. There is a bit of positioning. They had this conference in the

:27:27.:27:31.

week, do you remember, European Union Ministers, about contingency

:27:31.:27:36.

plans for gross coming out of -- Greece coming out of the euro. A

:27:36.:27:41.

lot of that is about getting the message to the Greek people...

:27:41.:27:46.

use an overused word this week it would be bonkers not to have

:27:46.:27:50.

contingency plans. I would have think would you have been so public

:27:50.:27:53.

about announcing you are preparing contingency plans unless you wanted

:27:53.:27:58.

to get a message across. Germans are at the end of their

:27:58.:28:03.

tether. They've had it with Greece. When Mr Clegg says no rarbgsal

:28:03.:28:08.

person -- rational person can want Greece to leave, what does he mean?

:28:08.:28:12.

Is he saying you are bonkers if you want Greece to leave? Whether

:28:12.:28:22.
:28:22.:28:22.

Greece should leave or stay is a fine judgment and neither argument

:28:22.:28:25.

for or against is bonkers. I think what he was trying to do was a

:28:25.:28:28.

Christine Lagarde, you know, you played the clip of her saying she

:28:28.:28:30.

shivers if she thinks what would have happened out an austerity

:28:30.:28:33.

programme. What Clegg was trying to say was anyone who thinks for their

:28:33.:28:36.

own political reasons and because of their own political

:28:36.:28:40.

preoccupations the demise of the sure a good thing that they should

:28:40.:28:44.

cheer... It was Greece, Greece can leave the euro and the euro can

:28:44.:28:47.

survive. Sure. That's a different issue. Sure, but what he was trying

:28:47.:28:53.

to say was that, as Michael pointed out, this toelt disaster on our --

:28:53.:28:56.

total disaster with our largest trading partner is really, really

:28:56.:29:00.

bad for the UK economy. It's quite right that people have been

:29:00.:29:03.

pointing out today that problems in our own construction sector, as you

:29:03.:29:09.

have been saying, a lot to do with demand here, but nevertheless,

:29:09.:29:18.

these cataclysmic events will have If you have the Prime Minister

:29:18.:29:25.

saying it is time the eurozone should make up or break up, when

:29:25.:29:30.

you have Mr Clegg saying no rational personal can talk about

:29:30.:29:34.

break-up, I would call that friction? I don't think that is

:29:34.:29:39.

right. The entire coalition is in favour of the euro surviving with

:29:39.:29:49.

all its members. I find that a curious position. You think Mr

:29:49.:29:54.

Cameron still thinks that all the stops should be pulled out to keep

:29:54.:29:58.

Greece in the eurozone? That is not what he says. That is what he is

:29:58.:30:03.

saying. When did he say that? said they have to make up or break-

:30:03.:30:07.

up. That is a description of the situation. You disagree with that.

:30:07.:30:13.

That is what he is saying. If one member falls out the eurozone,

:30:13.:30:18.

there is a break in the eurozone. It is the exposure of UK banks to

:30:18.:30:23.

Greece. Yeah. UK banks are not exposed to Greece, they are not. It

:30:23.:30:29.

is a small amount, about six billion. Very small. They are much

:30:29.:30:33.

more exposed to Spain. I understand people being frightened about

:30:33.:30:39.

Greece coming out. If people in Portugal and Greece start demanding

:30:39.:30:42.

they take their money out of the banks, we will be in terrible

:30:42.:30:46.

trouble. It seems to me the Greeks have a much better chance of being

:30:47.:30:50.

out and the euro has a better chance of the Greeks being out. If

:30:50.:30:53.

only we could get ourselfs from here to there. Nobody know what is

:30:53.:31:01.

the knock on cost also be in terms of GDP hit. The country that has a

:31:01.:31:08.

lot to worry about is France. It's got huge exposure to the Club Med

:31:08.:31:12.

companies. Let's move back to the domestic front and Leveson. How

:31:12.:31:17.

damaging is it for the Prime Minister that he removes Vince

:31:17.:31:22.

Cable from the BSkyB process because he's clearly biased against

:31:22.:31:27.

the takeover and replaces him with Mr Hunt who is clearly biased in

:31:27.:31:34.

favour of the takeover? It is pretty bad. I think this constant

:31:34.:31:36.

drip-drip from Leveson is very serious in terms of not just the

:31:36.:31:42.

Prime Minister's judgment, but also there is this question of character

:31:42.:31:47.

which is fundamental in politics. I think those who dismiss this whole

:31:47.:31:51.

Leveson Inquiry as a SW1 Westminster story are missing the

:31:51.:31:56.

point. A lot of people say to me, it is you, you are obsessed with it.

:31:56.:32:01.

Of course. There is a recession on. I don't dismiss it. I don't think

:32:01.:32:11.
:32:11.:32:12.

this is a killer fact. I think any minister is entitled to express his

:32:12.:32:17.

opinion whilst he is in Cabinet. Once Jeremy Hunt had been appointed

:32:17.:32:25.

after he had expressed that opinion, did he behave in a quasi-judicial

:32:25.:32:30.

way? The special adviser didn't. That is the difficulty. The special

:32:30.:32:35.

adviser was not acting in that way. It is inconceivable that a special

:32:35.:32:42.

adviser, who is appointed almost as your friend - they are... Your

:32:42.:32:45.

extra limb. Your special adviser can be doing all of that without

:32:45.:32:49.

you being aware of it? Smith seems to have got away quite lightly

:32:49.:32:53.

today. He is back on tomorrow. there is a second stage of it. This

:32:53.:32:58.

is where Hunt... It is drip-drip rather than the killer facts so far.

:32:58.:33:03.

Will Mr Hunt survive, "yes" or "no"? He will have to be moved from

:33:03.:33:05.

his present position because Leveson will report and he can't

:33:05.:33:10.

report to him. Will he? He should not survive. Cameron should be more

:33:10.:33:17.

ruthless with his friends. No, he won't survive. Sorry Mr Hunt. Mr

:33:17.:33:21.

Cameron's temper. Downing Street says it shows he is human. Does it?

:33:21.:33:27.

Is it a problem? I think it's unwise of him to let go like that.

:33:27.:33:37.
:33:37.:33:37.

I think he has a bit of a flair for emanyty, particularly at PMQs --

:33:38.:33:44.

emnity, particularly at PMQs. Look at the way he insulted Nadine Doris.

:33:44.:33:51.

She is a particular issue. We can't see it when we do PMQs live every

:33:51.:34:01.

Wednesday. I am told that Ed Balls is a constant niggle? For Blair,

:34:01.:34:05.

Blair had John Bercow. On the frontbench, they are always there

:34:05.:34:10.

to try and put you off. They are always doing things like that.

:34:10.:34:15.

Perhaps this passes as light- hearted wit, but it doesn't come

:34:15.:34:25.
:34:25.:34:26.

over well to the public. David Cameron's lack of statesmanship in

:34:26.:34:30.

those circumstances doesn't go down well with the public. He has a

:34:30.:34:33.

talent for scorn. The benches behind him love it. All right.

:34:34.:34:38.

Let's go on to the real question of the week. Is it true you have

:34:38.:34:44.

ambitions to be London Mayor? You don't? No. But don't rule

:34:44.:34:49.

anything out. My allegiance is to Hull. You will - you have to stand

:34:49.:34:53.

down as MP before the next election to run for Mayor? I would think so.

:34:53.:34:57.

You thinking about it? No. I thought about it last time. I had

:34:57.:35:03.

just been elected. We told you there had been a Johnson running?

:35:03.:35:07.

You did. You are tempted? No, you don't rule anything out. I don't

:35:08.:35:14.

know what the situation will be in 2016. You heard it here first.

:35:14.:35:24.
:35:24.:35:33.

LAUGHTER Very interesting. Now, we know how hard it is to kick

:35:33.:35:36.

a bad habit here on This Week. Whether it's jacking-up on Alan

:35:36.:35:38.

Johnson, or mainlining Michael Portillo, our conversational drugs

:35:38.:35:41.

of choice are not big, or clever. But with the Work and Pensions

:35:41.:35:44.

Secretary giving Jobcentres the power to cut welfare benefits to

:35:44.:35:46.

alcoholics and drug addicts in the hope they'll enroll on treatment

:35:46.:35:49.

programmes, we have to wonder who's been smoking the whacky-backy and

:35:49.:35:52.

whether we need to stage an intervention on Iain Duncan Smith's

:35:52.:35:55.

behalf? That's why we've decided to put addiction in this week's

:35:55.:36:05.
:36:05.:36:05.

Spotlight. The Festival season is about to

:36:05.:36:11.

kick-off and figures show party people are turning to austerity

:36:11.:36:15.

drugs such as horse tranquillisers to make the muddy fields more

:36:15.:36:19.

manageable. Politicians have been gathering advice from former users

:36:19.:36:23.

on how best to tackle Britain's addiction problem. For me what's

:36:23.:36:28.

more significant is the way that we socially regard the condition of

:36:28.:36:33.

addiction. It is something that I consider to be an illness and

:36:33.:36:38.

therefore more a health matter than a criminal or judicial matter.

:36:38.:36:42.

how can Government convince alcoholics and drug addicts finally

:36:42.:36:46.

to kick the habit? Iain Duncan Smith thinks the welfare system

:36:46.:36:51.

could play a role and taking away benefits may do the trick. Is it

:36:51.:36:55.

realistic to think that those with the dependency problem will respond

:36:55.:36:58.

to the stick rather than the carrot?

:36:58.:37:03.

The doctor said to me, for depression go to the gym, exercise.

:37:04.:37:09.

My exercise was a few lines of cocaine and a kebab! I wonder if

:37:09.:37:17.

Kerrie has her doubts. Kerrie joins us now. Welcome.

:37:18.:37:22.

you. Tell me, when it comes, given what you have been through, when it

:37:22.:37:26.

comes to drugs, alcohol, and so on, do you ever get the impression that

:37:26.:37:32.

politicians don't have a clue? feel from my personal experience

:37:32.:37:37.

that politicians in a certain way look down at addiction and

:37:37.:37:40.

alcoholism. It's something they kind of want to hide or brush under

:37:40.:37:44.

the carpet rather thanksgiving out a helping hand. No-one wants to

:37:44.:37:49.

deal with the fact that people have problems. And what do you think is

:37:49.:37:53.

the best strategy? Is it carrot or stick? I definitely think you need

:37:53.:37:58.

to give them a helping hand. I don't think by telling them - you

:37:58.:38:02.

can't receive your benefits, it is either your benefits or drugs. That

:38:02.:38:05.

won't work. Addiction is an addiction. People don't wake up

:38:05.:38:10.

going, "Today, I want to be a drug addict." These things happen for a

:38:10.:38:16.

reason. There is a story behind it. I think it should be encouraged by

:38:16.:38:23.

helping them and encouraging them to go to rehab, and working away at

:38:23.:38:28.

how to get them off the addiction. These people who take drugs, as I

:38:28.:38:33.

did, I had low self-esteem, I was in four walls, cocaine was my only

:38:33.:38:39.

friend. I was embarrassed by being on drugs. I had no-one else to turn

:38:40.:38:48.

to. Cocaine was my only friend. think saying if you carry on like

:38:48.:38:53.

this, we will take away your benefits, that would encourage you

:38:54.:38:57.

to get treatment? I think, if someone said that to me and I was

:38:57.:39:01.

in a situation of going through bankruptcy, I had four kids to feed

:39:02.:39:06.

as well, being dictated to like that, as addiction, it can't be

:39:06.:39:13.

right, OK, I will stop. If that was the case, everyone would stop. This

:39:13.:39:18.

can encourage crime. Some parents have got nothing, they have

:39:18.:39:23.

children to feed - prostitution, theft. It can go crazy. You can see

:39:24.:39:28.

why people get upset, you are getting welfare benefits, the rest

:39:28.:39:33.

the tax papers are paying and a lot of it goes on drugs. I don't quite

:39:34.:39:39.

see withdrawing these benefits means you are waking up to your

:39:39.:39:44.

circumstances? Kerrie wants the Government to offer help. -- Kerry

:39:44.:39:50.

wants the Government to offer help. If people are refusing the basic

:39:50.:39:54.

things to help themselves, why should we go on subsidising them?

:39:54.:39:57.

What is the treatment you will be offering them? The treatments that

:39:57.:40:01.

are available that the Government does offer. It says here is

:40:01.:40:04.

rehabilitation, here are courses. If you refuse to take them, we

:40:04.:40:08.

won't go on paying your benefit. This point about if they don't get

:40:08.:40:13.

the benefit, they will go stealing. I don't think benefits we paid,

:40:13.:40:18.

they won't pay for your cocaine habit. I understand all that. There

:40:18.:40:23.

is a story... Benefits are not designed to pay for the cocaine

:40:23.:40:27.

habit either. I know. A lot of the people on benefits, it is not they

:40:28.:40:32.

have decided to be an addict, they are under pressure because of loss

:40:32.:40:35.

of jobs... This is adding more pressure to go on the treatment.

:40:35.:40:39.

These arguments seem to go round in circles through the generations

:40:39.:40:42.

when it comes to a political response to drug addiction and

:40:42.:40:46.

treatment. I wouldn't discount anything Iain Duncan Smith said out

:40:46.:40:50.

of hand. I think he genuinely cares... He thinks about these

:40:50.:40:56.

things. He does. My experience was, the most effective scheme I saw for

:40:56.:41:03.

drug addicts - it is a different issue about alcoholism - was we

:41:03.:41:06.

started to prescribe, the Government gave them heroin,

:41:06.:41:11.

reduced the amounts - they had to agree to come on this programme -

:41:11.:41:15.

reduced the amounts gradually, encompass that with a lot of help

:41:15.:41:18.

and support, had an employer at the end of it that would give them a

:41:18.:41:23.

job and it had amazing results. A bad headline, Government

:41:23.:41:27.

prescribing drugs, but it has to have that all-round approach.

:41:27.:41:33.

Michael's - it is crude to say that you just take the benefit away. The

:41:33.:41:39.

next step is what? The next step is they could be in prison. They will

:41:39.:41:45.

get more drugs than ever in prison! And they are probably cheaper. Did

:41:45.:41:50.

it take a while for your treatment to work? What treatment did work?

:41:50.:41:57.

spent - I must have spent �100,000 going to rehab, or doing a course.

:41:57.:42:02.

These were private clinics which most people wouldn't have the money

:42:02.:42:10.

for? That didn't work. I went to the Priory, to Arizona, I came out

:42:10.:42:13.

a stone heavier with prescription medication, which was masking my

:42:13.:42:19.

problem. The only thing that worked for me was I went to bootcamp in

:42:19.:42:23.

2010 which was military-based exercise for six hours a day,

:42:24.:42:29.

eating healthily for two weeks and I was in bankruptcy, I was getting

:42:29.:42:33.

divorced, I lost my house, I had a cocaine addiction, I was drinking,

:42:33.:42:38.

I almost lost my four children. Those two weeks of pure exercise

:42:38.:42:48.
:42:48.:42:48.

for me with blood, sweat and tears, at the end of them two weeks, the

:42:48.:42:54.

endorphines was the first natural high I... Is everything good now?

:42:54.:42:59.

have to get up and do the school run! You don't have to deal with

:42:59.:43:04.

these two every week. I'm glad I'm going. Thank you for being with us.

:43:04.:43:10.

That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us because it's Social

:43:10.:43:12.

Mobility Night at Annabel's and Nick Clegg's demonstrated his

:43:12.:43:15.

noblesse oblige, by sticking us all on the paying guest-list. Kerry's

:43:15.:43:18.

agreed to be Michael's plus-one and Michael's agreed to let the

:43:18.:43:22.

bouncers frisk him - twice. But we leave tonight with a man

:43:22.:43:25.

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