25/04/2013 This Week


25/04/2013

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Tonight, join This Week for a political marathon. As the final

:00:17.:00:20.

stragglers cross the Westminster finishing line, we bring up the

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rear. Defeating terrorism may be a marathon rather than a sprint, but

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are we ignoring the long-distance dangers? Author and former Islamist

:00:28.:00:37.

Maajid Nawaz thinks we're not keeping up with the radicals.

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question is, what is it about certain young Muslim men, born and

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raised in their own societies, that makes them want to block their

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fellow citizens? I will try to tell you why.

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The Chancellor just manages to avoid running into a triple dip

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recession, but it's not exactly a personal best for the British

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economy. At least broadcaster Matthew Wright has something left

:00:57.:01:06.

in his tank. A positive result of sorts for the Chancellor, but there

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is still a long road ahead. And as the London Marathon shows

:01:11.:01:15.

all that is good about Britain, are we too ready to believe our

:01:15.:01:18.

mythical track record? German comedy ambassador, Henning Wehn,

:01:18.:01:28.
:01:28.:01:31.

puts our performance in perspective. Now, let's debunk stereotypes, but

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not before I have had a sip of my favourite tipple.

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On your marks, get set... Hang on, where's the Blue Nun water station?

:01:43.:01:48.

Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. And welcome to what future

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historians will surely call the Boy George boom. All 0.3% of it! Strong

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stuff, indeed. Provided, of course, it's not revised downwards. His

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mother must be very proud. Yet, who are we to talk down Britain, I hear

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you cry, to sneer at a growth rate weaker than a bottle of Blue Nun-

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Lite, when evidence of a booming nation firing on one cylinder lies

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all around us, whether it be the boom in food banks, the boom in

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measles, or the boom in Abu Qatada's legal aid bill, which must

:02:19.:02:24.

have financed many a villa on Tuscan hilltops? Yes, it may not be

:02:24.:02:27.

the stimulus package we'd hoped for, but economic beggars often can't be

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choosers. And if encouraging figures released this week are to

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be believed, the Boy George boom has even reached the economic

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wastelands of the West Midlands, where a frankly terrifying

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:02:47.:02:47.

statistic reveals that 20% of homes are now in possession of a hot tub.

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As macro-economists the world over are often heard to say, who needs a

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thriving manufacturing base when you can have a back rub and a

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bubble bath in your own back garden? Speaking of suburban

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swingers, happy to throw their conversational car keys into the

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This Week fruit bowl, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men who

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police often find hiding on Justin Bieber's tour bus, the stun gun and

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stunned silence of late night political chat. I speak, of course,

:03:13.:03:17.

of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo

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:03:27.:03:32.

choo" Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? Wander

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Murdoch's was sent to prison apparently for trying to get her

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father out of a residential care home where she thought he was being

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mistreated. In any case, she was imprisoned by something called the

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Court of Protection, without ever appearing in court and having her

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chance to argue her case. So it came as a surprise to her to say

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the least that she was carted off to jail, where she also says she

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was attacked by other inmates. The point is that I thought it was

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fundamental that everyone had his or her day in court. Remember, Abu

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Qatada has had about 20. It is a remarkable story when you think it

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is happening in Britain, too. Office of National Statistics

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analysed the censors. You need to get out more often! For the first

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time in a century home ownership has gone down. There are all sorts

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of reasons behind that. Higher house prices, falling wages. But it

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may be something significant. It maybe that the British people are

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starting to fall out of love with home-ownership and are more

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inclined to rent. Maybe they just cannot get a mortgage! But if those

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things are happening it may mean there is a cultural shift as well,

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forced by circumstances. White Iain Macleod in will be turning in his

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:05:04.:05:07.

I am here to teach. White Now, it was a cloudy Monday ten

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days ago when two young ethnic Chechens planted home-made bombs in

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the middle of cheering crowds of people. Three died, and over 260

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were injured at the finish line of the Boston marathon. There followed

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a manhunt, not out of place in a TV thriller, for the men whose grainy

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images had been caught on CCTV. At the Old Bailey today, three British

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men, including an ex-police community support officer and a

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Muslim convert, were jailed for preparing acts of terrorism. So

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just how safe are we, and what does the future hold? We turned to

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former Islamist, Maajid Nawaz, now an author who campaigns against

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radical Islam. This is his Take of They were shocking images, young

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men in Boston carrying backpacks into their own society but decided

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to maim and kill fellow citizens. Those images reminded us of what

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happened here on 7/7 at Russell Square and other places in London

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where equally integrated citizens decided to turn their backs on

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society. The question is what would have motivated these young men. I

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know because I spent 13 years inside an Islamist organisation and

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was imprisoned as a political prisoner in Egypt for attempting to

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overthrow the Egyptian government. I joined this group at 16 in Essex,

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having been born and raised there. There is no one identifiable cause

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for why these brothers turned against their own country, but

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there are a combination of factors. Being first generation Chechnyans,

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although they were in America, they suffered from an acute identity

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crisis and had to decide whether they belonged to their country of

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heritage or their adopted country. They chose to become Chechnyan.

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Having settled the identity question, the older brother decided

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to travel to his country of origin. It was there that he probably met

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charismatic recruiters, some of whom he watched online, and decided

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to shift once more from becoming Chechnyan to becoming a member of

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the global Islamist community. From that point, his struggle and fight

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became international, and his target became international. When

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America killed Osama Bin Laden they thought they had dealt with Al-

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Qaeda but what happened was that the nature of the beast changed.

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Al-Qaeda went from a global terrorist organisation to a global

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jihadist insurgency. That means Al- Qaeda has become a brand,

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sufficient to inspire young men in Boston in the US, and here, to

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associate with the brand and commit acts of terror without the need for

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direct operational command. I do not want to be alarmist and I

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say this with caution, but this is not the last time we will see such

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acts of terror on our streets in the capitals of Western countries.

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Battles and conflicts around the world will continue to divide the

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Al-Qaeda brand with the perfect tool an excuse for recruitment. And

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Syria has become the new battleground. According to counter-

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terrorism experts, some 500 young Muslim men from across Europe and

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from the UK have travelled to Syria to join their new battle and

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partake in what they perceive as a global warming between Islam and

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the West. Nobody has said it yet, but I will, Syria is looking

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increasingly like the new Afghanistan. If so, it will not be

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long until we see the blog back right here on our streets. -- the

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From the mean streets of Grimsby to our studio. Welcome to the

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programme. You finished by saying that we are going to see the

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effects on our streets. Why are you sure? I am not sure, but I am

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fearful, because our counter- terrorism experts have estimated

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that 100 Britons have travelled to Syria to join the so-called jihad.

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On top of that, some of them have died in the cause, meaning they are

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prepared to risk their lives. And some of them have targeted British

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journalists. In one case a British journalist was held hostage by

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people who had south London accents. I know that because I met a

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journalist when he returned. And I interviewed him, and he confirmed

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that he was held by people that spoke like us, and they shot at him

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and wounded him when he attempted to escape. That means that we

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should be fearful. There are people in Syria right now who have come

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from this country and are prepared to target fellow-citizens. You say

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that Syria is the new Afghanistan but we are not in Syria and we are

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not on the opposite side, as we were in Afghanistan. In a sense, we

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are on the same side. Both the jihadists and the British

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government want to see the end of Bashar Al-Assad. That logic would

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also apply to Chechnya. If somebody had been radicalised in the north

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Caucasus, you would think they would attack Russia, not America or

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Britain. But what happens is that when somebody becomes indoctrinated

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by the global jihadist ideology, the goal becomes global and the

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target becomes global. Any target is fair game? Not just any target

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but strategic targets, and Britain and America are strategic targets.

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Do you agree? Absolutely and completely. The fear is very real.

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On the other hand, you have to say that so far the security forces in

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the United States and in European countries have done pretty well.

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Quite a lot of plots have been foiled. One came to the Old Bailey

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today and was resolved with prison sentences. And there have been many

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more serious ones. And the fact that young men are travelling to

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Syria, Afghanistan or Pakistan at least gives something that the

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authorities can trace, because they can follow the movements and see

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who they are in contact with. The numbers might be large, and some of

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the people are being radicalised, but they may not be making these

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trips abroad, making them more difficult to follow. As the saying

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goes, you only have to be unlucky ones, and I suspect we will be

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unlucky again. For the moment, all praise to the security forces who

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have done an extremely good job in making sure we have not had deaths

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here since 7/7. Alan Johnson, you were a former Home Secretary, so

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you have had to deal with the intelligence assessments. Do you

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agree that the terrorist threat is getting more serious? Yes. I would

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question the point that the Americans believed that once they

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had dealt with Osama Bin Laden or that the problem of Al-Qaeda was

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over. When I was Home Secretary, the Quilliam Foundation and you and

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your colleague were becoming of great interest to the Americans

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because 9/11, the Americans thought it was an outside force attacking

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America. They did not believe they had a problem with Americans being

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radicalised. They were suddenly becoming interested in that when I

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was Home Secretary, and were very keen to talk to the Quilliam

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Foundation, who have done such good work there. The question about

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Syria is what to do about it, because some people take that

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analysis and say that Syria has started as a nationalist movement,

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and because they were not getting anywhere, because no other

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countries were intervening, the jihadists moved in. If that is an

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argument to say that we should intervene in Syria, I do not agree.

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If it is an argument to say that we should be aware of what Syria is

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doing, I hate to politicise the point of the Government, we hear

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today, are dropping the Communications Data Bill. Michael

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just talked about tracking where people are travelling, and this is

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not the time to be complacent about the terror threat. It has been

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called a snooper's charter. I saw it, and so does the Intelligence

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and Security Committee, as a major problem. We always had the ability

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with telephone calls and letters, because they were owned by the

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state. With the explosion of new methods of communication, they do

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not know, to the extent that they should, who is communicating with

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$:/STARTFEED. How do we view Al- Qaeda now, I viewed it as like a

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McDonald's, so many different parts to it where they take the name Al-

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Qaeda but it's a brand name, rather than a centralised organisation

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now? That's why I used the word global Jihadist insurgent because

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it's become a brand, the central command have weakened. I

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respectfully believe that what happens with the Americans after

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the killing of Bin Laden they felt the ideaology wouldn't have spread

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further. What we saw instead was the opposite. Al-Qaeda proper came

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to power in north Mali, they took over cities in south Yemen.

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Franchises joined them from Somalia and nienl ya, Shabab -- Nige that.

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Aye surprised the world by the assassination in Libya. Then we

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remember the attack at the gas plant in Nigeria. The idealogy of

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Jihadism has spread laterally and you no longer need directional

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command. So there is no central command and control now, like there

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was for 9/11 It's an inspiration. It finds itself in those parts of

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the world which are already pretty troubled like the Horn of Africa?

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When the troops withdraw, I think we'll witness a Taliban insurgent.

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The concern I have, although the command structure's weakened, the

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ideal of the idealogy has gained ground. It leads to the question -

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what is to be done? Indeed, what is to be done. I think recognising

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this as a debate means the solution doesn't lie in what Obama has been

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doing so far which is increasing what they call surgical drone

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strikes, because if you recognise the tart isn't the men but the

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ideas, the more men you take out with the collateral damage, you are

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giving strength to the ideas themselves that this is indeed

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somehow a war against Islam and Muslims. You agree with the Yemeni

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artist who testified before congress then? I think it was

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agreed that drone strikes are a counterproductive measure. Do you

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agree with that, Michael? It's become, by default, the main weapon

:16:35.:16:39.

of terrorism of the Obama administration? It has because it

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means Obama doesn't have to go to war so he doesn't have the

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political problems. It's a hard one because the drones are effective

:16:48.:16:51.

militarily. More or less whatever the West does, there is a narrative

:16:51.:16:57.

which is that the West is involved in an anti-Islamic campaign. By the

:16:57.:17:01.

way, if you are minded that way, you can put together a lot of

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different things and say western troops went into Iraq, Afghanistan,

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Libya, you know, it does add up to something in the end, doesn't it?

:17:10.:17:14.

If it's more decentralised, more small groups, lack of command and

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control at the centre, any attack is horrific, but the scale of

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Boston wasn't on the scale of 9/11 or even 7/7. Perhaps they don't

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have the same ability as before? Their operational ability has been

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affected because they are being relentlessly targeted. What I'm

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more concerned about is their ability to high jieck uprisings and

:17:36.:17:43.

innuens the agenda in the Middle East -- hijack uprisings and

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influence the agenda in the Middle East. We need to think about how we

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make the idealogy of Jihadism as unpopular as communism. We have to

:17:54.:17:57.

ask David Cameron about the generational struggle with these

:17:57.:18:01.

ideas and we are not going to see results in the next year or two.

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When you are faced with something like Syria, to finish on this, we

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have heard reports tonight British, European and American intelligence

:18:09.:18:12.

suggesting that chemical weapons may be used by the regime, but we

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are between a rock and a hard place because we would like to see the

:18:17.:18:22.

end of Mr Assad, but we don't want an Al-Qaeda-backed Government to

:18:22.:18:27.

take over. What do we do? We who controls the narrative controls the

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agenda. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't with Syria

:18:31.:18:34.

because somebody else is controlling the nah ti. We need to

:18:34.:18:38.

seize back the initiative and the narrative -- narrative. What would

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that mean? With Syria, I wouldn't say currently the solution is

:18:44.:18:47.

occupational invasion, but it would mean basically gaining the

:18:47.:18:50.

attention and popularising what we are doing for the democratic

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opposition and providing further support to them. Very interesting.

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Thank you very much. It's late, even babe station is

:18:59.:19:03.

winding down for the night and you have probably had enough of us

:19:03.:19:08.

already. Alan's laughing! We have one regular viewer whose loyalty

:19:08.:19:14.

cannot be questioned. Evening! Say hello to the wife. Glad you are

:19:14.:19:18.

hear, I don't know what we'd do without you these Thursday nights.

:19:18.:19:25.

If it's good enough for you and Mr Qatada, it's good enough for us.

:19:25.:19:30.

Waiting with perfect timing, the German comedy here to talk about

:19:30.:19:33.

the national myths, French for moths, that bind us all together.

:19:33.:19:37.

For those of you who believe any old nonsense, which is most of our

:19:37.:19:41.

viewers, head over to the Twitter and Fleecebook and if you are

:19:41.:19:45.

behind the times, don't get the good old interweb. It's no secret

:19:46.:19:50.

we like to flog a dead horse after we have drugged it of course, that

:19:50.:19:57.

seems to be the fashion, so with the economy barely spluttering into

:19:57.:20:05.

light, we sent our work experience slaves to find a story. No storm

:20:05.:20:10.

clouds gathering, not even a poorly organised pee up in a brewery, so

:20:10.:20:15.

we are left with no choice. We asked Matthew right to drive on to

:20:15.:20:20.

his vintage bike and rev the throttle slightly in a desperate

:20:20.:20:24.

attempt to demonstrate underpowered economic growth and give us his

:20:24.:20:34.
:20:34.:20:52.

This is my absolute pride and joy. A panther 600cc. I know she's got a

:20:52.:20:57.

few miles on the clock but she's 61, for heavens' sake. I'll tell you

:20:57.:21:01.

this, there's nothing like riding a British vintage motorcycle on a

:21:02.:21:06.

warm summer's day. When it comes to her handling, she

:21:06.:21:08.

certainly demonstrates more finesse than George Osborne, though of

:21:08.:21:13.

course he's in charge of driving our economy. GDP figures out

:21:13.:21:18.

earlier showed a 0.3% rate of growth which means the country has

:21:18.:21:22.

avoided a stomach-lurching triple dip recession. This is more

:21:22.:21:25.

politically than economically significant. It gives George a good

:21:26.:21:29.

news story and adds to his narrative that the economy is

:21:29.:21:32.

slowly spluttering into life. would say there are encouraging

:21:33.:21:37.

signs, we have the deficit down by a third, over a million new jobs

:21:37.:21:39.

have been created in the private sector, we are making progress but

:21:39.:21:44.

I've never pretended that this is going to be a quick process.

:21:44.:21:47.

I've got something in my eye! Talking of which, the Archbishop of

:21:47.:21:51.

Canterbury proved to be a major irritant for the Chancellor earlier

:21:51.:21:56.

this week. Was he saying that only an act of God can save the economy?

:21:56.:22:02.

I would argue that what we are in at the moment is not a recession

:22:02.:22:06.

but essentially some kind of depression. It therefore takes

:22:06.:22:12.

something very, very major to get us out of it in the same way as it

:22:12.:22:18.

took something very major to get us into it. Any ideas, George?

:22:18.:22:23.

Anything? Time for a pit stop! George made a quick stop himself

:22:23.:22:28.

this week after travelling north to continue the Government's fight

:22:28.:22:30.

against Scottish independence, announcing that if Scotland does

:22:30.:22:34.

vote to go it alone, they can't bank on hanging on to this. The

:22:34.:22:40.

usual, please, love... If we had a eurozone-style currency

:22:40.:22:44.

arrangement, that would beg all sorts of questions about economic

:22:44.:22:47.

risks, about why a foreign Government, which is what the rest

:22:47.:22:51.

of the UK would have become, would want to enter into this arrangement,

:22:51.:22:57.

why it would want to tie itself to the economic policies of the

:22:58.:23:01.

Scottish Government. So frankly it's unlikely that the arrangement

:23:01.:23:08.

could be agreed with the rest of the UK or would work.

:23:08.:23:11.

Nice one. Thank you. With every opinion poll showing Scotland won't

:23:11.:23:14.

vote for independence, you have to ask yourself, doesn't George have

:23:14.:23:18.

anything better to do with his time than to wind up our friends in the

:23:18.:23:22.

north. Oi, where's my cherry? Lovely. No wonder Alex Salmond

:23:22.:23:27.

didn't seem bothered. Whatever the Chancellor of the Exchequer says

:23:27.:23:34.

now, it's condition for his anxiety for people voting independence.

:23:34.:23:38.

What happens is economic, rather than political interest prevailing.

:23:38.:23:48.
:23:48.:23:52.

We say what's best for Scotland and Touch wood. I've always been a very

:23:52.:23:56.

safe and lucky rider so I've never seen the inside of A&E, which is

:23:56.:24:00.

probably just as well if you were to believe Ed Miliband.

:24:00.:24:05.

There is a crisis in A&E and it's no surprise he's cut the number of

:24:05.:24:10.

nurses, his NHS helpline is in crisis and he's wasting billions of

:24:10.:24:16.

pounds on a top down reorganisation that he promised wouldn't happen.

:24:16.:24:20.

The facts speak for themselves. The NHS is not safe in his hands.

:24:20.:24:26.

get your nicker bocker glories in a twist, Ed. The PM was having none

:24:26.:24:30.

of it. Let me give him some simple facts about what's happened in the

:24:30.:24:36.

NHS under this Government. 6,000 more doctors under this Government.

:24:36.:24:40.

7,000 fewer managers under this Government. A million more treated

:24:40.:24:45.

in A&E, half a million more day cases, mixed sex wards, commonplace

:24:45.:24:50.

under Labour, virtually abolished under this Government. Infection

:24:50.:24:55.

rates in the NHS at record low levels. Thank you very much, love.

:24:55.:25:03.

Lovely. Oi, get off my bike! My brother always trying to nick my

:25:03.:25:06.

seat. Feuding brothers, eh. Forget about

:25:06.:25:10.

the Milibands, there's been another fraternal tra that playing out in

:25:10.:25:14.

town after Boris's younger brother was appointed to head up Number

:25:14.:25:18.

Ten's policy unit. The appointment is supposed to help the public

:25:18.:25:28.
:25:28.:25:31.

connect with the people. Abu Qatada has rode back into town.

:25:31.:25:34.

Theresa May, like countless Home Secretaries before her, has been

:25:34.:25:39.

trying to deport him to Jordan, but the court told her that her latest

:25:39.:25:43.

bid failed. Theresa May wasted no time donning her leathers, revving

:25:43.:25:48.

up the engine and giving it her all, announcing a new legal commitment

:25:48.:25:53.

with Jordan. I believe the treaty we have agreed with Jordan once

:25:53.:25:55.

ratified by both Members of Parliament will finally make

:25:55.:25:59.

possible the deportation of Abu Qatada. I have warned the House

:25:59.:26:03.

before, even when the treaty is fully ratified, it will not mean

:26:03.:26:07.

Abu Qatada will be on a mane to Jordan within days. It's like

:26:07.:26:11.

ground hog day all over again. The public doesn't understand why the

:26:11.:26:15.

Government went send him on the first plane out of here, but then

:26:15.:26:19.

they see the sinister shadow cast by the European court.

:26:19.:26:29.
:26:29.:26:38.

I've got an idea. I'll take him on Matthew Wright at the Ace Cafe.

:26:38.:26:44.

Gillian tell joins us in our little cafe in Westminster. The Chancellor

:26:44.:26:49.

claims the growth figures show that the "Economy is beginning to heal"

:26:49.:26:54.

-- Gillian Tett. Is he right? probably not falling off a cliff,

:26:54.:27:00.

but there are signs of stablisation in places. I think you would give a

:27:00.:27:05.

chance for a B to B minus in terms of how the economy is performing.

:27:05.:27:10.

The saving grace is that most of Europe probably has a C minus, if

:27:10.:27:15.

not a D plus right now. Terrible figures coming out of Europe?

:27:15.:27:19.

Record unemployment in Spain and France, I mean astonishingly high

:27:19.:27:24.

levels of social pain over there. The newspapers pundits obsess about,

:27:24.:27:33.

is it up 0.3% or down 0.3%. Of course, the fact is the economy's

:27:33.:27:35.

largely flatlining, but it was symbolically important for the

:27:35.:27:38.

Government? It was. As were the borrowing figures where it shaded

:27:38.:27:43.

the right way, just. It doesn't alter the fact that, apart from

:27:43.:27:47.

Italy, out of G7 countries, where we have got the worst performance

:27:47.:27:56.

for getting back to our pre- recession level. We are 2.6% lower.

:27:56.:27:59.

Germany, Canada and the US are back where they were. The Chancellor

:27:59.:28:02.

would say that's because we had the biggest financial services industry

:28:02.:28:08.

as a proportion pof our GDP and we therefore took the biggest hit.

:28:08.:28:13.

That would be a fair point if it wasn't for the boom bust that

:28:13.:28:18.

George gave us in 2010. It was nothing to do with the banking

:28:18.:28:22.

crisis, nothing to do with the fact that we had the biggest financial

:28:22.:28:25.

services in the world, it was to do with the previous Government. I

:28:25.:28:30.

think he said we are now out of danger zone in 2010. It's obvious

:28:30.:28:35.

we weren't out of the danger zone. I don't know if you had a short

:28:35.:28:45.
:28:45.:28:45.

hand when you were a rookie journalist. You go up and down and

:28:45.:28:51.

across, in Pitman and it's a good way of capturing what is going on,

:28:51.:28:56.

because it flatlines. Britain was massively overleveraged with too

:28:56.:28:59.

much debt. Unfortunately, it's going to have to work through the

:28:59.:29:02.

debt and the chance of anything other than a lot of sluggish

:29:02.:29:07.

performances for quite a while is low. How important are the lack of

:29:07.:29:12.

growth figures? Are the voters taking note of this? Are the people

:29:12.:29:17.

taking note of this, or are they more concerned that living

:29:17.:29:22.

standards are still squeezed? I would have thought the more

:29:22.:29:25.

significantly electoral figure is that the earning figures in March

:29:25.:29:35.
:29:35.:29:41.

showed a 0% rise on February of The markets are taking note. The

:29:41.:29:45.

crucial battle for the Government is continuing to finance a new debt

:29:46.:29:51.

at around 2%, as opposed to 5%, as the Italians and Spanish are paying.

:29:51.:29:57.

That is because the Bank of England is buying most of it. We can print

:29:57.:30:02.

money and devalue our currency, terrific flexibility. To emphasise

:30:02.:30:06.

the point about Spain, more than 6 million unemployed, a country

:30:06.:30:10.

smaller than ours. That figure was terrifying because it reminded me

:30:10.:30:14.

of my history at university, 6 million unemployed when Hitler came

:30:14.:30:23.

to power in Germany. It is quite astounding. Mr Miliband is not

:30:23.:30:28.

without his problems as well. It is interesting that Labour is still in

:30:28.:30:31.

some difficulties even though hardly any economic indicators are

:30:31.:30:36.

going the right way for the Government. What did you make of

:30:36.:30:43.

Unite's Len McCluskey's attack? had my own and spat with him a few

:30:43.:30:49.

weeks ago. Renaissance, it is good for Ed Miliband, because part of

:30:49.:30:54.

the portrayal of Ed Miliband as the only one, that he was the prisoner

:30:54.:31:04.
:31:04.:31:04.

of Len McCluskey and Unite. So is it a set-up? I do not think so.

:31:04.:31:08.

Coming up to local government elections, it is an extraordinary

:31:08.:31:13.

intervention to attack two people, Douglas Alexander and Jim Murphy,

:31:14.:31:19.

both loyal colleagues who have not done anything that I have seen to

:31:19.:31:24.

stir up disunity. Has Alex Salmond got himself into a bit of a mess by

:31:24.:31:27.

saying Scotland will become an independent country but it will

:31:27.:31:33.

retain Monetary Union with the rest of the UK, in the sense that what

:31:33.:31:38.

the eurozone shows is that monetary union without fiscal or political

:31:38.:31:42.

union does not work? It is an argument that is moving away from

:31:42.:31:46.

him. It would normally be an argument of obscurity that the

:31:46.:31:50.

public will not understand, but at the moment they will be able to.

:31:50.:31:54.

George Osborne is playing a political game, but it is a

:31:54.:31:58.

political game with a common sense. Underneath it. If we imagine the

:31:58.:32:03.

Scottish government pursuing the policy is the SNP favour, high

:32:03.:32:07.

public spending, high taxation, high levels of deficit, it is

:32:07.:32:10.

difficult to see how that can exist within a single currency which is

:32:10.:32:17.

shared with the UK, where the UK is pursuing different fiscal policies.

:32:17.:32:21.

I could not agree more. If I was Alex Salmond, the last thing I

:32:21.:32:25.

would want to start talking about is a virtual currency union, given

:32:25.:32:30.

what is happening in Europe. It will be hard to pull that off.

:32:30.:32:35.

may be blowing up in his face, but he is saying, we can have

:32:35.:32:38.

independence and not much would change. We will still have the

:32:38.:32:43.

Queen, armed services and we will still be in Europe, but we will not

:32:43.:32:48.

have the Euro. The original policy was independence within Europe with

:32:48.:32:54.

the euro. A few years ago Alex Salmond was sniffy about sterling.

:32:54.:32:59.

He used to say the Bank of England was only concerned about the South

:32:59.:33:04.

of England. I thought the message was excellent but I worry about the

:33:04.:33:08.

messenger. Danny Alexander was there, but maybe he was the one to

:33:08.:33:12.

convey the message, given the way that George Osborne's personality

:33:12.:33:19.

goes down. There are more pandas in Edinburgh Sudan there are MPs in

:33:19.:33:28.

Scotland. -- in Edinburgh Zoo. big story of the day, Boris

:33:28.:33:31.

Johnson's brother in Number 10. Not many people have heard of Joe

:33:31.:33:38.

Johnson but he was your colleague at the Financial Times. We have a

:33:38.:33:44.

rich dynasty of Johnson's having gone through our ranks. He is a man

:33:44.:33:48.

of brilliant brains and equally strong self-confidence and opinions.

:33:48.:33:52.

I look forward to seeing how he will get on with his colleagues at

:33:52.:33:57.

Number 10. I think it is encouraging that those close to

:33:57.:34:01.

David Cameron, people that say that David Cameron is surrounded by old

:34:02.:34:06.

Loughtonians, don't you think this appointment proves it? Hold on, he

:34:06.:34:12.

went to Eton and then Oxford. Oh, and he was in the Bullingdon club,

:34:12.:34:18.

too. That is good. Somebody needs to get a grip of the machine,

:34:18.:34:23.

Number 10. If Joe Johnson ran the Lexa Kong, he has the right

:34:23.:34:30.

intellectual calibre. Let's hope he has the right skills. I was the

:34:30.:34:34.

head of that as well and it is a nightmare job, trying to organise a

:34:34.:34:37.

group of self-confident and cocky people in getting them to agree on

:34:37.:34:41.

something. If he could do that at the Financial Times, Number 10

:34:41.:34:47.

should be a walk in the park. Abu Qatada saga continues. It was

:34:47.:34:52.

around when you were Home Secretary. It could be that the deal with

:34:52.:34:58.

Jordan is again changer. Can we also agree that the idea of Britain

:34:58.:35:02.

doing a temporary exit, getting rid of him and coming back in,

:35:02.:35:09.

squadrons of pigs would be flying? It would be illegal. We did it

:35:09.:35:12.

during the Northern Ireland troubles, to get internment without

:35:12.:35:17.

trial, because there was a national issue. Article 15 of the convention

:35:17.:35:21.

allows you to do this where there is a strict necessity. To try to do

:35:21.:35:25.

it, and to then breach the UN convention on torture, which is

:35:25.:35:32.

very important, it would be illegal, so it is a non starter. That

:35:32.:35:36.

Government is not brave enough to leave the European Convention on

:35:36.:35:41.

Human Rights even temporarily. I think it was shut up. We have run

:35:41.:35:46.

out of time. Good to see you again. Now, there are many myths

:35:46.:35:50.

associated with a show like This Week, the origins of which are lost

:35:50.:35:54.

in the mists of BBC time. But there are some things even we wouldn't

:35:54.:35:57.

dare lie to you about. For example, Molly the dog really does live with

:35:58.:36:03.

me. Alan "AJ" Johnson really does choose his own shirts. And Michael

:36:03.:36:07.

Portillo really does warm up before every show with 500 naked star

:36:07.:36:13.

jumps, whilst shouting "Who da man? You da man!" into his dressing room

:36:13.:36:19.

mirror. Cross my heart. But not everyone is so truthful, so we've

:36:19.:36:22.

decided to test the theory, and put national myths in this week's

:36:22.:36:32.
:36:32.:36:41.

Saint George's dragon slaying myth appeared the least ridiculous part

:36:41.:36:48.

of the day. England's other less saintly George chose the same day

:36:48.:36:51.

to warm the Scots that if the myth says they like to hang onto their

:36:51.:36:57.

pennies, they should think twice about giving up their pounds. So,

:36:57.:37:02.

are these national myths essential, binding us together as a society,

:37:02.:37:06.

just as a currency does economically? Does it matter if the

:37:06.:37:12.

American Dream is sometimes more than fiction? If the Germans

:37:12.:37:18.

actually have a sense of humour? Maybe French men are rubbish in bed.

:37:18.:37:25.

At least we know where the truth ends and the myth begins. As anyone

:37:25.:37:34.

who has witnessed us at Annabel's can surely attest.

:37:34.:37:42.

We are joined by Henning Wehn. Is it not the case that some national

:37:42.:37:49.

myths are true? Take German football teams this week. Amazing,

:37:49.:37:59.
:37:59.:38:00.

efficient game winners. Amazing. The Polish striker scored four

:38:00.:38:07.

goals. Amazing! It is very good because Germany were not doing very

:38:07.:38:12.

well in football. We have not won a major tournament for 17 years. We

:38:12.:38:21.

have not been to a final for 36 months. They play a very efficient

:38:21.:38:26.

kind of football. At the moment, they have not won anything for many

:38:26.:38:31.

years. At the moment, you are watching and you think, are they

:38:31.:38:36.

really the teams from the bond as leader? It looks good if you are

:38:36.:38:46.
:38:46.:38:47.

watching England. Or Scotland. Scotland still play football? Some

:38:47.:38:52.

of your material is based on myths about Germans and the British. But

:38:52.:38:59.

are they true, or do you dwell on them to get a laugh? Truth is just

:38:59.:39:04.

repetition of lies, isn't it? If you say it over and over again,

:39:04.:39:09.

finally people will believe it. was a famous German who said that.

:39:09.:39:19.
:39:19.:39:23.

Who are you talking about? I think There is always a grain of truth in

:39:23.:39:29.

them, I think. But over time it becomes exaggerated and gets a life

:39:29.:39:35.

of its own. Like Germans not having a sense of humour, for example.

:39:35.:39:39.

What was a myth about Britain that you hold and turned out not to be

:39:39.:39:45.

true when you came? I did not really have an idea of what Britain

:39:45.:39:51.

was like. My whole idea of Britain was essentially based on TV adverts.

:39:51.:39:58.

I expected everyone to live in castles and go fox-hunting.

:39:58.:40:08.

what is your point? That is only the Cabinet. Someone said David

:40:08.:40:15.

Cameron thought Downton Abbey was reality TV. Our national myths used

:40:15.:40:22.

for? I would suggest the American national myth of the American Dream,

:40:22.:40:26.

anybody can get on, particularly for an immigrant nation, that is a

:40:27.:40:33.

narrative for immigrants, isn't it? That is the best example. Quite a

:40:33.:40:36.

lot of British myths are unhelpful. One British myth is that we have

:40:36.:40:44.

not been invaded since the 1066. Actually, we were invaded in 1216

:40:44.:40:52.

and 1688. In 1688 we were conquered by a Dutchman. But I think the idea

:40:52.:40:57.

that we have not been invaded since the 1066 informs much of our view

:40:57.:41:03.

of the world, and it happens not to be true. So national myths can be

:41:03.:41:07.

dangerous or misleading? Yes, the myth that Conservatives can always

:41:07.:41:15.

run the economy well... I am glad you are not being party-political.

:41:15.:41:19.

I used to think German-trained ran on time, but they discovered they

:41:19.:41:29.
:41:29.:41:29.

do not. -- German trains. That started with reunification in 1990.

:41:29.:41:36.

Until then, spot-on. We liked nothing better than telling stories

:41:36.:41:41.

about other nationalities. The oldest Hackney joke about the

:41:41.:41:47.

Germans from the Brits is about the bath towels by the swimming pool,

:41:48.:41:52.

there from 6am in the morning. What do the Germans think when they hear

:41:52.:41:59.

this trotted out again and again? They do not really here it. It is a

:41:59.:42:04.

very insular rumour in the UK about foreigners. It is the Brits talking

:42:04.:42:08.

to themselves and no one gets it. What is the biggest myth that

:42:08.:42:14.

Germans have about the Brits? tricky. There are not many myths or

:42:14.:42:18.

stereotypes about Britain, because of the class divide. On the one

:42:18.:42:24.

hand you have the idea of everyone living in a castle. Then you go on

:42:24.:42:29.

holiday to Spain and you see the Brits holidaying abroad. Those two

:42:29.:42:33.

stereotypes, you cannot get them into one. That is a result, because

:42:33.:42:41.

of the class divide. You do not want those who go to Spain going to

:42:41.:42:47.

Germany. Know, you do not want them. What is the biggest myth about

:42:47.:42:53.

Britain? The -- probably that we are self-effacing, whereas really

:42:53.:42:59.

we are quite immodest and proud of what we do. I think the invasion

:42:59.:43:08.

one. The biggest myth about Britain? The idea of tolerance.

:43:08.:43:14.

think that is a myth? What is tolerance? Essentially, something

:43:14.:43:21.

you really dislike. I do not think you should be allowed to say that!

:43:22.:43:25.

Thank you very much. That's it for tonight, but not for

:43:25.:43:29.

us, because we're off to Annabel's to confirm our total lack of

:43:29.:43:31.

preparations for next week's potentially disastrous live

:43:31.:43:33.

audience show. Michael and Alan will finally come face-to-face with

:43:33.:43:37.

their stalking public. Their stalking public will finally come

:43:37.:43:42.

face to face with their satin shirts. And Molly the dog will no

:43:42.:43:47.

doubt cock a leg on a fuse box and throw us all off air. But we leave

:43:47.:43:50.

you tonight with public enemy number one, a highly dangerous

:43:50.:43:53.

individual who must be enjoying sending the Home Secretary, Theresa

:43:53.:43:57.

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